You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist

Swell AI Transcript: 115. Black Fathers FINAL.mp3
Adam B Coleman:
One of the myths is that fathers are just pay pigs. We're just here to be an economic source for the family and for kids. We're optional. The other thing is that we don't enjoy raising our kids. This idea that fathers don't change diapers. Like we kind of have this archaic 1950s persona of a father as just this guy who shows up at home at 6 p.m. after being at work all day, make him some dinner, and he goes to sleep. And that's what being a father is. When in reality, being a father, it's a mixed bag. It's whatever is needed. Sometimes you have to be an emotional support. Sometimes you have to discipline your kids. Sometimes you have to set expectations. You have to do all these things. That's what being a parent is. And I think that the optional concept of what being a father is, is one of the most detrimental things that people believe within our society. You must be some kind of therapist.

Stephanie Winn: Today I am excited to bring you another interesting roundtable discussion. Let's see where it goes. We're going to talk about Black fatherhood in America today. I have three very strong gentlemen here with me, all previous guests of the podcast who I'm excited to reconnect with. This honestly just came about because Jeremiah had me on his podcast recently and I was like, how do I find a way to talk to Jeremiah again soon? So here we are, here we find ourselves. So I'm sitting here with Jeremiah Wallace, Adam B. Coleman, and Mike Bowen, who, if you've been a longtime listener of this podcast, you might have heard previous conversations with these gentlemen. I'm going to go ahead and have everyone introduce themselves just so you as a listener can sort of track whose name belongs to whose voice. We're going to start with Jeremiah.

Jeremiah Wallace: Hey, thanks for having me on, Stephanie. My name is Jeremiah Wallace, and I was on the episode number 75 entitled Navigating the Blended Family Experience, Jeremiah Wallace on Step Parenting.

Stephanie Winn: Thank you. And Adam?

Adam B Coleman: I'm Adam Coleman. I was on episode 19, Black Victim to Black Victor, which is the name of my book. I'm also the founder of Wrong Speak Publishing, if you guys haven't heard of it. And I'm a frequent contributor to the New York Post.

Stephanie Winn: Awesome. And Mike?

Michael DC Bowen: I'm Mike Bowen, Michael David Cobb Bowen. I was on episode 16, Wisdom and World Bridging, also 103, Truth, Hope, and Mental Health. I'll be speaking next month at Heterodox Academy in Chicago, and I'm a founder of Free Black Thought.

Stephanie Winn: So we're going to talk about fatherhood, fatherlessness, and repairing the family, which I think is an issue dear to the heart of everyone here, maybe something that we come together around as well. So I was impacted by fatherlessness. You know, it's not a racial issue, but it is something that has definitely impacted the black community in America. And I know whenever we start to talk about race, it can be a subject that puts people on edge and immediately people start looking for like, how do I put this in a box? Are they going to be woke about this? Are they going to be anti-woke about this? And really what I just want to have is an open-ended conversation about what is best for humanity. And sometimes that tendency to walk on eggshells, to be afraid of saying the wrong thing, I think can keep us from looking at and talking about the things that are hurting, the things that are in need of healing. And some of the ways that these discussions have become so heated in this country has stopped us from looking at those interpersonal factors that are actually hurting people on such a deep personal level. So my own personal background, like I said, I was impacted by fatherlessness. And for me, that was one of the reasons That for me to ultimately feel secure in a relationship with a man, I needed to meet a man who was already being a good father. And that's why I'm a stepparent. And that's what brings me and Jeremiah together. He has a podcast on stepparenting. He's come on my podcast to talk about stepparenting. I think it's something we don't talk about enough. in this society just because I've looked at the statistics and like a third of Americans are in some kind of blended family situations. That's a lot of people. And it's challenging to go from one family to another for families breaking and reconstructing themselves. There are attachment issues. There are loyalty and triangulation issues. And somehow, if we're going to help society heal and help families heal, We have to create space for redemption and renewal in families where people are coming together in new configurations. So that's where Jeremiah and I connect. Adam has shared about his own personal background going from being a fatherless child to stepping up to be a good father to his own child. Mike, we got into some interesting territory last time you spoke on that group podcast episode. I had no idea what was going to come up for you around your experiences of parenting a child with mental health issues. I'm excited to connect with all of you gentlemen today. Thank you so much for being here and welcome. Where should we begin? Anyone have an idea?

Michael DC Bowen: I guess I'll start off. Being a father, first of all, let me just say it made me a better person than I ever thought I'd be. Having children is a kind of love that, I mean, it's like, you can't understand it until you do it. When that little face is looking up at you and smiling, and it will eat anything that you put in its hand, it's just like you feel this love and responsibility. And there are many times, even as a father, where I can remember having that fight with my wife, where I was saying, am I going to stick with this? And just the idea that I would not be a father present just said, I can put up with anything for these kids. These are my kids. And it's just an extraordinary thing. I'm glad it happened to me.

Adam B Coleman: Yeah, I was going to say I feel the same way, especially as a child who didn't have a father in his life. You know, I've said this before. I didn't know what a father looked like. So in some ways, it was kind of a good thing because I was able to construct what kind of father that I wanted and just try to be that for my son instead of automatically repeating what I saw from my father, whether it was good or bad. But I definitely think that having my son at the age of 21 helped me to grow up. a bit more and it put me on edge to take risks to support my son. Not dangerous risks or anything like that, but to not be complacent. I guess that's the best way of putting it. To not be as selfish and want to sacrifice for my son to make sure that he's good. And I think that is a big component that's missing today. I think we have a lot of people who have children, but they're not parents who are willing to sacrifice for the children. Their children just become ornaments in the family. And I think we need more of humility when it comes to being parents, being willing to assess what they're doing. Are they just repeating what their parents did with them? Are they reflecting on their behavior? are they doing things that are unhealthy, but they're just continuing with it because it's easy. And, you know, I've, I've talked publicly about spanking. I partially started doing that because I was spanked as a kid and then I just never felt good with it. And I was able to reflect on it. And at an early age, I, you know, when I say spank, he was very small, so like popping him, but I never liked it. And I, it made me think about when I was a kid, I didn't like getting spanked either. And I always felt like you could have talked to me instead of hit me. And so from that moment, I just decided I wasn't going to do it anymore. And I didn't touch him since. He's 18 now. It would look awkward me trying to spank him now. He's taller than me, but it was a conscious decision. I just said for, for those moments where I would have popped him, I just talked to him more and it just became about communication. But that was me. reflecting on what I had learned as a kid growing up and saying, I don't think this is the best move moving forward. And we've had a great relationship since. And I think he respects me. He doesn't fear me like I'm going to hurt him. He fears disappointing me, which I think is different.

Jeremiah Wallace: That's awesome. Well, I am about to celebrate 10 years of marriage with my wife in the next couple of weeks. And that means I've been a father for 10 years. And I came into the life of my stepchild when she was four years old and coming from a dysfunctional home and had a both present and absent father. And it kind of creates its own little conundrum. You're grateful for the fact that he was there in body. but not present pretty much anywhere else. So there was just a deep aspiration within me to become a father. I aspired toward being a great husband and just serving this small community of people where love and the exchange of respect, information, just all the things fun can be exchanged safely and freely. And then I come into the blended family situation, and I learned very quickly that there is some intrusion, you know, it's a territory that is invaded, so to speak, by outside forces, that being the other family members, the other fathers. So my dream, this picture that I had of just having this thing to myself, it was shattered fairly quickly. You know, when I was younger, I also wanted my own box of cereal, Fruity Pebbles, all to myself. And one day I had that. And it was absolutely incredible. So among those things I looked forward to was my family. And it humbled me extremely. And it was a sink or die type of situation. I had to sink or swim, rather. And I had to fight all of the misconceptions that I had. as well as the insecurities and the fears, all the things just had to face them head on. And you're so right, Adam, as far as the need for men to sacrifice, to lay themselves down, to humble themselves. And I believe there needs to be in order to rectify what's happening in the black community. there needs to be a generation of men that are willing to lay their lives down for this present moment and the moments to follow because the suffrage is so apparent. I strongly believe that if anybody wants to learn the ramifications of fatherlessness, the black community is the best test subject. We are pretty much in a test tube. We can look at it closely and see what's happening within the community. and we can determine very clearly the byproducts of fatherlessness and the chaos and dysfunction that it reaps.

