You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist

Swell AI Transcript: 150. Levi Hayes.mp3
Levi Hayes:
Something else there that isn't discussed enough, I think, is the trauma that occurs because of transition, besides the trauma that got you there in the first place. All those experiences that we go through living a transitioned life, it doesn't matter what the transition life may consist of, it causes trauma leading that life. It's in the way people treat you. It's in everything that you have to go through to keep up the illusion. It's in everything that you have to go through if you can't keep up the illusion. The trauma of feeling like you forced everybody to go along with this illusion in the pronoun game and the name game and all of those things. That's traumatic. That's horrible. It's a horrible regret to have. You must be some kind of therapist.

Stephanie Winn: Today, I'm speaking with Levi Hayes. He is an artist and writer with a Substack blog called Living for Levi, where he shares about his experiences detransitioning. Levi, thank you for joining me today.

Levi Hayes: Hey, thanks for having me, Stephanie.

Stephanie Winn: So I wanna sort of queue up our listeners to how we got here today. I was really touched, I don't know, a couple of weeks or months ago to hear from you over email. A couple of years ago, I put forth this offering on my blog saying how detransitioners can use basically the mental health complaint system to file a complaint about a therapist who affirmed them. And my reason for doing this was I thought, you know, not everyone is going to be up for a lawsuit. In fact, it is a minority of people who've been through medical and psychiatric trauma that are going to have the courage, the resources, and everything it takes to fight those battles and we really need the people who are fighting those battles to go ahead and go through with that if they can, but it's really not right for everyone. However, the state licensing boards are there to protect consumers of mental health services and you don't have to have a lawyer, you don't have to put your name and face out there, there's nothing you have to do to just file a complaint with one of these offices and say, hey, I think this therapist did me wrong. And it doesn't necessarily mean that therapist is going to lose their license and it shouldn't, right? Because if every complaint led to a therapist losing their license, I would have lost mine for anyone who's following my story because of the trans rights activists who filed a complaint. But You know, if there's enough complaints or the complaints reach a certain level of seriousness, it does potentially result in action. And I just felt like these boards should hear the other side of the story. They should hear from people who are being harmed by affirmation. Anyway, it's only been a few people over the past couple years who have let me know that they did anything with that blog and you were one of them and you reached out to me with a very heartfelt message and you had this story that you shared on your blog. I also realized there's an update that you've since shared on your blog as well. So that's how we got here for our listeners is that you took those recommendations that I made, and you followed through with them yourself. So that's what we're here to talk about today. We're here to talk about your experience as someone who's been through the transition and detransition trauma, letting the board of your state know that, and sharing whatever it is that you want to share about that.

Levi Hayes: Sure. Well, the state that I did live in, which was Florida, and wow, I originally was looking for resources. I I had reached a point in, I think, Stella O'Malley at Genspec describes that as an arc of detransition, and there's those phases you go through. And part of that was, and I hovered back and forth between the regret and the anger, And what do I do with that? Is there anything that I can do with that? And I was trying to figure all of this out and there's no resources. And that's how I came across your your blog. I hadn't heard of you before prior to that, you know. And I came across that resource and. I took that and it was a process. It took me a good week to go through, through writing that letter. And I sat on it and thought that maybe it would be something that I would just use as a therapeutic tool, you know, for myself. Because I never considered really I don't know, when you have that regret, you have shame that comes with that, right? And the shame that comes with that is like people just assume, you know, that, well, you chose that, you know? And so, like I said, I thought maybe I would just use that as a therapeutic tool. But the more I vacillated between the anger and the regret and the sadness, all of that part of figuring out detransition, because this is really early on, still kind of early on. I'm in month eight now, still pretty early. But this was raw still. within my first couple months, I really posed, well, what other options do I have? And then that's how I came across Transition Justice and had the discussion. after emailing them and reaching out and had the discussion around everything that transpired with my therapist and that professional's neglect. about what my options were, and I actually, you know, I am past the statute of limitations. And so then that's when I decided, between the vacillating, between the anger and everything, to use that tool that you provided. Because that's what it is. And it's a very powerful tool. Or at least I would I would. And that's what hurts the most. I would hope that it would be a powerful tool. You know, I. Navigated the states. I'm sorry, Jankety system and. filed a complaint with the health department because that's who you filed the complaint with in the state of Florida. And the prompt letter, I got it back pretty quick, from the state was that they were not going to honor any type of investigation because I was, in fact, passed the statute of limitations because I have been transitioned for eight years, though the dichotomy of that, to think that on average, I've heard the different numbers, but on average it's between five and seven to eight years before somebody realizes somebody realizes that perhaps they have been dissociating this whole time or any other whatever, that they've decided that transition was not right for them, right? And considering the state of Florida, I believe it's two, four years, something like that, the statute of limitations in the state of Florida decided to tell me that they're not going to honor this because of I am past that statute of limitations and that they do not have to give me any further information. It's ignorant. It's ignorant and magical thinking to believe that this therapist and what happened to me stopped at me and hasn't happened since in the last eight years. So yeah.

