You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist

Swell AI Transcript: 121. Jane Wise FINAL.mp3
Jane Wise:
It's such an escape from whatever is bothering them. It basically is they're told this is the drug that's going to fix you. And it's like, oh, just try this. I know you're not happy yet. We'll try this now. Oh, you're still not happy. We'll try this now. And it's just they keep going down that road and it gets more and more extreme, more and more extreme until some of them finally say, how the hell did I get here?

Stephanie Winn: You must be some kind of therapist. Today I'm speaking with Jane Wise. She is a certified addictions counselor who facilitates a support group for parents of ROGD kids. That is, parents of adolescents and young adults with rapid onset gender dysphoria. So Jane's a colleague doing similar work to the type of work I do, presumably. Actually, we'll probably discover what our similarities and differences are today. But we're here to have some collegial banter about the process of helping parents of ROGD kids what it is that they're going through, what kind of support is beneficial to them. Grateful to have Jane's expertise here on the podcast. Jane, welcome. Thank you for joining me. Thank you. So how did you get into supporting parents of ROGD kids?

Jane Wise: I started looking into the whole gender thing back in 2020. I was very much liberal and very much on board with all that trans stuff, I would correct people's pronouns, I was all over it. And I started getting, I actually made a comment on a Facebook post, and she had said something about how J.K. Rowling was getting death and rape threats, and that she was being very reasonable. And I said, well, I understand the anger, but death and rape threats are obviously not okay. And she suggested that I research this topic and reconsider my position. I started doing some research and I asked her a lot of questions and eventually, very long story short, I realized that there were a lot of problems with this movement that I wasn't seeing. And so I started listening to a bunch of different podcasts and YouTube channels, you know, related. And I happened upon a gender, a wider lens with Stella O'Malley, Sasha Yad. And I heard them talking about the parents and what the parents were going through and how they were, you know, just being called, you know, transphobes and bigots for not, not wanting their kids to be harmed and, and being, you know, being estranged from their kids, all this kind of stuff. And I just. you know, I wanted to do something more tangible in this fight than just, you know, post on Twitter. So I was intrigued by that and thought that with my skills as a counselor, that's something I could do. I have a lot of group facilitation practice. And so they were talking about supporting parents of these kids in groups. And I just basically messaged Stellan and said, Hey, I'm interested. I would, I would like to do that. And so she connected me with the organization in America called Parents that were OGD Kids. And that was a little over a year ago. I started, I started running Zoom on a Zoom platform. I facilitate meetings with the parents in my state.

Stephanie Winn: So we have a really similar story. Seems like a lot changed for both of us in 2020. And, you know, I, I've found myself saying often that what sets me apart from other counselors where I have a hard time understanding their thought processes. For me, it was just finding out that people are being harmed or that there's a different side of the story. That's where I feel like I need to understand this better. And I think, you know, we can all forgive one another, forgive counselors who were told this is the best way to help people, or there's this unique population with this unique diagnosis and here's how to help them. But it's just that part of Somebody saying, well, did you know that there's another side of the story? Did you know the people are being hurt by this? Where you perk up and you go, well, no, I didn't know that. What do I need to know about that? And I think the real point of division in our field is the people who don't want to hear more about that, who don't do their research. And so it's very eyeopening once you start looking into the ways that people are being hurt. And for me, it started with the D transitioners and the young people. But for you too, it was more about hearing about the parents' experiences.

Jane Wise: It was that, but also, I think it was a huge moment for me when I found out that detransitioners existed. Totally. I was under the impression, and I believe it is a deliberate part of the whole propaganda surrounding this issue, that a gender identity is fixed, permanent, present, essentially from birth. and that the best and kindest thing that we can do is allow people to medically transition. If that's what they feel like they need to do, that's awesome. That's great. And the idea that anybody ever regretted it absolutely never occurred to me, you know, so, and then I, and then I, you just start hearing about all the harms and how dangerous these surgeries are and how there's, I think a lot of, you know, charlatans basically, practicing these surgeries and weren't qualified. And it's just, it's just such a nightmare.

Stephanie Winn: I think therapists by nature tend to be high in agreeableness, openness, conscientiousness. We want to do the right thing. And I think there's, there's sort of this like empathic or empathetic haze that can come over us when we're introduced to an absurd idea. It's like we stretch our minds to accommodate it because our first instinct is how do I make room for this new element of the human experience that I'm learning about? And, but I also think that it comes at a cost, you know, like you said, like you were all for it when you were first introduced the idea, because it was being presented to you as life-saving care. It was being presented to you as the healthiest thing for people. And you weren't being taught about the medical harms, but looking back hindsight being 2020, I'm sure you've had this experience too, of thinking back to How was I ever sold on the idea that someone could inject their body full of cross-sex hormones and that that would not have a negative impact on any system of the body?

Jane Wise: It just didn't even, like, occur to me. It was more just like, well, this… It had been going on for a long time, you know, this whole idea of transsexuals and, you know, hey, if they're happier that way and, you know, they're just so… I wasn't really… I guess if anybody had told me that there were harms to it, I would have thought, yeah, but this is… this is life saving, you know, I would have absolutely bought into that whole idea. Yeah, but this it's better to save their lives, even if it causes some, you know, residual harm. Yeah.

Stephanie Winn: And we now know how dangerous that is, which, again, there's that haze that comes over us, because if it weren't about this magical gender idea, when it comes to how we as therapists and counselors talk about suicide, we would never talk about suicide. in the irresponsible ways that it's been talked about, right? So when something is framed as life-saving, the implication, even in that statement alone, what to speak of the other suicide rhetoric, is that people are going to kill themselves if you don't do this for them, right? And we know that that's really dangerous to say because suicide is contagious and people are impressionable. And especially those of us with the authority of some kind of license or certification behind our name, or just the authority of age, and we're talking to younger people. For us to put our weight behind that as authority figures and to confirm that that's true is, I think, an abuse of power.

Jane Wise: It's reprehensible. Yeah. I blame the professionals more than anybody, honestly. I mean, people have had goofy ideas throughout time. People are always going to have goofy ideas. But the idea that professionals, and particularly doctors, have been willing to just go along with this stuff and knowingly harm people's bodies and, you know, put them at this huge risk. I just think it's, it's just utterly irreprehensible.

Stephanie Winn: So let's talk about what you've learned in the process of running these support groups?

Jane Wise: I mean, my heart just breaks for these parents. And the only ones where I feel like it, where I really feel like, oh, you know, that's, that's a great story are the ones where all my daughter desisted, my son desisted, then I, and I feel like, okay, that's great, because Even the ones that right now are not medicalizing are still in touch with their families, have good relationships with their families. It's still a waiting game. It's still you just you just don't know what's ultimately going to happen down the road. And it's like they're always holding their breath. And that's, that's, those are the best ones, you know? And then the, the, you know, the heartbreaking ones are the ones that, you know, that say, I, yeah, I haven't talked to my 16 year old for eight months because she went to live with her, with her father. And I, you know, I don't know if, I don't know if or when I'm ever going to see her again. And yeah, we did everything we could for our, for our son. And we even started using the pronouns and the other name and he just kept being told on the internet that we were evil. And so now he now wants to see us again.

