You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist

Swell AI Transcript: 112 Stephen Scaer FINAL.mp4
Stephen Scaer:
You're teaching kids that they don't have any agency over their own happiness, that their entire happiness depends on getting this gender identity, this gendered soul fully affirmed. And if they're not happy, it's because they're not sufficiently affirming it. So they've got to put their, their bodies and the hands of medical industry. That's their only hope for happiness and avoiding suicide that these young people are getting blackmailed too.

Stephanie Winn: You must be some kind of therapist. Today I'm speaking with Stephen Scare. He is a New Hampshire based special education teacher and an activist fighting sex trade modifications for children. You might have heard of Stephen as Sidewalk Steve, which is a nickname that he's picked up for the fact that he goes out there on the sidewalks and talks to people about the harm done by gender clinics, puberty blockers, and pediatric sex trait modification. So my goal today with our conversation is to empower you as a listener with communication techniques, whether you want to find the courage to do what Steven is doing, whether you want to testify in court, or whether you simply want to talk to the people nearest and dearest to you about your concerns about pediatric sex trait modification. So as part of that conversation, we'll talk about the most important talking points, communication techniques, And of course, everyone's favorite topic, the suicide narrative. Stephen, thank you so much for joining me today. It's a pleasure to have you. Should be fun. All right. So you have shared your backstory, for example, on Aaron Brewer's YouTube channel. I think we'll skip past all that and just kind of make a note for anyone who wants to hear the backstory that they can go ahead and listen to that. But let's delve in to the work that you are currently doing. So can you tell us about your activism?

Stephen Scaer: Yes, the biggest thing I do is just in my state trying to communicate with my state lawmakers and even in my town speaking to the aldermen and the school board and the library trustees saying things that they don't want to hear. And then I try to teach other people how to do it by putting it up on on Twitter. And I've been trying to get around to different parts of my state and then down to to Boston just to stand around to talk to people. I stand there with a sign and people can approach me. And I keep a camera on not only for recording it, but I learned early on I needed to have that on for safety.

Stephanie Winn: Have you been attacked, assaulted?

Stephen Scaer: Yeah. Right now I'm visiting my daughter in Colorado. And the last time I was down here was on New Year's Day. I went to a beautiful park area just to stand outside the gate. Didn't stand near anyone, didn't bother anyone. And a woman stopped by and she She flung a bag of dog poop at me. Wow. I'm glad I had the camera because, you know, made for good video.

Stephanie Winn: Wow. You say that so stoically. Have you ever pressed charges or have any of these people ended up in jail for what they've done to you?

Stephen Scaer: Well, yeah, I pressed charges against her for having done that. I don't think anyone's going to go to jail. It looks like she's looking at a fine when this goes through. I often go out with my wife, and sometimes my wife, Beth, goes out without me too. And she was at the Exeter Alien Festival with me, and a woman tried to grab the phone out of her hand. And the police were very good about that, and we pressed charges there. Usually just having the phone on, I mean, the camera on acts as a deterrent, just people seeing that.

Stephanie Winn: So this stuff is scary, and it's not for the faint of heart. I mean, I'm sure anyone who's following the work of Billboard Chris has heard about the numerous times that he's been assaulted, you've been assaulted. It's certainly not for everyone to put yourself in that position. I do hear that a precaution would include film, having someone there with you and knowing some self-defense. And it's probably to your advantage that you're male and, you know, a bit physically stronger than a female might be in that situation. But I'm wondering, given that we're sort of starting off on a rough note of the fact that it can be an endangering situation, have you also had encouraging responses

Stephen Scaer: Well, first of all, knowing a bit about self-defense is I'm not going to do anything to defend myself because if I raise, other than trying to step back, maybe raising my hands to protect me, because if there's anything that could be painted as a mutual conflict, it's quite likely it's going to be put on me. And as far as getting hurt, I've got some young friends who've been horribly hurt by this, including Katie Anderson, a detransitioner who's been pretty outspoken. She goes to my church, and whatever I suffer isn't going to be anything like what she suffers. And one of the perks of advocating against this is getting to know Precia Mosley, too. And when I see what she goes through, whatever happens to me isn't significant.

Stephanie Winn: That's a good point about self-defense. It is a tricky subject and beyond my purview to comment on with any expertise in this conversation. You asked me about? About positive responses to your activism. I mean, you're putting yourself out there trying to change minds and hearts. So what encouraging news do you have for us about that?

Stephen Scaer: It's overwhelmingly positive when I go out and that's changed a bit. When I started, people were either very angry at me or They had no idea what I was talking about, what I was out there for. And it was, why don't you just mind your own business? And I get that overwhelmingly lately. People are really happy to see me and see someone speaking out against that. And it's not just in Republican communities. New Hampshire is a pretty socially liberal place. And I go down into Boston now and again, too. And people will come to me and often they'll tell me their stories about what's happening with with their children or their neighbor's children. So they're just happy to have someone to talk to and often to ask for resources. So it's much, much more positive than negative.

Stephanie Winn: That's interesting that you say that it's changed over time because people are often asking me What's my sense of how things are shifting in society? Are they getting better? Has society peaked yet? All that kind of stuff. And I always say, well, there are a lot of limitations to the ability of an individual such as myself to make any grand sweeping statements about the direction society is moving in. But we do look to things like this to give us a sense. And the fact that you're putting yourself out there in any town, USA, Main Street, just talking to people and that you in that position have noticed it going from people either being angry or uninformed to people knowing there's a problem, knowing we've gone too far and thanking you for speaking out. That is really encouraging news. It is.

Stephen Scaer: It's public policy in a liberal state like mine. It's socially liberal. New Hampshire prides itself on being socially liberal and fiscally conservative. So the difficult that we're having regarding communicating is just getting people to come up to the statehouse. And that's what I was working on today that in New Hampshire, there were two bills of the statehouse. Unfortunately, I couldn't be there. I'm visiting my new grandson in Colorado. So I was busy just watching the testimony and making video clips. And Most of the people that are against this, unfortunately, they're fully employed and taking a few days off is a big, big deal. In the meantime, the people that can go to the statehouse have a lot more spare time on their hands. A lot of these are people that they're in government agencies or youth services that may be taking government money and they can take out the time for for all of these hearings. So that's where I think that we've we've still got to work is just getting people to stand up and testify at the statehouse and send in communications there.

Stephanie Winn: That's a good point. There are there there's a lot of money on the trans activist side and a lot of people without much else to do people without children. or people who've become, you know, the munchie moms, their children's biggest advocates because they believe they're saving trans kids.

Stephen Scaer: One observation about that that I've made is, as a special ed teacher, I've been working often with autistic children, and then I've worked with autistic adults for a couple of years, too. They're obviously targeting, the trans rights activists in the middle medical industry target people with autism, and autism has just a tremendously high unemployment rate. So the people that have been hurt by this, the people that consider themselves transgender, they've got the time to come to the State House, too, and they'll be lured in with, we're going to have a special picnic after for the people that participates. So, yeah, the people are widely available to testify for this.

Stephanie Winn: That's a really good point. So let's talk about how you go about your work, talking points, communication techniques. We will get to the suicide narrative, I'm sure, with time. But when you're out there talking to people, how do you prepare yourself, and what are your main talking points?

