You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist

Swell AI Transcript: 147. Wildfire Whispers.mp3
Wildfire Whispers:
The cultural shaming, the cultural taboo, which played up till now a pretty important role in that it made AGPs below like a certain stage. It sort of made them self-regulate because Yeah, you could go to the office and maybe get away with wearing panties under your suit. But because of cultural taboo, they had to kind of regulate it. They had to only do it at certain times. They had to only do it in certain places. It was still very difficult for them and their families. And like, it was all still going on at home. But as far as like, why are we seeing such a surge of flaming paraphiliacs? The cultural taboo was dropped. You must be some kind of therapist.

Stephanie Winn: Today's guest is Wildfire Whispers. What a name, huh? We met on X where she's very vocal as a gender critical advocate and a writer. And there's, I think, a lot of things that we could connect on. But today, What we're mostly going to talk about is that for many years, she ran a support group for the wives and girlfriends of men without a gynephilia, which from this point on, we will often refer to as AGP for short. And she has a very nuanced perspective on both the men and the women who have loved them or tried to love them. But I think we'll balance out some of the conversations we've had about AGP with other guests on this podcast. So I am excited to hear her perspective today. Wildfire, welcome.

Wildfire Whispers: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. And, you know, I've come to know you on X and to adore you as just a human. But before that, before we even connected, I was a longtime fan of your podcast. The whole day I've been like, oh my gosh, what's that? I get to go talk on the podcast? It's crazy. So I'm thrilled, giddy.

Stephanie Winn: You flatter me too much.

Wildfire Whispers: Oh, you're wonderful. Thank you for having me.

Stephanie Winn: Oh, thank you. for joining. So we've talked about autogynephilia a bit on this podcast. The first time was pardon my French, a shit show, because I took a chance on interviewing Phil Illey, and just happened to release that episode days before AGP gate at at the gen spec conference, which I had nothing to do with. I had nothing to do with that. I didn't even know he was going to be there with the whole man in a blue dress hanging out with the transitioners and Jen Speck promoting his book and you know the internet was on fire for 15 minutes as tends to happen. So I released that episode having nothing to do with the Jen Speck conference.

Wildfire Whispers: And coming out right before and then I was I'd watched the your video with him. And then I saw it at Genspec. I saw him at Genspec and that whole thing. I was like, Oh, no, Stephanie.

Stephanie Winn: Oh, no. And really, like, I was just taking a chance on hearing this guy out without knowing what his perspective was. He'd reached out to me a few times, I had a spot to fill and I'm open to talking to people with different perspectives. I didn't feel like I was endorsing any particular idea. I felt like I was pushing back. Some people thought I wasn't pushing back harsh enough. I'm like, well, you don't invite a guest into your home and then berate them. And similarly, you don't invite someone onto your podcast and then berate them. So if I'm going to disagree, I'm going to disagree respectfully. Anyway. Thank you. I appreciate that.

Wildfire Whispers: I thought you did well of letting him. And also, I think. I did a whole like kind of rabbit hole dive on him. I think he's he was trying very hard to present himself. I mean, first of all, to. to shock and to cause a reaction, not just at the GenSpec conference, but especially at the GenSpec conference. I think that it was obvious that GenSpec being, you know, holding the values that they do, a gender nonconforming people of any kind would be welcome there. But for him to, you know, put on the gloves that go up to here and blue velvet and show up, you're obviously I mean, he wants a reaction. But I think he was also trying really hard to set himself up as an academic. Because he was releasing his book. And he's trying to, you know, defend what he thinks he loves, you know, this, his addiction, his, I mean, it's guarding something that's very precious to him. So he wants it seen as a sexual orientation and it's just not.

Stephanie Winn: That's a valuable perspective. Thank you for sharing what you saw in that.

Wildfire Whispers: Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

Stephanie Winn: Well, and just to kind of like continue with naming where this topic has popped up before, as far as the limits of my podcast, you know, I also talked with Mary Kate Delvey, who's a mutual friend of ours. And she exposes, I mean, her whole kind of shtick is exposing some of the most perverted behavior out there, which needs to be exposed. And I think there is a place for the kind of mockery and scorn and derision and shaming that she brings to what is obviously deviant and destructive self-centered behavior. But that's not the whole. of what AGP is. And so I think you're going to bring a much different perspective. So, you know, in terms of this sort of third time that we're focusing on this issue in this podcast, I'm really grateful for your perspective, because it's nuanced, it's up close and personal. Oh, of course, I forgot to mention, this is not the third time, there's a fourth time because I also talked with Vaishnavi Sundar. Yeah.

Wildfire Whispers: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. No, we heard about it coming out way back when, when she was looking for people to interview. And she is amazing. I donated to that friend.

Stephanie Winn: Awesome.

Wildfire Whispers: I just support her so much. Oh my God.

Stephanie Winn: Yeah, so just for listeners who aren't familiar. Yeah, so Vaishnavi made a film called Behind the Looking Glass, that is also about the wives and girlfriends of men with AGP. And she really looks at, I think, probably the dark side of, you know, very, a lot of overlap with what you've seen, but really looking at the narcissism and the abuse, right? And so what I'm curious about in your experience is that you've seen that side of it and its impact on the women and the stages that they go through, but you've also seen cases in which a man heals He recovers from AGP. He sees that he's on a destructive path and turns it around. You've seen situations in which a couple was able to restore their relationship. You know, another episode, just like inventorying all the episodes that relate to this, is that I did speak with Laurel and Valerie Herbert, where that's another story that kind of mirrors maybe a different side because that was a couple that went through Laurel's transition and detransition together. Yeah.

