You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist

Swell AI Transcript: 102. Justine Deterling FINAL.mp3
Justine Deterling: Normalizing, quote unquote, sex changes on growing children should raise red flags for anybody in our population with common sense. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't have common sense. They've been pretty susceptible to being taken in that this is a good thing. But most of us thinking logically realize how dangerous that is.
SPEAKER_01: You must be some kind of therapist.

Stephanie Winn: Today I'm speaking with Justine Detterling. She is the founder of Gender Health Query, a watchdog organization for the LGB community, and the creator of a resource called Parent Educator Resource, Scrutinizing Gender Education in the Public Schools, Incorporating Evidence, and Balancing Rights. She has some great resources on her websites for parents and educators and those concerned about the gender crisis facing today's vulnerable youth, and specializing in how this is impacting the LGB community. Justine, welcome. It's great to have you here.

Justine Deterling: It's great to be here. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

Stephanie Winn: So we'll talk about a few things today. We'll talk about this resource that you created, which I think is important for listeners of this podcast who are concerned about this issue and who are looking for practical help, as well as what Gender Health Query does, how you got into it, and then a little bit about the misunderstandings that are in your mind, and you know, I agree with this and a lot of listeners I think will agree with this, perpetuating harm against LGBT people through the counseling profession. So first, tell us a little bit about what this resource is and who it's for.

Justine Deterling: This resource is an informational resource, primarily. It's more of a hearts and minds document than something designed to change policy by arguing to bureaucrats. So it has more of an activist tone, perhaps, than a couple of other parent guides that are out there regarding schools that, for example, Transgender Trend did in the UK. And we wanted the freedom to frame this ideology in not such a positive way. I think it is well-researched and it's argued firmly, but compassionately. And it's mostly to put arguments in front of people from an obviously secular perspective, from a pro-gay rights organization, to help break apart the myth that it's only Matt Walsh or Ben Shapiro or people on the right that do not like what's happening, and that conservatives are the only people that are very alarmed about gender identity activism. It's very hard to break apart that narrative in the United States. They've been much more successful in the UK, where opposing gender activist extremism has mostly been accomplished by liberal women and LGBT people. It has 10 myths and these are propaganda myths that are being promoted by gender slash trans activism. And it's important to start to argue with supporters of this, why these narratives are false and why you have to really look under the cover and it's complicated. And we try to lay out these arguments in a straightforward manner.

Stephanie Winn: And so if your project is successful, who will end up reading this document?

Justine Deterling: This document will be particularly useful for parents that are probably already informed and don't like what is going on. And we would like people to help us share this resource with people who are uninformed. The hardcore ideologues will not be swayed, but perhaps school counselors, people in PTA meetings, some people on school boards, people that actually inform policy, if you put this document in front of them, it is just another sort of pecking at the narrative because they might see something on the news that people don't like this, or they might get a whiff of, oh, it's just this conservative activist organization that doesn't like it. But if they see one more thing in front of them, I think it starts to break down the shell that people have around them that this is unquestionably good. So we would like people to share this with school officials. So for example, the way I would use this, say you see something insane on Lids of TikTok. And I don't know the opinions of the woman who runs Lids of TikTok. I don't know if I would agree with everything that she says, but the things that she circulates are clearly insane in some cases. So I would take our resource and I would email it to all the relevant policy people from that school and say, there are many LGB people that do not support this behavior and here are the reasons why. And a lot of people, I think, feel helpless. in the onslaught of this extremist and insane behavior and very ideological behavior, and we would like something at people's fingertips that they can fire off and actually direct towards specific people. Because there needs to be a pushback and it needs to be public. And there needs to be LGB people opposing this and also people who have gender dysphoria that don't like this as well.

Stephanie Winn: This seems like a resource developed for a specific situation that a lot of parents find themselves in, which is like, I know that my kid is being misinformed at school, but I don't want to be that lone person sticking out like a sore thumb, making a complaint and, you know, potentially turning school administrators against me or making them think that my kid must come from this so-called transphobic household and that my kid needs rescuing from me. And a lot of parents want to feel like they're not alone in sounding the alarm. So being able to point to an organization like yours, and provide a resource that was written by someone else that specifically addresses the myths that are fueling what's going on in schools, seems like a really valuable resource for a lot of situations that come up for people. So before we delve into the 10 myths that is one of the components of your document. Tell us a little bit about how you ended up founding Gender Health Query and what the goals of the organization are.

Justine Deterling: Yes, I will do that. And I would like to make one more point about the point of the resource that I think is very important. We are in a widespread culture war. And having this online is part of that culture war. And I am a former exclusive Democratic voter, et cetera. And left-wing organizations and mainstream media and all of those entities are very captured in a very toxic way of approaching this issue. So for example, you have organizations such as the ACLU, going after whistleblowers. You have the Southern Poverty Law Center who is attacking people who are questioning, quote, gender affirming care, unquote. And they are prevaricating and they are misrepresenting the facts in order to completely demonize people who have problems with this. And they're doing that to destroy their careers, destroy their lives, gang political power. They're ideologically possessed. So having this document online is just part of that sort of informational battle that is going on. And I think people have to push back on what's going on. And I've really realized I've always been afraid of the far right and identity politics in terms of extreme racist and nationalistic viewpoints. But on the extreme left, which has actually gained a lot of mainstream power, there's something else that's equally dangerous. That's a mirror of that. And that's completely demonizing people with opposing opinions to the point of dehumanizing them. Using language that risks bringing abuse upon those people. And it's a type of ideological danger that's as much of a risk as say something like religious nationalism. We're getting attacked that way other parent groups are getting attacked that way. I don't know every opinion of Moms for liberty, but the way they frame this issue is to make people Who oppose what's going on in schools? seem evil and making people seem evil when they're not or they have principled concerns or they have things that we need to talk about or debate is disruptive So sorry about my little speech about that, but I want to frame this in the context of this being a wider culture war.