Stephanie Winn: Can I respond to that? Sure. So I hear the vulnerability of taking a risk to go through this thing that felt very personal. You described it like a therapeutic exercise to really reflect on some of the most painful stuff in your life. And then to put it out there, like hoping that this is going to make a difference. And when you first contacted me to say that you had in fact, filed this complaint. I think it was before you had heard back from the Florida board. And I want to acknowledge too that in your blog post about the process of deciding to write that complaint, you were initially like, who is this freaking therapist or what does she think she's, you know, like you had that reaction that you were very honest about. So I was actually surprised to hear it only took you a week from finding that to deciding to do something about it. But what I what I do want to say, because I hear the pain of having heard this discouraging response from the board, I want to shed a little bit of light on why I think that is and also give you some words of encouragement. I think maybe part of the reason that they said you were beyond the statute of limitations has to do with requirements as to how long therapists keep our clinical documentation for. Like we're required to keep it for seven years in my state. And so I wonder if there's part of it like, well, since the therapist isn't required to have those records anymore, they can't defend themselves. But I also want to say that even though they said we're not going to open an investigation against this person, I still think you made a difference. I think that they heard you because there are discussions happening at board meetings and between boards and lawyers about the direction the field is heading. I've got inside word that there are certain conversations happening behind certain closed doors. that I won't say too much about, but where even in some of the most so-called progressive states, the lawyers and the boards know that it's going to be, pardon my language, but a shit show. They know that there is this tidal wave coming. And we have a new administration passing executive orders expanding statute supplementations.

Levi Hayes: We do.

Stephanie Winn: because people are recognizing what you're saying. That is not enough time for a lot of people who fall under the umbrella of detransition. But if the harm that was done is potentially lifelong, then the statute of limitations shouldn't be so narrow. So I do hope you know that the board registered that you are one of the people. And maybe it takes a thousand such messages before the tide turns to the point where they enact some legislative change with regard to how therapy is governed in that state, but I still think it makes a difference. And thank you for putting yourself through that really vulnerable process, even though it didn't give you the results you were hoping for.

Levi Hayes: Thank you. Yes, I agree. Thank you. And I hope from it, more people see this and decide to share their story and maybe share it sooner. Right? Right? Because through sharing, that's how we… It's not the forceful ways that we've seen, that we all have been witness to. It's through sharing and being vulnerable and all of those evolved ways, right? That's how we can make changes that impact the next generation. And that's a big chunk of why I'm here, because I was a little boy. And that's a big chunk of what led to my transition.

Stephanie Winn: Things that happened when you were a little boy. Do you want to tell us about that?

Levi Hayes: Sure. Um, you know, my background, I grew up in the rural Midwest, uh, Kansas, and I grew up in the eighties in a time that was vastly different from now. You know, we had the AIDS crisis, and it was very, mindsets were very different. And I was an effeminate boy. I am an artist. I have always been very creative, very expressive, and I did not have any words for gay or anything like that. But that's how I was kind of labeled because I was effeminate and I was expressive. I was the little boy that liked pink. I was the little boy, all of these things. So I didn't fit the mold. And therefore, I was very outcast, and that stuck with me. I was othered, right? And that othering as a child eventually caught up with me With my family, you know, I have a father that never dealt with his own, his own, um, PTSD from Vietnam. And then he has a child that is homosexual and obviously effeminate. Well, we're going to say homosexual. And so he gets othered by his father. Now, that's how my dad was with me. And so I never had that when I was growing up, I never had that connection, that validation from my father. And that just carried on throughout my life. that carried on through my life throughout high school and with my peers. It was horrible growing up. It just was just absolutely horrible, whether it was in the classrooms, whether it was in the hallways, whether it was I was in this small Bible Belt area of the Midwest, I was the town F word. That became my internalized homophobia, and that followed me my whole life. And most gay men have internalized homophobia. They just do, growing up in a heteronormative world. And I had it bad, and I vacillated between being overwhelmed by my shame because I also, and I, I apologize. Let me pause there and apologize because of everything that happened in my childhood, I developed my dissociation, which I've learned about later in life. When I would just not be here, you know, I would be separate from myself. And I want to apologize because I skip around some, and I lose my place. And I feel like I sound like an ass. sometimes, and that's part of another reason why I did cancel on you before, because I feel like I don't have it together.

Stephanie Winn: That's okay. We'll edit this part out. Can I tell you something?

Levi Hayes: I don't think it needs to be edited. I think it could be a learning experience that this is what happens when people are othered and trauma is not dealt with for years because I'm 48 years old and I'm just now dealing with my trauma. So yeah.

Stephanie Winn: Well, let me respond to that on two levels. Sure. I've been doing podcasts a while and everyone loses their train of thought, you know, trauma and dissociation or not. And I've heard from so many people who've been on my show and they message me afterward thinking they sounded ridiculous. And they're usually pretty happy with the final edits because we make them sound good. And and because we're all our own worst critic. So there's that. But then on top of that, you're new to podcasting and you're talking about your worst trauma and you have this, like you're saying, tendency towards dissociation and feeling scattered. So even if you sound coherent.

Levi Hayes: And forgetful.

Stephanie Winn: Even if you sound coherent to someone else, you might not personally feel satisfied with your ability to hold on to your thought and where you had in mind that you were going and how you wanted to connect it all. So I'm here to help, right? If you want me to help you like bookmark things to make sure we circle back to them.

Levi Hayes: Sure. I just, cause, um, I remember that actually the worst part of my trauma is, is the very beginning of it all is, is that I was groomed by a family, family member as a child. Um, and you know, probably at four or five, um, Yeah, and so you compound that with years of the bullying and the mental and physical abuse from my father because his unacceptance for me, and there's a fine line of punishment and abuse. It turned into a life of my 20s, and then I moved to Europe. I lived in Europe. spent my 20s and then through my 30s just coping with alcohol and drugs and promiscuity, man to man to man to man, just looking for that validation, that validation.