Wildfire Whispers: Oh gosh, Laurel. They're in Colorado Springs, right?

Stephanie Winn: Somewhere in Colorado, yeah.

Wildfire Whispers: Yes. Oh, they're amazing. Yeah, I've seen a couple of his videos. Yeah, there's all kinds of, I mean, and running the group, When women go to search for support in that situation, which, you know, I didn't start the group or think, I'm going to go and help the wives. I needed that particular support at a certain time in my life. And so I went searching for I mean, and you can do it right now. You can Google it. You can pretend to have a husband or a, you know, boyfriend or partner with this problem, with this issue, and you're struggling with it. And you can look up, just try to find support for you. Try to find somewhere that you can go and talk with other people that are going through what you're going through without a certain end in mind. So if you look up support for the wives and partners of cross-dressers or whatever, what you will find, even back then before this was so crazy, is everything is about how to support the partner that is cross-dressing or, you know, like none of it is focused on the women. And so I really had to, I just squeaked into this group that was, and it had to go super private. By the time I was in control, we had to like hide it. But it was for women to be able to express their distress and negative feelings. It wasn't about how to make it all fine and make it so that you could support your husband or your boyfriend more in this.

Stephanie Winn: I just have to comment about the overlap between your experiences and the experiences of parents looking for help with their trans-identified kids, right? It's the same thing. If they're looking for help for themselves or their kids or the family in a holistic way, everything is about how to support your kid's new identity at oftentimes not only at your own expense psychologically, but also of course at the expense of their future health and wellbeing. So there's just so many similarities in this climate of so-called affirmation.

Wildfire Whispers: Exactly, exactly. And girlfriends and wives, I mean, it's very difficult for especially with some of the triggers of this. So one trigger that people don't talk about a lot is pregnancy. Pregnancy will set off AGP. So if you look at like, I mean, obviously I don't know who's the Mr. Beast guy, Chris Tyson. I don't know him personally. I don't know that this was the thing, but from, you know, I ran that group for about three years and about, you know, 200 plus women moved through there during that time. And based on the age, I think his kid was one and a half, two, when Chris came out and had his stunning and brave thing where he left his wife and young child. I saw that and I was like, I betcha he was an occasional cross-dresser. She got pregnant and his obsession escalated. Why do you think that is? Now, there are much more educated people than I, including yourself, who understand psychology at a much deeper level than me. But something that I would hear about and notice about these men was kind of a anxious and insecure attachment, I think is what you call it. Like their mothers weren't actively abusive. I mean, sometimes they were, but most of the time it was like they didn't get the full support and attention of their moms. Like they were just a little dismissive or sort of not present emotionally or physically. Like they just didn't have like full maternal support, support and beingness as kids. And so it's. To me, the way that I see it based on all of that is that it is a form of Peter Pan syndrome. They want to be nurtured. They want to be. Soft, they want to be taken care of and and with a lot of fetishes you'll hear eventually. It turns into a stress, you know, coping mechanism or whatnot. And they'll say, oh, I don't even do it, you know, sexually. It just helps me relax, you know? And I know that there's a certain like, I know there's psychological steps and terms for all of that as well, but it becomes like a ritualized stress thing. But it's also they just. It has a lot to do with motherhood, I think. OCD is also really comorbid in a lot of them. And. one of the comorbid fetishes, you know, paraphilias, they often cluster. Uh, apparently one of the most common is also diaper fetishism. So, and then medical fetishism. So like being helpless, being like needing someone else to take care of you. And then the ideas that, they have in their mind about women being submissive and the burden being taken off and all of these sort of very patriarchal, very like misogynistic ideas and then porn has turned that even deeper into it's humiliating, which plays into the shame. You know, I deserve to be humiliated. But at the same time, the cultural shaming, the cultural taboo, which played up till now a pretty important role in that it made AGPs below like a certain stage. It it sort of made them self-regulate. Because, yeah, you could go to the office and maybe get away with wearing panties under your suit, but because of cultural taboo… Yeah, they had to kind of regulate it. They had to only do it at certain times. They had to only do it in certain places. It was still very difficult for them and their families. And like, it was all still going on at home. But as far as like, why are we seeing such a surge of, you know, just flaming paraphiliacs? The cultural taboo was dropped. And so they have no reason for this to become ego dystonic, for them to think, maybe I should not let this go as far as it can. And so, yeah, I think even though there is, I see it a lot like cancer. It's, you know, I kind of have an idea of like four stages. There are stages of it and the ones that you see out, you know, if on on videos like walking into bathrooms with all the crazy. They're stage four. They're like, so there's like a progression in terms of nuance. I'm also very for bringing back the cultural taboo. And I think that speaking to the ridiculousness and bringing back the public shame a little bit Like Mary-Kate and many other people are doing, I fully support it. I really do.