Stephanie Winn: And it's very psychologically destructive. It's destructive to relationships and to mental health. I just recently received a really, really, really nasty email from someone who had been one of my oldest friends until a few years ago, a friend from childhood. And, you know, we'd gotten along and stayed in touch actually more than most people from my childhood until some woke nonsense came up. And he said that – it was actually back when I was starting my podcast and I was chatting with him about being a potential guest. And he said he wanted to talk about something about like race and white feminism. And I was – I said something like in an email like, I'm actually more aligned with John McWhorter's thoughts on this. I said something like that. And that just sparked this, like, series of nasty emails a few years ago to which I decided not to respond. And it had been a source of sadness for me, but I hadn't done anything about it, because I'm just like, well, I lost an old friend to wokeness, and there's no reaching someone like this. And then I thought he'd moved on with his life, and I got an email from him just the other day. And it was this, like, whiplash of, how are you? How's your mom? I love you. mixed with, are you still subscribing to those disgusting far-right beliefs? And it's like, I've been labeled far-right so many times now that it actually makes me question Does anything I've been told about the far-right exist? Because I've been called far-right, and I actually want out of the culture wars. Like, I'm tired. I just want to focus on my health and get back to my hobbies. I like to be a really peaceful and cozy person. And, you know, there's so many things I just don't care about when it comes to politics, but this is something that has been so divisive. And, you know, that email was hurtful to receive, but it was also just proof of the utter madness of the far left on this issue, the fact that all this time has passed, and he never thought to square his beliefs of, you know, holding a belief that his old friend, Stephanie is fundamentally a good person. And then contrasting that with knowing that his old friend, Stephanie also questions gender ideology and some of the race stuff like that, that there's, there's no growth mentality of maybe I can question something that I believe to be true, to make my cognitive dissonance makes sense. You know, instead, it's like just this doubling and tripling down on everyone who doesn't agree with me must be demonic and horrible and vile and evil. So yeah, that's that's my most recent personal experience of witnessing the destructive power of this ideology. And, you know, in this email, he was also mentioning that, like, he's about to get married, and that his mom has dementia and stuff like this. And I'm thinking, so You're about to get married and your mom has dementia and this is how you're spending your time? You're spending your time, like, trolling and attacking an old friend? Like, this can't be good for anyone in your life for you to be spending your energy this way. So yeah, it is really destructive. That's my little tangent on that.

Justine Deterling: Yeah, that was all very relevant information. You dropped out a couple of times, so I hope all of that got recorded because that's exactly what's going on. And there are a lot of people of that thinking who are in education to the point that I think it's a crisis, to be honest. I don't understand why liberal-leaning people think that there's my opinion and fascism. That's it. There's a lot of people like that. I don't think it was like that as much 20, 30 years ago. I was in pretty hard left circles because I was involved in environmental activism. And I never saw quite this level of hatred and demonization. So I think that that's gotten worse, even though some of it's always been there. But yes, it's my opinion or fascism. And that's why a lot of this thinking has to be stopped when children are being exposed to it. It's really, it's an existential crisis. I really want to state that as clearly as possible. I really think that we have to stop what's going on in schools.

Stephanie Winn: Well, I'll just add to that, that, you know, I was also in very far left circles more than 20 years ago as a teenager. And, and I did see that type of thinking that I now recognize as narcissistic and, you know, developmentally it's excusable that I had such a self-centered worldview at that time to think that I had figured everything out at 16 and anyone who didn't agree with me was stupid or evil. That's excusable for a 16-year-old to think. And I feel like that's part of what makes me good at parent coaching because I understand the mind of an immature teenager. I was one. But to see that the The mentality that I subscribe to as part of this fringe little circle of far left. I mean, I was like anarchist, you know, I was marching in the black block with a face mask when I was when I was like 15 years old, to see how much that mentality has proliferated and taken over society is just like, Oh, gosh, I almost feel like it's my own karma or my fate in life to somehow see that the silly, stupid things I did as a troubled youth, I now see the consequences of those things magnified in society. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no, don't let troubled teens take over society. And don't let anyone with the mentality of a troubled teen be making these decisions. Right.

Justine Deterling: largely what's happening with gender as well.

Stephanie Winn: So let's get to it then. Tell us about Gender Health Query.

Justine Deterling: Do you want to know how I got into being concerned about all of this stuff before I talk about that? Because that happened later. I was researching the dangers around pediatric medical transition and absorbing that information for a few years before founding Gender Health Query in 2019. Should I start from the beginning? Sure. So in about 2015, I just wanted to have a little relationship blog about lesbian relationships. There's certain specific things that go on in lesbian relationships. There are high divorce rates in lesbian relationships. They're not the only population that has high divorce rates. So I'm not trying to diss my own population. We're not the only population with that problem, but I wanted to just talk about that. Like, how do you have healthy relationships and go over research? So I got, after not really paying attention, like most Gen X gay men and lesbians. I'm specifically, I'm a gay-leaning bisexual. That's what my identity is, but I'm married to a woman. And so I didn't really know any of this was going on. I I got married and was living in the suburbs, like a lot of people my age. And so I started getting involved in LGBTQ plus identity politics just as a part of that. And I started to be pretty concerned about what I saw pretty quickly. And back in 2015, there was something called the drop the T petition that was started by a gay man. And all of the issues that you talk about, that Matt Walsh talks about, all of that was laid out by these gay people in 2015. And there was a lot of backlash against this petition. But they listed problems like there's going to be an increase in assaults and creepy behavior in women's spaces. It may have touched on the sports, I'm not sure. They're sort of taking over gay rights groups and lesbian rights groups to push this agenda, even though it's not really our issue. And the most concerning thing to me was the medicalization of children. Because anyone who's been to gay bars or drag shows or seen the movie Paris is Burning knows that there's a very blurry line between a very gender nonconforming homosexual and a homosexual transsexual, which are the same sex attracted people who transition. And so normalizing, quote unquote, sex changes on growing children should raise red flags for anybody in our population with common sense. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't have common sense. So they've been pretty susceptible to being taken in that this is a good thing. But most of us thinking logically realize how dangerous that is. I started to delve into it. I bought the suicide narrative. I decided I'd have to accept that they're going to essentially be inflicting medical damage on pre-gay and lesbian youth if it's going to save quote-unquote trans kids from suicide. Now, years later, I am completely against medicalizing anyone under age. I don't think it's good for anybody, but definitely I don't think anyone under the age of 18 should be being medicalized. I think it's a human rights crime. I've read almost all the relevant research. I've been to gender clinician conferences myself, I have emailed hundreds of people about this in LGBTQ organizations. I've emailed Division 44 at the APA, begging them literally practically on my hands and knees to care about the extent of the damage that this could do. And here we are years later, still having this argument and battle, but my evolution went from this may be necessary to being opposed to it. I started Gender Health Query in 2019. It has tons of pages of information. There are 17 topics. There's lots of quotes and information on desistance, medical side effects, age of consent, the increase in females, nature nurture studies on homosexuality and trans identities. activist extremism, the effects of gender ideology and queer theory on the minds of quote-unquote queer youth, rights conflicts. It's very extensive, what we cover. And it was mostly set up as an informational resource because in 2019, there weren't as many organized gay, lesbian, bisexual projects to argue the dangers of this. And now I want to move forward more towards public activism, and this schools project is part of it. And this project supports parental rights because we have to acknowledge that even though there's been abuse, and we've seen it, most gay and lesbian people have friends who've been abused by their family. So we understand this idea of having concerns for dysphoric kids and their parents because we've seen abusive parents. We've seen homeless youth. We know all that exists, but there's certain things going on with the online community and in radical activism in urban centers that are making it such that you can't trust that these young people are going to run into the arms of a beautiful glitter family. There is sexual grooming in these spaces. There's medical transition grooming in these spaces. So choosing now between supporting parental rights and that, If you're gay or lesbian listening to this, you shouldn't think that that's an easy choice right now. It's not so Real true abuse of children needs to be very specifically defined in these school settings before the government and teachers get involved in processes that are going to lead to medicalizing growing adolescence and Destroying parental rights or even taking the young people out of the home