Stephanie Winn: The one where the 16 year old goes off to live with the affirming dad. You know, at first when you said I haven't seen my 16 year old in eight months, I was like, well, that's a younger age than I'm used to hearing about with that level of disconnect. But I do think that in my experience, it's hardest when the parents are on different pages. whether they're divorced and the kid can triangulate them that easily and just run off to the affirming Disneyland Candyland parent or whether, I mean, and I've seen this break families apart. You know, I've been contacted by people on the verge of divorce because of this issue. And I think without the support of your spouse, it's just so, so much harder. And the kid can just get in there with the triangulation and I mean, teenagers are designed to see how much power they can accumulate or what kind of boundaries they can push. And if the parents are that divided, then it's like the kids getting what they want at the expense of what they need. And deep down, it must be terrifying for the child because they know they're not ready for that much power.

Jane Wise: Yeah, no, I agree with you. Yeah. So it's been it's been heartbreaking, but I'm I'm glad I'm at least able to hold a space for them to know that they're being heard, that I don't think they're crazy, I don't think they're terrible, because they will tell me. I give individual support as well, so I always tell them, if you just want individual support, then I'm happy to do that, because not everybody can make the meetings or wants to go to the meeting. So and so I do, I do that. And a lot of them are just like, Oh, you know, I'm just so glad to have somebody to actually talk to about this, who understands, you know, because I mean, I can't give them answers. It's just, that's pretty much all I can do is tell him, No, I don't think you're crazy. And I understand why you're so worried.

Stephanie Winn: So something I am curious about how you handle is the despair and panic. because you talk about how it's hard even for the families whose kids aren't on a path of medicalization. And something I notice in my own work with these parents is that sometimes parents will come either very well-researched or maybe they've participated in various kind of peer support groups or online forums. And they have all these worst case scenarios in mind based on things that have happened to other families. And in our private conversations, I will say like, I know these worst case scenarios are out there and those are really scary images to have in mind, but here's, here are the strengths that I'm hearing in your situation and how you can take a deep breath right now, because that's not you right now. And there's a time at which a parent needs for their own wellbeing to stop consuming those stories. So in a group setting and with the group I run, it's not a support group, it's a skills group. So it's really like, this is not therapy. We are here to discuss skills, strategies, communication techniques. I have rules about keeping it positive because I don't want people falling into despair. And in this context of a support group, you have people, I would imagine a range of, you know, people who my 14 year old declared she's trans last week to my 27 year old has been on hormones for three years. Like you have that range. So how do you sort of help people maintain their hope and not kind of spiral in reaction to each other's stories about, oh my God, what could happen to my kid? My kid's going to cut me off. My kid's going to cut off their body parts.

Jane Wise: I don't know that I have an amazing strategy to deal with that. Because it's just, you know, I just, I just try to say, you know, all we can do is hope that they will at some point, you know, come around and realize that they're going down and a really dangerous path. And I mean, I do have one parent that will always say, he always tells his kid who is identifying as trans but hasn't medicalized, I will never lie to you. You know, I will never lie to you. he has noticed that that is really, and just the fact that he's like, I'm always here for you, I always love you, but I'm never gonna lie to you. These people might lie to you, but I never will. And he has really noticed that his kid seems to notice the disconnect between what the online community is saying that, oh, your parents are gonna hate you and reject you, and what's actually going on at home, which is, No, we love you. We want to stay connected to you. You know, we just don't want you to hurt yourself.

Stephanie Winn: It's so powerful when you can stand on principle like that and say something that the kid intuitively knows is true. I mean, that line would not work if dad had ever lied to him. Right. And I have families that, you know, you have to think about the social capital that you have with your kids. So for example, I don't normally recommend parents to bombard their kids with information because you've seen how that goes. It just makes the walls go up more. But I'm thinking of a parent I knew who her whole life had been involved in medical research. And so, you know, for her to bombard her kid with information was no different than anything she'd ever She's like, you know, I'm a researcher. And so, you know, it's that integrity, that consistency with your character and values that you've demonstrated to your kids over time that has like a rooted quality to it that ultimately, I think whatever a parent's sort of social capital is there, whether it's, you know, that, you know, I would never lie to you, or, you know, I always do my research, or, you know, this or that about me can really help, like, as a reality check.

Jane Wise: Absolutely. And it's just, you know, it's always tough because they sometimes they will say, what should I do? What should I do? And sometimes I have an I have an idea from, you know, things I've heard before and, you know, listening to, you know, the gender wider lens because they give a lot of advice and stuff like that. And sometimes I have Like I had somebody come to me and say that this parent was going to be in a therapy session with their child and they hadn't seen their child in a little bit. And so they were hoping that they could get somewhere. And I said, and I just recommend just ask a lot of questions, you know, just show, show a lot of love, ask a lot of questions and, you know, and, and don't, you know, basically don't, don't go in there, you know, weapons drawn. You know, just really try to try to find out what's up with your kid, basically, you know. And so in that case, that's a rare instance when I feel like I had an idea how to deal with it. Because a lot of times I don't know, you know, I don't I don't know that I don't know their kid. I can recommend certain principles like, you know, you try to stay connected as much as possible, but you also don't don't take abuse. If the connection means you're going to be you're going to be verbally abused, then

Stephanie Winn: No. That one is really tricky because there is this cluster B personality type traits and behaviors very prevalent in the trans identified community. I consider it a trifecta of social contagion where you have the cluster B type traits and behaviors working in conjunction with gender identity, ideology, and certain beliefs about social justice. And those three are a powerful combination. And I've told certain families that it sounds to me like the emotional abuse dynamics and the personality traits that their child seems to be developing are a bigger area of concern, especially when I see, you know, how fearful the parents are and how much they've been coddling, enabling, tiptoeing, doing anything to avoid another dramatic explosion. And sometimes I'm helping parents weigh the pros and cons of like, you know, what is it costing you? And what is it maybe even costing your kid and their personality development and their potential to be healthy in the long run? for you to prioritize this goal of trying to prevent medicalization or prevent social transition at all costs over looking at the bigger picture of just personality formation and interpersonal behavior? Yeah.