Adam B Coleman: The way I describe fatherlessness and why it's important to be involved in kids' lives, besides it's obvious why you should, but I talk about how we see smoking, right? So yes, you can smoke and not get cancer, but we know that smoking increases the risk of getting cancer. Just because you grew up in a fatherless home doesn't mean that you're going to become homeless, a drug addict, go to prison, not graduate from high school. The list goes on. But it increases the odds of this happening. And there are various reasons why. So from a pragmatic standpoint, I see fatherlessness as like the beginning point to much of our society's biggest. And if we want to stem all of these different problems that we talk about, it has to start from the home. It starts from how we're raising our children. Actually, even before how we're raising our children, how we're planning. our families. I think family planning is very underrated. I didn't family plan, and it's partly because how I grew up, they didn't family plan either. This wasn't a discussion. This was a lot of reflection and understanding. And so my part is not to necessarily be a hypocrite, but to acknowledge that If I could have done it in a better way, I would have, if I understood the importance of doing it that particular way. And so I want other people to learn from my mistakes.

Michael DC Bowen: Yeah, that's great, Adam. What happened with me is, you know, I grew up in a traditional family, mom and dad, both married. And I was born a year and a half after they were married. And I didn't even understand that there were other ways that families were put together. And one of the kids that I was friends with in the fourth grade, his name was Tracy. And his last name was different than his mother's last name. And I couldn't figure that out. I was like, what's going on? And he was my best friend. I mean, I had a sleepover and we'd count the scars on our legs and arms and elbows. And we got up to like a hundred. And you could say, this is the time I fell out of the tree. But anyway, he moved away shortly thereafter. And I didn't hear from him literally for 30 years. And he called me back and he told me his whole story, which was just almost tragic. He ended up moving to Compton, hung around gang members, and was going to do an armed robbery when the gang member he had been following around literally put a gun to his head and says, you're staying home. When he came back and talked to me, he had fixed his entire life. And he said, I remember the Bowen family, and I remember your dad, and I remember what you guys did. And even though I didn't have any of that, I knew it was possible. And anytime I was at the bottom of hope, I just remembered And I know it's possible. So no matter what they said in TV and movies and the people around me, I saw it once and I was able to rescue myself. And you can never underestimate the importance of a good example in your neighborhood, in your church, in any of your associations, at work. Just be that guy, and you will make that difference, and people will remember you and say, I know it's possible.

Stephanie Winn: I knew you guys were going to make me cry, and we still have a whole hour left. Makeup's going to be all over my face by the end of this. Oh, man. So first of all, I wanted to say, Adam, congratulations on raising your child to 18, and Jeremiah, congratulations on your 10 years of marriage. So you guys talk about sacrifice. I think in some ways, Mike, although maybe you didn't use that term, you opened with that. You opened with how the sacrifice that it required of you made you a better person, and then Adam and Jeremiah, you took off with that. You know, you also talk about how so many men have opted out of that sacrifice, and it makes me think about whether this might be because of myths, untrue myths, about what actually brings satisfaction in life. That satisfaction comes from some other sort of pleasure than the ultimate fulfillment, especially as a man. of sacrificing yourself for the higher good. So I want to kind of open a conversation about what are those myths that are keeping people from discovering the truth of what our ultimate purpose is and what gives true satisfaction to our hearts and souls. I also wanted to mention that you were all starting to name some of the ramifications of fatherlessness, and I want to invite you to spell that out more clearly as well. So whichever way you guys want to take it.

Adam B Coleman: One of the myths is that fathers are just paypigs. That's it. And we're just here to be an economic source for the family and for kids. And so we're optional. They can be in the house or outside the house. We can be outside the house and just pay through the court system or just mail them a check. And so that's basically all we're here for and the mother can fulfill everything else. The other thing is that we don't enjoy raising our kids. This idea that fathers don't change diapers. Real men don't change diapers. That's women's job. I mean, like all that stuff. I wrote this article and it was a thread on Twitter that I wrote about Still to this day, the best time I ever had was raising my son. I want to say it was like the first 11 months of his life. I was working overnight. I would get out of work, I think like 6 a.m., and then I would go to his mother's house, pick him up, and watch him all day while his mother went to work. I was exhausted, but I enjoyed everything about it. I fed him, I played with him, I took a nap with him. You know, we did everything. We hung out together, we watched TV together. Like we, you know, I tickled him, you know, the entire thing. Changed his diaper and watching him grow. And this is, you know, this is back before like everybody had like, you know, these constant pictures being taken of each other. But I would take pictures of him and I still have the pictures. I would take pictures of him every couple of months just to see like his growth. and how big he was getting in such a short period of time. That's the one thing about my son. My son was always a happy baby, always smiling, always happy. It was just such a fun time. The idea that as fathers, we don't enjoy that, we don't enjoy being close with our kids, I thought was just It sounds like something that is written by someone who's just never had that experience, never attempted to or was talked out of having that experience. But I think that's one of the biggest myths, is that being involved in our kids' lives is just optional, doing anything with our kids. We kind of have this archaic 1950s persona of a father as just this guy who shows up at home at 6 p.m. after being at work all day. make him some dinner and he goes to sleep. And that's what being a father is. When in reality, being a father is just, it's a mixed bag. It's whatever is needed. It's whatever is done. You know, sometimes you have to be an emotional support for your kids. Sometimes you have to discipline your kids. Sometimes you have to set expectations. Like you have to do all these things. That's what being a parent is. And I think that the optional concept of what being a father is, is one of the most detrimental things that people believe within our society. And that's what allows for this particular thing happening. That's what makes men comfortable with walking away. That's what makes women comfortable with saying, I don't need him anyways, and not fighting to have some sort of unification. Like this is part of the problem. So I think that's, that's a huge, huge myth that a lot of people believe, but I've seen a firsthand how impactful I've been with my son. And actually my son has shown me as he was growing up and watching it. watching how he responds to me and raising him. My son showed me how much I was missing as a kid, you know, because, you know, like, oh, my my father's not here. But seeing what my son has in comparison to what I didn't have, it's like it's a much bigger gap than I realized. So, yeah, there's so much more I can go. I don't want to go there.