Stephanie Winn: Looking for that support you didn't get from your father.

Levi Hayes: My father, and yeah, yeah, that's all it is. is running from shame and escaping that and seeking validation, and running away from Yeah. And so later, I don't know how far you want me to, but I mean, it all leads to my transition. It really does. Because later in life, I was living in Florida and had a successful business. And I had a very traumatic experience where my partner was diagnosed with HIV. And I wasn't. And that brought everything, all of my internalized homophobia, everything here to the surface. And because throughout life, even through all of my promiscuity and all of that, I always had fear of that because of the way I was raised and things like my mother would say to me, if you choose to be gay, you will die alone and with AIDS. Things like that. She would tell me as a kid and, um, that just, And during that time, you know, he was overwhelmed by this naturally, right? And for his own self, I don't hold that against him, he left me, but that I isolated myself and I had had it. I had just had it with life. And I started to see everything in my life that had went wrong to be associated with my homosexuality. And this was during the time when transitioned lives were just at the epitome of the top, and just in all the media, and increasingly more in gay spaces. And I remembered times when I would cross-dress as a little boy because I did, I experimented with my identity, and girls got to wear cool things. But I grew out of that. Little boys do. And I remembered times when I experimented with drag in the 90s. RuPaul made it cool. He made it cool because that was, he was a gay man and successful. And I wanted to be like that because I could escape, escape where I lived, this horrible place, you know? And so this ideology And seeped in, and I researched it, and it just seemed right. And the more and more I dwelt in this, I convinced myself that it fit. It just fit. You know? I must be transgender. And I slowly started self-IDing. You know, I researched and listened to the pseudoscience and all of that.

Stephanie Winn: Sounds like a perfect storm where you had all this.

Levi Hayes: I was thinking about that this morning when I was thinking about what am I gonna talk to Stephanie about? The perfect storm. Thank you.

Stephanie Winn: Well, sounds like you've been in this pattern of escapism for years. And we can talk about it through the lens of trauma. We can also just acknowledge that whatever diagnosis you may have had, you were in a pretty depressive state. You were seeking that next high, whether it was from a man or a substance or something, just anything to not feel the pain is what it sounds like. And then your whole life you had this worst fear which was based in reality because you did grow up during the AIDS crisis and gay men are at high risk of HIV but also that had this component of shame and rejection from your mother and father weighted along with the message right that if you're If you choose to be gay, she said, you will die alone of AIDS. So your worst fear was a real fear, exaggerated and distorted through the lens of shame and pain, and then it comes so close to home. And it was like this narrow mist because it didn't infect you, but it must have… I wonder almost if there was like survivor's guilt, maybe. Yeah.

Levi Hayes: Oh, definitely.

Stephanie Winn: So it was like all the forms of escapism you'd tried up until that point weren't enough. You needed like a next level form of escapism. And you see this one that's being highly rewarded by the culture. I take it this is like early 2010s.

Levi Hayes: This was 2016. Okay.

Stephanie Winn: So like peak.

Levi Hayes: Cake and dinner.

Stephanie Winn: Yeah. Yeah.

Levi Hayes: Right there.

Stephanie Winn: So it must have felt like a solution.

Levi Hayes: It was a solution. It was a solution. In hindsight, yes. It didn't feel like it right then, of course. Not right then, not when I was self-IDing and sought the therapist that I needed. And I sought that therapist. explain to her, explain to her all my things as a child and how I just didn't fit with the, you know, the gay community as far as being gay. That's a that's not because, you know, when I was bullied as a as a kid, some of my peers who were homosexual bullied me. They did. They just did. I had that lateral oppression. because they were closeted themselves. And so I just saw that as not fitting because I didn't understand internalized homophobia and all of those things. Anyways, and I explained that to her and and how this just this fit my person fit who I was and that I'm really a man. or a woman born in a man's body. That's how that works, I guess. She never once… She asked about my family and about our relationship. And yes, we did explore that, but it was only glossed over. We never talked about trauma or internalized homophobia. Those are things that I've found on my own since. And, um, since transition never did anything for me. Um, but she, I saw her for an hour and she wanted me to return in about a week. and we would see how I would feel upon returning, and then review it from there. And so I did, and I was still fine with where I stood, or I was still adamant about wanting to transition. And she affirmed me. She affirmed me and gave me a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

Stephanie Winn: Had you ever seen a therapist before this?

Levi Hayes: No, ma'am. And I was dressed just as I am today, minus the beard. So.

Stephanie Winn: So you hit this really low point, all this stuff that you had been running from for years. And in the low point, you reach kind of a premature conclusion about what it all means and what you're supposed to do next.

Levi Hayes: Dumb do it, yeah.

Stephanie Winn: So you go seeking therapy with this in mind. But hindsight being what it is, seems like you see now that that was a cry for help that should have been recognized and treated differently. Looking back, what do you know now about what you truly needed in therapy?