Stephen Scaer: Well, as far as preparing myself, when I'm heading out somewhere, I'm pretty introverted. It's not something that I enjoy at least starting, and my mind is racing through all sorts of other things that I could and maybe should be doing. And I'm not a particularly brave person. I tend to get a knot in my stomach before I do it. And once I get out there, I look around for a good place to stand where there's going to be hopefully some pedestrian traffic. And by now I've been around the state enough, I know what those spots are. There aren't that many spots in New Hampshire to stand around. We're going to run into a lot of people. And the signs are the conversation starters, and of course, that's something I picked up from Billboard Chris. And depending on what I'm working on and where I'm standing, the signs may say gender ideology doesn't belong in school, gender clinics harm children, children don't need gender ideology, and no child is born in the wrong body. And those are the conversation starters right there when people see those signs. So then I'd make it a point to make sure I'm not blocking anyone, not standing in anyone's way. I might smile and nod as people go by, but I don't want people as a sensitive issue to think I'm smirking at them either. So I just stand by and wait for people to come and talk to me. And usually I don't wait long.

Stephanie Winn: OK. So those are a few starting points. And did I hear correctly also children cannot consent to puberty blockers? Is that one of your signs? Or is that one of Billboard Chris's signs?

Stephen Scaer: That's one of Billboard Chris's signs. I do have one that I inherited from another activist, Julie Wright. She sent us some signs over. And if I go out with my wife, she might bring that sign. But I don't have such a sign.

Stephanie Winn: And it's a sign that says children cannot consent to puberty blockers.

Stephen Scaer: Yeah. I have the sidewalk, Steve, on a plain white one that my my wife comes out and she often comes out with me and the one that she brings out that was a real gets people really charged up is why are so many girls getting double mastectomies? Okay, just mastectomies. Yeah. So that definitely gets people going.

Stephanie Winn: Okay. All right. Well, let's let's talk about each of those. So you said you have a sign that says gender ideology does not belong in schools. I presume that you wear this you would wear this closer to schools then.

Stephen Scaer: Once in a while, I'm going out to talk to people about a school activity. For example, the most noteworthy one was in a nearby town Milford, New Hampshire, they had a situation where at a middle school, a girl complained about boys going into the women's restroom. And one was a boy who identified as genderfluid. So he was using both boys and the girls' room, and he would go into the girls' room, keep the stall door open and and pee. And she felt very intimidated about that and complained about that. So in retaliation, the boy and his friends, who identify as furry, followed her and her friends into the locker room while they were changing and leered at them and made remarks about their bodies. So that's the situation that I went out when they were looking at different policies for that to where the gender ideology doesn't belong in schools or any legislation. If I'm going to the State House regarding gender ideology in school, I'd bring that along.

Stephanie Winn: That's a really disturbing story. What's the response to that?

Stephen Scaer: Well, it had some comedic elements. What the school board tried to do is come up with a let's cut the baby in half solution. And they decided that everyone would need to be in the stalls with the doors closed so no one felt exposed. And then they covered over the urinals with with plastic and I guess duct tape. And the boys had a march out so that didn't fly. So as far as I know, the boys are still using the girls' room. It's not resolved. Okay. Awkward. And the upshot of all that, pushing the stuff in schools and not having any solution is, you know, I mentioned that I work at charter schools, without getting too specific, that they're charter schools in New Hampshire are getting very big. It was just a few years ago, it seems like they just got started. And there's a long waiting list for them because people are doing that and people are talking to me about homeschooling. The public schools don't have this figured out. But the response to that, for that sign, is it's not an ideology. And if people are willing to listen, then I get a chance to talk about how this has the elements of an ideology, if not a religion.

Stephanie Winn: Okay, so one of the responses you get when you wear the sign that says gender ideology doesn't belong in schools is people come and say, it's not an ideology. Okay, and then if they're willing to listen, how do you explain the ways that you see it as ideological?

Stephen Scaer: I just go start by saying that Transgenderism teaches that a girl can be possessed by a boy's immutable, unchangeable soul. And this gender identity is supposedly who she is and not her body. And that's an absolute religious premise. It's a Gnostic presence. It's a Gnostic religion. Most people don't know what that means. And they'll challenge me on this. And then I'll ask them, well, Can you tell me what a gender identity is without relying on on stereotypes or circular reasoning? And of course, of course, they can't. And some people, that's something that they do want to talk about. And I've had people that disagree with me saying, I see what you're talking about there.

Stephanie Winn: So some people are open to that. What other responses do you get to that sign?

Stephen Scaer: With any of that sign or any sign, a really common response is maybe the most common from people that disagree with me is swearing at me and then running away as quickly as they can, not engaging. I used to have more people getting in my face and swearing at me, but I think they see the camera now, so they're less likely to do that. Now I'm at a stage where I've been around New Hampshire so much that when I go somewhere, people have a pretty good idea who I am, so they're a little more careful about engaging with me. Some people will want to make points, And they'll talk to me, and they may not give me a chance to respond to that. So the answer varies depending on, I think, how much cognitive dissonance there is, how anxious they are because of the sign.

Stephanie Winn: Yeah, and you did a good job of talking with Aaron Brewer about cognitive dissonance. I think we should circle back to it. So there are the people. who swear and run away, and they're not our audience because they're too fragile. The cognitive dissonance, as you said, is too great. They cannot fathom that you could be an intelligent and good-hearted human being and have arrived at a different conclusion from them on this topic. So in order for you to have arrived at that conclusion, you have to be stupid, evil, or both.

Stephen Scaer: I still think of them as part of my as part of my audience. What really got me going out on the sidewalk regularly is I put up some billboards a few years ago when Abigail Schreer's Irreversible Damage came out. And one was in a local town, beautiful little town, Derry, New Hampshire. And the liberal activists in the town managed to get that advertisement on. It was an electronic billboard advertisement that was scrolling in sequence. they got it removed, which is funny because this is the same group that would be complaining about book bans right now. So I decided, well, I'm going to go and I'm going to stand out with my signs because they're not going to silence me. And the point is that no one wanted to see my sign there. And I figured if these people don't want to see my sign, then there's got to be a reason for it. It means that even if they are Shutting me up that it me just saying this to them them hearing this as an effect and These the people that get mad at me and swear at me and run off When they got home and they sit down for dinner, what are they going to be talking about?

Stephanie Winn: So it sounds like you sort of operate by the philosophy that any reaction is a good reaction because at least you are showing your opposition, at least people cannot say that there's no debate.

Stephen Scaer: Yes, there's that. And I think a lot of these people, first of all, if they're really having that kind of level of cognitive dissonance, that kind of angry, it probably means that they've got a lot of doubts themselves or they wouldn't lash out. And it's quite likely, and this is something I have to be really sensitive of, is the people that are getting really mad and might swear at me and get in my face, they've probably been really hurt by gender ideology.