Stephanie Winn: Well, on the subject of parental rights versus abuse, I think most people would agree that when it comes to a term like abuse, there's a spectrum between, you know, a childhood that was typically for the most part safe, but in which, you know, a couple of minor traumas may have occurred or, you know, a time that a parent was trying to grab their kid to stop them from doing something unsafe and grabbed him a little too hard and scared them. You know, there's there's a spectrum from things that are easily overcome or repaired in terms of the rupture of the parent-child bond, all the way towards situations where a child could actually arguably be considered safer being on the streets than in that home. That's a huge spectrum. And just like we've seen diagnostic overshadowing – not just overshadowing, I mean overexpansion the over-diagnosis of certain conditions, and the self-diagnosis of a lot of conditions. I think there's also an over-diagnosis and self-diagnosis of coming from an abusive family. And I see this in the families that I provide consulting services for, where the parents coming to me are concerned about their children. They're coming to me because they want to know how they can communicate better in the hopes of reaching their child, in the hopes of helping them desist before they do something really destructive to their bodies. you know, it seems very clear from what I can see that there are a lot of youth involved in the gender cult who have convinced themselves that they've been abused because that's what's trendy amongst their friends, because that allows them to subscribe to this victim-oppressor narrative, and I've met families that have done their best to raise their children in safe and loving homes and where the kids have still turned against them and said, just like all of my friends, I come from horribly abusive parents. And in my mind, it's really insulting to people who have actually been abused for people who generally come from safe and loving households to claim that. But it's such a trend nowadays that I don't think that anyone can take at face value, unfortunately, what someone means when they say, I've been abused. Now, does that mean that that abuse victims don't deserve safety and justice? No, of course they do. It's just that that word has lost meaning at this point until until we define further what exactly is meant by abuse.

Justine Deterling: We addressed that very specifically in our parent educator resource, one of the myths. And There is a list of why determining actual abuse in this particular context of what is going on now is very difficult to determine.

Stephanie Winn: I love sleep. Sound sleep is a crucial foundation of good mental and physical health, from mood and concentration to metabolism and cellular repair. And I sleep very well thanks to my Eight Sleep Pod Pro cover. My side of the bed is programmed to be warm when I get in and cool down to a neutral temperature in the middle of the night so I don't wake up overheated like I used to. How would you customize your bed temperature? Visit 8sleep.com and use promo code SUMTHERAPIST to take up to $200 off your purchase. Even if they're already running another sale, this code will get you an additional $50 off. Eight Sleep currently ships not only within the USA, but also to Canada, the UK, select countries in the European Union, and Australia. Thanks for considering purchases that support the show.

Justine Deterling: Okay, so I'm going to go over some points I've written down why it is reasonable to call what's going on a cult dynamic. I am not calling gender dysphoric people a cult. And I want to make that clear. I think there are some examples of some cultures where I think people who are extremely gender nonconforming are pretty well integrated, such as in Samoa. And I think there are other ways to approach very gender nonconforming people and people that have serious, even dysmorphias and issues around their gender. So I want to make that clear. But this particular cultural dynamic that's going on in this time and place is definitely a cult dynamic, in my opinion. And I think it's important to start to be willing to state that. I think we need more clear language and more clear opposition that is calmly explained and efforts to walk people through the logical process, why what is going on is so toxic. So everyone calls things they don't like a cult these days. Far-right people are cult, left-wing people are cult, Fox News watchers are a cult. And that's true in the sense that people are very attached to their ideological positions, and they often ignore rationality to be loyal to their tribe. That's just human nature. So human nature is cult-like. And I just want to acknowledge that. But let's talk about what's going on with trans activism specifically. And I've written some things down because I don't want to miss anything. So gender activism and ideology and the way it's influencing young people and the culture in general is a diffuse cult. It's not like there is a malignant, grandiose narcissist at the helm of it. But people with those traits do control friend circles. They control LGBTQ organizations. So there are little mini fiefdoms of malignant narcissistic people that are sort of running and controlling these friend groups. And they are influencing the nicer people that go along to get along, people that maybe don't even have gender dysphoria, but they're in an educational setting or an LGB. TQ organization. So instead of cults fulfill an emotional need, and instead of like, just wanting to have a belief system or wanting to have community, all of that's true for these young people who have gender dysphoria. But there's also the body dysmorphia itself is fueling the dynamic, that body hatred is fueling the sort of more cultish dynamic, the personality disorders that you find in these populations, are also fueling that. So it's not just a charismatic figure, it's the internal issues that are fueling the ideology itself. It has a transformational narrative and you've seen them. It's almost baptismal. Transition is almost baptismal. You see the YouTube videos. They are touting the transformational euphoria that happens with the medical transition. It enforces rituals, pronoun signatures. pronoun check-ins. So there's sort of rituals that are performed around it. There are, it's an ego-theistic belief system. That's not my term. Somebody named Candace Jackson, who's a lesbian lawyer, center-right person who opposes this, used that term. I think ego-theism is an excellent term for this. It is a quasi-religion with the gender spirit being very important. And it's so holy The gender identity is so holy that you're putting six foot five males on basketball teams that are so huge that you could literally cause somebody to wind up in a wheelchair. So that's how much the identity has to be respected. And it's also, it love bombs, the people who are in it. It emotionally manipulates people with false propaganda and information to get them to go along with it. It's very tyrannical. It's authoritarian. We see that people's lives get destroyed for even questioning it. It actively encourages people to cut ties with their parents by demonizing their parents, by demonizing their parents' genuine concern for their child's well-being as somehow evil. It ostracizes non-believers. People can detransition, but they better not talk about having had a bad experience or they will be abused. It has a histrionic narrative of suicide and murder that we also cover in our guide. The suicide issue is mischaracterized and there is no trans murder epidemic, but it's highly effective in emotionally manipulating people. It forced teams with women and LGBT people in ways that parasitize and exploit those communities. And that doesn't mean I think friendship with people with gender dysphoria is wrong. I want people to be friends. I will invite anybody over to my house who I like as a person, but as a activist movement, it's an exploitative movement of women and gay people who are now force teamed onto agendas that hurt them, like destroying women's sports, putting sex offenders in women's jail, medicalizing children who might be gay, turning more people against gay marriage because it's now attached to this thing that actually has nothing to do with gay marriage. So there's that. It turns away from very disturbed motivations and pretends that it's not happening. So I would say chemically induced breast milk in males feeding babies. you have people coming out defending that practice, which is highly disturbing if you know what anatomical autogynephilia is, which is a paraphilic compulsion to actually physiological autogynephilia would be the correct word. Female body processes are eroticized by some males who transition. So that's disturbed behavior for people who know what's going on. People are promoting it as healthy and wonderful and affirming. So some detransistors have said when they stop hormones, they're peers rejected them merely for stopping the hormones. I'm not saying all trans people act like that, but in some cases just saying, I have to go off of testosterone because my health is being damaged was enough for them to get shunned from the group. It violates people's free thought and free speech. It acts like a happy, clappy self-help cult. Like think of somebody in a hotel convention center with all these bullet points about how they're going to save the world. I'm sure there's Est or Nexium or these other things that they sound wonderful and they sound great. And you start peeling back the layers and you start seeing some dark things that are actually going on. But everyone who's doing it thinks that they're saving the world. That's why this is in schools. So that's why it has so much power. And this has more power in some ways than Scientology. Google is influenced by it. Probably Google AI is probably doing the bidding of this ideology. Huge organizations are smearing people's character. The Democratic Party is spreading misinformation to the public. This whole issue has wider ramifications for our culture. So I know that was kind of long. I hope it was useful. But I think people need to start specifically articulating how bad this is and why.