Jeremiah Wallace: So I believe my brother and I serve as a pitcher of just how an individual, based on their experiences, good or bad, can end up on the opposing ends of a spectrum, to be honest. We were obviously subject to the same father and mother However, our needs were different. What he needed from his father, and I believe specifically from his father, was different than what I needed. I was the middle child and I was the source of stability. The last thing I wanted to do was cause any more friction or to be a source of strain for my parents because my older sister was a mess and my younger brother ended up being a mess. So I ended up being the stable one, adopting the brunt of whatever and just trying to achieve some form of homeostasis in our home. And my brother, he got out of prison about a year and a half ago. We, for almost five years now, have been the guardians of his daughter, my niece, and his words via a letter that he wrote while in prison was our relationship is similar to that of Cain and Abel to a degree. And he meant that in a partially threatening way. But we've ended up again on very opposite ends of the spectrum because our needs were different. because of his experience, his filter for life, his conception, his understanding of what it means to be a man, what it means to develop as a young man, what it means to be a father. Those things were warped. And he had this condensed, very important period of his life where love, support, affirmation, correction from his father specifically. was absolutely necessary for the remainder of his life. And he didn't get that. And the consequence of that was a rap sheet that is, you know, half a mile long and a ton of decisions that I believe he regrets. But He can only regret them so much before he chooses to make change. So in spite of our ability to recognize our missteps, including my own there, we come to a crossroad. I believe we have this saying where like my father, my parent, my mom, they did the best they could do. And I'm at a point in my life where I challenge that. I'm not entirely in agreement with that. We all have a moment where we either choose to do better or we remain where we are. We either choose to forego the standard that our parents left and just aspire toward doing a little bit better than them, or we do the very best that we can. And I've come to that crossroad many times. My filter was also warped. It resulted in me drinking. It resulted in me, just as I did when I was younger, taking on the brunt of stressors and all the things. It resulted in me doing the same thing as an adult, as a husband and a father. So it resulted in me drinking. It resulted in me doing this thing in isolation, even in the church. Even with my family as a father, it resulted in me struggling with lust and having these issues that I didn't feel I could exercise elsewhere because, again, my filter was warped. But coming to a crossroad and choosing to be better, not just for my sake, but for my family's sake, like we just we we all come to that crossroad and we have to make a decision. And I am perfect. I'm not perfect by any means. But again, based on how we were raised, I can't say where someone's going to end up. But we have these predispositions and these needs that if not met, we are likely to end up in one area or outcome or another. His outcome was prison and struggling with anger and violence. My outcome was struggling within my family. Nonetheless, the crossroad will come and we have decisions to make.

Stephanie Winn: If you're looking for a simple way to take better care of yourself, check out Organifi. I start every day with a glass of their original green juice powder mixed with water. It contains moringa, ashwagandha, chlorella, spirulina, matcha, wheatgrass, beets, turmeric, mint, lemon, and coconut water. 100% organic with no added sugar. It's the best tasting superfood supplement I've ever tried. It's super easy to make, and it makes me feel good. Organifi also makes several other delicious and nutritious superfood blends, such as red juice, immune support, protein powders, a golden milk mix, and even superfood hot cocoa. Check out the collection at Organifi.com slash Some Therapist. That's O-R-G-A-N-I-F-I dot com slash Some Therapist. And use code Some Therapist to take 20% off your order. Jeremiah, if I can respond to that, you are That's one thing I appreciate about you. You are willing to go there. You are willing to look at those things that can, you know, if not handle with so much grace and sensitivity, that can be really explosive for people, right? And when you bring up this idea that all parents are doing the best they can, and you dare to challenge, like, is that really true? Is everyone truly doing the best they can? That is such a hot topic and I don't think any of you guys happen to be aware that on the very day that we are recording this episode, I just dropped an episode that I spent the last several days working on that was responding to a situation where I inadvertently touched a really sore spot for a lot of grieving parents. And it's so close to what you were just talking about, Jeremiah, because as you all know, the main issue that I work on these days through my consulting and my resource development is helping parents of youth with rapid onset gender dysphoria. And I'm not going to rehash the whole story because you can listen to episode 110, which just dropped for any listeners who want to hear that story. But basically, as part of a project of developing resources for this population of people who is really struggling, I invited anonymous feedback about any negative experiences that people had had with parents who fall into this category about maybe some character traits or, you know, other experiences that might shed light on something in that person's shadow. And so I was going to collect this feedback anonymously and put it as part of a resource for people who want to do that shadow work, who want to look at, is there something in my blind spot that I could be doing to contribute to the problem? And my call to action on the internet requesting that feedback got explosive and a lot of people felt really, really, really hurt and very angry with me. They said that I was blaming parents. There were a lot of people saying everyone's doing the best they can. And my answer to that is like, of course, I recognize the truth in that, but I think In my past few days of reflecting on this, this theme of sacrifice that you guys brought up earlier was part of what I came across, because my work trying to help people in this desperate situation is like walking through the fires of hell and I get burned in it sometimes. And I think there's no one who emerges from this level of battling with evil unscathed, and there's going to be some level of sacrifice. The question is, what are you sacrificing? You have to be willing to sacrifice the right things. You have to be willing to sacrifice your ego and your pride and every flaw within you if you are battling with an evil force that's trying to take your children away. And if you're not willing to sacrifice that, and if you're not willing to be humbled and heartbroken in the process, then you are potentially going to have to sacrifice something more precious than that. And so I feel like I got brought into this by the ways that I have touched that sore spot for people. And the same thing is happening to me. I'm getting burned up in those fires. Every part of me that is less than holy is being really challenged right now, too. So, whew!

Jeremiah Wallace: Yeah. And in response to those remarks, really quick before you go, Mike, the reason why I cannot assess my father's efforts as the best he could do is because I cannot afford to let myself off the hook. If I say that he did the best he could, then my children will eventually say the same about me. But I, me and my God know the reality. We know the reality and we're not striving for perfection. We are striving to do what we know to do in the moments that we know to do them. And my father chose otherwise. I actually asked because I was struggling. I've been struggling at the age. of 35 years old. And I asked my mom, I text her, hey, what was my father going through at this age? And she said this was the year that he abandoned his faith, that he totally relinquished all responsibilities as a husband and father. So currently I am facing the generational curses that my father was facing. He lost the battle. He lost it. And I I don't have him on the hook in that I don't forgive him. I recognize that his father was atrocious and he had it very difficult. Nonetheless, he had a choice just as I have a choice now.

Stephanie Winn: Wow, that's so powerful. Can I just ask you to speak more about generational curses and maybe anyone else who wants to chime in about that? Because I feel like that's a really poignant term.

Jeremiah Wallace: Mike, if you can actually go for it and I'll follow eventually.

Michael DC Bowen: Yeah, there's so many things to say here. I've been married for 30 years this year and I have three kids and I've always been a professional. My wife has as well. So we've lived in affluent neighborhoods and most affluent people will just have one or two kids. So we knew right away that we were outnumbered. And we knew that we would have to sacrifice. And just, you can't keep up with the Joneses, because you have to have a bigger place. That means you have to drive the beater cars. And it took a while for me to recognize that I can't have the nice things. But then I got the pride of driving that old minivan. that old Plymouth minivan and going to Target and just getting things for the kids. And that just felt great in a way that I didn't expect. And so I became one of those cargo shorts and t-shirt dad. with the dad bod. And that was a matter of pride, something I, you know, when I was younger, I would never think myself of being that. And, you know, I had my, my head shaved. So I'm like this bald looking dad. Uh, and, and I was learning lessons. One myth is when my boy, my oldest was going to go to elementary school. I thought about out loud. talking with some friends. Well, if they call him the N word, I want him to punch him in the face. And that was kind of a myth that we couldn't handle it. That black men are too brittle. And if you challenge them, they'll lose their cool. They're, you know, y'all gonna make me lose my mind. There's so many of those bad messages out there with people mean mugging, like they grow up defensive. And I said, no, I can't do that. I don't want my kids to grow up defensive. I want them to know that they get love at home. And I tell them all the time to maintain your inner peace. Are you happy with yourself? That kind of stuff. And that was nothing that I got from my father. I came from a big family and my dad was in the Marine Corps and it was all about, is the house clean? Did you do your responsibilities? There was never any hugging. There was never any love. And, and yeah, we got butt whoopings too. And I remember one day I raised my voice to my oldest daughter and she flinched and I said, no, I can't do this. I can't do this. I can't have them afraid of me in any way. Cause that's me losing my cool. So I said, you know, I have to put all that ego stuff away and I have to live for them, live for love. And that was a real important lesson for me because I thought, you know, I would be a high zoo professional, you know, and because I raised them all in the affluent neighborhood, everything would, be smooth. You know, I'm at a level that's considered unusual for a black family. And so people would say you made it, but you know, the same sewers in the ghetto go into the affluent neighborhoods too. The same kind of problems people have. If they don't have their inner peace and they don't have their mental health, things get crazy dysfunctional. And when you're affluent, you can hide that. but you can't run away from it. You have to get through it and you have to bear down and come up with some strength. And that often means a sacrifice of your image, of who you thought you were, of what you thought you were capable of being. And the idea is to stretch towards that humility where you're just saying, I know that I, did as much as I can. And I just say, this is as good as it gets, but I'm like hoping that it could get better. So there's a lot of myth busting in that nobody has it made. Anything can go wrong. So you just have to be prepared for, you don't know what you just say, I'm going to try to be loving through this. I'm going to try to be generous through this because that's what kids need. They absolutely need that. And it really kind of makes me think differently, unfortunately, about people who don't have children. Because there's people skills that you get dealing with your own kids, dealing with whatever they bring home, and saying, well, I don't know how to handle this, but how can I respond with love? Or how can I tell them we're going to get through this together? And that's a tough thing to do. If you just look at, you know, I don't know, TV stereotypes of what a successful family is. You, you definitely get past that and you get into deeper problems. So you have to be prepared for bigger problems than you ever expected. And you have to keep your stuff together.