Stephanie Winn: So you brought up a lot for us to circle back to, the four stages. Yeah, the four stages is one. You talked about the trigger of pregnancy and Peter Pan syndrome. Some of what you're saying reminds me of one of the lessons in my course, ROGD Repair. It's called autogynephilia as a safety blanket. So I kind of want to talk about that self-soothing. So I guess just a couple of comments, one with the pregnancy trigger, A woman becoming pregnant is a really significant time in a couple's journey together from extended adolescence to genuine adulthood, right? So if there is that dimension of Peter Pan syndrome, some of what I saw as a therapist for young women, oftentimes I noticed that their maternal instincts would come out and get directed towards their boyfriends and husbands and they wouldn't, necessarily always be conscious of it right away. But as women, we do have the instinct to care and nurture. And sometimes, especially when we don't have children, that could be directed to a man or a pet or a plant obsession, as is my personal tendencies. I mean, for a while there, while I was single, I had like 150 plants. I'm a plant assassin.

Wildfire Whispers: I need lessons the whole time.

Stephanie Winn: Or maybe you don't because you have a family to take care of. The plants can go ahead and die. The family's more important. But we have that instinct. And I would often see that sometimes women who were maybe unconsciously kind of babying the men in their lives, Their tolerance for the men acting like babies would completely change once a baby entered the picture, because then it's like, oh, this is who I'm supposed to be directing this instinct towards. This is an actually helpless being that truly needs me, and he should be, you know, doing the heavy lifting.

Wildfire Whispers: Yeah. If you're going to wear panties, at least make them big girl panties and, you know, like get some diapers and pull yourself together. And that's it. AGP men, they really require they they ask, they they desire, they demand. A huge amount of their wives attention and nurturing. I think there's so I mean, there's so many connections between what your course and what you do with our kids. As far as like I can, I can't wait to flesh out parallels with you further in the future. But yeah, they really require and demand this nurturing. If you listen, do you know who Shannon Thrace is?

Stephanie Winn: Name rings a bell.

Wildfire Whispers: She is a trans widow and she is. She's a brilliant writer. She did a TED talk where she read an excerpt from her book. It's called 18 Months. And it's it's the story of like her husband, you know, going through his breakdown. And she, oh, she's brilliant. So if you haven't seen her TED talk, whoever's watching this, go watch it after you finish this video and watch this video to the very last minute and hit like and subscribe and just show support to this woman.

Stephanie Winn: I always forget to say that, so thank you.

Wildfire Whispers: All right, I'm gonna call to action for you, baby. Yeah, hit like, smash the like button like it's the patriarchy. Sorry, I don't like to use the P word, but except, yeah, I think. I think of that whenever somebody says smash the like button. But Shannon Thrace, she puts it so beautifully in her book where you give the you give the this person that you love comes to you with something that feels very vulnerable and you give them attention and empathy and comfort. And instead of. Doing what people say, you know, they say it's going to do and like make this person stronger and healthier, especially in these men, you see them disintegrate. Um, they devolve, they, they lose their hobbies, they lose their friends, they lose, uh, they, they don't talk to anyone but their wife about it. And their wife is the, is not allowed to talk to anybody else about it. So she's in his closet and she is his whole support. And then, you know, if she's pregnant, if she has young children, that makes things worse for whatever, whatever reason it does. I have many theories, but. And then she's sleep deprived and. Mothering a newborn and going through hormone drops, and then he wants to grope her while she's breastfeeding, it is. It's crazy what these women go through. And then they they aren't able to speak about it openly because of things like custody, because of things like, you know, I mean, some women are like, will it go away or can we manage it? Can we balance it? And so like in our group, we would try to support every woman no matter where they were with it in their own lives. And obviously, we would try to help them set boundaries. AGPs hate boundaries. People in active addiction, I mean, sometimes a boundary is almost like they want to push against it more. So, you know, we would experiment and me and my moderators, we weren't, you know, experts in any way. We're not, you know, mental health providers or anything. So we were just like, but there's nothing out there on it. So we just like threw shit at the wall. We were like, all right, let's try this. Let's try this. And then we like kind of kept an eye out for signs of like domestic violence of severe control. Sometimes they're the husbands would break into the the group. And so if we suspected that somebody was not who they said they were, that their husband was impersonating them, we even had like little emojis to where like, OK, if somebody in the comments throws out this emoji, you're supposed to throw this one back if it's you. Um, so it was, but it was all very experimental and very like trying to support women wherever they were at. Some women couldn't walk away. Some women didn't want to. Um, by the end of it all, I mean, really what I've come to is. If if you are in love with with a man that is doing this, you have I mean, you have three options. You can. Leave, you can come to grips with the fact that you will be married eventually, you will be declared a lesbian. And be a married to a odd looking man who calls himself Susan and you have to burn all your wedding pictures or you can throw down an ultimatum and if they're willing to abide by it, then you have to go by like a you have to treat it like it is, like a sexual addiction, an essay, Al-Anon, those type of things, in that container, in an early enough stage, they can desist. But it's hard in this culture.

Stephanie Winn: That's the really interesting part that you have a unique perspective on that not a lot of other people know about. And it's not, possible for everyone. It probably depends on the degree of narcissism largely. I did want to say about the narcissism, you know, going back, one of the themes that was coming up that I was hearing what you were saying was the sense of insatiability that these men needed a lot of attention from the women in their lives and that it was like no amount of attention was ever enough. And that is often a key feature of narcissism. And part of me really wants to geek out and talk about the gestalt need cycle. Is that a concept you've ever come across?

Wildfire Whispers: Well, it's related to like, so have you ever heard Tony Robbins' Six Human Needs?