Stephanie Winn: It's really good. I love how you articulated that. That it's a diffuse cult without a particular leader, but that there are all these sort of people with personality disorder traits at the center of a lot of different peer groups and friend groups. I want to add to that.

Justine Deterling: Can I just say one thing on that? Just one thing on that before you do. About the little narcissistic groups. I created that list, but that point was influenced by, I think it's Laura Becker. She made that point and I thought it was a really great point because I'm like, oh, there's no malignant. I always thought it was cult-like, but I'm like, there's no malignant narcissist at the helm, but there are like little, little ones everywhere. And that was a really great point that she made. So I just, I'd like to give credit where credit is due on that point.

Stephanie Winn: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Laura's great. It's my observation working with, as I do one-on-one or one-on-two with parents, as I hear in depth about the nature of what they're struggling with with their young people, that there is a parallel process between the development of trans ideology and the development of personality disorder traits. In my mind, they really go hand in hand because the same things that are fueling the process of going down the rabbit hole of believing you are the opposite sex are the very same habits of mind that perpetuate poor mental health in externalizing ways which are characteristic of specifically, especially cluster B personality disorders. you know, this idea that I can't be okay, I can't even be stable enough to preserve my own life unless you see me the way I want to be seen. That is a fundamentally narcissistic mentality. The identity instability, is, you know, characteristic of borderline. You used the word histrionic to describe the narrative. So there are these cluster B traits that are just predominant in the ideology itself. And I see young people developing those traits as they go down the rabbit hole. Just to continue going through your list, you talked about the rituals. I love this term, egotheistic belief system. The love bombing, emotional manipulation. Tyrannical authoritarianism. Trauma bonding, yeah, that's a good one. Encouraging people to cut ties with their families. Encouraging people to change their names. I mean, that's been a characteristic trait of cults for a long time, getting people to change their names. Ostracizing non-believers. Histrionic narratives about suicide and murder. The forced teaming with women in LGB and parasitic ways. I don't know if I heard you say thought control, but that's how I took it down in my notes when you talk about thought control. Also, another thing that you sort of referenced indirectly was this idea of blasphemy. That you can say something that's just so offensive that it's like evil and must be punished. And then something I want to add to that, that just came to mind as you were speaking, was that I think something that a lot of cults share in common is capitalizing on people with obsessive-compulsive tendencies. Which could be people who have had those tendencies as, you know, sort of trait neuroticism their whole life, or have a history of OCD. Could also be people who are going through kind of an obsessive-compulsive time in their life, doesn't mean it has to define them. But the ritualistic thinking, you know, it's sort of like taking a little bit of an OCD trait and spinning it out of control. So anyway, yeah, that was great. I love that you read that. And maybe we can now just kind of move on to the next list, because you also have this list of the top 10 gender activism myths that make good people promote bad ideas and policy.

Justine Deterling: So the top 10 gender activism myths that make good people promote bad ideas and policy. Who's being hurt by gender activism in culture and in the classroom? Myth one, gender taught in schools is evidence-based and progressive. Teachers would never introduce materials in schools that are harmful to students or damaging to parental rights. Fact. Educators have rapidly adopted school curricula devised from academically unsound theories about gender that are fueled by activist-driven identity politics. Advocates for this approach insist there are unlimited genders, that medically altering healthy bodies is unquestionably positive, and that the public must accept the notion that gender identity supersedes biology. These ideas increase identity confusion and body dysmorphia, reinforce gender stereotypes, and violate the rights of girls, homosexuals, and religious groups. Most seriously, they can lead youth into irreversible experimental medical pathways with serious health consequences, all while policy makers are removing parental rights. Okay, so kind of get an idea of where this is going.

Stephanie Winn: Yeah. And just to help people understand the value that this resource offers, should they choose to look it up after listening to this podcast, on your website, where you go over each of these myths, I'm sort of reading along with you the myth and the fact, you then explain what is in that section of the longer document. So just to read a sample of that, it says this section covers DEI, SEL, sex and gender education, queer theory, anti-bullying, gender stereotypes, critical theory, LGBTQ organizations, you have even certain Oregon administrative rules, Gay-Straight Alliance, there's this list of things that are covered in that section of the longer document. And so what we're going to be going over today is just sort of the 10 myths and the facts. But I want, you know, anyone who wants to be further resourced should definitely look at the complete resource you've created.