Jane Wise: For so many of them, it's like, OK, how far can I let this go? What do you mean by that? Well, the ones where the kids haven't medicalized yet, You know, and it's like, OK, well, maybe I'll they they're not so many. They're just not sure. Well, should I use the pronoun? Should I not use the pronoun? Should I do that? You know what I mean? It's just kind of like they don't want their kid to medicalize. But I think sometimes they feel like if they can just let them. dress this dress the way they want. If they can just let them do this, if they can just let them, that'll kind of let some of that steam out so that that way they won't feel so pressured to go all the way. And it's like, okay, but does that make it more or less likely is the question. Do you know what I mean? So many times I will say to the parents, so they, and they, you know, pretty universally agree with me. If it were all about, you know, names, pronouns, clothing, it wouldn't be as big a deal at all. Do you know what I mean? Because that's all stuff you can change, you know, but knowing that names, pronouns, clothing can ultimately lead to physically harming themselves or socially rejecting the parents, even if they don't go down a medical pathway, it's I mean, those are the really difficult things.

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Jane Wise: I mean, if they just come out and say, listen, I'm not exactly sure what you mean.

Stephanie Winn: I was just speaking more broadly about double binds, but you brought up a very common particular double bind, which is that on the one hand, we need to make room for adolescent experimentation. Who among us did not go through a phase of some weird style, haircut, music that we were into or trendy thing that we now look back on and cringe? That's a normal thing, right? What's not normal is making it permanent. So, you know, the catch-22 in this case is I don't want to be a tyrannical parent who stops my kid from doing kid stuff. It's just that the consequences of this kid stuff are so huge. And so, like, for example, one of the techniques that I would teach a parent to use maybe in a situation like that, are you familiar with Chris Voss, the hostage negotiator? He wrote, never split the difference. Okay. This is audio only podcast. She's looking at me like, what? So, so he has this really simple phrase that he uses in negotiations, which is how am I supposed to do that? Right. So like I teach parents like variations on this. So, so you're telling me kiddo that all you want is this haircut or this, you know, t-shirt or whatever. And I'm a reasonable person. So like, I don't want to think I'm some kind of tyrant who's going to stop my kid from getting a haircut or a t-shirt. But deep down, I know because I've done my research, because I love and care about you so much, I know that persisting in the identity means you're likely to medicalize, which is life shortening. So how am I supposed to treat this lightly? You know, how am I supposed to have a relaxed supportive attitude about something that seems so small on the surface when I know the consequences of that.

Jane Wise: Yeah, that's brilliant. Absolutely. I need to take your course, Stephanie.

Stephanie Winn: That would really help me. So folks, what Jane is referring to here is that before we start recording, I mentioned that I'm working on this course. It's almost ready. I've been sort of hinting that I'm creating a resource. And Jane, I would love to give you access. I have a few therapist friends who are accessing the course right now, you know, to give me feedback. I have some wonderful people beta testing, telling me what they like about the course, what needs to be improved or added or clarified. And I would love for you, you know, I think my primary audience for this course is the parents, but I increasingly hear from other therapists. I'm sure Jane, you do too. Therapists who want to know how to help these parents. And, you know, I do, I'm very clear, like this is not therapy. I'm not diagnosing or treating you. This is consultation because You're looking for answers, you're looking to pick my brain as someone who has this kind of uniquely focused expertise on this matter, so let me tell you what psychology tools I think you need to understand, what communication skills I think will be helpful in meeting your kid where they're at. You know, so many parents, they're just looking for some kind of way to, like, force their kid out of this. And it's really more like it's learning how to dance step by step. It's like your kid moves this way. So then now what's your next move? And so many parents get it wrong because they're filled with all this information because they've done their research. They know how disastrous this stuff can be. They're terrified of those worst case scenarios. So they're trying to convince their kids. You can't go down this path. It'll be terrible. Here are all the reasons why it's terrible 10 steps down the line. But you're dealing with someone who's only thinking one step ahead. And the worst thing you can do is make them feel stupid because they have this adolescent ego of I am morally and intellectually superior. So what is the most attuned next step in the dance that you can take as the parent that actually matches the movement your kid just made that dances them out of this?

Jane Wise: Yeah, that's brilliant. How did you figure all this stuff out?

Stephanie Winn: I mean, so I had a similar process as you in 2020 and spent about a year and a half writing, thinking, talking to people. Then I launched my podcast. And then because of my podcast and because I was recruited for a film, I got a lot of media exposure. So then parents started reaching out to me. And at the very beginning, I was turning them down because I'm like, well, I'm not a therapist that's licensed in your state. And then I'm like, these people aren't looking for therapy. And so let me just talk to them. We'll call it consulting. I'm not diagnosing or trading anything. Let me just see what they need." And I started giving feedback based on my understanding of adolescent and young adult psychology, based on my understanding of cults, things like that, and just communication tools, strategies. And I started reading things like, you know, like Chris Voss, like hostage negotiation stuff, and just concepts from disparate fields that all seemed related, you know, books about cults, things like that. And parents started using the techniques and coming back and reporting them helpful. And so that's how I ended up just uniquely focusing on this issue. I had a health crisis earlier this year that I was like, I really can't be doing so many different things. So I stopped doing therapy, and I just only been doing consulting this year. And so I made the course in this context.

Jane Wise: Now, that's wonderful. And it's definitely a perspective I'd like to bring because, I mean, All I've really done with these parents is try to give insights when I can, but I haven't gone down that sort of path that you've gone down with. how can parents get more skilled at this? You know what I mean? And so I've just more been sort of a listening ear and helping them facilitate conversations between each other, which is what the PRODK does, you know. But I would love to bring that perspective of these are some tools that have been, you know, that are based in psychology, like you said, and start kind of start bringing some of those ideas to Paris, I think they'd be very great.

Stephanie Winn: I think it's tricky because anyone who has a sense of intellectual humility or professional responsibility is going to naturally be very careful not to oversell your qualifications and say, I have the answers to this incredibly complicated, high stakes, devastating, potentially devastating situation. And so you approach with humility and gentleness. You just bring your counseling skills, your active listening. That's, that's the safe and respectful path. It seems at the same time, I have personally like such a active problem solving mind and such a fighting spirit. that I'm like, desperate times call for desperate measures. Let's innovate. It's time to equip. So I'm always very careful. I'm like, I'm not going to guarantee the outcomes of any of these. In my individual consulting with people, I'm always like, well, let me help you weigh the pros and cons of your options. And then if they have an idea, I say, OK, let's play that out. Let's imagine, how does your kid respond? Here's how I think they might respond. Does that sound right? So I think it's a fine line between saying nobody has a guaranteed way to get your kid out of this madness. But at the same time, let's also be a little bold in taking risks sometimes in our effort to help people because sometimes that's how that's how you innovate. And I would assume, you know, you're this is an audio only episode, so people can't see you. But I can tell that you're older than me. You've probably been counseling many years. And I'd imagine that there's a wealth of experience in there. And I wonder, like, do you in your role feel any hesitancy or do you feel torn between sharing what you know versus making sure that you're, you know, practicing intellectual humility and not overstepping your bounds?