Levi Hayes: I needed what I needed. What I needed was for someone to talk to me about trauma, to ask me if I knew what it was, to ask me if I understood it, because to me, and I know I'm not the only one, to me, trauma is something people that go to war get, you know? Dissociation. I never knew what that was at all. I just thought I was different. And I've never shared that with anybody. I only knew dissociation by watching a YouTube video and hearing another therapist talk about trauma and explain how It can feel like an out-of-body experience. And I'm like, whoa, I used to see the classroom from outside of my body when the school jock would ask me if I wanted to suck his cock in front of the whole class to embarrass me. So I didn't know these things, so that's what I needed a therapist. I needed a therapist to run some diagnostic tests, some kind of testing, because there is testing for that. I've, in hindsight, knowing these things, because finally understanding these things and researching it for myself, my current therapist, I've asked him to do that. So I've done these things, you know, so I know they exist. That's what I needed that therapist to do. And that's what I need therapists to do for other people, is take responsibility.

Stephanie Winn: You do have a good therapist now.

Levi Hayes: I do.

Stephanie Winn: I'm glad to hear that.

Levi Hayes: I do.

Stephanie Winn: It must have been hard to take a risk on trusting any therapist after the way your first therapist treated you.

Levi Hayes: And it took a lot of work finding one. It took a lot of rejection. It took a lot of, um, like I described on him in my blog, being feeling, being the unicorn, because it's like, they look at you like, the therapists that have this affirmation only model in mind, like, why would you want to do that type vibe is what I get. And so it's taken or refer you to somebody else or just flat out rejection.

Stephanie Winn: So, sorry, is this what you experienced when you were looking for help from a therapist as a detransitioner?

Levi Hayes: Yes. Reaching out, trying to find somebody to help me.

Stephanie Winn: So you got a lot of rejection.

Levi Hayes: Yes.

Stephanie Winn: Hmm. any particular message?

Levi Hayes: I'm not qualified or I don't deal with that or, you know, those types of things.

Stephanie Winn: Did anybody point you to the beyond trans?

Levi Hayes: Oh, I found beyond trans myself. Yeah. Yeah. And then I started going and those were some of my first experiences were group therapy with Stella. Yeah.

Stephanie Winn: Okay.

Levi Hayes: So you finally found- Like religion. Yeah.

Stephanie Winn: Something that's actually designed to help people with this experience.

Levi Hayes: Yeah. So I have a regular therapist now and then I go to group therapy. Okay. Yeah, that's where I'm at.

Stephanie Winn: Many of you listening to this show are concerned about an adolescent or young adult you care about who's caught up in the gender insanity and therefore at risk of medical self-destruction. I developed ROGD Repair as a resource for parents just like you. It's a self-paced online course and community that will teach you the psychology concept and communication tools the families I've consulted with have found most helpful in understanding and getting through to their children, even when they're adults. Visit ROGDRepair.com to learn more about the program and use promo code SUMTHERAPIST2025 at checkout to take 50% off your first month. That's ROGDRepair.com. So you went to this therapist, this gender-affirming therapist, and in retrospect you can see that you've never had therapy before. You needed someone to be genuinely curious and caring about what all you'd been through up until then and how you're brain and body were responding to those experiences, but you went to a gender-affirming therapist, and there is this sort of collusion between your expectations at the time for therapy just being this sort of thing that ushers you down along a certain path, and that therapist's expectations of what it was for her? Was it her?

Levi Hayes: her.

Stephanie Winn: What it was for her to be a good therapist to someone with so-called gender dysphoria. So what happened next? You got this letter.

Levi Hayes: Yeah, I got that letter. And when I got that letter, I went to a, a clinician, right. And a doctor and had my checkup and they, um, referred me to an endocrinologist and so I had a main doctor that referred me to an endocrinologist to get me started on my blockers and my estrogen and I was started on progesterone as well to start my transition journey. All at once? Yes.

Stephanie Winn: All three of those. So what were the three drugs? Progesterone, estrogen, and? Spironolactone. Spironolactone. And then later you were also on biclutamide?

Levi Hayes: I was on biclutamide a few years later, actually. A few years later. So that would have been after I had moved from Florida, and that was probably 2018.

Stephanie Winn: Why was that one added to the mix? Just curious.

Levi Hayes: Oh, because Biclutamide was, I was having side effects and it was making me very, very dizzy. Constantly, I was constantly dizzy on- The other meds? Excuse me, on Spironolactone, excuse me. And I got mixed up on the two. But yeah, so that's why we switched.

Stephanie Winn: Okay, so yeah, and that's sort of jumping around your story a little bit, but I, because the work I do is talking to parents of trans-identified youth all day, I end up hearing a lot of stories like, for example, young men who were on those same drugs having POTS, which is the same illness that I got from COVID. And POTS causes dizziness, lightheadedness, and low blood pressure, and tachycardia, and things like that. And when the parents try to express their concerns to the son, it was, oh, well, you know, I had POTS before I started these drugs, so these drugs couldn't possibly be doing anything to make it worse. So when I hear that you were dizzy on the spironolactone, okay. Well, just maybe take us back to the beginning. So you start on all three of these drugs at once.

Levi Hayes: Yes.

Stephanie Winn: It doesn't ever seem like there's any rhyme or reason. I mean, we know that this is quack medicine anyway. Like I've heard in some cases, they start the testosterone blockers for a few months before they start estrogen. They don't always use the progesterone. But anyway, they put you on all three of these drugs. And what happened at first?

Levi Hayes: I'm sorry?

Stephanie Winn: What happened at first?