Justine Deterling: Yeah, this is also an SEO information battle, too. So we have quotes and examples and things like that that I wanted to put on the landing page. versus, say, a PDF, and most of the detailed information will be on the PDFs, and they're all buttons up there that you can easily find. So, myth two, medical gender transition is safe and healthy for minors. Fact, many people are unaware that since the late 1990s, minors have been receiving experimental medical interventions for gender dysphoria that have a proven track record of serious and permanent side effects in adults. These side effects include sterilization, Circulatory health risks, cell and organ damage, and loss of sexual function. Accumulating evidence of harm has led a growing number of health professionals to warn that they should not be used on minors. Myth three, gender identity activism doesn't negatively impact other people. Fact, gender activism taught in schools is not progressive and doesn't uphold priorities central to modern democracies. It is anti-science, reinforces sex stereotypes, encourages poor body image, confuses children about biological reality and sexual orientation, eradicates the concept of sex-based rights, ends fair sports for girls, and restricts free speech and free thought. I have a bunch of other ones here. It might be a little dry just to come through and read all of them. I could just read what the myths are without their descriptions, or people can go to find out more. Yeah, let's just go through the myths. You want to just go through them? Yeah. Myth four, gender affirming social and medical interventions for kids is the healthiest option because quote unquote trans kids know who they are and medical transition is the best choice. So this section goes through the medically necessary and life-saving care. misinformation. There's myth five, gender is a spectrum and biology doesn't matter. So here we talk about the problems with uncoupling the concept of gender with sex and how that is confusing and misleading young people. In myth six, gender identity is innate, immutable, and not influenced by social factors. So here's all the evidence for an obvious social contagion. And we talk a little bit about there are studies that show that gay people and trans identified people tend to be gender nonconforming. There might be brain effects, but there's all these other social effects. There's parental effects, there's mental health effects. Myth seven, there's expert consensus that these interventions are safe and best practice. So that covers the controversy about the affirmative model versus an exploratory model. This is all very detailed information. We do have a bullet pointed version that will break it down in a more simple way. Myth eight, the trans community is plagued with suicides and murders. This is a really important thing to take apart because it's damaging mental health. I don't want to come on here as if I'm not sympathetic to gender dysphoric youth. I am. I had gender dysphoria as a teenager. My spouse did as a child. We wouldn't have been diagnosed DSM But we had unhappiness around our gender. I care about these young people. And when you tell them that they're going to kill themselves and that there's a murder epidemic, I consider that child abuse. Okay, myth nine, gays, lesbians, bisexuals and trans identified adults agree with activists promoted gender ideology and pediatric medicalization. The people opposing radical trans activism for the longest have been liberal women, also particularly lesbians, and gay men, we just don't get any media attention in the United States where it has to be framed as a culture war. So this is one of the reasons for this whole project that we're doing. And There's no community. The people running these organizations don't have the right to speak for everybody, even though they act like they do. And they're really some of the worst people, to be honest. Myth 10. I know this is bad, but gender activism in schools, laws, and society is inevitable and will be the new accepted cultural norm. So why bother opposing it? I think the more people find out about gender activism, the more they don't like it. So I think there's hope to push back on some of this. And let's just go with worst case scenario. This gets completely enshrined into law. You can't control people's beliefs and minds. We'll always oppose being emotionally manipulated. We'll always oppose having our speech forced. And we will always oppose medicalizing young people. I mean people in my circles. Because this is a culture war issue now. The facts are out there. People have every opportunity to know the severity of the medical damage and either they think this damage is worth it to validate 12-year-olds as trans or they don't. It's pretty much That's what this is boiling down to. And this document is hopefully there to reach more people in the middle, because this is a culture war between people who think a gender spirit is very worth honoring. It's so important to individual rights. It's so important to individual liberties that even children should be able to completely put themselves under extreme body modification while they're still growing. And that's what they believe. versus people who believe that puberty is necessary, that the brain wiring in puberty is necessary, that the sexual maturation, mental maturation, physical maturation of a healthy puberty is critical and must be supported by adults whose job it is to protect even teenagers who make decisions that can be even worse than children can. Thank you for letting me read those, and each one of those sections has pretty detailed information and arguments and citations around all of those myths.

Stephanie Winn: Whether you're a long-time or first-time listener of the podcast, odds are you're just as concerned as I am about the gender ideology crisis that's affecting today's youth. What you may not be as aware of is another insidious practice occurring in med school classrooms, practitioners' offices, and hospitals alike. The discriminatory practices that focus on race instead of qualifications of healthcare providers. These universities, associations, and sometimes even states are breaking federal laws in their racially discriminatory practices. and one group is holding them accountable, Do No Harm. Do No Harm's membership-based organization is fighting so that patients get the best quality service and so that today's med students succeed as tomorrow's medical providers. If you're a medical provider, I encourage you to join Do No Harm today.

SPEAKER_01: Learn more and sign up at donoharmmedicine.org slash sometherapist. That's donoharmmedicine.org slash sometherapist.

Stephanie Winn: So with regard to myths number nine, you comment this from the perspective of, I believe you said being a gay leaning bisexual married to a woman. And, you know, I think this podcast and a lot of the people I associate with are, you know, find it very important to distinguish the real experiences and needs of gay, lesbian and bisexual people from this, as, as you've said, this sort of parasitic entity that is latched on to women, a group I belong to, and LGB people, a group that I don't. And so I think that's a good segue to something else that we had wanted to talk about, well, that you had brought up before we started recording, which was about how the mental health professional community is harming the LGB community. So, you know, as someone who wised up to this a few years ago, I quickly discovered that and I quickly became I'm very disturbed by seeing how these issues were being spoken about in the mental health community. Like, for example, when I go looking for continuing education courses, The sheer number of courses on the TQ plus side of things, from the affirming perspective, greatly outweighs the number of courses on a much more common issue that people face, such as being part of a blended family as I am. As a step-parent, there are so many more. I looked up the numbers. There are so many more step-parents and step-children in this country going through normal adjustment challenges to being part of a blended family then there are TQ-plus people in the United States. And yet, what kind of courses are licensed marriage and family therapists offered? Are they offered courses on the common American experience of adjusting to life as part of a blended family? No. They're bombarded with courses on gender-affirming care for TQ-plus people. And then when you look at things that are branded LGBTQ plus or LGBTQIA2S plus whatever alphabet soup, when you look at that stuff, whether it's a course in itself or whether it's sort of the added on cultural competency with this population that's part of some other training, like, for example, an internal family systems training I did a few years ago that had a little LGBTQ plus cultural competency unit tacked onto it, what I think most of us invariably find is that the emphasis is on the TQ Plus and not the LGB. So for example, when I did the internal family systems course, the whole course was taught by a gay man interviewing different people who are experts in the field of internal family systems. When it came to the LGB TQ Plus part, he probably could have taught it by himself as a gay man with plenty of experience counseling other gay people. But no, of course, he was interviewing an expert on the TQ Plus. And so It definitely feels from my perspective that mental health professionals are no longer encouraged to talk about the unique needs of lesbian, gays, and bisexuals in counseling, which, I mean, 10 years ago, this ideology was on the rise, but I still feel like we were permitted to talk. While I was in grad school more than 10 years ago, 2010 to 2013, while I was in grad school, we were still encouraged to talk about the needs of lesbian, gays, and bisexuals as their own groups, not as part of the LGBTQIA+, where everything has to be about affirmation and transition and pronouns. So I definitely feel like that's been a change in the field from my perspective, and I wanted to welcome you to speak, you know, to anyone who's curious and who's still listening this far into the episode, but especially in the in the event that there is a fence that are listening to this podcast, because I don't know who my audience is. I mean, it could be that someone's tuning into this as their very first time listening to my show, and they're, let's say, a therapist who is on the fence about this issue. Maybe a therapist who's been taught that the LGBTQIA plus is one unified community, and that they all think the same, they all want the same things, and that they all support you know, using desired pronouns and all of that kind of stuff. I just want to sort of open the floor to you to speak to that issue of how the mental health profession is dealing with the needs of LGBT, excuse me, LGB people versus the TQ at this time.