Adam B Coleman: If I can jump in, so we talked about the term generational curse, and I'm not a believer in generational curse. I'm a believer in generational choices. I think knowing about what's happened in the past sometimes it becomes a, well, the sins of the father are expected of the son, so to speak. It's like, well, my dad was this way, so it's no wonder why I turned out this way. If there's anything I've learned throughout my life is that you have a series of choices. Some of them are more pivotal than others, but you have a series of choices. I had a choice in that hospital room my son was born. Either I can embrace him, take care of him, or I could run away and pretend he doesn't exist. I made a choice. I made a choice for multiple reasons, but I still had a choice in the matter. There's so many choices that we have in our life. I think the problem is that when we're told that we don't have a choice and that almost like our existence is inevitable based off of where we come from, based off of what color our skin is, where we grow up, It's inevitable that you're going to turn out in one of these three things. And you're lucky if those three things are good. I think dismantling hope is really a tremendous impact on our society. Any society that dismantles hope. You know, I hear about people talking like, what would you say to that black child in the hood that all they see is just a few paths forward and, you know, one of them is good. And the reason they're saying that is because they're basically implying that there is no hope. These kids are growing up without hope. Like, and no hope. Like, why are you here? Like, I stopped watching TV shows when there's no hope. Like, man, imagine living a life feeling like there's no hope. Like that thing that's over there that looks really good. I can't reach it. So why even bother? sounds like a terrible life to live. And I think a lot of people live that life. So anything negative that happens to them, they expect it. Anything negative that they choose is to be expected. Why even bother? And I think that's one of the reasons why I even wrote my book, Black Victim, Black Victors, because victim ideology is essentially an ideology without hope. you know, let somebody else fix it. Oh, woe is me. This is why my life is this way. It's always from the position of being behind and never about what you can do to move forward. And I think this is a really big issue that we're facing of portraying everything without hope. I fight constantly about our political environment. because it portrays no hope. Every election is about saving our country because this is it. Everything's going to die. And without hope, of course, you're going to want a savior, you know, so that that's a whole other topic there. But I do I do think that a good father prevents our children from feeling hopeless. A good father tells our children, even in the moments where there's some despair, even in moments where there's some failure, it's okay, we all fail, but you have to keep going.

Michael DC Bowen: Can I jump on that? Because I'm starting to think about this in terms of the broader society in two polar opposites that everybody seems to be talking about. And one is privilege, and the other is trauma. And you are going to learn something if you have the privilege of going to college, if you have the privilege of belonging to a good church where the minister is caring. But everybody learns the traumatic way. If you ever get in a fist fight, somebody gets punched in the nose, you're going to look at yourself in the mirror, look at your face in the mirror and say, how did I get into that situation? Why do I have to learn it this way? And the assumptions that African-American individuals and families can only learn from trauma and not learn from privilege, that's how these societal discussions are framed. Like we have to talk about the trauma that black children would get at the hands of police, or the trauma that they would get from these inner city schools. And they're always addressing us in terms of trauma, as if there are no privileges ever that we could ever deserve. And at least, you know, when I grew up in the 70s, they would talk about us as underprivileged kids, which is, let's get them some privileges. But now it's just like, oh, they're all the victims of trauma. So let's figure out what Band-Aids we can put on them. And the difference between those two is all the difference in the world.

Adam B Coleman: And just one more thing, and I'm trying not to make this wholly political, but it's just coincidence because of Joe Biden's speech at Morehouse College, a historically black university. And I wrote an article for the New York Post about this, how in a moment of celebration, you know, we talk about all these things that black people are unable to do and they can't actually Here you have these young adults who work years to graduate from a higher learning institution, something that most people don't do, right? And here they achieve this. And on the day of celebration, you have the president of the United States reminding them of strife, reminding them of the pain. you know, him using the line of, and this is a repeated line that he uses as far as what other people, other black people say, you have to work 10 times as hard to go just as far. You know, that type of language You know, and he's saying this, he's verbalizing this on top of other things of bringing up George Floyd. And, you know, you love America when it feels like America doesn't love you back. And I'm just like, this is their celebration day. They did it. And they can't even get a day without being reminded that they're victims. So I just wanted to bring that up.

Jeremiah Wallace: Yeah, I actually saw that he was speaking on that occasion, and I looked the other way. I'm like, this turned out bad no matter how it went. So that's just confirmation. But man, such good stuff and so true. One of our issues, one of the things that pigeonholes us, as especially this community, is the fact that we too often celebrate resilience. We celebrate the fact that we can go through trauma, go through the muck, the filth, the dysfunction, and eventually become adults. Not regarding how functional we are as adults, how effective we are as parents, the state of our hearts and our minds, just simply the fact that we made it. And that is a huge issue within our community. And because what it eventually produces is someone that is not willing to look back and do the deep work, the assessing and reassessing that is necessary for us to comprehend who we are and why we are the way that we are. Something that I do as a coach is I support people in achieving context in their history, looking back in their past so they understand who they are now and they can kind of develop this plan for where they eventually want to be. But so many individuals within the black community, black fathers, aren't doing the work of assessment, they consider themselves strong, because they made it to this point. And therefore, of course, they have the tools to serve people to love a wife to raise a children. And that's just so far from the case, we are so often ignorant, when we are in these all just important roles and we end up harming ourselves and those that we supposedly love and care for the most. So as we touch on the subject of generational curses, it is not for the sake of victimization. If anything, it's for us to have comprehension so we can have authority. We can gain back our authority over our history and where we are currently and understanding of where we are. So we are better equipped to move in a certain direction, because if somebody is walking around ignorant of the broken leg that they have, I've actually in 2017, I was hit by a vehicle, me and My nephew, we were walking back to go get my daughter along the sidewalk. This car came on a curb, hit a pole, pole came down, broke my foot, and it ran over my nephew. And I had a broken foot. I saw that he was under the car. Eventually I would pull him out from up under because she was putting it in drive and reversing, went over him a few times. And because of the adrenaline that I had, I was capable of standing to my feet and doing what I did. But once the adrenaline was gone, In all reality, I had a broken foot. However, there are black men that are depending on the adrenaline that allowed for them to survive these extreme and detrimental circumstances. But eventually it wears off and you're just a guy walking around with a broken foot. Like people need healing. Black men need healing. And the acknowledgement of the general generational curses and the work necessary to rectify that will bring about that healing. It says in the book of Jeremiah, and I didn't do that on purpose. Chapter 31, verse 29, the fathers have eaten sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge. There is a natural detriment that we adopt as a result of the mistakes, the mishaps, the poor decisions of those before us. And we just have to acknowledge that I was foolish enough early in my parenting to suggest exactly what you guys are talking about. I am going to I went to a inner city school and it was rough and it developed some resilience in me. And I said, no matter where we are, of course, we want to end up in a good community and we want to be just in a great position. But regardless, I want my child to go through what I went through because I want them to be resilient. That is foolishness, absolute foolishness. And I'm so grateful that I had a change of heart and a change of thinking because we can establish and we can equip our children adequately within our home and develop the right kind of resilience. We just we need to celebrate like privilege and the keeping grace more than we celebrate the saving grace. I used to be an addict. I used to be this. I used to be that. And then now I'm transformed. Hey, that's awesome. But how about the kid that didn't need that degree of transformation? How about the kid that had a loving home? And yes, they got some scrapes and bruises. They were called the N word here and there at school. OK, cool. We can we can in our homes provide what's necessary for that child to have the right kind of resilience absent of this craziness that's present in the lives of so many black children today.