Levi Hayes: What happened at first? Oh, as a result of the drugs? Oh, mood change. Drastic mood change. Just, I was an emotional wreck. Constantly, of course. And then it was probably by my next checkup, and like you said, there's no rhyme or reason, he took me off of the progesterone. And so I just remained on the estradiol and the spironolactone from there on out. And then, so from there on out, as far as side effects, it was just mainly just my gradual, well, there was the immediate shift in my mood. But then the shift of my body as well over time that happened. But the more immediate fast effects, the fast track that happened was the surgeries for me. And that started within, well, I started hormones in September. And I started that on my birthday. And so, September, October, November, I had my first surgery on my face. And just in between, I constantly had fillers and Botox and all that kind of stuff on top of it. But yeah, I had my first surgery on my face. that was done. And then by May, which would have been the next year, like what, five months, seven months later, I had breast augmentation. So that's where that is as far as surgeries. Yeah.

Stephanie Winn: Can you tell us what was going through your head at the time about these surgeries?

Levi Hayes: Well, the pseudoscience had me, you know, that this was going to, this was going to make me a real woman, right? This is going to align me with where I need to be because in hindsight, with my knowledge now, it was just because I was trying to escape my homosexuality. right? I was just trying to become straight. That way, society could tolerate me, my parents could tolerate me, and I might get their validation, you know? And then things in my life, I wouldn't be having these horrible things happen. Men Men would love me, right, and accept me, because I've never had a man's acceptance. I've been emasculated my whole life. I never had, I never had male bonding growing up. So, you know, or close friends like that, you know. So this would change my life. I would align and be where I needed to be, and I would be heterosexual. And the sad thing about that, not to get way off topic, but the really sad thing about that, Stephanie, is I've heard my story mirrored so many times in so many other men. And that's another reason why I'm sitting here with you today. It's just to speak that. Because I heard another man say that once, and that's how I woke up. And by speaking that, perhaps another one will hear it because there are many others.

Stephanie Winn: It was all very focused on what you wanted to control and change about how other people saw you and treated you. Sort of an indirect route to trying to achieve an internal change in how you felt because you imagine you would feel better if you were treated differently by others and you'd be treated differently by others if you made these changes to your appearance. Prior to that point, had you ever had any body dysmorphia about your face? Or was it all just this, I have to look more feminine?

Levi Hayes: I believe so.

Stephanie Winn: Okay.

Levi Hayes: I believe so. Yes, I've never, I always thought that I was unattractive. And that came with that history. That history, yes.

Stephanie Winn: And do you remember the aftermath of the surgeries, like what it was like adjusting to looking like a different person?

Levi Hayes: Well, it wasn't, at first it wasn't the most pretty thing, of course.

Stephanie Winn: Cause you got scars and bandages and.

Levi Hayes: Very swollen. So very, very swollen. And I didn't have any horrible, like, I don't have any of those stories, any bad side effects or the doctors did something wrong, anything like that. I don't have any of that. So I can't say that the the appearance was bad, it just shouldn't have happened. And I can't say that my transitioned experience was… I don't know if I can say it was bad. I just don't know if I can. That's mixed. As far as society and how I was treated, I wasn't, I don't know, that's still mixed. I thought I would say it was not a bad experience, but it

Stephanie Winn: Well, it didn't give you what you thought it would because this was all an attempt to cope with feelings of rejection and shame and abandonment. So when it comes to the drugs, you were on drugs, some cocktail of so-called gender-affirming hormones and hormone suppressors for a total of eight years, if I understand it correctly. And going back a few minutes in the conversation, he said your initial response was that they were quite bad for your mood, that they made you more emotionally unstable, which is not an uncommon reaction. And I often find myself saying to other women, you know, like as women, we know how destabilizing our own hormones can be for us. What to speak of, you know, men whose bodies weren't designed for these female hormones, what a rollercoaster ride it must be for them. So a lot of people would hear that and go, well, wait a minute. If Levi felt so terrible on these drugs, why did he stay on them for so long? And I will add to that from my conversations with parents, there's often kids will sometimes say something like, well, if I start these drugs and they make me feel bad, I'll just stop them. But clearly it's not always that simple.

Levi Hayes: It's not. Maybe I should like backtrack. Yeah, because yeah, they made me emotional and they also made me like. A teenager. Like I felt like. A teenager all over again, very impulsive. Like. And combined with trauma that's not been treated. What wow, what a cocktail, what a cocktail that was. So for me, what happened with my cocktail of untreated trauma and drugs was I had a successful business a mile from the beach and my therapist, who really didn't help me think any of this through rationally, My clientele over time just started disappearing. I lost my business. And, um, well, like I said, I didn't have the, I have a mixed experience with the whole transition when I was on these drugs and my impulsiveness. And I got that. air quote, straight whatever, because I got that straight man, and I had that, and I lived this life, whatever, but he turned out to be my abuser, and I was very isolated, and I lived a life where he drained me, um for my money and he abused me and he broke my arm and I couldn't work and I went through a lot of this stuff on my own and I it's just all this domino effect that I went through so my transitioned life is mixed and that's where my impulsiveness got me and I went through my money like that and I led an alright life to bankruptcy. So that's part of my trans regret.

Stephanie Winn: So for so much of your life one of your sort of fantasy scenarios that you would escape into is this idea if if I were a woman then I could be straight and I could be with a straight man and then my life would be acceptable to others and I would get this love and support and validation that's been missing from my life.