Jane Wise: I think more on this issue, I'm just, I have my own anxieties about it. Do you know what I mean? Because it's so high stakes? Yes, it's so high stakes. I'm I get a lot more nervous in this role at making suggestions than I do in my counseling. I specialize in addiction, so I deal with addiction all day long. I have no problem making suggestions. But to these parents, I'm always scared that if I make a suggestion and they take it too much to heart, and that's going to be the thing that drives their kid away. You know, I mean, so one of the reasons I think I'm really drawn to the idea of specific skills. One thing I have shared with parents is a technique that we use a lot in addiction counseling, which is motivational interviewing. Yeah, explain that. Yeah, I have. I have shared that with them and and talk to them a little bit about that, just about how you can ask kind of leading questions, kind of point out some contradictions and try to try to help the help their child to kind of think through things.

Stephanie Winn: Could you explain that just from the ground up? Explain, for instance, what is motivational interviewing for those who've never heard about it? And could you give an example of how you might teach that? Oh, wow. OK.

Jane Wise: Well, basically, it's just a technique to help people come to their own conclusions. So you point out contradictions. Whenever somebody is ambivalent about something, you try to help them see find a reason not to be ambivalent. You know what I mean? To kind of like go in a healthy direction. So there are there are specific techniques. There's that they're called the oars, open, open questions, affirmations, reflect reflective listening, summaries, things like that. So but it's a lot of listening. It's a lot of trusting people to make the right decision for themselves as long as we help them sort of figure that out and resolve the ambivalence that they have.

Stephanie Winn: See, I think our techniques are not that far apart because I don't specialize in motivational interviewing. I studied it in grad school and I don't think it's come up much since, so I would never put motivational interviewing on my list of modalities. But some of the principles that you just described are sort of embedded in my approach. For example, I mean, just the fact that it relies on a foundation of understanding that ultimately the other person has their own free will. When you are a therapist using motivational interviewing for a patient who's coming to you for an addiction, that patient is coming of their own free will. And even if, let's say, even if you're in a setting where that's not the case, let's say you're a therapist working in, you know, a facility where your client has been involuntarily hospitalized, still at the end of the day, that person's going to be acting of their own free will. And so I think the foundation of motivational interviewing is that you are interviewing for the person's motivation, for their own motivation, and you're recognizing the importance of ambivalence in decision making. And so these are the same principles that are embedded in my course, my approach, because I teach parents, you know, most of the parents who come to me, their kids are over 18. And the ones who are under 18, some of them are going to be 18 in six months. Or, you know, maybe they live in a state where the parental rights are being eroded, even if the kid is a lot younger. So ultimately you have very little power here as the parent, plus you're dealing with the adolescent ego. So really the only thing you can do is recognize that, uh, there's a lot of sort of juvenile false certainty that's covering up some underlying anxiety and insecurity. your kid has their own signs of ambivalence and doubt, you as a parent need to learn how to look for those signs. So then from there, like you are, it's your role to befriend that, the ambivalence and doubt. So I think we're actually on the same page about that approach. And I would love to hear, I know you're not like ready to role play or anything right now, but I wish I could be a fly on the wall for one of your appointments where you're in your element, teaching someone specifically how to apply motivational interviewing to working with their kid. Cause I actually think that's right on target.

Jane Wise: Yeah, I mean, I don't know that I have it. I just I just kind of try to sort of explain that is explain what it's about. And then, you know, just kind of look look for contradictions. Are they saying, oh, if they ever say, yeah, you know, I really if you ever sense any sort of a doubt, oh, well, what's what's that about? Or I see this, but I hear this, you know, pointing out the contradictions kind of thing.

Stephanie Winn: Totally. And where so many parents miss those opportunities because they're busy being the source of doubt about gender. But then it's like the important thing is that it feels like your kid's own idea. So when you're reflecting it neutrally like that is very helpful because it's then the kid's able to see that it's coming from within them. Right. I also think that addiction is a really helpful model for understanding because there's so many similarities between addiction, obsessive compulsive disorder, and gender stuff. So with your addiction background, what do you think of that?

Jane Wise: It's such an escape from whatever is bothering them. It basically is they're told this is the drug that's going to fix you, you know, and it's like, oh, just try this. So, no, I know you're not happy yet. We'll try this now. Oh, you're still not happy. We'll try this now. And it's just they keep going down that road and it gets more and more extreme, more and more extreme. And, you know, until some of them finally say, How the hell did I get here? I even noticed kind of just metaphorically how I feel like with detransitioners, they kind of remind me of these heroin addicts. I spent several years dealing exclusively with heroin addicts and just the wrecks that they make of their lives. I mean, alcoholics too, but I mean, the people that have done the hard drugs and they had time in prison and all that kind of stuff. And I still deal with a lot of those people and just how they have to face the reality of what they've done and where their lives have bought into. Because I feel like these detransitioners, that's basically, you know, they've gone down this road. And I think that the biggest thing for them to recognize is it's not their fault. I always tell them, this is not your fault. If you weren't being told by professional people that this was a good thing, or, you know, being enabled by professional people, you never would have gone down this road to start with. you know, you might have made some goofy choices, fine, but you wouldn't have hurt yourself, you wouldn't end up with this weird low voice, you wouldn't have, you know, had this horrible surgery and all this stuff. And so many of them feel so guilty for that, you know, and so I think the number one thing with them is to let them know that, that this is not their fault, but also just, you know, now you're left with whatever your life became, you know, you're not going to be able to go back and change it all, you're not going to be able to go back to the beginning, and you don't get a do-over. That's a big thing with the long-term addicts. No, we don't get to go back and repair our kids. You don't get to go back to your adolescence and take advantage of all those opportunities you didn't take advantage of. You don't get to go back to your house that you lost. We have to just rebuild from here.

Stephanie Winn: Those are the hard facts, and that's a really interesting comparison. It's like it's not your fault, but it is your responsibility. It's the nature of the beast. You know, there was something you were saying earlier, and I wish I could remember more clearly right now what exactly it was you were saying, but I wanted to say at the time, I mean, I think it just has to do with the high stakes nature of the situation. The thing that keeps everyone on eggshells, including the parents, including you sometimes, the thing that makes you hesitant because you're afraid, because you know what's at stake, that is the nature of the beast of gender ideology. And that's why I personally think of it as evil, because if you do believe in evil, or if you can think symbolically, regardless of whether you're a spiritual or religious person, just thinking symbolically, you know, if evil did exist in some kind of personified form, how would it behave, right? And I think one thing it would do would be to punish us relentlessly for our smallest flaws. It's like, you know, the notion of evil exists in relation to the idea of goodness or God, and people tend to associate that with grace and forgiveness. So the idea that, you know, from a spiritual perspective, that there is a higher source of love that accepts us with all of our foibles, that we can be forgiven, right? That's the nature of goodness. So if that's the nature of goodness, then what is the nature of evils? It's that our slightest flaw deserves infinite punishment. And that's what I think gender ideology is. It takes our hubris, our foolishness, our youthful naivete. It takes any weakness that we have and exploits it to the point where we are There are people punished for the rest of their lives through constant pain and what might feel like torture even. I mean, that's hell on earth.