Stephanie Winn: That's a really good point. I was going to save this for later, but let's go into it now, the cognitive dissonance piece. I do want to make sure to come back to your talking points, common reactions you get, how you handle things. But the cognitive dissonance is such a good point, and it's something that I talk about a lot with the parents that I work with, because I'm not sure if you're familiar, but the main thing I do nowadays is coach families through how to talk to their kids about this. And it's so important to see what's going on with cognitive dissonance and then the sort of immature defense mechanisms people have for cognitive dissonance. So one of those would be splitting in projection, right? So, and this is something you see with between teens and their parents, especially if you have an ROGD parent, excuse me, an ROGD teen. and a non-affirming parent, the teen will consciously think of themselves as being all in with the trans stuff and very certain about it, and then split off and project all of their doubts onto the parents and end up in a sort of seesaw, head-butting type of argument. And one of the things I work with parents on when I'm coaching them through this is how to actually recognize signs that exactly what you said, Steve, is happening here, that the kid is actually getting this emotionally reactive in part because a part of them doesn't believe what they're saying or is scared that they're making the wrong choice. And the way that they're sort of reifying this mentality that they've invested in is to project their doubt onto you so that they can. And I think you bring up such a good point that some of the people who do this are the ones who themselves are actually being harmed. And that's part of where it's so hard to get to people too, because the conscious identity is another aspect of cognitive dissonance. The conscious identity of the person is, I am smart. I'm not the sort of person who could be fooled. I'm definitely not the sort of person that would believe something ridiculous or do something self-destructive or join a cult. So if one's whole sense of self especially during a time in life that it's still pretty fragile, is based on this certain idea about the kind of person they are. And you're trying to present them with evidence that would threaten that, that, you know, evidence that you've actually been fooled or taken advantage of here, or the people you've made out to be the bad guy are actually the good guy, and maybe you've done something wrong. I mean, all of that is just so triggering. I love sleep. Sound sleep is a crucial foundation of good mental and physical health, from mood and concentration to metabolism and cellular repair. And I sleep very well thanks to my Eight Sleep Pod Pro Cover. My side of the bed is programmed to be warm when I get in and cool down to a neutral temperature in the middle of the night so I don't wake up overheated like I used to. How would you customize your bed temperature? Visit 8sleep.com and use promo code SUMTHERAPIST to take up to $200 off your purchase. Even if they're already running another sale, this code will get you an additional $50 off. Eight Sleep currently ships not only within the USA, but also to Canada, the UK, select countries in the European Union and Australia. Thanks for considering purchases that support the show.

Stephen Scaer: I don't go in as deeply as you because I'm not a therapist. It was just something in college and I had the misfortune of being a sociology major and I took it seriously. was actually reading Leon Festinger's When Prophecy Fails. And that was all about millennial movements through history. And of course, the world hasn't ended. And the tendency of people when the prophecy failed, when things didn't happen as scheduled throughout history, instead of reconsidering their views right away, people would would double down and furthermore in the face of disconfirming evidence. And if you've read the book, When Prophecy Fails, there was a brilliant study of him infiltrating a pretty harmless millennial movement that believed that there was going to be a big flood and they were going to be rescued by aliens. And of course, there was all sorts of information to contradict it. And these weren't at all dumb people. I think one was an engineer, there were college students, these people were really bright and they bought into it. And the things that I learned about it that really make people buy into something is one, and you alluded to this, how much am I invested in this? And if you have a friend or a relative that did this, and you cheer them on, or you help maybe you, Maybe you gave your child his or her first injection of the cross-sex hormones, and you bragged to your neighbors or whatever, or you had a relative doing this. That's a lot of cognitive dissonance. And it's true that I talked to a fair amount of people that are trans-identified, and they're so personally invested in it that it's going to be tough for any of them to get away from this. I'm surprised anyone ever detransitions for that reason. And I think that's something we're seeing now in the wake of the CAS review, for example, and the systematic reviews from Finland and Sweden, that we're seeing what you'd expect people to do according to this theory, not being less likely to believe it, but just really doubling down on this ideology.

Stephanie Winn: You make a really good point there about considering how invested this person is in rationalizing their choices and beliefs to themselves. This is another situation that I've walked families through. For example, when a family is concerned about one of their children who may not be trans identified, but who is a social justice activist, who is, let's say, enabling their trans identified child or enabling their trans identified partner. And I found myself listening to these stories and thinking, Your social justice warrior kid who you keep trying to talk to about this who doesn't want to listen to you, your kid might actually have injected someone with cross-sex hormones as I'm listening to the story. The act of doing something like that while having an ego construct of I am a good person or I am a smart person, of course, you're going to get that huge type of reaction.

Stephen Scaer: And because this has become the state religion for many of us, transgenderism, you meet a lot of people that consider themselves very virtuous and their dedication to this cause of medically transitioning children is what makes them a good person. And it's too horrible to contemplate that they might be just causing lifelong harm.

Stephanie Winn: Yeah. So when you see signs that a person is doubling or tripling down, signs of cognitive dissonance, do you have any communication strategies that allow you to gain any kind of traction with the person in that situation?

Stephen Scaer: Of course, it depends on the temperament of the person that I'm talking to. The first thing that I try to do is to listen to them and just try to ask a few questions. And I had a really good conversation outside of Dartmouth Health is a big gender clinic near me, so they've got a nice sidewalk to stand on. And I stood there, and while I was standing there, I tweeted about it, and enough people in New Hampshire, not a really populated state, will see I'm doing that. And someone locally saw that and came down just to stare at me from across the street to try to unnerve me. And when I was done, because I was standing there when the cars were all leaving the clinic, and I wanted to wait for the evening employees to get out. And I just went over and said, hi, how are you doing? And he told me that I was, I've read your articles. I said, okay, what do you think? Well, I think you're stupid, but I think you're a pretty good writer. It's like, all right, I'll take that. And he said, I said, if you've heard everything that I have to say, then there's nothing I'm going to tell you now. He said, no, there isn't. I don't think we'd get anywhere by talking with each other. I said, well, wait, because I haven't heard what you've had to say. And with anything, as you know, if people want to be listened to, if you feel like you're not going to listen to them, then you're not going to get anywhere. And when people see my videos on Twitter or the rare times that I'll go out with someone with me, They'll know all of the answers. They'll have all of the statistics online. They'll know about what's happening in Europe. They'll know about disorders of sexual development. And they'll just want to answer every question and give a lecture on that. You don't get anywhere with that. If someone's just going to have a temper tantrum at me, well, to be honest, I'm happy because I'm using that on Twitter.

Stephanie Winn: I think I might have lost track of what you were saying there. You're saying if someone knows all the facts and statistics, they won't get anywhere. You mean someone on our side of the issue or someone?

Stephen Scaer: Yes, yes, yes. Someone on our side of the issue. People will come and they'll say, why didn't you say this? Why didn't you ask? Why didn't you ask that? And occasionally I've gone out with someone who knows the material really, really well. And then they see someone that disagrees with them, and they want to give them a lecture. One way was a situation, and they're perfectly nice people, where I was seeing people from the opposite point of view coming up and having signs, and they weren't bothering me at all. But I thought, well, I'll go over and I'll hear them out. and see if we can get somewhere. And someone close behind me started following and just just started giving them a lecture. And everything this person said was spot on. It was absolutely correct. But people don't like to be lectured. So they tuned out. We lost them right away. And as I said, most people, if they're angry at you, there's a very good chance they've been hurt by this. And you've got to or they'll tell you about the relative that they had. And so that's a bad thing to do, is not, yeah, why are you upset? Why do you think I'm an asshole? Just hearing that, and then you can get somewhere. And that's been especially important that, I get a fair, people say, ever talk to trans people? Of course I do. And if I'm at, I'll try to go to, the big festivals in the area. I'm in New Hampshire, so we've got a lot of tourism. We've got a lot of great festivals, like our various pumpkin harvest festivals. And I'll go there and teenagers will come and talk to me. And a lot of them are, they identify as trans, and no one has ever given them another perspective. And no one's really listened to their own doubts about it. So if I'm willing to listen, not lecture, then I can have some good conversations.