Michael DC Bowen: Yeah, I think one of the things is is that it was true for me. I would think about all the stuff that I went through. And I would, you know, go into a business environment and there were never threats. You know, if, if you, if you grew up in a hard neighborhood, you'll know what the threats are. And you get into this new environment where there aren't such physical threats or even psychological threats, and you don't know where to pick up any clues. And, and if you take that hard attitude. that actually means that you're afraid to be vulnerable. And fear is guiding your way through this. And you're like, I don't have to listen to these other people. I'm just keeping it real. And what you're not keeping real is your actual human sensitivities, which are always going to be there. And you're going to learn it maybe too late in life, maybe when you're feeble and don't have any energy, and then you reflect on it. So you have to keep the presence of mind to say, you know, everybody didn't go through this trauma and my success depends on my ability to empathize with people and sympathize with people and listen to them closer when they're not threatening me because there's something I could possibly learn. There's something I could possibly give as well. And I think a lot of people cross that possibility out of their life. Because I came from this hard place, and they're afraid to be vulnerable.

Stephanie Winn: I think part of what I hear you guys talking about, sorry, Adam, just to frame it this way, is getting out of survival mode. That survival is the lowest common denominator. It is the minimum standard. and there are times in life when that is all you can do, and there are times in life when you do need to celebrate that you made it through, that you did survive, but as soon as that's over, let's focus on elevating the standard beyond mere survival to thriving. Adam, what were you gonna say?

Adam B Coleman: You know, one of the reasons I wrote my book was because I wanted my son… I wrote it as like a legacy thing and I wanted my son to have it and dedicate the book to him. But I also wanted him to read it and understand his father better. Because one of the things for me, I don't fully understand my father. I really don't know my father's childhood. I really don't know much of anything about my father. very much so he's like a stranger. So for me, I wanted my son to understand what I went through on a deeper level. And of course, he knew I grew up without my father, but I don't think he understood how it impacted me and how I felt about my father until he read the book. And one of the things that he told me after reading it was that how much he appreciates my involvement in his life, despite everything that happened to me. And he learned he learned about how important it was for me to be involved in his life and how detrimental it was for my father not being in my life. And he understood that because I communicated that with him. My son doesn't need to go through it. you know, to know that it's bad. Just like most of us don't need to go through most things to understand that something isn't good. You know, I don't have to smoke crack to understand that smoking crack probably isn't a good idea. Right. And I shouldn't be guilted from someone who says, you don't have a real idea until you do smoke crack. It's like, no, I can get the gist of it. You know, so there's lots of things that we can understand that it's not good and we don't actually need to go through it. to come out to this person who was able to overcome this obstacle. There's going to be so many obstacles that we go through as an adult, especially if you live a long life. You're going to lose your job. You're going to have bad relationships, breakups, and all types of stuff. There's plenty of things that we're going to have to have an obstacle for, but why not set up our children to have the best possible success to be able to overcome those obstacles? And that's how I'm seeing it. A lot of people see their kids as kids. And for me, I saw my son as a child in preparation to become a new adult. So as he got older, it was about telling him things that are age appropriate when he was a teenager and had his first little girlfriend. And I let him go through disappointment. Right. And we talked about it and I prepared him for what might come. And I expressed to him, I went through that, too. It's OK, because a lot of young men think that they're the only ones who are going through something. And it's like, no, it's OK. Like, we've all been through that. And to encourage him, he didn't have the outcome that he wanted, but to encourage him to keep going. And all these things were just like stepping stones. So that now that he's an adult, I'm extremely proud of him. I'm almost hands on when it comes to stuff, where he's like, I want to do this, and he just does it. He's at that point, he doesn't need me to push him anymore. And I didn't really have to push him too hard. I just nudged him and reminded him. Now he's gotten some W's, right? He recently got his GED. He planned for his practice test. He scheduled everything. He took the test on his own. He drove there and he aced it. And he did all of that on his own. It wasn't even my idea. And he's like, that was the biggest W. So then he was like, I'm going to go to, to become a bartender. The next week he finished the school, passed the test. And he's like, and I can, and I can bartend now, you know? And so for him, and I know what that's like when you start getting W's in your life and you're like, I can do this. And it's all because of everything that happened before of preparing him to become an adult who can do these things. who can overcome these obstacles, who can work really hard to get the thing that he wants. And now he's on his way to go to trade school, and he's doing that all by himself now. It's on autopilot at this point. So I guess ultimately to wrap it up is our children don't have to struggle the same ways that we do. Our children can learn through our struggles. Our children can understand how it impacted us and take a lesson from that so they don't have to go through that. Our kids don't have to become homeless, grow up in the hood and be neglected to understand that these things aren't good. And honestly, I think these type of things set us back and there's so much to overcome to even get to a point that is like regular, that a lot of people are at. And it sets our kids back. So, you know, even for me, it took me decades to be to where I am at today, where I'm perfectly comfortable in my skin. And I just didn't want that for my son.

Michael DC Bowen: Yeah, it reminds me of, you know, there were good things that my father did that helped me. I wrote an essay That's coming out in a book coming out in September from the Woodson Center, Red, White, and Black 2. And it's the simple story that he used to take us up to the mountains. So, whatever we did in our neighborhoods is just like camping, carpentry, and clean rooms. Helping us understand that we can create our own environment, our own environment of success. So, we got up to the mountains, there's nothing here. How are we going to make this place better? How are we going to make this place livable? Okay, you have to put up the tent and you have to do it before it gets dark or else you're going to try to have to put up the tent with flashlights. You know, you got to pack in, pack out what you pack in. You can't leave this place dirtier than you found it. And we did that, you know, within my family and we took some kids from the neighborhood up there too. And it's just the discipline that you have to learn about not only just surviving in this new place, but building something there to make you comfortable. And doing that and fixing up stuff around the house and just basically cleaning your rooms is a discipline that gets you knowing that, hey, I can go where there's chaos or where there's nothing, and I can build something, some structure or something that makes people comfortable, makes me comfortable. So then wherever I go in the world, I can do that. I can learn from this environment, and I don't have to sit, I'm just a product of my environment. We didn't have this, and we didn't have that. It's like I know how to build something that's good.