Jane Wise: And addiction is the same. For some reason, I just thought of one client that I had who was, she was 12 years old and taken to an abandoned building and raped and left for dead. And right after that, her addiction started, you know, and that wasn't her fault. She ends up in a heroin addiction the last year of her whole life. Last I last I saw her, she still was she still was absolutely using it, unfortunately. And it just yeah, I mean, it just it just gets in there and takes advantage of whatever weakness you may have and exploits it and destroys your life and the lives of everybody around you.

Stephanie Winn: I guess continuing along with this, you know, sort of the nature of evil and this idea of eternal relentless punishment for our weaknesses. I think if parents aren't careful, they can get very, it's like, if you're not cognizant of the nature of the beast that is affecting your family and your world, then the way you feel that is with tremendous anxiety. So you know, with my course, like I mentioned, I address this sort of cluster B dynamics of the behavior that's that's caught through the social contagion. And so I teach about, for example, a concept of emotional blackmail and this acronym that you've probably heard of the fog, fear, obligation and guilt, right, that these these emotions of fear, obligation, and guilt can often be indicators that you are being subjected to emotional blackmail or to otherwise, you know, cluster B emotional abuse dynamics. So it's easier seen from the outside, you know, those of us who have years of training in psychology to be able to look at it and recognize what wisdom we can learn from emotions, what emotions are telling us. that you are being subjected to some kind of abuse or harassment, and that this is the nature of the beast itself, and that you can learn from that. But I think for people who are in it, they're not necessarily able to think clearly when they're in that fog, and they just feel it, and it impacts their decision making. And then and then they feel it too, because just like it's this parallel process where the youth are caught up in the nature of this beast that is unrelenting, that is punishing them, that is basically leading them into evil with their own weaknesses used against them, their own youthful hubris, making them think it's their own idea, which is where it's sort of the mind virus idea comes in. And then the parents get dragged into it because they feel this parallel process of the ways in which they feel like their every flaw is being scrutinized or their every flaw or any misstep could lead to permanent irrevocable harm. And then you feel it in your position, doing counseling, doing a support group, I imagine any therapist or consultant or coach who is trying to help these parents ends up feeling that parallel process too, where if I make one misstep, if I get this wrong, or if my own personal flaws get in my way to any degree, the consequence could be something so unforgiving.

Jane Wise: Yeah, and it's even hard when I feel like You know, I've made suggestions that are helpful, and the parent goes away going, OK, yeah, we're going to try that. And yeah, hopefully, you know, whatever. Then they come back, no, no, everything's worse. It's OK. Yeah, it's really such a challenging, you know, demoralizing process.

Stephanie Winn: I guess I'm a little skeptical that everything's worse, because I think sometimes you have to kind of like zoom out and see the bigger picture. sometimes things might appear to be getting worse before they're getting better. Like, for example, I had a family really stressed out because their child got a t-shirt that said ally on it, okay? But I'm looking at the situation thinking, what are all the different ways this could possibly be interpreted? And one way, I mean, clearly, you know, because I see through the lens of, you know, one of the toolkits I use is Jonathan Haidt's moral foundations theory. So looking at it through moral psychology, this is about good people and bad people. This is a teenager who sees in black and white terms, you're either a good person or a bad person. And if you're a good person, you're an ally. Right. So first of all, you have to understand this is coming from the youth's desire to be a good person and to be seen as a good person amongst their friends. So are you going to come at them and criticize them for that? Or are you going to befriend their desire to be seen as a good person, first of all? Right. But then, you know, then I started thinking, too, like ally, the idea of being a so-called queer ally. could actually be a step out of the trans identity, just like some kids step down from trans to non-binary as their way of gently walking it back. If you're a child who's been like, I'm trans, this is my identity, then you start so-called identifying as an ally. Maybe that's your way to stay on the good people side. Because again, there's this unrelenting sort of nature of the beast that punishes the so-called bad people And you don't want to be one of the bad people. So could it be that this is actually the kid saying, I'm still a good person even if I'm not trans because I'm an ally? So if you're looking at it through the lens of everything that could possibly go wrong, then you're like, oh no, my kid has an ally t-shirt. And what does that mean? And yes, you could look at it that way. And if you spend too much time obsessing over all the possible things that could go wrong believe me, the information is out there, then you will end up really frantic. But at the same time, like, how could we reframe this as a good thing? How could we, you know, possibly see this as maybe a step towards desistance? I think you almost have to be near delusionally optimistic. I feel like I'm always, in order to help these families, I'm like, how can I frame this in a positive way? Because if I don't, I'm just going to get sucked into their hopelessness and then I'm no use to anybody.

Jane Wise: I spend a lot of my time with them. It really, it really feels like an Al-Anon meeting, honestly. And, and the woman who is kind of the national leader of us, she's, she's, she has an Al-Anon background. I have an Al-Anon background. And, and a lot of it is just, we just have to do the best we can and let the rest go. You know, we just got to take care of ourselves. We just got to, you know, know that we're doing our best. know that there's no perfect right answers, you know, and know, and know that we're dealing with something really, really hard and really difficult and that, you know, we just, we just love these kids and want what's best for them. But this is, but this is a really powerful beast that, that they're fighting, you know? So that's, you know, that's a lot of what I say is just, you know, hang in there. You're doing the best you can. And I, you know, I hear you, I see you, and I'm always here to listen and support you. And it's just, it is just, it's just a lot of, a lot of pain, a lot of worry, a lot of anxiety.

Stephanie Winn: And detransitioners, there's this weird dynamic between detransitioners and parents sometimes where you have like 25 year old detransitioners who don't have stable employment or relationships. They've got complex PTSD and now they're in the public eye. and 50, 60 year olds are coming to them for advice. How do I help my kid not turn out like you? I mean, it's a weird relationship dynamic, which is, it can be, some of those relationships can be mutually beneficial if they're approached with respect and consideration for the dynamic and the other person's feelings. And sometimes those relationships can feel exploitative to the people who are hurting on both ends, really. But I mean, I've seen multiple instances of detransitioners responding to parents saying, There is nothing my parents could have said to me.

Jane Wise: of all the love bombing and the support and all this kind of stuff. I mean, that's why, you know, when I hear parents say, and certainly not every parent is able to do this, especially not with adult children, but when I hear parents say, yeah, I was able to get my kid away for a summer, And they really weren't online. They weren't at the same school. They were out doing all this stuff. And they're like, I feel like I have my kid back. They weren't talking about the gender stuff anymore. And that right there, if you can actually see a moment like that as a parent, that's a contradiction that you can gently bring to the kid's attention. You seemed so happy when you were there. What do you think the difference was? You know, now that we're back here, you just don't seem the same.