Stephanie Winn: Wow, that's huge. You've made some really important points there. So one is listen, not lecture, right? That it's not just about quantity of information. Yes, those of us on the gender critical side do have a lot of information. I've talked to a lot of parents. I've actually spoken to multiple parents who have said the same thing. They said something along the lines of, I feel like I have an honorary PhD in gender studies because of how much research they've had to do to understand what's happening to their kid. It's sort of like the relationship between income and happiness, where money can buy happiness up to a certain point. Once you have everything you need, more money does not buy you more happiness. There's the same thing with information. There's a certain amount of information, sort of an onboarding process you need if you're, let's say, a parent who's new to this. Your kid told you he or she was trans two weeks ago, and now you're reading all the books and listening to all the podcasts and getting your facts straight. But once you reach a certain point in terms of, having your facts straight, then it's not that more is better. So that's for one thing. But then in terms of your communication with other people, it's definitely not that more is better. It's much more about strategy and understanding the emotion that's driving people's choices. So when you talk about how people have been hurt by this or that they have cognitive dissonance because something about this threatens their sense of identity, that's the sticking point that we want to work with, right? And I love that you hear people out on what their concerns are. And then from there, once people feel heard, then they might perhaps be more amenable to information.

Stephen Scaer: Well, something that I'm not sure I agree about is if you're talking about me and for what I do, and you probably know this, that I can't ever stop learning because people are often coming up with really bad statistics and bad studies. And some of these people will, who buy into this, really will want to talk to me. I think this is especially true about, say, trans-identifying people who have autism, and they seem like they're very, very programmable. They love the science, they just love the numbers, and they're saying the new ones. And that's probably the most boring part of my job is from hearing from activists the same statistics again and again, like the 1% regret rate, which they turn into, which is meaningless, and they turn that into a detransition rate. And then they'll bring up the knee surgery studies. They'll do that. And now we've got with a CAST report right away, the doctor CAST rejected 98% of the studies. And for anything, any information you give them, they've been programmed to say bunked and widely discredited. So you do need to be able to respond to these things.

Stephanie Winn: Yeah. Actually, can I make a clarifying point about when I say to parents, like I remember in this past week, I've actually said something to a parent that was like this. I was like, congratulations, you have earned your PhD in this subject. You can now catch your breath and regroup and we're going to focus on working smarter, not harder. I think part of that is coming from a place of seeing how burnt out and stressed out these parents are and noticing that if you are staying up all night, losing sleep, researching this issue, if you are constantly freaking out, you're not going to have the fortitude and presence of mind to recognize opportunities that come up naturally in the course of family life to actually make some progress with your kid. You have to be able to take care of yourself. So I think I just wanted to add that clarifying comment. But for those of us like you and me, who this is our job, not just helping our kid, but helping everyone else with their kids too, yeah, it's good to be armed with knowledge for sure. So actually, let's take some of those points that you mentioned. So when someone says, oh, but only 1% of people regret or 1% detransition or knee surgery, regret rates are higher. What do you say to that?

Stephen Scaer: Well, depending on and I've got a gauge. how much patience this person has, because if I give the full answer to that, it's going to be pretty dull and their eyes are going to glaze over. They're just really, really happy with the statistic. So I'm just going to say that the biggest factor with that is that we're talking about the satisfaction of adults with their surgery. We're not talking about young people, we're talking about 15-year-old girls who've been watching social media and all of a sudden want to get puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones and we're wearing a binder. This is an entirely different demographic. Or in this angle that I've seen Freisha Mosley take is that the objective of health care isn't not regret, it's health. And what we need to be looking at is Is their mental health improving? And the systematic reviews that we have say no, there's no improvement in mental health through that one.

Stephanie Winn: Yeah. Okay, let me add to that toolkit for anyone who's thinking of using some of these talking points. So I would say that the actual rate of regret or detransition is unclear for a number of reasons, one being that there are no ICD codes in the medical system for tracking detransition. I think there should actually be several codes because there need to be codes for you know, a history of having taken puberty blockers, a history of having taken testosterone, estrogen, you know, estradiol, spironolactone, all these different drugs, and then a history of having various surgeries, and then the psychological regret or the ideological detransition, that's a psychological factor that's just one of many, there are a lot of people somewhere in between. But we're not tracking these outcomes, that's one. We also know there was a study that found about a 30% discontinuation rate after four years of our cross-sex hormone prescriptions. There's a lot more we could say on that subject, but I really love what you just said about Prisha Mosley's point. When we're looking at health in general, for me, it's enough of a point that the all-cause mortality is higher. And that includes death by suicide, it includes almost every kind of disease, you know, cancer, diabetes and other metabolic disorders, bone health disorders, cardiovascular disorders, you name it. All-cause mortality is higher. And so, yeah, I'm not… I mean, I think the subject of regret is important because it's a source of psychological pain. And it's very relevant to counseling, but it's also super subjective and we need to look at things that are objective if we're going to make good policy decisions.

Stephen Scaer: Well, something I've been thinking about more and maybe talking about more with people that talk to me, and it's more often with people far more often people stop who agree with me and who want to talk about these things. And a lot of them are asking for information. They'll run some of the statistics past me to get my response. And I try to keep my website up, sidewalksteve.org. I'm constantly writing. That's a big thing that I'm doing. And I keep my articles there for reference for people to rebut these things. We work very hard to have the links. I'm worried much more about the young people who don't detransition, who keep on doing it. And they'll cut their lives short and they'll go to the graves. And I'm sure that you've gone to, say, the Reddit sites, and you've seen, if you go to the rfemale2male, that these women are putting, and young girls, some of them are very young, just putting themselves through absolute torture with binders and the hormones. And the side effects, they discuss the same painful side effects that, and some of them are awful, maybe too graphic for me to describe here, that detransitioners have described. The rib pain, the atrophy of the reproductive systems, and having a urinary system of a much older person. the having the cramps and the inevitable hysterectomies they're gonna have. But what keeps, and I have from, I do talk to the trans-identified people that are often men who identify as women, who often have autism, and right away you see that they're autistic. And they aren't gonna leave this, first of all, because this is a source of love for them. If I, there's one young man I've talked to a few times in Concord, and we have good conversations, Because I have my sign, the local women think I'm oppressing him and they'll come by and they'll give him hugs or whatever and join the conversation, which is fine, but they're love bombing him. And because of autism being what it is, and so many of these young women and men having autism and being so rigid in their thinking, and their lack of theory of mind, having other point of view. I worry much more about these people that are going to stay in. So I'm not a big fan of using detransition as a metric of how well these young people are faring.

Stephanie Winn: Yeah. I mean, definitely health-wise, they're going to suffer more and more as the years go on. And then psychologically, again, like the cognitive dissonance, the various defense and coping mechanisms for rationalizing their choices to themselves. So I don't go on Reddit. I feel like I follow enough accounts on Twitter of people who take screenshots of things on Reddit, and that's where I get my information about what's happening on Reddit. Same thing with TikTok. The only reason I will go on TikTok is if I saw a reel on Instagram and I want to see if I can download that video and share it, I will find it on TikTok. That's about it. You know, that being said, like, there's a trans FTM influencer named Austin. who has been, people have been sharing videos of her phalloplasty, her conversations that she's having with the internet about phalloplasty. You see these stories and you're like, okay, this person is not coming out and saying, I made a mistake and I'm not sure if this was worth it in the end. They're not coming out and saying that, but the things they are saying about what they've been through, you're just like, at what point is this person going to question, was this necessary? Am I really better off this way? There's just so many things like that out there.