Levi Hayes: Yeah.

Stephanie Winn: And so you You got to dip your toes in the reality of that fantasy, so to speak. You went through these so-called gender-affirming hormones and surgeries, and you did look more like a woman and live your life as a trans woman. And in that role, you did in fact attract interest from a so-called straight man, but it was not all it was cracked up to be. And it sounds like you found someone who knew how to exploit your vulnerabilities.

Levi Hayes: Yes, he turned out to be a heroin addict in the end. I didn't know the whole time. And that's why that's how I came to leave Florida, actually.

Stephanie Winn: So it was just a mess. You said you had the successful business.

Levi Hayes: Yeah, it was a salon.

Stephanie Winn: So you were a hairstylist?

Levi Hayes: Yeah, I've been in the beauty industry for over 20 years. So that was my first, yeah, my bread and butter.

Stephanie Winn: You know, those of us who've been paying attention to the trans cult, we've heard of this idea of second puberty.

Levi Hayes: Yeah.

Stephanie Winn: So at the time when you were feeling so moody and impulsive and irrational, were you kind of justifying it to yourself? Like, oh, this is second puberty. It's all part of the process.

Levi Hayes: Yes. Yep.

Stephanie Winn: Did it feel like there was some like pot of gold at the end of the rainbow that you were trying to get to where like everything would be great after all of this?

Levi Hayes: Yeah. I mean, we're going to have bottom surgery and it's going to work out. Isn't that the ultimate goal? I mean, that's the programming. That's what I was privy to anyways. So, and that was the plan. And, um, I've had, I've had consults for that. I had consults for that, um, later when I, uh, I moved and ended up in, I relocated to the Memphis area. My, uh, my brother lives there. Um, I had lived there previously to get away. and start my life over. But I had had that and, you know, well, the first step was going to be an orchiectomy because that would allow me to come off of these blockers. And then I wouldn't have to worry about biclutamide that I went on or the spironolactone because the dizziness or any of that. And I wouldn't have that would just be one less pill I would have to take. And then then I would be prepped for for the eventual bottom surgery. And then I would be a complete woman. That's what I had in my head, along with other pseudosciences that I had heard about and believed in, you know, like womb transplants, uterus, uterus transplants, stuff like that, that. I have heard about and believed at the time and. That's the ideology.

Stephanie Winn: So you spent eight years on the drugs, but you never went through with the orchiectomy or vaginoplasty.

Levi Hayes: I did not. I did not. Because I hear other people's stories, and I started hearing other stories. And so I just, and COVID happened and I went back to school. And, um, I had started my, I actually had started my degree when I lived in Germany and it was in psychology. Um, didn't finish it. That's when my drinking started. Uh, so I went back to school and, uh, I had still planned on doing this, but I started hearing some of this. And so I got caught up in school and COVID and the world's changing. And it was later. that I saw the interview and story that just woke me up. And I sat on that for a whole year, and there was no way in hell I was going to have bottom surgery and eventually decided to detransition.

Stephanie Winn: There must've been a huge cognitive dissonance between this idea that every next step you take in your journey to, you know, become a so-called woman was a journey toward joy and authenticity and love and all these good things. You know, that messaging on the one hand, and then this messaging on the other hand of hearing how people actually felt after these surgeries.

Levi Hayes: it's a life saving solution, but how you get the buildup about, you know, surgery to surgery or treatment to treatment to surgery to surgery, it's just like the next thing, the next thing, the next thing that leads to this. And then, yeah. And then you find out that this is just the, you know what I mean? The, um, not what it was supposed to be and that it's actually harming people.

Stephanie Winn: So you kept hearing these stories of how awful people actually felt after orchiectomy and vaginoplasty. And then this dragged on for years, right? You spent eight years on the drugs with having had the facial feminization surgery and breast augmentation. Was there like a procrastinating kicking the can down the road or are you like telling yourself one thing consciously about why you weren't doing it, but like another thing was going on under the surface or what was that about?

Levi Hayes: Well, life was happening as well, of course. And I was moving around like a gypsy because of what had happened to me. But, you know, you get different stories too from different doctors. It's like the medicine, well, there is no science really to back the medicine up as far as they don't know what they're doing. So it's kind of like, you know, progesterone this month and none the next month. So one doctor, yeah, we can start now or, you know, So you get mixed messages on when's the appropriate time. And so with that, Also, it's just like the feeling of going through all of these procedures and one leads to the next, to the next, and it's kind of like a little addiction that you form. You get a little more validation, a little more validation. And that's why I can't say that, like I said before, that I have those mixed feelings about what my trans experience was. It wasn't horrible. I hate to be like that, but I didn't look horrible. I was very stereotypical because it was a stereotype of a woman, but I was pretty. And it was very isolating for me because the whole experience of uh, between trans women, that whole community thing. There's really no community. It's like, uh, who's had the most surgeries type thing. So it continues that. And so then when you get to the whole, to the whole, you're going to have this thing to find out that people are having all of these horrible results and life-threatening things. And it's not what it's, that's just a damn wound. What? That really shook me. That really did. And shakes the reality and of it all. And I kind of just stuffed it. I kind of just stuffed it and ignored it. Because what are you going to do when you've gone this far? And there's a lot of people like that.

Stephanie Winn: Yeah. Can you say more about what you meant when you said it's just a wound? Was there some kind of understanding that you had at one point about what these surgeries are that radically changed at some point?