Stephanie Winn: Not familiar with that particular model but the Gestalt Need Awareness Cycle is just a tool that always pops up for me, well frequently pops up for me in some concept or another and it's about how we kind of go through this process so many times a day with small needs but also in terms of our larger needs of Basically having sensations and then becoming aware of those sensations and then becoming aware that we have options for how to address those sensations and fulfill those needs then choosing an option and going through with it and then Achieving satisfaction and moving on and that's a cycle that as simple as it sounds You know it applies to so many different things that can people can get stuck at various places and not know how to take care of themselves or respond to their needs. And one of the places people can get stuck is in the satisfaction part. And that's the link with narcissism, right? And that's where we get greed and insatiability. And part of that too is not having the gratitude for the chapters of your life that you're closing. So if a man, let's say a man is 25 and his, wife or girlfriend is pregnant with their first child, that is a time to give gratitude to the life you had as a young carefree person as you are graduating from that stage to the responsible person stage, right? But it's that insatiability that says, no, no, no, I haven't had enough. I'm not grateful for what I had. I need to get more of it. And so I'm hearing that as like a difficulty with assimilating and withdrawing and moving on that I just kind of had to highlight because it seems like maybe an important piece of understanding some of the psychology of people with this profile. But that being said, I mean, when you talk about the potential of recovery for some of these men, again, I'm speculating as someone who hasn't run one of these support groups, that the degree of narcissism is one of the factors affecting the potential for recovery, but what are, and you also said that there's four stages and that the earlier that a person can address the situation, the better. So what are the factors that go into determining whether this is something a person can or will move on from in their life? And then what can they do to move on? Or what can the people around them do? It sounds like ultimatums are one of the pieces.

Wildfire Whispers: Ultimatums is a big one. I mean, I think as far as like who can do it, it's very rare that that a man can break this. I mean, but it's also I think. I think it might not be as rare as we realize. Because this is something that is very steeped in shame for men, and I don't believe that the men that desist speak about it often and openly, and I wish more of them would. In my experience, I knew, I mean, out of the 200-ish couples that I heard about, I only knew the wives. But there were five. That. At least, I mean, for a couple of years, and this is the thing that the people that say that men can't recover from this will always say, oh, well, it's a binge and purge cycle, you know, I mean, which. Is. I never understood why, even when I or other, you know, wives or partners would go and seek therapists. Why this was treated as like, oh, crossdressers and such, AGP wasn't really a term used. They never quit. They never quit. And I was like, well, why is this the only sexual addiction that doesn't get help? Why is this the only sexual addiction that is considered You can't even try. You know, heroin addicts will quit and relapse, then quit and relapse. So I don't you know, I never understood why it was. And many of the women that were in my group didn't understand that either. Like, why? Why do you approach it with this like, well, you just have to like therapists will tell women either that they're lesbians and never knew it. And that's always a fun conversation. or that they have to negotiate with this addiction, that they have to either participate or like allow their husbands to go to clubs or do these things separately if she doesn't want to be a part, but telling him to stop is not a fucking option. Sorry, can I curse?

Stephanie Winn: Yeah, go ahead.

Wildfire Whispers: It's an option. It's an option. And I think telling women in families and lives where, you know, this is, especially in this affirmation only world, that they're not allowed to say just outright no is, It's bullshit. It's bullshit. You can say no, and they can say no to your no and they can move on and do their thing. But you can put down an ultimatum. And sometimes when we're doing something that's very self destructive, and we need somebody that's going to say this is a problem. This is a problem. It's not okay. I won't I won't live with it. And that's what creates the ego, it goes from being ego-syntonic to ego-dystonic when you're like, okay, well, this is how I want my life to be, but this conflicts with that. I think that that in and of itself, and what is OCD? It's a cluster C.

Stephanie Winn: OCD is not a personality disorder, but obsessive compulsive personality disorder is. Okay. Yeah, those are two different things.

Wildfire Whispers: Well, so like the ones with OCD seem, I mean, lots of them have OCD. But those ones, the ones that are full blown narcissists will not respond to an ultimatum in any way. I think the ones that at least would desist or would engage into a. Compromise, which are like a balancing situation with their wives. That they actually respected. Which we're talking rarer and rarer, so compromise is is rare. But some of them will. And those ones seem to be less of. real narcissists.

Stephanie Winn: Many of you listening to this show are concerned about an adolescent or young adult you care about who's caught up in the gender insanity and therefore at risk of medical self-destruction. I developed ROGD Repair as a resource for parents just like you. It's a self-paced online course and community that will teach you the psychology concept and communication tools the families I've consulted with have found most helpful in understanding and getting through to their children, even when they're adults. Visit ROGDRepair.com to learn more about the program and use promo code SUMTHERAPIST2025 at checkout to take 50% off your first month. That's ROGDRepair.com. Well, you were talking about limits, right? And saying no, and it reminds me of the conversation that I had right before this one. Now, these episodes will be coming out probably a few weeks apart, but I actually spoke to him earlier today, Jaco Fonsell, and he's a psychologist and he was talking about the reality principle versus the pleasure principle and how part of part of the task of growing up is reconciling your desire for pleasure with the hard limits of reality and so it seems like as long as the wives and girlfriends are bending over backwards, contorting themselves trying to figure out how to help these men basically have their cake and eat it too. How to let them do something that's disgusting and off-putting while still having a woman there catering to them. That's, that's allowing him to live in fantasy and the confrontation with the ultimatum of saying, you know, for a woman to say this is my life, I get to choose what I want in my life and I don't want a relationship with a man who's more in love with the idea of himself as a woman than he is with me. That's something I get to say no to. I get to say that that's a turnoff. that that's not someone who inspires my generosity, what to speak of my sexuality. So it's that confrontation with the reality of another person, what their limits are, that either some men, like you say, if they're too big of a narcissist, they're just going to escape further into fantasy. But if there is the neurotic ability to grapple with reality, that more, like you said, that more OCD profile, OCD is You know you don't have a cd without high neuroticism and neuroticism means being grounded in reality now it extremes o cd can be somewhat delusional but i'm not getting into the fine print on that my point is that it seems like. A woman who's in the situation who does not want this. owes it to herself to find the courage to deliver that ultimatum, to say what she wants or doesn't want in her life. And that's ultimately going to be the test of how entrenched this man is in these problematic patterns. Now, you did mention addiction several times. So do you want to explain why you would use the term addiction to describe this pattern in men?