Stephen Scaer: Many of these people will go to their graves without losing this identity. Unfortunately, without going into many details, I know this from very close personal experience, rather than lose this identity. And of course, people will drive for their religion or their tribes. And even if you, looking around a little bit, if you do go to some of the TikTok videos, and I appreciate you not wasting your time doing that, You'll come across people that detransition and they'll say, well, I still believe in this, that they're transgender people and they buy into this. This was a stage of my gender journey. They don't want to be alienated from the only group they feel at home in. And people with autism, there really wasn't a whole lot for them. They often do end up being very socially isolated. And that would be a lot for them to give up.

Stephanie Winn: Totally. You know, this is an opportunity I'm realizing for me to talk about a recent experience I had that I'm still processing. I went to a concert to see a folk singer songwriter that my fiance and I listened to. And we didn't know there was going to be an opener. And so we get there and there's an opener. And we see this woman walk on stage who looks very butch. And we kind of look at each other like, is this a woman who thinks she's a man? Is that what we're seeing here? And then she starts singing. And we're like, wow, she has an amazing voice. It's definitely in the low range for a woman. But a woman could have such a low voice naturally. And then she introduces herself. And meanwhile, I'm looking her up. And she has, I will just say, a female first name. I'm like, okay, old school lesbian. All right, maybe here's a woman who accepts that she's female and then she starts saying, I wrote the song for my wife and yada, yada. We're just like, lesbians still exist. Cool, cool. Then she shares this song with and she starts to introduce this song and she says something like, this is a song about me grappling with my body and my gender. And so by this point, my fiance and I are just staring at each other like, this could go any number of ways. And she starts singing this like really kind of deep, dark song where she keeps singing, singing over and over, am I on the wrong path? And I'm like in tears because I'm like, she's a desister. This is about her grappling with gender dysphoria and like being about to go down the path of like, transing herself and having doubts and she channeled in this song about am I on the wrong path and so I'm like in tears and I'm like oh my gosh I have to talk to her like and then I look her up on Instagram and it says she they and I'm like Do I? Okay. By the time she finished her set, I was like, I'm going to go talk to her and I was tweeting about it and people are like, what do you mean talk to the musician? Well, it's because I go to small concerts and I talk to the musicians because there's like 100 people there. It's a thing I do, but I had an opportunity kind of to talk to her, but she was cornered and then before we know it, the main act was on and then we were tired and it was time to go home. I missed my opportunity to talk to her, but it got me thinking. I was processing it for a few days and here's my opportunity to process it that here's one of these people whose life probably does not neatly fit into any one sort of narrative box, right? Because I, in my world that I come from, I'm like, is she a de-sister? You know, and I'm fitting her into that box, but then on Instagram, she's a she-they. And so what I'm thinking, I can only guess, is that yes, she is a de-sister, but she's not a radical feminist turf. She's not anti-gender ideology, at least not publicly. Publicly, she's a she-they, but she seems like someone who was maybe grappling with the idea of medicalizing and chose not to, and somebody who, as a lesbian, presumably has been surrounded with friends going down that path. I think there are a lot of stories that don't get accounted for in the culture wars, and there's probably a lot of people in between. And I just hope that the culture shifts enough to make a safe space for them to, you know, maybe be a little more outward with their concerns. Not just to say, Oh yeah, that path wasn't right for me, but that path wasn't right for me. And I honestly question if it's right for my friends too.

Stephen Scaer: I hope for that shift, too. Something that makes it a bit tougher to leave is, and it gets back to Festinger's book, that when prophecy fails, the first book about cognitive dissonance, is when it was really like the final chance for the aliens to pick the group up. And it didn't come. And at this point, we've already had chance and chance again. This just isn't true. The people that finally threw in the towel were the people that were away by themselves when the alien ship didn't land. But the people who are with other believers still, even long after this, when they did the follow-up, believed there was something going on, believed it was true. And if you do go to any of these Reddit sites, you'll see that one of the big reasons that people go on is for the reassurance. And so I hate to see a 14-year-old girl saying, am I trans? I really liked feminine things growing up. And I kind of fit the stereotype of I didn't feel uncomfortable until my breasts started growing and I went through puberty. Or I'm having doubts because my boyfriend doesn't say, if I transition, he doesn't want to be considered gay. And I'm estranged from my family. And they'll all get pushed in. And the sense of belonging, this need to be belonging, it's easy to forget how powerful that is, especially for young people with autism or have been through trauma.

Stephanie Winn: Absolutely. And what's so crazy is that someone like you or I could not go onto these forums and give them better advice. We'd be kicked off, moderated, or dogpiled. The activists are allowed to groom these kids night and day. Whether you're a longtime or first-time listener of the podcast, odds are you're just as concerned as I am about the gender ideology crisis that's affecting today's youth. What you may not be as aware of is another insidious practice occurring in med school classrooms, practitioners' offices, and hospitals alike. The discriminatory practices that focus on race instead of qualifications of healthcare providers. These universities, associations, and sometimes even states are breaking federal laws in their racially discriminatory practices, and one group is holding them accountable, Do No Harm. Do No Harm's membership-based organization is fighting so that patients get the best quality service, and so that today's med students succeed as tomorrow's medical providers. If you're a medical provider, I encourage you to join Do No Harm today. Learn more and sign up at donoharmmedicine.org slash sometherapist. That's donoharmmedicine.org slash sometherapist. Let's talk about the suicide narrative. That was so just for listeners context. I originally invited Steve onto this podcast way back in October. Excuse me, Steven. I do that. Sometimes it takes a while to get people on this show. I know that he had said something back then about how he deals with the suicide narrative that made me reach out and say, hey, let's talk about this, but I forgot to save the link. That being said, you and I both in many different contexts are very accustomed to talking about this and I have had requests to do episodes on this. I try to talk about it here and there. I'd imagine that when you are out there on the streets, one of those common responses is the dead daughter, live son, or you're killing children, or trans people kill themselves, blah, blah, blah. How does that usually go? How do you respond to it?

Stephen Scaer: That's a tougher one because often I'll get people saying that, and this happened to me just a week ago, your sign kills children. So even me, and that justifies people using anything, any means at all, to silence someone who's speaking out against what's happening to kids. Because even saying it is causing people to commit suicide. And those people say that, get in my face, and either run away, and I'll be sitting there seeing as they're running away saying, oh, do you want to talk about it? They usually don't want to talk about it. So that's a tough one. And it's a horrible thought for for them because suicide is about the only thing that would justify what they're putting young people through that's been so effective. And the thing that got me really involved in it is having a background in sociology and also as an educator and have to do their suicide prevention trainings is just hearing just the incredible fabrications from people that are supposed to be the experts in this, the specialists who are testifying on bills and any sort of counseling, psychological association, all repeating this awful suicide myth.

Stephanie Winn: I think you brought up a really important point there, which is that, yes, someone would need to be at serious risk of death to justify this level of intervention. So one of the quotes from me that was used in the film that I was featured in last year, No Way Back, The Reality of Gender Affirming Care, was that the level of medical so-called treatment that is being used on people in the name of treating gender dysphoria is as invasive and consequential as the type of medical treatments that would be used for the treatment of something like cancer, right? These are harsh, consequential drugs and surgeries. In case of cancer, it is literally life-saving care, meaning if you don't get it, you might die. Whereas we're talking about healthy children. So yes, there has to be what you and I know to be made up threat of death in order to justify otherwise shortening someone's lifespan, right? If you don't have the suicide narrative, it just all falls apart. And I hear your dilemma that these people don't want to talk about it. But how would you talk about it if someone was open to talking about it?