Levi Hayes: just to hear so many stories of the dilation trauma and having to do that every day for the rest of your life and people who have gone through extreme ways of trying to keep up with that. and to end up with nothing but it closing up, and it's just a wound. It's a wound that wants to close up because it's the human body, and that's what happens. It's trying to protect itself, right? And so for the science to, the pseudoscience or whatever, to give this false promise, right, and something else there that isn't discussed enough, I think, is the trauma that occurs because of transition, besides the trauma that got you there in the first place. And so, you know, that's a lot. That's a lot. All those experiences that we go through living a transitioned life, as it doesn't matter what the transition life may consist of, it causes trauma leading that life.

Stephanie Winn: Can you say more about that?

Levi Hayes: Sure. I mean, it's in the way people treat you. It's in everything that you have to go through to keep up the illusion. Um, it's in everything that you have to go through. If you can't keep up the illusion. Right. Um, for me, like I said, I was attractive, so I got to see the other side, the dynamic of how men can be with a feminine person. that is attractive and just how disgusting that can be. I mean, stalking, disgusting. The trauma of feeling like You have forced, even though you haven't, because people love you and they only want to see you happy. That's my message to people, to detransitioners. But feeling like you forced everybody to go along with this illusion in the pronoun game and the name game and all of those things. That's traumatic. That's horrible. It's a horrible regret to have. It really is. And there's just so many other things. And that's why, just that in and of itself is a reason why each and every single detransitioner should have some therapy. They really should, because not all detransitioners are getting therapy. And a lot of that, yes, is accessibility, and some of it is ignorance.

Stephanie Winn: And that's not a bad thing, it's just… What would you say to detransitioners like you, whose first experience of therapy was awful, and who might have a hard time being open to the idea of trusting a therapist again?

Levi Hayes: All humans are fallible. All humans are fallible. And so you can't judge a whole profession, a whole industry, a whole whatever by one single person. You just can't. Or a process by one event. You just can't. So it takes patience. But in research, you just gotta connect with other people, and you will find that person that can help you, guide you in the right direction.

Stephanie Winn: So during these eight years, you had terrible reactions mentally and physically. Well, you didn't talk so much physically about your reactions to the drugs. Actually, was there something you wanted to say about that?

Levi Hayes: Over time, I had a tremendous amount of weight gain on the estrogen. I was almost at 300 pounds. yeah and i had high blood pressure and i was borderline diabetic I, of course, by that time had rendered me, um, you know, I had erectile dysfunction and, um, penile atrophy by that time for that long on the, on the, uh, blockers. So those were my physical side effects and I was miserable. I was just miserable. I was so big.

Stephanie Winn: Did you realize at the time that what you were doing to your endocrine system would have these metabolic impacts, or did you just attribute it to lifestyle?

Levi Hayes: I didn't realize at the time that it would have really affected me in these ways that drastically. I really didn't. No. No, I attributed it to lifestyle, you know, but it slowly happened over time. But with research, you know, and listening to other detransitioners and stuff, I figured that out naturally.

Stephanie Winn: So I'm hearing your life was a wreck. When you started these drugs, you became more impulsive. You lost your business. You went bankrupt. You were in an abusive relationship. I mean, part of your motives were social. You were looking for love and acceptance, but what you found in, like you said, the so-called community of other trans-identified males was just kind of petty one-upmanship. So you didn't get what you were looking for, and then the things that you eventually had your sights set on, you realized that that vision crumbled, your understanding of what those surgeries entailed fell apart. What was the breaking point where you decided to come off the drugs and detransition?

Levi Hayes: Hmm, the breaking point, the breaking point was I watch a lot of, I watch a lot of soft white underbelly. And yeah, I came across Shapeshifter's interview and was still not convinced. and thought, this is not really a trans person, and this must be an addict or a prostitute or something, because they still had the activist mindset. I still had that. I participated that heavily. I participated in activism in the trans community in Memphis, Tennessee. So I had that mindset still. I was woke, you know, and I watched it. I watched it. And I will tell you, Stephanie, that by the end of that interview, I was just beside myself in tears. I just was because shape. spoke to my soul. That was my story he was telling. He made it okay and allowed me to say, yep, that's what you did. you were trying to escape yourself and your homosexuality. And I will, it doesn't matter how many podcasts I do, if I'm asked that, I will say Shapeshifter is my hero.

Stephanie Winn: Have you reached out to Shapeshifter?

Levi Hayes: I have reached out to Shapeshifter and have emailed him. And I haven't had a reply, but I have emailed him and he is my hero, it doesn't matter, but he is my hero, period.

Stephanie Winn: I hope a listener finds the inspiration to share this interview with Shapeshifter and hear these words coming from your heart.

Levi Hayes: Because, yeah, that just… I woke up, and that's the thing, you can't tell people what to do, how to feel, anything. They have to find it on their own. And that day, I found shape, and shape gave me that, and changed my life.

Stephanie Winn: So after hearing that interview with Shapeshifter, how quickly did things unravel?

Levi Hayes: It took me about a year to sit on it. It really did. To sit on it and to just come to terms and have enough bravery to say it. to say it. And I found, I contacted somebody that I know, an acquaintance that is a therapist, and just dumped it and explained it. And she's like, you don't sound crazy. No, because I just, I'm just like, what do I do with this? And that's where it all began. And that was in June of this year, of 24, is when I started my detransition.