Justine Deterling: There's several things to speak to around that issue. So first of all, there are a lot of gay men and lesbians going along with this agenda and bisexuals. the youth are almost fully indoctrinated into it. And I see a lot of conservatives circulating negative information about the gender movement and LGBTQ things going on. And I just want to state that being influenced by social contagions is just common to human nature. It's not specific to gay and lesbian people. And you had entire towns burning their own family members and friends due to religion in Salem. You've had sex abuse scandals going on in the Baptist church and in Hasidic Jewish communities and Mormon communities, and everyone turns a blind eye to it. There are all kinds of behaviors and examples of people going along with things that they think are good, but are actually bad. So given the amount of scrutiny that's being directed at the rainbow flag and all of that, I just want to say we're looking at human nature here. There are a few vulnerabilities that gay men and lesbians have to getting sucked into this. And that's that we generally think that conservatives really don't like us. They definitely don't want our social inclusion in social institutions. So it's very easy for us to be manipulated into tribal thinking. And the people that are pushing that in toxic ways are culpable for it, and I'm not excusing it. But one of the ways that that's been so easy for gay men and lesbians to jump on this bandwagon, other than the fact that there are higher rates of gender dysphoria in homosexual people and they're worried for their friends, is that the mental health profession has done everything they can to promote the idea that this is life-saving care and this is preventing suicides. Now, it's very easy to push little emotional buttons in people and have mass contagions. You have stock bubbles. You have murderous pitchfork lynch mobs. You have all kinds of group behaviors. And it's pretty easy to get people to do that if you push the right emotional buttons. The mental health profession has pushed the buttons of people in gay rights organizations to believe that they are saving trans children. Now, when you start to go through and break apart the studies and really look at them, you realize that there is no proof of that. That is inconclusive. It's even inconclusive whether or not medical transition saves the lives of adults. So you've pushed buttons in our community that are highly emotive and whoops people up into histrionics around saming trans children. Gay and lesbian people don't want body parts cut off of mentally ill children. We don't want body parts cut off of confused proto-gay kids. But there's certain emotional buttons that have been pushed and they are not on the internet reading all the studies. Watching all these videos people most people don't have time for that. So I just wanted to explain why Yes, a lot of gay and lesbian people are pushing this and the mental health professions part in that is Misinforming the public the second thing is desistance denial every psychologist, social worker who's involved in this is involved in desistance denial. They've done everything they can to debunk, downplay, prevaricate around the research that many pre-gay and lesbian kids would outgrow gender dysphoria if allowed to go through puberty. Diane Ehrensaft has done this. Christina Olsen has done this, who is the head of the Trans Youth Project. And I will mention those two first, because when I first started researching this, I emailed them and other psychologists. And I said, you know, a lot of LGB people are very worried about this. And I don't discuss private emails, and it doesn't matter anyway, because it's the same thing they do in public. They downplay the dangers to proto-gay children. I don't use sexual orientation with children. It's too young, and there's reasons not to do that. But pre-gay and lesbian kids, and you know when you see an extreme tomboy or an extreme sissy boy, you know where that's going. Let's not pretend that we don't. Very often, you know, very flamboyant male child is very likely to grow up gay, and we shouldn't always assume that. So your entire profession, has done everything in its power to dismantle that narrative. And one of the better studies by Singh, who I believe was probably a graduate student, it was a dissertation that the study was based on. Singh has all of these questions about gender dysphoria and the severity of it. And you can see that the desisters score within the same ranges as the persisters. So this idea that people like Christina Olson or Diane Ehrensaft or Joanna Olson-Kennedy, all of these people have, she's a doctor, but there's other psychologists and social workers have put forth that desistance isn't worth worrying about. They're intentionally downplaying this because in my opinion, Those children that are going to get tracked into medicalization are morally acceptable collateral damage. That's it. So I view the mental health profession as a hostile entity to the interests of gay and lesbian people. And bisexuals too are more likely to be gendered dysphoric too, as we're seeing. We have a right to a healthy puberty. We have the right to struggle. We have the right to have a horrible time. We have a right to hate ourselves and work through that. And in a lot of ways, we're being encouraged to hate ourselves and medically damage ourselves. And I can't control what adults do, but the developmental process through puberty is critical and destroying that process is a human rights crime in my thinking. Also, even persistently dysphoric minors need a healthy puberty. So here's another kind of inside thing that the average even therapist doesn't really know. And that's that, for example, you have a sexual orientation called GAMP. males who are sexually attracted to feminized males, ladyboys, whatever you want to call them, they don't want puberty blocked, stunted, or males with bottom surgery. They're actually more attracted to that in-between place of a male that maybe has breast implants is maybe feminized, but doesn't have bottom surgery. They actually, they're into that. So I think it would be a better approach to maybe destigmatize that to a certain extent so these men can have healthier relationships rather than just putting those males into porn categories. So there are reasons not to sexually damage a persisting child. There are reasons not to sterilize a persisting child. There are pro-trans community, trans-identified community supportive arguments to argue that young people need to go through puberty, even if their gender dysphoria never resolves. And I don't want to say I'm promoting transition because I don't think anyone should do it, But at least with harm reduction, it's better not to get bottom surgery or have your sexuality completely lobotomized at age 11. So the mental health profession is doing a lot of damage, in my opinion, to my minority group by covering up desistance, by pushing histrionic narratives, by ignoring the fact that there are healthy, good reasons for persisters to go through puberty. And it's, it's the psychologist that's that started this, too, in a lot of ways, not just the doctors to a doctor. Every nail needs a hammer and the doctor's just the hammer. But the justification for all this is all happened within the mental health profession. If you disagree, let me know. I mean, that's okay. That's my feeling of it because I have interacted with dozens of psychologists, myself personally, and I see very little evidence that they care that this damage is happening. So this statement I'm saying is coming from personal experience of doing this and watching this and communicating with mental health professionals since 2015. And I can count the ones that are concerned about this publicly on maybe one and a half hands.