Stephen Scaer: Well, once in a while, people will stop and talk to me about it. And sometimes it's people that are feeling some sort of coercion from it. Say, one typical situation I'll have is someone who's got a brother or sister who's younger than them, who's planning on going through these treatments or starting these treatments, or people in divorces, and the spouse is putting the child through these treatments, signing on for it, and they'll ask me about it. And I'll tell them what we know and what you know, that they looked at the world's largest clinic. Most people who are listening here probably know about the Tavistock, which was finally closed last month. And they looked at all the suicides there. And over the course, I think it was 15 years, found that, I'm sorry, 10 years, and 15,000 people found a total of four suicides, that it's really very rare. And we also have Dr. Kaltialla of Finland saying, too, that the suicide's really rare and signing on with 20 other physicians challenging the Endocrine Society for claiming that their treatments of these hormones reduce suicide, and the U.S. Medical Society's refusing to respond to that. And now, of course, we've got this being addressed in the CAST review very specifically, that suicide's still a rare event. And what's shown consistently in what information we have is Yeah, for trans-identified youth, the suicide rate's about four times the average, but it's still a rare, rare event. It's something, but something I think I'll get more specific at and what gets quoted at me the most are the Trevor Project surveys. And of course, those things are ridiculous to begin with. They've got, here's an online survey that's solicited. And so they're asking people, a political group is asking young people to fill it out. and then they count suicidality as suicide. So one problem is that you're constantly telling these kids suicidal, which I think has resulted in suicides in my state. I have good reason to believe that. I was at an event in Milford that I was talking about regarding a rally regarding restrictions in the bathroom, and they gathered trans-identified youth there, and one of the local advocacy agencies was doing a a rally and a show of hands. How many of you were suicidal before because you were transgender? A show of hands. And of course, they raise their hands. How many of you are less suicidal because you have gender affirming care? They raise their hands. So they're asking kids that have been taught this once a year if they're suicidal or not suicidal. But then just going into it and looking at it and something that I didn't know until I looked at it, I wanted to look at the actual numbers. So they've got the suicide rate that they're giving you is 41% of young of LGBT youth seriously considered suicide. So I looked it up. Well, let's look at the Youth Risk Survey that they give all, the CDC gives all children, I'm just looking at these numbers right now in front of me to look at that, seriously considering suicide. And it's 17% of all students, I'm sorry, 22% of all young people, of all of them, have seriously considered suicide, of all high school kids, but twice as many girls as boys. And when you get through the attempted suicides, the attempted suicide rate, people that say that they've attempted suicide in the last 12 months, then it's 2.9% of all students have tried to do it. But obviously, we don't have suicide attempts that high. I've got to take that back. It's actually 12% of all students reported that they attempted suicide according to you through a survey. So these are astronomical numbers. And saying that you attempted suicide, a lot of times it ends up being things that are common and not great, but things like cutting to get attention, trying to do that. But the clinicians are repeating these. I don't know how many times I've been in hearings, in state house hearings, and the physicians, particularly from Dartmouth Health, as we'll start out the story, I've been at the emergency room talking to a young man who was bleeding from suicide attempts, and this is what happened. So they're playing this up. And we know that it's a really rare, rare occurrence now. But the other thing I didn't know until I looked at the number is even though twice as many girls will say they thought about suicides as boys, twice as many girls will say they attempted suicide, the suicide rate for males is four times as high as the suicide rate for females. So this suicidality I felt like suicide. I felt like committing suicide. I thought about it. I came up with a plan. I attempted it. They're meaningless.

Stephanie Winn: Just to make sure we're getting our facts straight, you said the number for the amount of high school students in this survey who claim to have attempted suicide in the last 12 months was 2.9 percent or 12 percent? 2.9 percent.

Stephen Scaer: It was, I'm sorry, I'm looking at which ones went to the hospital. So this gets interesting. Of all students, it's 10.2% reported they attempted suicide. And 2.9 of all of them had a suicide attempt that resulted in hospitalization. So thanks for that clarification. 10.2% of all high school students said they reported that they had attempted suicide, 13.3% of them were were girls, and then 6.6% were boys that said they attempted suicide. So it's almost always twice as many girls as boys in these self-reports.

Stephanie Winn: And then when you start allowing people to self-identify, then you start getting confused about sex statistics. Like when we say girls, do we mean girls? Okay, I mean those numbers, I would say the attempt numbers are worryingly high. The actual completed suicide rate is low, and as you've pointed out, Females are more likely to engage in what we call para-suicidal behavior or non-suicidal self-injury, some of which gets reported as suicidal, some of which doesn't. Males are less likely to engage in those behaviors, more likely to engage in completed suicide attempts by lethal methods such as firearm, whereas girls might be more likely to cut and take pills and things like that. I mean, I do think we have a serious problem on our hand when one out of ten high school students has recorded some level of attempt. Now, again, what gets classified as an attempt, I don't know that here. There might be things that are miscategorized, and this is based on self-report. Still, those numbers are concerning. But, you know, what it does not mean, though, is that people who believe they are trans have an immutable soul that is the opposite sex from their body and that the reason they are feeling this way or having these thoughts is because they are trans and that going through these medical procedures, affirmation, and transition will fix the problem. That's what is completely lacking in evidence and I think you're right that there's a huge problem with social contagion and suggestibility here that you're talking about a population that has been told over and over that they that having suicidal thoughts and feelings is a sign that they're trans and they've been socially incentivized to believe they are trans and so there's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy here which is part of why it's so irresponsible to speak about this so recklessly and I'm sure you've heard horror stories just like I have of you know, therapists saying to parents in front of kids that if you don't affirm your child, she will be at high risk of suicide, things like that, sometimes suggesting it when the kid hadn't even said it. But even if the kid had said it, still, that is using a professional's authority to reinforce the idea that this kid has gone from their friends and from TikTok influencers that they really have no other option, which is just such an irresponsible way to talk about it. And again, what I what I come back to is, look, higher all cause mortality after medicalization, period. If you're worried about people being harmed, we should try to steer them away from this path. And the idea that the suicide prevalence or higher risk is due to minority stress, we can look to the stress faced by other minority populations or by others who have experienced hardship and oppression to see, hmm, is it really true that you know, hardship, oppression, or being a minority makes people want to give up on life, because actually it tends to, tends to strengthen the will to live in a lot of cases. We just don't see that data anywhere else.