Wildfire Whispers: Because it's exactly what it is, especially when you've seen it up close and personal. and then shared that experiences with many other women who have. It follows the same. I mean, it is it is a sexual addiction. It has the craving, the anticipation, the craving, you know, the cycles, the craving, anticipation, the, you know, meeting of the whatever that cycle is, and then the relief. And then it starts over. It is absolutely that if. And then it progresses, it gets worse and worse. So I, you know, stage one, and then this is all my theory, right? This is just my… Yeah, tell us your theory with the four stages. My theory with the four stages is, you know, stage one is kind of sexualization and… experimentation. And that might be when they're young, putting on, you know, being fascinated. They use the word fascination with their mother's or sister's clothing or whatever. And then there's the, oh, there's the badness. And it's a little dangerous to go in and steal that piece of, you know, clothing, underwear, stockings, whatever. So there's that danger element. They get a rush out of that. And so it's just kind of a thrill and sexualized, you know, just sort of like kink experiment or whatever, sexualization. And as that progresses and gets stronger than eventually, and this is kind of where stage two begins, they want to partner. They want an audience. They want to share that experience with somebody. And so oftentimes that is their their wife or girlfriend that they'll approach about it. Now that we have the Internet and things like Reddit, that's where they go for that next stage. So they want to be seen externally and like validated, they want to share this. And then as stage two kind of progresses, that's where you get into, okay, well, they want to integrate it into their sex life. They want their wives to peg them. I don't know if your audience is aware of pegging or if you want me to elaborate on that at all. You don't need to okay But anyway, it's something that can be pretty painful for women, especially if you've given birth and your pubic symphysis has had to stretch So it can be very you know things things that they want their wives to engage in can be painful It can smell bad. It cannot be It's definitely not like the woman is not getting any physical sensation herself that is pleasurable. So, you know, they're starting to like draw in more from like, oh. OK, I'll look at you in a bra or whatever, and then to participate. The big part. This is what I really came to see as the turning point. And what I would end up warning every woman against is, so the first two stages, he's starting to develop this psychological artifact of a woman, this avatar. He's getting a picture of her, and he's constructing her, and he's starting to project this artifact. The naming of it I think is a pivotal moment. When they name it, that's when there's a real split. and they start to see themselves as two people and they start to divide the things inside themselves into two roles that they can't, it's a splitting. And so I would always tell the ones, you know, the women that would come that were new and like, it was early and he was just kind of like, oh, he just kind of wants to wear my underwear sometimes, and then like, okay, well, like, discourage that. Like, see if you're gonna distract him with some sort of other bright, shiny, sexual, fun experience for both of you. Or, whatever you do, don't let him name it. And if he's named it, ask him to fucking unname it.

Stephanie Winn: When you say name, do you mean naming his female alter ego that he's constructed in his mind?

Wildfire Whispers: Yes. So it's like, you know, John, and it's always like, they always pick, it's really weird. They pick one very plain name, whether it's the first or the last, and one very like va-va-va-voom name, you know? Like, whether it's the first or the last, but you know, it, it would be, I would encourage these women to be like, okay, your husband is John. Don't let him pretend to be Jane. Say, no, I won't call you Jane. I am always with you, even if it's John in a dress. And even that would sometimes help to, I mean, in the end, I think it's just buying time. of wherever you're gonna go with it, if you're gonna break up, if you're gonna stay together, if you're gonna eventually become one of these wives that can't hide the absolute heartbreak in their eyes in these interviews where the man is saying, oh, my wife is so, that there's not, even the ones that are really good at pretending that they're okay with it, You pause those videos, pause them every five seconds, and you'll see there is at least one moment of just deep grief. So. But but the naming really does accelerate to the third stage, which is I you know, they want to start going out. They've trained their wives to respond to them in certain ways in very, you know, you have to be very like, oh, yeah, you look pretty. You look pretty because they want to get through it and just see their husbands again. Right. But when they want to start going out in the world, they want to go in public. Nobody in public is as trained as their wives. Except now, you know, gender ideology in general in this culture is training us the way that they want their wives trained. Like it's now we have to give them the responses. more and more so. But they would go out in public, start doing that, would not get the desired responses. And so then they would start with the physical alterations, the hormones, the smaller end of it, getting their body hair permanently removed and things like that.

Stephanie Winn: Is that stage four?

Wildfire Whispers: That's stage three.

Stephanie Winn: That's still stage three.