Stephanie Winn: Well, I guess what I want to say is that I'm sorry that you have so many reasons to feel that way. And I don't blame you, and I understand why you and so many people feel that way, and I partly agree with you. Like, I 100% understand why you feel that way. There's enough in your experience and there's enough evidence to make you and all kinds of people feel that way, right? It doesn't mean that Doesn't mean I'm gonna agree with any black and white narrative that says all people who belong to a certain category are bad, right? I know that, you know, it's a category I belong to and, you know, I'm sorry that you can only count the people who are bad. In my profession, publicly, I've spoken about this on one and a half hands. I understand that. I can maybe count them on two and a half. But I talk to a lot more people behind the scenes, and that's one of the things people reach out to me for consultation about. I would say I've moved now fully only to doing consulting and not therapy for the time being for health reasons. And the number one reason people hire me for consulting is because they need help reaching their kid. But the second or third most common thing that people reach out to me for help with is that their fellow mental health professionals were conflicted about this issue and searching for their voice and afraid of the ramifications either way, whether they're afraid of losing their license or afraid of harming a patient by not telling the patient what they know. about, you know, where these surgeries lead and things like that. So, you know, I think that there are a lot more good people, but I do think cowardice is an issue. I don't want to just paint it in too broad of a stroke, though, because what can easily be dismissed as cowardice from a distance, when you look at it up close, there's a lot of individual factors going on in a person's life. And I know, like, how hard I worked to get to where I was career-wise, and also that once Once you make that choice of going public, having the type of views that I've gone public with, it does permanently change your career trajectory. Like, for me, for one, I had to deal with worst case scenario, what happens if I do lose my license over this issue, right? And then there's the stress, there's the, you know, the planning of the backup plans. But then there's just, like, I can't work with these kids now, because they could Google me, And I don't believe anything they find is bad, but I know that they've been conditioned because they're in a cult, they've been conditioned to interpret whatever they would find on Google in a way that would make it impossible for them to want to work with me in any productive way. So I've given up the ability to work with these youth. And so now we have this like underground network of therapists who You know, some of us have chosen to be public like me and have taken the career risks that come with that, have our backup plans, our consulting practices, our, you know, limited populations that we work with, and are willing to say a big F you to our licensing boards if we have to. And then there are the people who aren't Googleable. who, you know, can still try to help these youth and are in our little, you know, private networks of like, can anyone help this family without affirming their 15 year old who came down with gender dysphoria three months ago and now wants a mastectomy, you know, like, so, so it's, it's complicated. But I completely understand why you and so many other people feel that way. And I think it's a disgrace to the profession. I think that we have a lot to be ashamed of and a lot to clean up. And it further bothers me that there are so many therapists who can hear that and dismiss that as, you know, again, whether it's dismissing it as right wing, which it's not for me or you, or just, you know, dismiss it in any way, like, it's definitely disturbing to me. But I think, you know, even setting aside the more major concerns about the long term and permanent damage, that is happening to people. I even just worry about like, what happens when we lose the knowledge that we had 10 or 20 years ago of the counseling needs of lesbians and gays, because all the trainings have been taken over by the TQ. I even think that's an issue. There's one more thought I want to make sure to share, which is you mentioned desistance denial. And I want to refer back to my recent episode with Nicholas Blooms. He's a detransitioner and an artist who created a graphic novel on his experience of detransition. And toward the end, maybe about an hour in, we got to talking about something that I think we need to talk about more in the mental health community, which is the gender dis- excuse me, the ego-distonic to egocentonic axis. It's a psychology concept, Not a lot of people outside of the field of psychology are familiar with it. But I explained in that episode a working model that I have for thinking about how with gender dysphoria, for example, as the most pertinent example to our work, a person's relationship with the distress itself will change over time. So during peak ideological capture, During peak trans ideation for a vulnerable young person, the nature of the gender dysphoria reaches a peak in terms of how egosyntonic it is. So for the psychology professionals who are familiar with that term, you know, they understand that to mean that the person's sense of who they are as a person is merged with having this diagnosis and this identity built around it. And so when your identity is attached to something, you don't want to change it. You don't want it to go away. There's no, you know, it's not like with depression or anxiety where you're like, I would like to be free of these symptoms, right? But that there's this whole cohort of mental health professionals who have an egocentronic narrative about gender dysphoria, meaning they also believe that if someone has gender dysphoria, it's indicative of who they are, that this will be permanent, that it should be respected and supported and encouraged through medicalization. I'm on the gender, excuse me, I keep saying that. I'm on the ego-dystonic framework side of things, which means I believe that the best way to think about this condition is as a temporary one separate from the sense of self. And I understand that patients, even ones who have an ego-syntonic gender dysphoria at one point in time, even patients who think this is who I am and who I'll always be, we need to see them in a way where we can see their sense of self separating from that diagnosis and hold the hope that that might very well be the best outcome for them because then, you know, it's going to be healthier in the long run. So anyway, I explained that a lot more clearly in that episode with Nicholas Blooms, and I think that when you bring up the concept of desistance denial, the way I'm interpreting that is denial that ego, excuse me, denial that gender dysphoria can be ego-distonic, or denial that if it is ego-syntonic, if it is fused with a person's sense of self, that this is something that can shift over time. And I think that denial is especially ironic because in the mental health professional community, we generally favor an ego-dystonic attitude. In other words, we understand that things like personality disorders that are deeply entrenched are more ego-syntonic, and that that's not desirable. That's something we want to help people avoid or treat. So again, it's just another one of the ways that our mentality as mental health providers has really deviated on this issue compared to our thought process around any other thing. Now, I mean, there are woke therapists who have a more ego-syntonic relationship with all kinds of psychopathology, but I won't get into that.

Justine Deterling: Yeah, I mean, it's not just woke therapists, like this is the APA non-binary fact sheet. Now, the term non-binary and fact are actually not compatible. Being non-binary is a belief system, and it's promoted by the largest psychology organization probably in the United States. Is that correct? I'm not sure. And I assume you need to have some kind of credentialed process happen with the blessing of this organization. So I know therapists are under an incredible amount of pressure and I'm not cancelable. So I can speak out on this and that's a privilege and other people don't have that. So I'm not talking about the average therapist that doesn't want to speak out about this. I'm talking about intentionally Or at least you should know better or have access to the correct information about the studies. And you either don't inform yourself or you lie about the studies or you avoid talking about them. So I'm talking about misrepresenting research. I'm talking about adopting whole beliefs, subjective belief systems in institutions on a widespread level that are influencing the Democratic Party that is instituting policy. So my criticism of the mental health profession, I hope it's clear that I'm not attacking a bunch of individuals who are put in a hard place. I'm telling you that it's influencing people at the UN. That's how big a deal this is.

Stephanie Winn: Yeah, the APA is shameful. I'm not a member. I believe it's for clinical psychologists, which I'm not. I'm a master's level clinician. I have a master's in counseling psychology. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. I'm temporarily not working as an LMFT right now. I'm just working only part time because of my health. So I'm only doing consulting and podcasting right now. But that aside. The APA is just shameful. The AAMFT is captured too, like the American Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. I am a marriage and family therapist, but I'm not a member of this organization. They're not my credentialing body because they're a nationwide organization, and credentialing happens at the state level. But I mean, transgender resources are just right at the top of their website. And it's like, how did we decide that this is the most important issue for married and family therapists? I mean, while I, of course, have a dissenting opinion on this subject, and I happen to be particularly passionate about it because I'm concerned about the amount of harm it's doing, even for people who aren't particularly interested in this issue, Why are all these organizations devoting so many resources?

Justine Deterling: Well, yeah. life-saving care, life-saving suicide. So the mental health profession puts out that narrative and then uses that to bring in all the other mental health professionals into the idea that we're going to save this community. It's a messiah complex. That's kind of a bad thing. Narcissists can have messiah complexes, but it's also mostly just genuinely wanting to help. It's genuinely wanting to help, but there's no excuse for people in a particular profession that is green lighting, I can never say the word, irreversible, medical treatments on minors who obviously lack an understanding of what the actual research says. That's completely indefensible to be in any kind of mental health profession, okaying letters, influencing policies, posting gender materials on their websites, and to not understand what the research actually says. That's having credibility burnt to the ground level bad behavior. And And it's not all the individuals involved in it, but it's almost every institution is involved in doing this. So if the institutions are not the individuals, what are the institutions?