Stephanie Winn: That is so key, what you just said, Mike, about that experience growing up. It's something that really resonated with me because I think there's one of my step-sons who really is in that phase of needing that exact same type of experience that you described, the experience of, oh, my environment isn't just a place where I just go around and make a mess unaware of what I'm doing because that's early childhood, right? It's just I poop, someone cleans it up. I make a mess, someone cleans it up, but I influence my environment and I can build and I can create. I can take chaos and make it into order. I can work with nature, being constructive, having discipline. And I also hear you talk about, it's like a form of being proactive as opposed to being reactive. When we're in survival mode, we're just reacting. And I'm thinking about that book behind you, Adam, the concept of victimhood and victimization, that it doesn't exist for no reason. It exists because people have been victimized. But the problem is when you let your sense of victimhood erode a sense of agency. And when there's victimhood, there's usually also a rescuer and a perpetrator role. So I talked about this in my recent episode about the drama triangle. And some of what I heard you guys talking about earlier made me think of, you know, when you talk about like Joe Biden's speech. Right? You're talking about this framing of an issue as victimization when it does not have to be framed that way at all. It could very easily be framed as success and forward movement and agency. But I think where the conspiracy theorist in me comes out is who benefits from that? Who benefits from framing an individual or a population of people as victims, and are they getting something out of being the rescuer and framing someone else as the perpetrator? So the way out of that whole cycle of victim, rescuer, and perpetrator is this creative force that you're talking about, the order from chaos, the discipline of creating and being proactive.

Michael DC Bowen: The keyword is institutional because instead of the individual growth that you can be an agent for yourself, The politicians want to stand up and say, this institution made you a victim. Now I'm going to build you a new institution and you can trust my institution. And so they play it, they turn it into a power game where you validate them and their institution and you give them loyalty instead of loving yourself because you know that you can fix yourself. So that's, that's exactly who benefits.

Jeremiah Wallace: Yeah. And I was going to touch down and I would love that you use the term institution, because I believe that we arrive at this point because of the breakdown of the very first institution and that being the marriage relationship. There are a lot of, but there are not a lot of black husbands. I've seen a lot of good black fathers, but you can be a good father without being a good husband, but I've never seen a good husband that is not also a good father. And we have a huge issue within our culture where this important relationship, this essential relationship is not celebrated. It's not recognized. It's not deemed valuable. But again, as was mentioned at the beginning of the episode, You can, the correlation is so apparent. You can look at the state of black culture, families, and the presence of a husband and a wife, a marital relationship and the success, the well-being of children. Is it possible? to raise a child to be, again, an effective single parent, a great father and raise awesome children, of course. But it is not the way that things are supposed to transpire at the most basic and natural level. And then you think about the social and just how it's apparently necessary that this relationship is present and thriving in the life of a young mind, someone developing at the many stages is it's undeniably essential. And because of its breakdown, there are a ton of kids that are suffering and don't even know that that is a core piece of the issue. We've gotten to the point where we reject the essential nature of the husband and wife of the marriage relationship.

Michael DC Bowen: Well, I'll be the first one to say, here, here for marriage. And I got married later in life. I was 33 when I got married. And honestly, I read Thomas Sowell's Ethnic America in the 80s. And I read how immigrants succeeded in America. They came from the old world and they did this, they did that. But they got married and that was one thing that they had to do was get married and then think about how they would run their house. And these were poor people. So I just said, you know, I put a timetable out there and said, all right, this is what I've been doing with my romantic life. And I kind of always knew if someone, if she would ask me, do you want to get married? I'm going to say no. And I started to recognize my pattern in dating. And I said, I don't even have an end goal here. It's like, let's consummate this dating thing. I'm your man. You're my woman. We're together. And that was kind of it until something went wrong. But then almost ultimately she would ask me, you know, when are you going to settle down? When are you going to commit to me? How about a ring? And I was like, Why is that question always coming up? Can't we just have a good relationship? And I just realized, you know, I'm not even putting a long-term thing here. I'm taking this risk, having sex with this woman that I really like, and I kind of like, maybe I love her. But then, so what I had to do was kind of put an elevator thing together, which is, do I like you? Would I date you? Would I go out with you? Would I sleep with you? Would I marry you? Would I have kids with you? And I was like, oh, if I'm only at level three, I'm never going to get to level seven. So why am I messing with these people who are, I know ahead of time, I'm not going to get to level seven. And I'm not thinking about my own future. I'm not planning my own future. So no wonder I can't commit. So as soon as I said, you know what? I'm not even going to kiss a girl. if I don't think I could live with her. And that was the loneliest winter I ever had, but it helped me focus my mind. And I said, oh.

Stephanie Winn: I'm sorry. I just feel like the world would be such a better place if more men asked themselves those questions and stopped wasting women's time. For women, there is that biological clock. And right now, we live in this technocratic society that wants to deny biological reality, wants to deny the reality of women's fertility and how much harder it is to have kids at a later age. I've even learned that childbirth, like if two 40-year-old women give birth but one had her first child at 20, and one is just having her first child now, the birth experience is going to be much easier for the woman who had children earlier. So it's fertility, it's the ease of birth, it's the rate of various complications, all that kind of stuff. Honestly, it's so much easier for women at a younger age, and women are known for maturing faster than men, being ready faster than men, and I see women get so hurt by all these men they experience as wasting their time. then their standards get lower and lower, they don't know what they're looking for. So this question that you posed yourself in your 30s, Mike, of, you know, how seriously would I be willing to take this person? And if not, why should I be wasting her time and mine? That question could spare so many people so much hurt. And people who are living maybe in denial about the reality of how much it hurts to go through one relationship after another and how when you waste your time with the wrong people, you're hurting yourself. No matter how much fun you think you're having through sexual gratification or whatever, you're wounding your own soul because you're not living with integrity and focusing on your goals in any meaningful way.

Jeremiah Wallace: Yeah, to add on to that, it really comes down to sensation and the black culture is sensationalized. We celebrate the things that, that feel good, that look good. And. It's obviously to our detriment having sex with whoever. There's just there's just an ignorance that's been adopted. Just as you you mentioned, Stephanie, like we can be in these relationships, we can engage with these people in this way. And there is a disregard for the consequences. And I'm not just talking about childbirth. I'm talking about the human condition, like. To engage with people in such an intimate way and to treat them as throwaways afterwards, not regarding their human experience is wild and it's rampant within our community. It is absolutely rampant. And it's again, it's celebrated. Unfortunately, the things that we do celebrate are It's the along the lines, the lines of the sensation that I mentioned, things that feel good, look good and whatnot. But we celebrate the things that get the most of one thing or another, that get the most money, that get the most likes, views, attention. And it doesn't matter. the thing that acquired that end result. There's just a, there's such a cry for attention within this community. And then there's the ease with which we give attention within the community. Like we really, honestly, if I, if I'm being real, we need to bring shame back. We need to shame folk. We do. We need to shame people like Sexy Red. We need to shame people like, you know, fortunately, it's it's wild that I'm bringing up celebrities that I know of. But, you know, Diddy's having his time where he's experiencing some shame. A recent video of a beating, you know, of his ex came out. Who's surprised by that? Nah, I'm not. And there's these people that are perpetuating sexual promiscuity, violence, that are focusing solely on materialism and what they've attained, and we see it in these predominantly black communities the violence that's taking place within them and just all of all the things that it's reaping. And we're still celebrating these things because they are getting the most of one thing or another. And that does not exist across cultures. It doesn't because shame tends to exist. I don't know that there are dysfunctional white celebrities, so to speak, that are getting attention from the masses of the white population. I don't know if that exists. However, within the black community, there are some of those people that I just mentioned that are getting attention from a significant population of the black community. And that's because we've sensationalized celebrity. We don't celebrate the things worthy of it. And therefore we have young minds that are aspiring toward it because back to the institution. That's not in place. I can talk to my girls and I have four girls, which is wild. I have four girls and I can acknowledge, walk through and address these very things and they can see them happening right in front of them. My 15 year old has a friend that I'm not super fond of just because of some of her habits and things that I recognize right off the bat. And because my daughter has an empathetic heart, she is therefore vulnerable to deception and influence. So I've called these things out. And turns out she her parents are having a divorce. So she is subject to like she's vulnerable and she's going through chaos. And I am fortunate enough to be in a position where I can walk her through this. And I called these things out prior to this big news coming out. And therefore she can contextualize. And I'm calling out what we celebrate because we have security, safety, and correction in place. But within this community, we're celebrating just garbage. And it's showing up in our lives.