Wildfire Whispers: That's the beginning of, I mean, really denying your body. And so after stage three, then it's full transition. Then it's surgeries and all of that. And that's because you can't turn into the opposite sex. You can't do it. And the whole process is vampiric. I call it vampiric for the wives, where they're just drained of their autonomy and their boundaries and their beauty and their life force. It's very, very difficult. And yeah, there's a lot of people out there struggling. I think we've got to give them off-ramps if we can.

Stephanie Winn: I'm really curious about further insights about the stage three, the naming and splitting, and what you think is going on there psychologically.

Wildfire Whispers: I think you would know far more about what it is psychologically, but… when you, when, you know, I mean, I guess Jungian like archetypes and whatnot, you, we all have different like flavors that we can embody and sort of like energies that we can put ourselves into. And sometimes like thinking about an archetype will, will help us in that. Right. And so I think like when they're playing with these things and it's like a, just sort of like a, little fantasy tickle, they do that, but they're easier to let go. And if you look, even historically or spiritually, in every spiritual tradition, the naming of things is very powerful. Um, if you look at rites and rituals, the receiving of a name at certain age, um, even if you look at the biblical lore, uh, God let Adam name all the things, including women. Uh, it's the naming of things is it holds a certain power, um, just kind of in us as human beings. And so when they pick this name, they give themselves, it's a whole other level of permission. And then it's also the true split. And a lot of what I focus on is like relational with this because of the nature of this, it really is what splits the dyad, the mother, not the mother and the baby, but the wife and the husband, the woman and the man, it splits into a triad. And so it puts the wife in constant competition with an invisible mistress that's never further than his mind. Uh, it which just kills them. I mean, it's just the most like grating. Like, how do you even compete with that? Like a lot of women would be like, I would rather it be a physical. I wish it was that, you know, that bitch Rita down the street and I could go ring her doorbell, have a fistfight with her, you know, made the better woman win easier with a with a real woman who gets hungry and gains weight and has things to do and isn't always available like. So it's this alter ego, but it's also a competitor. And it's also that way for the husband, because he's constantly yearning for whoever his alter ego is. And then she's at competition with his wife. So the resentment starts to, if his alter ego, Rita, doesn't get to come out enough, he starts resenting his wife and his children because Rita isn't getting her fair share. And so it's this weird, I mean, it sets these relational dynamics into play at a whole other level. because you've got a third persona. And then eventually, I mean, like I said, it's vampiric towards the women, but it's also very vampiric towards the men because the alter ego wants to consume the host personality. And that's what eventually happens. It's really crazy, but once they name it, it gets way worse.

Stephanie Winn: I really wanna circle back to that vivid language you just said, host personality, and you also said vampiric. But first, I just wanna echo what I hear you saying about this idealized self-image, because it kind of sounds like a trump card. In normal human relationships where there's not this fantasy cross-sex self, people might have some not-so-nice patterns of comparing their significant other to their ex or to that co-worker that they fantasize about running off with or something like that. And these fantasies can remain idealized, detached from reality, untested, but those are still human beings, whereas when a man has crafted this fantasy that is so far detached from reality, it's this person he imagines himself to be as a woman, which does not exist, then that could be used to intimidate his wife by negatively comparing her at any time, right? Well, so-and-so would do this or do that for me. Meanwhile, this is the woman who's doing his laundry and making his dinner. But it just really seems like a manipulation tactic, a power and control tactic. All right, but this is the juicy part. You said vampiric, you said host personality. So tell me about what you're seeing in your mind's eye when you're describing this sort of parasitic entity thing going on.

Wildfire Whispers: I mean, I could go into it spiritually because I think that addictions such as these do open us up to spiritual attachments, but that is metaphysical. We don't have to go down that road, but.

Stephanie Winn: Well, no, no, no, let's let you go down it. And we'll just say that by allowing you to muse, I'm not necessarily endorsing any particular worldview, but I'm really curious what your imagination comes up with here.

Wildfire Whispers: Well, I mean, and it's not even all, it's like if you think of, if we look at where spirituality and physicality meet, right? Everything is frequency, everything comes down to what, like the sine waves. And so if we are in a place where we feel cohesive and we feel like we are in a high frequency state, where we are healthy, where we are in body, where our spirit is good, our body is good, our connection to other people is good, those frequencies are very high. So in terms of the sine wave, those waves are very close together. There's not very much space for anything to kind of Penetrate it, get in there. When we're sort of in our lower, we're disconnected, we're slower moving, we're in addiction, we're in depression and like these sort of, and you can kind of feel it, that kind of phonic, like, slower moving, you imagine like sine waves that are further apart. I'm just trying to like kind of compare this like visually. So if something were to try to get in somewhere, it's harder when the waves are very close together than when they're far apart. And I believe that like when these men, and I can't remember who, there's somebody that speaks on it that I ran into a very long time ago, talked about it and called it a psychological artifact, this idea of this woman. And I like that because before it's named, it's a picture, it's a vessel, it's a sort of lifeless thing. And I think that when we do that and we start to treasure something that is perfect and unalive and unchanging and flawless, it allows us to fracture from ourselves and to let, if there are other frequencies and other entities that feed on the life that we have, that is a welcome mat, in my opinion. I think that this is a welcome mat for things that feed on that to various levels, especially sexual energy that is not directed to a person. That's like a spiritual hummingbird feeder I mean, and it's not the worst thing in the world. It's everybody has those those little solo adventures. It's not a big deal. But when you're sort of. Siphoning that sexual. energy towards this artifact, anything can take it. And that's a lot of energy. I don't know. I think spiritually that's what happens a lot. They're very bogged down. But not everybody has to accept that worldview at all. that is a whole other theory of mine based on my spiritual stuff.