Stephanie Winn: Well, and on that note, when you talk about the love bombing that the cult uses, I'm thinking about a family I know where their kid went off to work in a different state for the summer at a job that required being outdoors and physical activity and a challenging environment, but a very down-to-earth environment. And the kid was having a hard time, with various aspects of it, but the parents really encouraged the kid to stay. And then the parents went to visit the kid and bought them a few specific items to make their time easier, like very practical items that fit their lifestyle at the time. And they said the kid seemed so, so appreciative, much more appreciative than their usual self. And I remember talking with them afterward about you just gave your child a very viscerally felt experience of what actual love does, like how people who actually love them are going to show up, which is that combination of love and limits that know you need to stay here because it's good for your character development, because you need to know you need to come out the other side of this and know that you can be Finish what you put your mind to, that you started this job, you're gonna finish this job, and you need to stay there, but we love you, we're gonna come visit you, we're gonna buy you the exact things you need, not the things you want, the things you need, so that you can sustain this experience. Those are such palpable experiences, but they have to come in a container of severely limited internet access. and visceral embodied experiences, which it seems like are the number one thing missing for these youth. And it's also the easiest thing to control for parents of younger kids, you know, the ones who actually have the means to restrict limits on screen time and to say, no, you're volunteering at the animal shelter this summer or, you know, whatever the thing is. Once the kids are out of the parents' hands, though, it can be really tricky to exert any control on how they're spending their time or what their environment is.

Jane Wise: Absolutely. And, you know, even the younger ones, that just made me think of a parent who was telling me that her child, like in a middle school, middle school age kid, she started to realize that this kid was going down the trans pipeline and all this kind of stuff. And just realized that while he was saying he was doing homework, he was not doing homework. was, he was getting into all this stuff and she took, you know, she took, she took the internet away and he's just barely speaks to her now, you know? So there's, I mean, there's a cost whenever you set those limits, you know? And it's just, yeah, and then again, you know, she's in the waiting game. It's like, okay, now what's going to happen, you know?

Stephanie Winn: I love sleep. Sound sleep is a crucial foundation of good mental and physical health, from mood and concentration to metabolism and cellular repair. And I sleep very well thanks to my 8 Sleep Pod Pro Cover. My side of the bed is programmed to be warm when I get in and cool down to a neutral temperature in the middle of the night so I don't wake up overheated like I used to. How would you customize your bed temperature? Visit 8sleep.com and use promo code SUMTHERAPIST to take up to $200 off your purchase. Even if they're already running another sale, this code will get you an additional $50 off. Eight Sleep currently ships not only within the USA, but also to Canada, the UK, select countries in the European Union, and Australia. Thanks for considering purchases that support the show. It's hard for me to know without spending hours interviewing someone as to their whole history. But from my relatively fortunate position, I tend to speculate about you know, when I hear that a kid is living with their parents and being that disrespectful as to not even speak to them, you know, I'm wondering, like, were they having meals together prior to this? Were there expectations around when you're at the dinner table, you're not on your phone, you're politely engaging in conversation, you know, just the norms and routines of a household that create a sense of social cohesion and manners and things like that, not to judge this person you just told me about who I know nothing about, but when I do have families coming to me describing extremely disrespectful behavior, I wonder partly how we got here and whether there is a history of having had expectations for conduct and, you know, consequences for not meeting those expectations because sometimes all I see is what appears to be the result of years of permissive parenting. And another thing I will say, because I really want to kind of soften and round out what I just said, because I realize it might sound really harsh. Another thing is that sometimes it's the kids who were never problematic, who never required limits, the ones who were always very agreeable and cooperative, the golden child that ends up in this role Or another dynamic I've seen is parents who were very, very loving, really good families. And they sadly erroneously assumed something you would hope would be safe to be assumed, which is that if I'm just really loving and we create a really, really good family environment, my kids will understand the value of love and the value of a secure family. They'll appreciate everything I worked hard to provide for them. And I think that's a beautiful fantasy, and I hope that that works out for some people. But sometimes what you get is the opposite. Sometimes you get youth who are grateful, or excuse me, ungrateful, who take all of that for granted. And then when you introduce the cluster B aspect of the social contagion, you get kids rewriting history and taking the most ordinary either flaws that their parents had or limits that they set or whatever and turning it into a story of how they were abused or neglected. And it's like, this is what I get as a parent from the parent's perspective. This is what I get for, you know, working so hard to overcome my own childhood, you know, for marrying well, choosing an excellent, father or mother for my children, you know, like I've done so much to try to create the optimal environment for my kids. And the thanks I get for that is that now their threshold for distress is an inch high. And I've just violated them by telling them they can't stay up till midnight on the computer. And now I'm an abuser. I mean, it's just, it's wild.

Jane Wise: Yeah. Yeah, and a lot of that is cultural now, right? I mean, it drives me crazy how everybody and their dog is being labeled a narcissist. Like a narcissist is a very specific thing. You know, that's a pretty extreme thing to really be an art. I mean, to me, when I think of that word, I think of somebody who has no empathy, you know, literally can't think of anybody but themselves. And then people will say, oh, you're a narcissist, and so you're toxic, and so I'm going to cut you out of my life. And it can be for the most minor of offenses now, but especially with the whole trans thing.

Stephanie Winn: It's such a trippy hall of mirrors when you look into that dynamic because there are real cluster B dynamics. And when I say cluster B for those in the audience, narcissistic personality disorder is one of the cluster B disorders. So it's borderline histrionic and antisocial. And rather than labeling people narcissists, what I like to do is talk about cluster B type traits and behaviors as part of the social contagion. But you see these cluster B traits prevalent in society And then the people with, sometimes it's like the people with the cluster B traits are the ones who are most gravitating toward that idea of, oh, my parent is a narcissist. All of their behavior is toxic. I need to go no contact. And then they start using the lingo of actual narcissistic abuse survivors. And so I don't trust any of it anymore, except my own instincts and the perspectives of people who I highly regard. I'm very selective about things like gossip, you know, because I know what it feels like to have my character assassinated and my reputation raked over the coals over something I said on social media that someone took out of context. So I don't ever want to be that person for other people, except, you know, amongst people whose opinions I really trust when we have a really good reason for sharing some inside information over, you know, reasons to doubt a person's character. But then I see like, so I have a friend who I have a therapist friend who has argued that there needs to be some kind of DSM diagnosis for, you know, a person affected by cluster B dynamics and someone in their life. And on the one hand, as a therapist, I'm like, I know exactly what you mean, because I had so many patients who had suffered so much at the hands of someone in their life who really seemed like an emotionally abusive person. But at the same time, when everyone is labeling that and everyone else, and you can't tell who's the abuser. I mean, it's just one big drama triangle.