Stephanie Winn: I love sleep. Sound sleep is a crucial foundation of good mental and physical health, from mood and concentration to metabolism and cellular repair. And I sleep very well thanks to my 8 Sleep Pod Pro cover. My side of the bed is programmed to be warm when I get in and cool down to a neutral temperature in the middle of the night so I don't wake up overheated like I used to. How would you customize your bed temperature? Visit 8sleep.com and use promo code SUMTHERAPIST to take up to $200 off your purchase. Even if they're already running another sale, this code will get you an additional $50 off. Eight Sleep currently ships not only within the USA, but also to Canada, the UK, select countries in the European Union, and Australia. Thanks for considering purchases that support the show. The irony is like we were talking about at the very beginning, the truth of what actually brings real satisfaction, like Adam was saying in the beginning, the myth that men do not derive pleasure from loving their children. All of this pursuit of artificial, short-term, unfulfilling, superficial pleasure, and the truth is that doing the responsible thing is what will actually make you happy.

Adam B Coleman: It's one to throw in that two big impacts as far as having a father involved in a child's life. For the boys, they teach them not to chase after instant gratification. That's that's a really big thing because especially boys are very impulsive. And so you kind of have to I would say you have to like tame most boys. You have to calm them down and get them to try your best to look around the corner rather than chase the thing that they see right in front of them. And for girls, the impact is that he becomes a model for the type of man that they want to interact with. And I think for a lot of for a lot of young girls, let's say if they don't grow up with their father at all, they don't have that model. And so they're just going off of what's shiny, what looks good. And often the shiny and what looks good type of guy is the worst individual that you can deal with. And so they just perpetually go down this, this rabbit hole of dealing with unhealthy, abusive, narcissistic, you know, the list goes on type of guys. who are going to use and abuse them because they don't know what a proper guy looks like. And matter of fact, they get so used to it that when that proper guy comes around them, they're turned off by them because they don't know what that looks like. They don't know what that feels like. And I've seen this before because I've always been, when I was younger, I was perpetually the nice guy. But I would get around this type of girl. And I would hear the stuff like, he's, he, why is he nice? You know, why is he saying that to me? Like they don't know how to handle someone being polite to them because they're, they're so used to men being aggressive or men being forceful and them wanting to date or forceful in their behavior. You're going to do this to be untrustworthy. Right. And being trustworthy is like a foreign concept to them because they get so familiar with abuse. And I use abuse kind of lightly, but like they get familiar with that type of abusive tactics and dishonorable tactics within relationships with men because they have no idea. They quite literally don't know what that type of guy looks like. And so here they are, they procreate with these guys and perpetuate the very thing that is harming them the most. And you just see that cycle happening over and over and over. And I don't know, I don't know about you guys, but I can, I'm almost to the point where I can almost tell if someone has grown up with two healthy parents, just by talking to them, not have to ask them any questions, just their general demeanor. Because it's, it's something where most people don't work through it to get rid of that pain. There, there is a pain that kind of comes to the top and there's something that sticks out. Maybe it's that I'm sensitive to it and other people aren't, but I can see it. That's the type of thing that we're creating out of our children. It's a pain that comes to the surface, whether it be fear, whether it be just being avoidant, running away from things that are good, gravitating towards the things that are bad because it's familiar to them. Yeah, there's just something that's there that I can always pick up.

Michael DC Bowen: Yeah, it's weird. I can remember just a crazy story that I tell. I did a lot of consulting and I'd travel around. So I find myself in a bar in Boise, Idaho, the night that Michael Jackson held his baby outside the window. And I'm sitting next to this guy, Russian guy, and he says, you have to teach your kids to be good. And when they're young, you don't give them a choice. Then by the time they get to middle school, they try to be bad and realize they're not good at being bad. And then they fall back to being good. And so I kind of followed that advice. And when they got to high school, they were like, dad, I have to get into AP class because these other kids are slackers and they're disrupting my ability to learn. And I was like, wow, it actually worked. But also I would say there's a book called Strong Fathers, Strong Daughters by Dr. Meg Meeker. And that was a lifesaver. And I realized it helped me a lot. in understanding my daughters and understanding the pressures that they were facing. And now it's like, we do have this quarter million things in Apple photos. And when I go back to the pictures that they were taking when they were 12 and 13, they're grossed out by their former selves, because they knew what they were thinking when they were taking those pictures. and says, oh, dad, don't don't don't show those anymore. And I don't know if if a lot of kids, young kids today will always be reminded of what they were like when they're tweens and 13 year olds and they can't escape that. So that's kind of crazy. The only one thing I would say that also worked in my family is play old school music. So my daughters know Stevie Wonder. They know Earth, Wind and Fire. They know, you know, even Nat King Cole, just old school romantic where guys saying, you know, it takes a fool to learn that love don't love nobody, you know, that kind of romantic things that are still standing. Whereas, you know, nobody knows what Britney Spears said, you know, 10 years ago. So those kinds of lasting values are out there and they're in black culture too. And gospel music is in Black culture too. So it's the people who are paying attention to Diddy who are sacrificing their own dignity.

Jeremiah Wallace: Just to add a little bit on that, you kind of hinted toward identity, and there is a crisis of identity that's taking place. And I think part of the issue is due to the fact that we are first Black and then we're everything else. And I think that's a huge problem. I would not change my pigmentation for anything. My ancestral line. I love it. It's amazing because it's God given. Like he has me here for such a time as this for a purpose. And I aspire towards fulfilling that purpose. So I wouldn't exchange it for anything, but I'm not black first. I'm not, I believe I'm convinced that I was. Created in the image of God in his likeness and I'm loved by him. I'm valuable because of my creator and That's something that's not really being communicated right now. I think There is an attack on identity and is being perpetuated by speeches that took place, such as that Morehouse leading with the principle of pigmentation of your race, your ethnicity, that speech was. To a group of black people and unfortunately not toward a group of scholars that are going to be leaders in this nation. And he should have led with that, unfortunately. And I am, I'm raising beautiful, wonderful, awesome girls. And they're going to make, they've made such an impact and they're going to make such an impact. The other day, actually. We went to Vaughn's and there was a gentleman just sitting outside homeless, whatnot. I asked him if he wanted me to grab him some food. So I was in the store. I grabbed him a little something. And and then my daughter was coming out of the car with a bag of like. essentials for homeless people that we kind of have prepared to to hand some folks. And she was walking out the car as I was handing him his stuff, not provoked, not asked to do it. My wife was in the car. She didn't, you know, identify the guy or anything, but she saw him. And because of her character and because of who she is, she came out that car. And at the same time, we were blessing this guy. And that is who I'm raising. I'm raising Her to be a woman of character a woman that can see needs and knows that she's capable of being an answer I am not raising a black girl. I am raising a black girl, but not first is an essential part of her character, who she is and the things that she is associated with 100%. But it is not the highest priority. And we're making that mistake, suggesting you're black first and then everything else. Our identity does not stem from because if, you know, a number of us do the whole ancestry.com, whatever the case, you live for 30, 40 plus years, you figure out that you are a mutt. Then what? What were the last 30, 40 years of your life? I remember what happened to one of the hosts of the show, the view joy, something I forget. And she went and got her, you know, got it all figured out. And she figured out that part of her lineage consisted of being slave owners. And she's been, you know, the head leading this, this charge concerning anything associated with that issue and people being on that side. Dude, your whole life understanding just got blown up. So, so now what? Let's not live first as whatever our ethnic association is. Let's be like people, citizens of this world that have a purpose and we aspire toward fulfilling it. But if we don't have parents that are willing to communicate that, then culture communicates what's the priority. And that's why there are so many with an identity crisis.