Stephen Scaer: One thing that gets people, another thing that gets people really upset about the suicide and why they're, why they're using it is because this, this is a religion with a very specific creed and there's some tenets you can't question. One is the minority stress model. and the other is the suicide. I used to give my local gender clinics the benefit of the doubt as this was coming up, that maybe they haven't looked at this stuff. An endocrinologist in this area wrote an op-ed where she made it very clear that she's using this on parents. She asked the parents if the child wasn't was 17, and she promises the child that the child's going to go on the cross-sex hormones as soon as he or she turns 18, which is not something I'm pleased with either, and tells the parents that, well, I hope he or she makes it to the 18th birthday. But something that Lira Seyper pointed out that is, and I'm looking at it right now, there was a handbook, an LGBT prevention handbook published in 2017. pretty recently. And so the groups like the Trevor Project and GLAAD signed on to it. And it said very, very specifically, don't attribute suicide death to a, and I'm reading it here, suicide death to a single factor, such as bullying or discrimination, or say that a specific LGBT law or policy will cause suicide, linking suicide directly to external factors like bullying, discrimination, where anti-LGBT laws can normalize suicide and don't risk spreading false information by receiving, repeating unsubstantiated rumors or speculation about suicide deaths. And every hearing that I go to, that's exactly what they're doing. They don't care anymore. They know better than this, but they're repeatedly telling. Kids are suicidal. After one hearing last year, I just started looking at the transcript from the hearing. did a word count on suicide, and I got 66 hits. They use it on parents, they use it on legislatures. And over the past year, we had two young people trans-identified, very young, I think early teens, and both of them jumped off of overpasses into traffic. And I was wondering, you're teaching these kids, one, they're suicidal. First of all, then after the first one happened, it ended up being ghoulishly celebrated as proof that this is an oppressed class. So I wondered if the second suicide was caused by the first because it gets broadcasted about. They're so specific about sharing these suicides.

Stephanie Winn: Yeah, we're teaching kids that they're suicidal. The way the people are talking about it is so irresponsible, but I was surprised to learn of something that I and the Trevor Project actually agree on when you read that passage. This is from their own policy. Presumably, there is at least someone in a position of influence there who is aware that if you care about protecting so-called LGBT youth, although I'm sure you and I are both in the LGB divorce the T camp, if you care about this population that you view as one single cohort, then absolutely you need to be more responsible in how you speak about it. To me, as a mental health professional, it's just unconscionable that anyone would ever encourage vulnerable people to think that their ability to preserve their own life and look out for their own best interest is contingent upon what anyone else is willing to do or not willing to do for them, whatever it might be. Because, I mean, if it were, you know, someone threatening suicide over not getting what they want with regard to anything else in life, then I think the average responsible citizen, layperson, want to speak of mental health clinician would say, you know, this is really up to you to find that will to live within yourself and not to let external circumstances, which will come and go and which are outside of your control, be the determining factor in your, you know, I think we have to name that this is a manipulation.

Stephen Scaer: I'm agreeing with you. And it's not just blackmailing the parents when you're talking about They're teaching kids that they don't have any agency over their own happiness, that their entire happiness depends on getting this gender identity, this gendered soul fully affirmed. And if they're not happy, it's because they're not sufficiently affirming it. So they've got to put their bodies in the hands of medical industry. That's their only hope for happiness and avoiding suicide that these young people are getting blackmailed to.

Stephanie Winn: I think any parent with intact parental instincts, no matter how flawed of a human being, the natural reaction if your kid were to make that threat is to say, not under my watch, you're not. If I have to sleep in your bedroom, if I have to take off the bedroom door, if I have to follow you around wherever you go, as my child, you are not ending your life." Then you try to get accurate information about what level of threat are we talking? Are we bluffing? Are we manipulating? Are you really saying that you feel that way? Unfortunately, the whole other can of worms is what happens if you take your kid to the hospital because I'm sure you've heard some horror stories as I have because the normal response in any other time besides this crazy time we're living in is, you know, if you're really serious about that, then I'm taking you to the hospital. Unfortunately, parents can't trust hospitals now because what we've all seen, anyone who's paying attention in the gender critical world has seen this, that the hospital will make the trans identity the whole focus of the treatment stay. and they will keep the kid longer than necessary and have family meetings that are basically about pressuring the parents into affirming because the hospital staff is completely bought onto the narrative and then they're not actually getting the help they need. They're not getting a proper diagnosis, evaluation. You know, they're, they're not working with the family in any meaningful way. It just becomes, the kid learns from this experience that they can go to this hospital and have a bunch of strangers give them what their parents won't give them and pressure their parents into giving them what they want. And then, okay, what happens next time? There's a conflict over pronouns or binders or whatever. You end up back in the hospital. And what we call people who develop a pattern of threatening suicide to get what they want, over time, we label them with personality disorders. And the lifelong prognosis for people with personality disorders tends to be quite poor, unless you're one of those high-functioning narcissists that becomes very powerful and successful in your career. But that's not what we're talking about here. We are talking about people who use suicide threats to get what they want. And those types of people end up, again, for a shortened lifespan, higher all-cause mortality, problems with unemployment, problems with relational instability, and so on and so forth.

Stephen Scaer: That's the beauty of the affirmative care model and the minority stress model, isn't it?

Stephanie Winn: That it pushes people to develop personality disorders?

Stephen Scaer: No, for the clinics that are doing this, that are making the money, that you don't have to do… I'm not a therapist, but anyone who who is that here's your really quick, simple solution. You don't have to do the hard work. You don't have to be competent. If you read the 2016 Gender Policy by the American Academy of Pediatrics that Rafferty seems to, Jason Rafferty seems to have written by himself, everything is attributable to the minority stress of having an unaffirmed gender identity. One of his colleagues that you've probably seen, Jack Turbin, wrote a paper that's getting more into what I do, working with autistic kids. He said that even the symptoms of autism could be caused by the unaffirmed gender identity. So when they come in, their job is to affirm the gender identity. It's not to do any exploratory work.

Stephanie Winn: And that's now a cure for autism. Wow, that's wonderful.

Stephen Scaer: And in New Hampshire, and I've had some disagreements with people that we, the conversion therapy ban that we have, that exploratory therapy may well be a crime, if it's seen as any attempt to change someone's gender identity.

Stephanie Winn: Yeah, yeah, it's just, what point do we just boycott the mental health field and, you know, thousands of us decide to abandon our licenses in protest. If you're looking for a simple way to take better care of yourself, check out Organifi. I start every day with a glass of their original green juice powder mixed with water. It contains moringa, ashwagandha, chlorella, spirulina, matcha, wheatgrass, beets, turmeric, mint, lemon, and coconut water. 100% organic with no added sugar. It's the best tasting superfood supplement I've ever tried. It's super easy to make and it makes me feel good. Organifi also makes several other delicious and nutritious superfood blends such as red juice, immune support, protein powders, a golden milk mix, and even superfood hot cocoa. Check out the collection at Organifi.com slash Sumtherapist. That's O-R-G-A-N-I-F-I dot com slash Sumtherapist. And use code Sumtherapist to take 20% off your order. Well, okay. So I promised listeners that we would try to give them practical tools. So with the remaining time that we have, I am curious, Steve, if you want to share any either talking points or communication strategies that you use to persuade people.