Stephanie Winn: So it's still pretty new.

Levi Hayes: Yeah.

Stephanie Winn: What have you had to learn or unlearn or discover or rediscover to become a man again. I mean, you were always a man, but you were in denial of that for a long time and trying to hide that to the world. And you're a bit older than some of the other detransitioners. So this is happening to you in middle age as well. And I'm thinking about the contrast between like the idealized image of a woman that many trans-identified males have, the sort of pornified, eternally young, hot woman that they fantasize about being versus the reality that we all age. But, you know, not even women who are blessed with supermodel looks stay that way forever. What to speak of, you know, men who achieve those looks through drugs and surgeries. So I'm thinking about like the intersection of aging and the sort of like coming home to yourself and your world falling apart. What have these past eight months been like for you?

Levi Hayes: Great. They've been great. that that that's like There's like a certain euphoria, and I've heard it from other detransitioners, and I recently, I've made a new friend with somebody that's started their process, and that's something they said too, and it's so common, like, coming home to yourself, like, it's like welcome home is so amazing to feel that, you know? So it has been great, and the age thing, Okay, whatever. So, it's been just like a total revelation, I guess? Like, a total self just like rediscovering myself because I've never, I've never taken care of my body. You know, I never have. I've abused my body and I abused it through surgery and drugs and this and that and the other. And it left me that big. So that's kind of critical for my health. So I've taken, I've taken my detransition, like, so super seriously but my diet has totally changed and I'm like I am out every morning at 5 and we are running and we are walking and yeah and I'm down to 210 now 210 that's huge since June so Um, yeah. I feel good about it and my body's changing and I'm just taking it slow and preparing to have that next surgery. So… Surgery? To remove my breast implants. and I'm going to take my time with it because this process of detransition is not the affirmation process where you go to McTherapy and in five months later you have this body. It's not. It's just not. It's going to be slow. It's confusing. There's no resources. So I might as well just take my time and have my body perfectly where I need it to be able to go through the surgery and come out decently without, you know, all the things that could go wrong if I rushed, right? So that's where I'm at with my body and my age and I'm trying to be, I'm doing things the right way this time, right? Therapy, all of these good things to take care of myself because this is my only temple.

Stephanie Winn: It sounds like you're finally giving yourself those things that for so long you were looking for outside of yourself and that you thought this idea of transition would bring you. You were looking for love, acceptance, validation, support, and now you're like, how can I give myself all of those things? How can I take care of my body? How can I approach detransition in a whole different way? Then I approached transition, like not this rushed manic escape from myself, but really just returning home to myself and honoring the pace that my body needs to move at.

Levi Hayes: Absolutely. I'm exploring all of the things that I should have been exploring in the last eight years, the things that my therapist should have guided me towards. right? The things that I should have should be privy to or have completed by now, but I'm doing it now and that's what's important. So not not what was or anything because, you know, hindsight, hindsight, and you know, ideas change, obviously, they have changed. And I'm just not going to be defined by that, or my past. And so I know what I need to do, and I'm doing it the right way. And hopefully that resonates for somebody else.

Stephanie Winn: So kind of bringing it home to where we started, what would you say to another, let's say, detransitioned person or someone, you know, lost in transition? Because there are, there are a lot of people unaccounted for, like, you know, males who have had orchiectomies, you know, like now they have to be on drugs and many choose estrogen because the testosterone the impact of having their sex drive increase when they no longer have their genitals is just too painful. So I call those people lost in transition. With all of these people who've been harmed and disillusioned. who are considering writing a letter to their state's licensing board, submitting a formal complaint against the therapist who affirmed them. I know that's not what we ended up spending most of our time talking about, but I'm grateful that you got to share so much of your story. But what would you say to anyone who's thinking of following in your footsteps?

Levi Hayes: I would say to really put some thought into that because and how it might help turn the tide by just one story. And to just keep in mind that you shouldn't hold fear from that because that's anonymous. So. That's anonymous.

Stephanie Winn: It's a good point.

Levi Hayes: And if anything, if anything, do like I did in the beginning. Just write it for yourself. It's good for yourself. You might need it later.

Stephanie Winn: Yeah, it's a good point. And there might be statute of limitation issues in your state, which might either mean that if it has been a long time, like in your case, Levi, then yeah, maybe they can't formally investigate. But again, it's another drop in the bucket that might help with eventually sending the message to these boards that people are being harmed. And you might want to research the statute of limitations in your area, especially with regard to filing board complaints, because it might influence the timing of your decision-making process if you are within that. So, thank you for sharing your story, Levi. I'll include your blog post in the show notes as well as my blog post with the explanation as to how people can take advantage of these boards that are designed to protect consumers and mental health services. And thank you so much for sharing your story today.

Levi Hayes: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Stephanie Winn: Thank you for listening to You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist. If you enjoyed this episode, kindly take a moment to rate, review, share, or comment on it using your platform of choice. And of course, please remember, podcasts are not therapy, and I'm not your therapist. Special thanks to Joey Pecoraro for this awesome theme song, Half Awake, and to Pods by Nick for production. For help navigating the impact of the gender craze on your family, be sure to check out my program for parents, ROGD Repair. Any resource you heard mentioned on this show, plus how to get in touch with me, can all be found in the notes and links below. Rain or shine, I hope you will step outside to breathe the air today. In the words of Max Ehrman, with all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world.