Stephanie Winn: Well, I think there are some good analogies that make a lot of sense. Like if you think about how clever parasites like Toxoplasmosis, Toxoplasma gondii, for those who aren't familiar, it's basically this parasite that can be transmitted through cat urine to rodents and then get into the brains of rodents and alter their behavior to make them less afraid of cats and put themselves in harm's way to make them easier prey for the cats. The same parasite has been found in humans and it affects human behavior as well. There are people like me who are very sensitive to smells. Sometimes you walk into a home, reeks of cat urine and the owner can't smell it. You wonder in those situations. You know, has this person's brain been infected by a parasite? And so the fact that there are pathogens, there are bacteria, microorganisms that can change are neurological patterns and behaviors in different species. If that exists, then is that not an apt metaphor for this idea of the parasitic mind as you know the name of Gad Saad's book? And And some of the ways that you were describing that stuff, wildfire, was really kind of matched up with this thing that I've seen in, you know, in parents very detailed descriptions of their kids who they're coming to me for consultation about. I see that almost like it almost feels like some kind of demonic possession where it's not, maybe the person thinks they have agency and that's part of it, that's how it has to work, right? If the rodent was aware, not that rodents have much awareness of anything in general, I have a couple gerbils, they're really dumb. But you know, I mean, to use an imperfect analogy, if the rodents had any awareness their brains were infected, it might cause them to be a little bit more circumspect in their behavior. But it's that we don't, you know, we have these ego defenses, and we don't want to see ourselves as stupid or weak. We want to feel like we're in control, we have agency. And so Are we though? Or are there sometimes things that kind of grab a hold of us and in fact weaponize our own tendency to want to think that we're independent and use it against us because it makes us feel like this is our own idea? Part of my whole framework for how I'm addressing this gender crisis, including some of the thinking that goes into my course, my other tools, is that you know, we live in an age of the most advanced technology we've ever had, not the most advanced technology we will ever have, but the most advanced technology we ever have in many ways, up until now. And that includes psychological technology, our understanding of psychology has advanced, and our technology for transmitting psychologically effective messaging has advanced. So, you know, I think we all ought to be a little circumspect about our degree of susceptibility to influence.

Wildfire Whispers: Yes. Yes. And whether you know that's I love the way you just put and it kind of made me think like what they're doing in creating an alter ego and then feeding it with so much sexual energy and mental and just like all of, oh, I can't relax without this thing. I can't be myself without this thing. What it's doing is it's self-abdication. It's giving up Who you fully are because they can't be fully themselves Especially men who struggle with AGP and we're not talking about like a really small amount of people. It's three to four percent of men That's a lot of men that are at least like playing with underwear somewhere. I you know, like it's not I I think that when they get to that level of like, oh, this is so important to me that I'm going to split myself in half, that I'm going to shave my beard. I'm going to not participate in the things that I love or see the people that I care about. Again, Shannon Thrace's It's like a 15-minute TED talk about this where she reads from her book. She puts it just beautifully. You watch them devolve. They don't get better. They get worse. They get less productive. They get less happy, less healthy, more… Envious that's another thing. That's another thing that really changes for for the women and wives it's like part of being a woman and being in a relationship and like part of being in love with a man and and having that is is as women like we We inspire where our beauty inspires that that Love from him and that like oh my gosh, the goddess is real and she's in you isn't she like that kind of feeling And there's a very, it's subtle, but it's very different. When that shifts, when admiration shifts to envy, it is, you know, like cutting off the emotional and intimate and erotic nourishment to the woman because, oh, she's bought a new outfit and she's wearing it and she feels beautiful. And he compliments the outfit, but does he like her in the outfit or does he want to have it?

Stephanie Winn: Or does he wish he looked like that in it?

Wildfire Whispers: Does he wish he looked like that? And the abdication of self that comes with naming it, it's kind of a, oh, It's like my grandma would say you can't ride two horses with one ass.

Stephanie Winn: Yeah. She sounds like a hoot.

Wildfire Whispers: Yeah, she was Texas. Can't ride two horses with one ass, honey. You got you got to pick.

Stephanie Winn: On that note, just just an example of how far removed from reality this toxic envy can become. I knew a family that moved a family with. A trans identified son that moved to a war torn country with beautiful women, but war and real problems. And they were hoping that the beauty of the women would inspire the healthier aspects of his attraction. But instead, one of the things he said was that he was envious of these women for the fact that they could wear these beautiful dresses. And I remember hearing that and thinking, there's nothing to envy about these women in this war-torn country, but there's something to love and admire about them, and this person is robbing himself of that experience, and yeah. When a person has only envy and no capacity for admiration or gratitude, that's a really sad state of affairs.

Wildfire Whispers: So we have so little time left, but I… It's the… Hang on. This, your last guess about the… Scrimetti case and then I watched the and and what you just said the reduction of of males and females to being cosmetic to being two-dimensional instead of three-dimensional and and also what you're talking about with the gratitude and the envy and the the shallowness of this reduction on all levels. I think it's harming men, it's harming women, and oh my gosh, yes. Sorry, I don't know if that even made sense.