Stephen Scaer: One thing that I have to be very careful about is these articles. And when I'm having these discussions, if someone wants to talk with me, it's not going off in one of their little Socratic dialogues, which takes me far, far away. It's a distraction. So for example, if I'll ask someone, what is a gender identity? How do you know that you have one? They'll say, how do you know that you are a man? And they want to take me off there. Is there a time in the morning? And the answer is, it doesn't matter. You just got a sticker. Please answer my question. What is a boy? What is a girl? And not getting caught up in the sophistries. My other concern, and people differ with me about this, is not to get involved. You start using the language. If you start using the language, you make concessions. I've spent most of my day listening to testimonies from the New Hampshire State House on two bills, and people were talking about, for example, transgender female athletes. What the heck does that mean? What's a female, where people start using the pronouns? Because I knew that we were in trouble the first time I heard someone referring to a transvestite as a trans woman. I knew that the whole trans woman or woman thing was on the way. You're saying this is a type of woman not to engage in the language. The other things I'd like people to take advantage of is You mentioned, what if you bring up something that people don't want to hear about, like suicide that we've talked about at length, or just the whole idea of gender ideology, that this is an ideology. What is a gender identity? The people that are against, that believe in medical transition to minors push this stuff, and they often don't want to hear these things. But if you go to a legislative hearing, you go to a school board, you go to your library, they have to hear you. And not enough people are taking advantage of the opportunity to talk to two or three minutes without being interrupted by doing that. So not getting involved in sophistries, listening to people, not using the language of this cult that denies the reality, and just to use your voice in the public forums where it matters, speaking up there. And just related to that and addressing this, I don't know, one of my biggest frustrations, I mentioned most people agree with me. And I've got my camera on too, that people will agree with me and they'll often be very intelligent people with good jobs and they'll say, I'll say, why don't you speak out about it? You know, you can make a little 15 second video for me right now and you could share, your friends would see it. Oh no, no, people will see at my work. I work at such and such a housing agency and I'll lose my job. I can appreciate the concern about that, but a lot of these are the same people that are, they've got the Gadsden don't tread on me signs and they'll be the same people that post about 1776. And so they idealize people that were willing to fight and give their lives for their country and for truth, justice in the American way. But they're worried about getting feedback from their jobs. They speak about kids getting sterilized and permanently harmed So just speak up, have the courage to use your voice.

Stephanie Winn: So for anyone who is considering testifying for the first time, I've done it a few times. I've done it. in person and remotely in Oregon. I might have done it in some other states that I can't recall. And then most recently, I testified remotely in Alaska in support of House Bill 338, which basically creates provisions for minors who were harmed by gender medicine to sue doctors up to 20 years down the line. I would say if I were giving advice to anyone who's considering doing that, just write out your speech and prepare to feel like there's a lump in your throat and your heart is pounding out your chest and your stomach is falling through the floor. But read what you wrote to your representatives because like you said, they're obligated to hear you. Do you have any advice for anyone who's considering testifying for the first time, Steven?

Stephen Scaer: Yes. First of all, you're going to find out how much time you have. Usually it's three minutes. Sometimes it gets cut down to two. Don't try to cram everything into the three minutes because people don't need to hear that much. And if it's a lot, some of these hearings go on for, they can go on for six, seven hours and they're not going to hear that much. Two, Don't try to come up with a whole lot of statistics. I mean, that's who I am. So that's something I will do now and again. But even that I'm trying to stay away from. Tell a personal story. Next is Don't come off. It's coming off as frightened as good and people can see how brave you are. If they see you trembling a little bit, and as you say, a lump in your throat, people really, people really respect that. Don't come across as angry or say things that might be construed as hateful because that We're all being characterized into some sort of stereotypes. People like to compare me with a Westboro Baptist Church. So you want to come off as a calm and reasonable person too. And it's always good if you can tell a personal story, too. I'm editing tapes from videos, I shouldn't say tapes, from today's testimonies, and the ones that were really strongest are the ones that just start with personal stories. Like one mom was talking about a girl playing basketball and a really great team, and they found out that A very tall and strong boy was playing in one of the opposite teams, and they decided they just weren't going to play. It wasn't safe. That story hits home, the narratives. And the people that are pushing this know this really well. And that's why you'll hear from every person who identifies as transgender This saved my life. They'll tell a life-saving story. And never mind that the science statistics don't support what they're saying. The personal narratives work. They're great. So come up if you come up. Come up with an honest story and tell that, you're going to do great.

Stephanie Winn: Yeah, you made some good points there. The one about not coming across as angry or using alienating language. I just have to share an anecdote that when I was testifying in person in Oregon, someone I know from online activism testified remotely and we saw the Zoom video in the room, and this person chose to use the language cult in the speech to a room full of Oregonians. And I felt so sick hearing that because while I agree that it is a cult, I mean, this could not be a more tone deaf choice of language. He was absolutely not reading the room. He was, you know, in a different place. So how could he read the room? But still, If you come in saying it's a cult straight off the bat to a room that is very left-leaning, the reaction you're going to get is people are going to groan and roll their eyes and they're going to dismiss everything you have to say after that. Definitely. Also, another one is read the bill. I've heard people give testimonies that were like, vaguely related to the topic of the bill, but they clearly did not understand exactly what the bill was about. So make sure that you're addressing what the bill is about.

Stephen Scaer: That's true. And I took that for granted. And most of them are pretty short. So you can't always rely on the summaries that other people are giving you about the bills, too. And I almost did that myself, too. I made the mistake of that. There is a bill in Colorado. I was hoping that I could make it today. I didn't. But it was a parent's bill of rights. And I thought it was actually a vote for that bill. But it was actually a vote to come up with a referendum for a constitutional vote, a referendum for this. And I was sure I almost sent a message off, a testimony off, without checking it. So yeah, read the bill.

Stephanie Winn: All right. Steve, any final words of wisdom for our audience before we wrap up?

Stephen Scaer: I would just encourage everyone to just use their voices any way they can and speak up. If everyone who came up and talked to me, often really, really quietly, if they all just got the courage to speak up, this would end really quickly. And whatever consequences they think they're going to suffer, if they suffer them, it's absolutely nothing that compares to the stories that you've heard from the detransitioners. Or even if you listen closely to the stories of the people that think they're happy with this, that if you're going to sacrifice, I can't think of a better cause than to sacrifice for children having their bodies and their sexuality destroyed and maybe having their living lives in absolute lifelong pain. So please speak up.

Stephanie Winn: Okay, and you know what? I'm going to include in the show notes, since we did talk about testimony in the show notes, I will include a video of me giving testimony in person in Oregon, as well as a tweet in which I shared basically the speech that I read when I testified recently in Alaska, as well as any links that you want me to share. They'll be in there as well. So, Stephen, where can people find you?

Stephen Scaer: Sidewalksteve.org. That'll have links to my email account and to my Twitter, so it's easy to catch me there. You can also find me on Twitter, where I spend way too much time, at Sidewalk underscore Steve. So you can find me there on X, my X account, I should say now.

Stephanie Winn: All right, Steve, and thank you. It's been a pleasure. I hope you enjoyed this episode of You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist podcast. To check out my book recommendations, articles, wellness products, guest episodes on other podcasts, consulting services, and lots more, visit SomeTherapist.com or follow me on Twitter or Instagram at SomeTherapist. If you'd like to go deeper, join my community at somekindoftherapist.locals.com. Members can dialogue with other listeners, post questions for upcoming podcast guests to respond to, or ask questions for me to respond to in exclusive members-only Q&A live streams. To learn more about the gender crisis, watch our film, No Way Back, The Reality of Gender-Affirming Care, at nowaybackfilm.com. Special thanks to Joey Pecoraro for our theme song, Half Awake. If you appreciate this podcast and want more people to find it, kindly take a moment to rate, review, like, comment, and share on your platforms of choice. Of course, just because I am some therapist doesn't mean I'm your therapist. This podcast is not a substitute for medical advice. If you need help, ask your doctor or browse your local therapists online. And whatever you do next, please take care of yourself. Eat well, sleep well, move your body, get outside, and tell someone you love them. You're worth it.