Jane Wise: And so it's something that I've been thinking for a while is that the whole idea of these marginalized community of trans people turns people into people who want to be good people. It really brings out the rescuer. And then when somebody comes along and says, wait a minute, I don't go along with this for whatever reason. Now, suddenly they're the persecutor. and the rescuer will kill the persecutor. And I think that's where a lot of the whole cancellation dynamic comes in. Well, no, we need to kill the persecutor. And I really felt that way because one of the experiences I had shortly after changing my views on all of this is somebody that I really cared about. I didn't know her in person, but I had known her parents from a lifetime ago. And I really cared about this young woman. And she just really said, well, you've joined a hate group. And I tried to reason with her. And like you were saying earlier, show her some of the harms. that I was not aware of. Hey, listen, women are getting raped in prison by these men who say that they are, you know, said that they're trans and like nothing, nothing penetrated. And it was all just like just like, oh, you joined a hate group. You joined a hate group and you're just a hateful person now and you're just probably going to be against abortion. And what? But yeah, then I I got canceled by her and just told, you know, told the F off. It was so painful. you know, that's nothing compared to what these parents go through.

Stephanie Winn: I've had really similar experiences, and I included a lesson on the drama triangle as part of the course for a reason, because those dynamics are just all over the place. You know, I learned a lot from Jonathan Haidt, and I happened to read The Righteous Mind right before the pandemic.

Jane Wise: Have you read that one, Jane? I have not. I only recently became aware of Jonathan Haidt, if he's the one that the guy that I'm thinking of.

Stephanie Winn: He wrote The Anxious Generation most recently. Yes.

Jane Wise: Yeah. So, yes. And I read a minute somewhere. I was like, oh, I need I need to learn more.

Stephanie Winn: Yeah. He's one of my favorite thinkers and in The Righteous Mind. So it's it's a really good book on moral psychology. It's definitely like part of the foundation I draw from. And, you know, just teaching parents to think in terms of moral psychology so that you hear your child differently, so that you're hearing them really saying, I want to be one of the good people and not one of the bad people. And to break things down to the, his idea of the moral palette of like the care versus harm foundation, the idea of sanctity as a conservative value, all this kind of stuff. Oh, what was I going to say? Oh yeah. So in that book, He talks a lot about the emotion of disgust and its connection with moral psychology, because we feel disgusted when something violates our sense of what's moral. But also, where does the emotion of disgust comes from? Well, it has to do with fear of contamination, which was a much bigger issue up until recently. I mean, now we have modern sanitation, modern medicine. But up until recently in human history, without those technologies, you could easily be affected by germs from outsiders without, and before we knew what germ theory was. So before we understood the power of microbes, for example, we knew that maybe we had contact with an outside tribe and then our tribe fell sick. And we interpreted that as their tribe is casting spells on us. They're doing evil witchcraft against us. So there's a strong connection between the emotion of disgust and fear of contamination and rigid morality. And there were studies I read about in his book where very slight exposure to cues that reminded us of the potential for others to contaminate us, those cues made people behave in more morally rigid ways. So I read this all like maybe January, February, 2020, and then the pandemic hit. So it was all like really fresh on my mind. And, and I, you know, I can't help but to think that way when you describe your interaction with your former friend and the interactions I've had like that where you did something to trigger the moral disgust, the fear of contamination. And what do we do when we're afraid something's going to contaminate us? We quarantine. We cannot have any contact with it.

Jane Wise: And I do think that's a lot of where the rejection comes in, where these kids feel like they, if they're not being supported 100% in their trans identity and all that kind of stuff, they have to just completely separate themselves from parents or anybody who isn't 100% supportive.

Stephanie Winn: It's the idea they're going to be harmed. that we are sources of harm. And they're being told that, that therapists like you and I are out to harm them. Which you have to wonder about the psychological implications of believing that you are so frail, of believing that, you know, because I'm, I mean, nobody can actually see you since this is an audio-only episode, but I'm sitting across from you, well, across the screen, and I can see what you look like, and you don't look like a very threatening person, you know? There's a generation being taught that you are a threat to them by the power of your ideas.

Jane Wise: Well, I hope I am a threat to them going down a negative pathway. I hope I am a threat to that. You know, it was funny because I told one of my groups, right, I do groups here, and I told one of my groups I was going to be interviewed in a podcast. And they said, and I was talking that night about my definition of addiction. And they were like, that's really good. You need to say that. And, and, but I do think it applies to what we're saying. And my definition of addiction is a powerful, destructive habit. And so, and I think that that definitely applies to the whole, you know, trans pipeline. It's powerful. They cannot get enough of it. It's incredibly destructive. And it's a habit, meaning it gets laid down and they just keep going back and going back and going back and going back. And it just keeps getting more and more extreme.

Stephanie Winn: That's a really concise definition. I have a lesson in the course where my lessons, some of them are just like a single topic, like for example, like cognitive dissonance, right? This one I ended up lumping together neuroplasticity, obsessive compulsive disorder, and addiction into one sort of bigger lesson. Because as I started to explain one, it connected to the other. And so when you talk about a powerful destructive habit, you know, in my mind, the way it works is that a person finds, you know, it starts with a person finding some kind of relief, escape, or comfort in the idea that they are trans. or in some habit related to transing, such as, you know, binding or tucking or whatever, it starts with getting, you know, a comfort or release or relief out of that. And then just the same as you would with the cycle of someone developing an addiction or developing obsessive compulsive disorder, if that becomes the go-to coping mechanism for every emotion, then you're strengthening those neural pathways, meanwhile weakening or not building other neural pathways. And so that's how compulsions and addictions are built. And then a person takes, after thousands of iterations of those thoughts and feelings linking together, then a person takes something like a boy being called ma'am in a restaurant and him lighting up and feeling so-called euphoria he takes that as confirmation that this means he's a woman. And really it's like, no, you have primed yourself for that through psychological repetition. And, and this can be unlearned and it would be ideal to unlearn it because then you're physically intact. And you've also learned to master the power of your own brain, but that, that according to some is so-called conversion therapy. And with the audio only version of this episode that's going on YouTube, there will be a banner below that with a note from the Trevor project on conversion therapy that will appear automatically on this video. I always have, I always have kind souls who are just discovering this for the first time. Every time I do a video where the topic of conversion therapy is mentioned or even anything in that ballpark, There's always that Trevor Project warning on YouTube and someone thinks they're the first to point out they're like, did you know that there's like, yes, I know it's been happening since episode 11. But thank you for looking out. It's pretty ridiculous.

Jane Wise: Yeah, the Trevor Project was very, I've done some work with WDI USA on the legislative angles with things trying to fight or support state laws. And I looked pretty deeply into the Trevor Project and they like to point out the suicide statistics and all this kind of stuff, but there's absolutely nothing in there that says that medicalization will health, mental health, will prevent suicide, nothing. It's just a sort of implication that they like to ride on. But there's zero evidence, zero evidence that it will. And there was nothing in the Trevor Project, the whole thing, nothing. And everybody will quote the Trevor Project. Oh, we've got to give puberty blockers to kids. We've got to leave open access to medicalization. There's literally nothing in there about that.