Stephanie Winn: If you're looking for a simple way to take better care of yourself, check out Organifi. I start every day with a glass of their original green juice powder mixed with water. It contains moringa, ashwagandha, chlorella, spirulina, matcha, wheatgrass, beets, turmeric, mint, lemon, and coconut water. 100% organic with no added sugar. It's the best tasting superfood supplement I've ever tried. It's super easy to make and it makes me feel good. Organifi also makes several other delicious and nutritious superfood blends such as red juice, immune support, protein powders, a golden milk mix, and even superfood hot cocoa. Check out the collection at Organifi.com slash Sumtherapist. That's O-R-G-A-N-I-F-I dot com slash Sumtherapist. And use code Sumtherapist to take 20% off your order. You know, we need to wrap up in a few minutes. But since you mentioned the letter writing, I really want to offer to anybody who's still listening who happens to be in my profession, I want to offer some practical advice as to how to walk that back. Because this recently came up. I had a therapist reach out to me who was feeling really conflicted. I will just say this person had in the past written a letter to approve someone's surgery and then learned more, regretted having done that. The surgery had been delayed, delayed, delayed. The person needed a new updated letter. The therapist didn't feel comfortable doing that. the patient was able to get the letter from someone else. So this person sought me out for consultation saying, I feel really conflicted. What do I do about this? And understandably, they're concerned that if they said anything remotely gender critical sounding, that the patient could become very upset. Because this is somebody who's entrenched in an ideology and has been taught that so-called conversion therapists are their enemy, yada, yada, right? And so here is some advice that I gave this person, and I just want to offer it to any therapist who might need to hear something similar. We have been taught, at least I'm a relational therapist, I would say primarily relational psychodynamic at my foundational core, although I'm eclectic in my style. As a relational therapist, we are taught to address the transference and countertransference dynamics. And power dynamics are part of that. And they're part of that that in many ways the woke left is very big on addressing, although they have a much different understanding of power dynamics than those of us who are more centrist or politically homeless. So what I suggested this therapist could say was to acknowledge to the patient, I feel guilty. I feel that I've wronged you because of how much power I had. in rubber stamping this procedure, using my credentials as a medical authority, especially for you as a young person, you know, because most of these people are younger, they don't have the life experience or professional credentials like we do. You know, I feel like I've misused my authority by using my credentials to say that I can know for sure that this is going to benefit you in the long run. How could I possibly know that? I don't have a crystal ball, I can't predict the future, you know, maybe including something that this person knows about actual rates of success and happiness in the long run or not. But maybe just speaking to it relationally, like, I feel that I've harmed you by using my authority in this way when that's actually not something that I could possibly know. And I regret having done that and I'm sorry. Even if the patient doesn't feel that that was wrong, I think it could be so significant for the patient, even if they're deeply entrenched in thinking that I'm a trans man and I need a mastectomy or whatever. I think it could be so powerful for the patient to hear that, especially because we know that when it comes to these young women, a lot of them have trauma histories, a lot of them are pursuing these surgeries or binding or whatever to escape sexualization or to address a memory of having been molested or raped. And so to acknowledge as an authority figure in this person's life that I feel I've misused my power over you, I think could be quite healing and I think could be really eye-opening for the patient, could create some cognitive dissonance because they're like, well, I thought my therapist was doing a good thing when she wrote this letter. She was affirming me. This is what I want, right? But just to hear it as an apology, I think, could be, I don't know, just a really important first step toward further conversation. So I just wanted to offer that tool to any therapists who are listening, who are thinking about, how do I walk it back? I'm curious, before we wrap up, if you have any thoughts on that, Justine.

Justine Deterling: Yeah, I do. You're in incredibly difficult situations. You're dealing with a population that wants to do this. They want this. They want it badly. They're not going to stop, many of them. So some people are very, very sure. I am probably more open to the nature idea of gender dysphoria and trans identity, because I do think there's something about being extremely gender nonconforming and how our in utero hormones or side effects of other things that affect hormones, like with the birth order effect and male homosexuality, things like that. I think we are a visual species. We We play up gender. Gender is obviously very important in how men dress, how women dress. There are heterosexual, romantic, sexual, and beauty norms. We can't get away from that. The people that are very, very far outside of that, I am sympathetic that they feel like they're a man in a woman's body. That makes sense to me. It is difficult to change that or flip that from the syntonic to dystonic or whatever those exact terms were, I think in certain individuals. And I'm sympathetic to them and I actually understand that. And I'm kind of a determinist in a lot of ways, but this is clearly influencing all kinds of other people. And autogynephilia is clearly its own niche of thing that is more of a psychosexual condition that doesn't necessarily belong in all these other categories. But these people, whether it's a transient idea or one that's going to be permanent, really, really, really, really, really, really, really want to do this. And so trying to say no to that is extremely difficult. I don't know how to handle it. What I would do is I mean, to me, bottom surgeries are clearly malpractice, and there are laws that regulate people not being abused by the medical profession, and I don't know how to handle that, but people are still going to transition. I would treat it as cosmetic surgery. I wouldn't fund it. That's what transsexuals, back when they called themselves that, used to do. I'm not recommending this, but probably Maybe better to have to fund your own transition to make sure it's really something that you want to do rather than offer it up to a 14-year-old paid for by Medicare. Anyway, you're in a difficult situation.

Stephanie Winn: I think you offered so much value. So just tell people where they can find you, Gender Health Query, and this resource. And then we'll also be sure to include those links in the show notes. Right. Yeah.

Justine Deterling: Please do. The umbrella website is called The Homearchy, which I'm going to turn into a new site that's hopefully disseminates accurate information. And Gender Health Query is the medical watchdog part of that project. And so you'll find that at thehomearchy.com. There are links. at The Homarchy on X, Twitter, and you can find me there. I'd like to ask people, if you're unhappy with what's going on in your school, if you can come and look at our links, look at our PDFs, send it to maybe three people at your school. Just grab their emails. It wouldn't take long. Like this counselor, like, hey, we don't like this is going on. It will be a great resource for that purpose. It's obviously not a conservative source. And I just want to thank the other people who've supported our project. We have other endorsers, but I have spoken as my own self today. I don't want to misrepresent anybody else's opinion. I've spoken for myself and I appreciate the support we've gotten from other groups, which you can see on our page. So thank you for spending so much time with me.

Stephanie Winn: Okay. Thanks. It's been a pleasure, Justine. I hope you enjoyed this episode of You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist podcast. To check out my book recommendations, articles, wellness products, guest episodes on other podcasts, consulting services, and lots more, visit SomeTherapist.com or follow me on Twitter or Instagram at SomeTherapist. If you'd like to go deeper, join my community at somekindoftherapist.locals.com. Members can dialogue with other listeners, post questions for upcoming podcast guests to respond to, or ask questions for me to respond to in exclusive members-only Q&A live streams. To learn more about the gender crisis, watch our film, No Way Back, The Reality of Gender-Affirming Parent, at nowaybackfilm.com. Special thanks to my producers, Eric and Amber Beals at Different Mix, and to Joey Pecoraro for our theme song, Half Awake. If you appreciate this podcast and want more people to find it, kindly take a moment to rate, review, like, comment, and share on your platforms of choice. Of course, just because I am some therapist doesn't mean I'm your therapist. This podcast is not a substitute for medical advice. If you need help, ask your doctor or browse your local therapists online. And whatever you do next, please take care of yourself. Eat well, sleep well, move your body, get outside, and tell someone you love them. You're worth it.