Stephanie Winn: Jeremiah, that reminds me of Mike's friend, Wink Twyman. I'm reading his book. I'm very slow at getting through actual physical books. I'm much more like a listener, but I'm slowly making it through Letters in Black and White by Wink Twyman and Jennifer Richmond, I think it is. And he talks about his ancestry, and it includes both former slaves and former slave owners. And the relationship dynamic between them is so much you know, less easily categorized than the simplistic narratives that were handed by the culture. It's a trip when you start looking into it. I really appreciate the way you worded that, Jeremiah. I mean, these weren't your exact words, but basically that we are children of God above all else. That's what comes first. And that you are raising women of character. I love that. That's so beautiful. We are nearing the end of our time together, so I want to give everyone an opportunity to share whatever their burning thoughts are that are still on the tip of their tongue. Maybe we can kind of go around and give everyone an opportunity to share their closing thoughts. How's that sound? Mike, you want to go first?

Michael DC Bowen: Yeah, just to finalize on that last point, what we have the power to do as fathers is make our proper family. And when we play the proper role and we do what we can, then our children will not be vulnerable to identity politics or to what's called black culture out there, because they'll know the values that they grew up in their family. And somebody will come to the college campus and say, blackness is this, and this is, well, I didn't raise them. That wasn't my family. That wasn't the way my dad did it. And that's all the power that you need is like, take care of the kids, your wife, your family, your immediate family, your extended family, and that is your black world. You got to do right by them, and then you do right by yourself. And you set an example that can live for decades, for generations. So that is your power. It is always within your power. Use your imagination, use your creativity, and you can become someone that you deserve to be, a child of God in God's image with all the power that connects. Don't expect it from the radio, from streaming, from the podium, from the microphone. Do it face to face in your house.

Stephanie Winn: That's beautiful. Adam, would you like to go next?

Adam B Coleman: Yeah. There's a lot I could probably say. I guess we kind of talked about it before. As far as just reflect, reflect on yourself as a parent. I almost reject the notion of you did the best that you could as a parent because it implies that you reach the point, there's a limitation, and that's the best that you could. And I have no problem with having parental guilt. where I know there are areas where I was supposed to do better and I could have done better. And I think that is a much healthier way to look at things because it shows some humility. It shows that maybe it's not too late to improve on these things. And it's not a free pass. So you feel good as a parent and, you know, remove that guilt. I think we should have guilt. We should have guilt as parents because our job is never over and we are not perfect. You're never going to be perfect. There are always areas of improvement as far as raising your kids. And I think pretending that you just did the best that you could means that you reach some limiting point. And I think that's a limitation that we're imposing on ourselves that we don't need to so we can feel good in the moment. And the last thing I'll say is we have to stop enabling our children. Enabling is about you and not about your kids. Let your kids go through something. Let them experience something. You may know the outcome, but they sound really eager to go through it. So let them go through it and be there to talk to them afterwards. But don't, don't enable them. Don't give them everything that they asked for. You know, you, the biggest complaint that we hear from employers about Gen Z is that they're entitled. And I've written this in articles. All right, they're entitled, but who raised them? And I think that is the real question. Why are we raising entitled children? And it's because we want to be their friend and not their parent. We want to enable their bad behavior so we can alleviate some guilt and say, well, I did the best that I could. And the reality is, no, we should have some guilt because we are responsible. If my son turns out to be a gangbanger, you know what I'll be like. I messed up as a parent somewhere. Where is my responsibility in that? He made a choice as an adult to be a gangbanger, so be it. But as a, as a parent, I look at, I look at where I could have done things differently. And that's how we should always look at our kids. So, you know, we're, we're never done. You know, my son is 18 now and he's going to be an adult hopefully for a long time. And I'm sure there are going to be areas where he's going to be calling his father and asking for help. And I'll always be there for him. And I hopefully will give him good advice. So always be there for your kids. Your job is never done. And you are not a perfect parent.

Stephanie Winn: That's beautiful. Thank you. And Jeremiah.

Jeremiah Wallace: Yeah, so good. I think a few things, I think I start with forgiveness, forgiveness for those before you forgiving yourself because you're going to make mistakes that you never intended to make. There are moments early in my parenting, especially soon after I, we got guardianship over our niece where it was much. I have four girls recently had a pandemic and the level of stress was incredible. And I made mistakes. And I had to forgive myself. So forgive those before you forgive yourself. You want to be a free man. Effective people are free. So you want to be a free man and forgiveness is necessary in order to achieve that. I'd also say get yourself in order. There are, you don't want to be debilitated because you are medicating yourself in one way or another because you do well in 80%. So you are allowed that 20% of whether self-sabotage or just not being the man you are during that 80%. So get yourself in order, challenge yourself. We're not aiming for perfection, but you're aiming for purpose. You want to walk in that. And the last thing I'll say is serve, serve, serve your wife, serve your children. That is the position that you are in. You are leading, but you are leading through your service. And that means it kind of points to what we talked about initially in that being laying your life down. If we had a generation of black men that were willing to lay their lives down in service for their family, foregoing all the things that make them feel good, will they achieve fulfillment and experience it? 100%. But if you forego those things, lay yourself down, lay your life down, then the generation to follow, it will look entirely different from what it does right now. So I would suggest those things and I am doing what I can to walk that out right now.

Stephanie Winn: Oh, this was so good. This was such a good conversation. You guys nailed it. I mean, I started to cry at the beginning and managed to keep it in though, like good amount of emotional balance there. And we just we covered so much. So much beauty, so much wisdom. I'm so happy with how this conversation went, so thanks you guys. So we'll round out with just the quick, where can people find you? Tell them about your podcast, your social media account, your book, whatever. We'll go in the reverse order, so starting with Jeremiah.

Jeremiah Wallace: Yeah, so you guys can find me. I have a podcast entitled Navigating the Blended Family Experience. My wife and I are ramping stuff up. We want to help people, serve people, restore families and whatnot. You can email me at blended at navigating the blend.com. And I'm generally speaking on, you know, social media, Instagram and whatnot.

Adam B Coleman: You can follow me on Twitter. I'm most active on there or X. I refuse to call it X, actually. You can follow me on there at wrong underscore speak, but definitely subscribe to my sub stack. Adam B. Coleman does substack.com. And I also have a YouTube channel where I have episodes of breaking bread, which is basically me sitting down, having a meal with different people and talking culture, politics, life. unscripted, and it's a very nice casual conversation.

Michael DC Bowen: I'm Michael David Cobb Bowen, MDCBowen, and you can find me, you can even put my whole name in chat GPT, and it knows something about me. But mdcbowen.info.org.substack.com, and I'm MDCBowen on Instagram and TwitterX.

Stephanie Winn: Twitter X. Thank you guys. I hope you enjoyed this episode of You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist podcast. To check out my book recommendations, articles, wellness products, guest episodes on other podcasts, consulting services, and lots more, visit sometherapist.com. Or follow me on Twitter or Instagram at sometherapist. If you'd like to go deeper, join my community at somekindoftherapist.locals.com. Members can dialogue with other listeners, post questions for upcoming podcast guests to respond to, or ask questions for me to respond to in exclusive members-only Q&A live streams. To learn more about the gender crisis, watch our film, No Way Back, The Reality of Gender Affirming Care, at nowaybackfilm.com. Special thanks to Joey Pecoraro for our theme song, Half Awake. If you appreciate this podcast and want more people to find it, kindly take a moment to rate, review, like, comment, and share on your platforms of choice. Of course, just because I am some therapist doesn't mean I'm your therapist. This podcast is not a substitute for medical advice. If you need help, ask your doctor or browse your local therapists online. And whatever you do next, please take care of yourself. Eat well, sleep well, move your body, get outside, and tell someone you love them. You're worth it.