Stephanie Winn: Nothing. I think there was some kind of recent event. I'm wondering if you know what I'm talking about. OK, I'm finding the news now. So a new report out by the BBC confirms that there has been no rise in suicide since the rollback of prescribing puberty blockers for gender confused youth. There was also in the UK an article in The Times by Libby Purvis that says talking up teen suicide risk is sick opportunism. Subtitle, claims that gender questioning children will take their life if deprived of puberty blockers has no foundation in fact. So yeah, the UK is definitely wising up. I've been seeing a lot of headlines like this going around. People saying enough with the irresponsible talk of suicide. It's not true. And in fact, it's harmful because there are impressionable people hearing this.

Jane Wise: It's horrific. And just the way that, as I'm sure you're aware, that professionals, you know, will present it, you know, in front of the, in front of the parent and the child, they'll say, well, you know, your child is probably going to commit suicide if you don't allow this to go forward. It's, I mean, it's, it's really, it's, reprehensible doesn't cover it. You know?

Stephanie Winn: Here's what I say in my course about that. If you're talking about a minor child, the natural response of any parent to that is not on my watch. Like, you know, this is being spoken as if the child has no agency and as if the parent has no agency. And it's like, step one, you need to find out if that's actually what the child's thinking. I mean, professional has no business saying that. It's incredibly irresponsible and it triangulates and weaponizes, you know, we could go into that. But is this actually how the child is thinking? So I have a lesson in my course about making sure that it's clear that self-harm is against the rules, because you'd be surprised. You might not be surprised, but other people might be surprised. How many families who their child has engaged in some kind of self-harm behavior, and the family has not actually made it explicitly clear that this violates our rules? You are not allowed to harm yourself any more than I would allow a stranger to come into our home and harm you. OK? We do not allow vandals to enter our house and put a knife to your arm. So you're not allowed to do that to yourself either, right? Like just self-harm is against the rules. That's one. So the parent needs to find out in the situation, if that's actually how the child is thinking, do they actually feel like they have self-control? Because if you set that authoritative limit, you're not allowed to harm yourself in my home or as, you know, as long as you're under my care, Does the child respond well to that because children do respond well to limits or do they report saying they're out of control? Okay. If they feel out of control, then that's information you need to know. If they feel out of control of their impulses, then you need to understand why they feel so out of control of their impulses. I mean, are we looking at severe OCD with intrusive thoughts? Is that what we're looking at? Like, what are we looking at here? Right. But in any case, the parent needs to be able to assess the threat and take whatever measures they need to take to keep their kids safe. I don't know. I've never met a parent. I mean, I've met some very neglectful parents long ago in certain like community mental health jobs. But in recent history, I have not met a parent. Who would just leave their child unattended with sharp objects or pills or weapons if they knew that there was any threat of self-harm, like a parent, a parent is an adult who's capable of making sure that their kid is physically safe. So this whole like, oh, your child will It's like, oh, there's so much to take apart there. And the fact that like, I mean, a parent's home is a relatively safe place for a child to be because you are with someone who loves you and is looking out for you. What we really need to consider is a long-term suicide risk. And we now know that the long-term suicide risk is greater in people who medicalize. So it's incredibly irresponsible to take an impulsive kid in a home with adults who are capable of keeping them safe and use the relatively incredible, non-credible threat of suicide at that age, when they are in that safe situation, to justify medical interventions that are actually going to increase their suicide risk long-term, potentially when the parents aren't around to protect them anymore. Well, Jane, any final thoughts swirling around in your head after all we've talked about?

Jane Wise: Back on my little powerful destructive habit thing, one question I get from clients a lot is, Well, what about good addictions? Like people who are addicted to running, I said, it has to be distracted. There has to be harm involved, you know? And I know, you know, and that's the biggest key, you know, is we have to help young people, you know, see the harms. See that their, you know, that their lives are probably not going to turn out better for you know, trouble care going down this pathway, at least do our best to help them understand that. But yeah, I'm just, you know, I was sorry for the parents. I'm really grateful to be working with the parents. You know, I'm really, I'm grateful there's people like you out there that are also, you know, dedicated to help, helping and supporting them. So many of them talk about how they, they just, you know, have no one to talk to. I have one, one parent who's been a young adult child, unfortunately died from the effects of the hormones because they had a medical condition. I'm so sorry. Yeah. So many, so many. sad and tragic stories. And the more that parents can get the support they need and get the tools that they need. And, you know, the more that society can wise up. I mean, I'm just very grateful that the UK is starting to talk about this since the CAS report in particular, you know, it started to talk about this more and recognize the harms of it more. And I just really hope that happens more widely in this country, especially on the left, because that's where it's so entrenched.

Stephanie Winn: So I know we're doing this semi-anonymously to protect your privacy, but if there are any parents out there who would like to speak with you or join your group, how could they get in touch?

Jane Wise: Parents of ROGD Kids website. For some reason, we haven't had a lot of new parents on there lately. And it's an American thing, so it's all across the United States. But they can just go on there and contact the organizers, and then the organizers will vet them to make sure that they are who they say they are and all that kind of stuff, because we don't let anybody in. And that's one of the reasons I wanted to do this without showing my face, because it's supposed to be a totally anonymous process. from the facilitators and the parents. So yeah, but it's a way to get just completely anonymous, safe support. And, you know, just from people that people will get what you're going through. It's just, it's a wonderful, it's a, it's a, it's just a, it's just a wonderful resource for parents who are struggling.

Stephanie Winn: Well, thank you so much for taking your time to help those parents and, you know, volunteering with parents of RGD kids. and for coming and sharing your knowledge on this podcast. I believe you're also on AXE, is that right?

Jane Wise: Well, yes, I am. I'm on AXE as Jane Wise and Jane, Jane, which woman?

Stephanie Winn: Thank you so much for joining me today. It's been a pleasure. Thank you, likewise. I hope you enjoyed this episode of You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist podcast. To check out my book recommendations, articles, wellness products, guest episodes on other podcasts, consulting services, and lots more, visit sometherapist.com or follow me on Twitter or Instagram at sometherapist. If you'd like to go deeper, join my community at somekindoftherapist.locals.com. Members can dialogue with other listeners, post questions for upcoming podcast guests to respond to, or ask questions for me to respond to in exclusive members-only Q&A live streams. To learn more about the gender crisis, watch our film, No Way Back, The Reality of Gender-Affirming Care, at nowaybackfilm.com. Special thanks to Joey Pecoraro for our theme song, Half Awake. If you appreciate this podcast and want more people to find it, kindly take a moment to rate, review, like, comment, and share on your platforms of choice. Of course, just because I am some therapist doesn't mean I'm your therapist. This podcast is not a substitute for medical advice. If you need help, ask your doctor or browse your local therapists online. And whatever you do next, please take care of yourself. Eat well, sleep well, move your body, get outside, and tell someone you love them. You're worth it.