Stephanie Winn: Well, with the limited time that we have left, I want your insights on recovery because one thing you said to me before we started recording is that, you know, there were always three to 4% of men. I don't know about always, but you know, that number goes back a ways. that 3-4% of men had this maybe secret interest in cross-dressing but now with this frankly agenda to condition people into this with things like sissy hypnoporn, those numbers are going up and you said you have reasons to believe that there are a lot of men who want out of this or might want out of this one day or who might reach a crisis in a relationship with a woman where she does give that ultimatum. It's me or it's your imaginary friend who lives in your head. So you actually believe recovery is possible. That apparently is not something that there's necessarily a consensus around. Apparently there are people in the community, the same activist community as you who would say that recovery is not possible, but for those for whom it is, what might that recovery process look like and what kind of support, you know, if you're seeing that there's a need to put more supports in place because there are going to be more and more men who want help getting out of this, what do you think that ought to look like?

Wildfire Whispers: Well, if you go to threads on Reddit and you look like look up a sissy hypno recovery, sissy recovery, AGP recovery, you will find tens of thousands of men. that are trying to break this. And especially now when, unfortunately, people in your profession are so hindered from being able to offer the full range of treatment and desistance tools. I think that desistance tools for adults will probably look a lot like the ones that like ROGD. But for this specific one, especially because the whole process is very ritualized. The undoing of it, there needs to be ritual in that. I'd say that the most important thing is that there needs to be a support group that is not the wife. That's part of the pressure of this whole thing in general is that the husband is only relying on the wife the whole time. The wife is not allowed to get any support of her own. If you're listening to this and you're one of these wives, you have every right to get your own support. You can tell whoever you want. you're not in his closet, just so you know. But that's why I really think containers, I mean, the people that have come out of it that I've known use either the 12-step essay, Sexual Addicts Anonymous, container because it's very specific and ritualized. And then there's also the Al-Anon support for the wives and family members of addicts. It's easily translatable. Until, you know, I guess this started not being seen as any sort of sexual addiction. The paraphilias, except for, with the exception of pedophilia, they're considered to be in remission after five years of abstaining. So I think that the narrative that this cannot be quit is is really harming. I mean, the the wives and families who are trying to approach this. I think that more people need to approach it as yes, it's difficult. It's very difficult. And once it's part of somebody's erotic blueprint. It's not like it's never going to. Not sound sexy to them, but the acting out on it. they can control if they want to, if they want to, you know, rebuild their lives, I've seen it happen. And I just, I think that as we get, as we start to see everything kind of reverse in gender ideology, and thank God we're starting to see the pushback and the slowdown, we have to encourage families, individuals, the mental health field, everybody, to start developing off-ramps for people in whatever situations and whatever stages of this that there are. And for so long, like I said, if you're a wife, you'd look up support for this. All you'd get is how to support the man. You would talk about quitting and they'd say, it's not going to happen. Don't even try. And I just I think that that's. Bullshit, and I don't think that we shouldn't if something is hurting a family, if a person has the capacity for for healing, which not all addicts do. But if they want to put their family first, if they want to maintain their their body, their health, their finances, their connections, which are the most, like everything that you outline is like, okay, these are the real causes of suicide is being lonely, isolated, being financially under strain, being in chronic pain. And this treatment is what, Those are very common side effects of this treatment. So if people want to avoid that, I think, I don't know, my opinion is that we should develop programs maybe specifically for AGPs that haven't gone too far and that want to come back from that ledge. And even if the marriage is lost or whatever, their health could be saved, or their body, their mind, this could, I don't know. I tend to not give up on humanity. I understand, looking at what's happening right now, why a lot of people would.

Stephanie Winn: Well, I appreciate the optimism in that. And I hope there are some people listening who might feel inspired to contribute in some way, whether it's, you know, facilitating a group similar to the group that you did, or if it's a therapist who wants to venture out into offering help, whether that's help to these men or to their wives or girlfriends. I think you've helped anyone interested in helping other people with this issue. So thank you for sharing your perspective. Tell listeners where they can find you.

Wildfire Whispers: Oh, you can find me on Twitter. That's where, that's where you can find me. TwitterX? Yeah, through XX. That's right. I dead named. Oh no.

Stephanie Winn: You misgendered X.

Wildfire Whispers: I am I'm starting. I don't know. I was starting a YouTube channel. I have a YouTube channel under wildfire whispers. It's You know, I I haven't built it out much yet. I do most of my stuff on X for now I might write a book about something someday, but Yeah, don't follow me say what's up Well, thank you so much for joining me today.

Stephanie Winn: It's been a pleasure

Wildfire Whispers: Oh, it's so so much fun to be here. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Y'all like and subscribe to this woman. Okay. Thank you, darling.

Stephanie Winn: Thank you for listening to you must be some kind of therapist. If you enjoyed this episode, kindly take a moment to rate, review, share or comment on it using your platform of choice. And of course, please remember, podcasts are not therapy, and I'm not your therapist. Special thanks to Joey Pecoraro for this awesome theme song, Half Awake, and to Pods by Nick for production. For help navigating the impact of the gender craze on your family, be sure to check out my program for parents, ROGD Repair. Any resource you heard mentioned on this show, plus how to get in touch with me, can all be found in the notes and links below. Rain or shine, I hope you will step outside to breathe the air today. In the words of Max Ehrman, with all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world.