You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist

Swell AI Transcript: 159. Gina [Audio Only].mp3
Gina:
The testosterone level, the first shot that I was given was a very low amount. I told the doctor, look, I want you to increase the amount because I want to see changes. I want it to look like a guy. I wanted to see those secondary sex characteristics. So she said there's no rush, but I was in a rush. I was at full speed ahead and nothing was going to stop me. So she upped the dose. It was unbearable. The sex drive, it is overwhelming, distracting like you would not believe. It interferes with your life. It became paramount, insane.

Stephanie Winn: You must be some kind of therapist. My guest today is Gina. She is an older detransitioner with a very interesting story to share, and I'm going to be hearing it for the first time today. Maybe most similar, possibly, to my recent guest, William Allen, who detransitioned after a whole 30 years after living as a so-called trans woman. Gina. began identifying as a boy in 1970 and didn't actually do the so-called transition until 40 years later. So wow, this is going to be quite a story. Gina, welcome. Thank you for being here today.

Gina: Thank you, Stephanie. It's a total pleasure to be here. And thanks for having me.

Stephanie Winn: Yeah. So I'm just going to be hearing your story for the first time. I only know the bare bones that you had childhood gender dysphoria a very long time ago. You transitioned, I put that in quotes, quote unquote, transitioned later in life and then de-transitioned in 2023. Those are some of the things I know. I also know that today we're going to be exploring the impact of your identity and choices on your relationship with your own child, which I think is a super interesting topic, something that has not come up yet on this podcast because usually it's It's the other way around, right, where the parent is worried about their trans-identified kid, but you yourself had a child. So this is all going to be super interesting. Where should we begin? Should we begin in 1970?

Gina: Might as well. Start with the beginning. Always the best place to start, right?

Stephanie Winn: All right. Go ahead. Tell us about it.

Gina: I had a crush on a girl. I was 10. I lived on a ranch out in Chino, California. And it's pretty isolated. We were on 116 acres. And we knew this family on the other side of the hill. And one of the kids was a little girl. Well, not so little, but I think she was either 11 or 12. I was 10. I already said that. I remember being at a family party there. and being very consciously aware of this crush that I had on her, and jealous because she had a boyfriend. And it was clear that she had already started purity and I hadn't, but I knew I had a crush on her. And this boyfriend, I was really jealous of him. He was really mean, just seemed like a jerk, you know? And I thought to myself, in order for me to be, in order for me to like her, I have to be a boy too. I didn't consciously think that, but I just was aware of it, and this frustration that I wasn't a boy. So I don't know how long after that, but it was just that I decided to cross the hill, and it was during the summer, and the hill was dry, and there was a lot of straw, yellow straw, and it must have been over 100 degrees heat that I chose to trek that hill to make my confession to her. And I went up, her room was upstairs and we were in her room and I said, Lisa, I was supposed to be a boy. I didn't say I have a crush on you or anything like that. I just wanted her to know that I was supposed to be a boy, you know, just open that door. And she didn't say a word and put the needle on the record player, because in those days we had record players. And the record was, I Spilled the Wine. Screech? Yeah. The screech doesn't happen way later.

Stephanie Winn: This is so interesting because it's such a vivid description of how the child's mind works that when you're a kid, you have these limited ways of knowing and conveying what it is that you feel and what you want to others. In your little kid brain, you're like, pretty girl, like her. She likes boys. Only boys can like girls. Therefore, I'm a boy. If I tell her I'm a boy, If I tell her I was meant to be a boy, maybe she'll understand? There's some sort of naive hope there.

Gina: Good analysis, Stephanie. It wasn't my first crush either, but I was cognizant at that age, or made the connection somehow, or made the decision somehow, that too, like a girl, you had to be a boy. Let's put it that way, yeah.

Stephanie Winn: I was imagining what you might've been naively hoping she would say to that. And whatever it was you were naively hoping to hear, I don't think you heard it. No. Oh, you were meant to be a boy? Well then, you could be my boyfriend.

Gina: I don't even think I had any expectation of what she would say. I don't remember if I did or not. Somehow something magical would happen, that's all I know.

Stephanie Winn: Well then, let me get out my magic wand and abracadabra, hey, you are a boy. Now we can be happily ever after together.

Gina: Pretty much how I thought, yeah. And it's funny because, well, not funny really. Later on in retrospect, I perceived myself as having behaved as a stereotypically boy because in school I, this is embarrassing to say, but I socked her in the boob. She would, like I said, she had started. Yeah, not, I don't think I socked her hard.

null: It's so embarrassing.

Gina: It's like, I like you, so I'm gonna sock you. And it's something that I would, Imagine a boy to do certainly not a girl would do that to another girl.

Stephanie Winn: Well, that's that's how you prove that you're really a boy All right, wow this girl really kind of drove you nuts, huh Yeah, I mean

Gina: And I don't remember anything aside from that. It was a milestone, though, of just admitting to myself and to someone else that I was supposed to be a boy. Because it was pretty isolating. I mean, I had no one to talk to. I didn't tell one friend about this, not one person. And my father was a practicing alcoholic, and my mother was pretty much involved in herself. And so I didn't have that child-parental relationship. that later on I feel I have a daughter and I had one thing that I'm grateful for is that I had that communication with my daughter that I didn't have with my own parents. So it was pretty, and plus living on the ranch, it was also made it isolating.

Stephanie Winn: Just out of curiosity, if you had had a crush on a boy instead of a girl, would there have been anyone for you to talk to about your crush on that boy? Or were you pretty isolated either way?

Gina: Either way, I was pretty isolated. However, it must have been, I think, about a year or two later. Yeah, it was 1971. I was 11, I think. There was a boy. In those days, they called it going steady. And I think it was just way young for boys and girls to be asking each other, do you want to go steady? But for some reason, they were and there was a boy who in a note, they wrote it in a note, passed a note to another kid and give me a note saying asking me to go study with him and he was one of the popular boys, you know, and part of the popular clique, you know, there was already that kind of thing at 10, 11, which kind of surprises me now talking about it, but anyway, I accepted because, wow, someone likes me. Just period, end of story. I mean, just someone likes me and it's normal to have boys and girls, you know. He liked me because I was weird, because I was made fun of for being weird. I was bullied a lot from day one. When I was really little, I was bullied for being fat and chubby. And then when I was 10, 11, I was bullied for being weird. And this kid was attracted to that, which is kind of cool. But I thought I was supposed to then act like them. I couldn't be myself anymore. And then he dropped me because I wasn't myself. It's funny what you said brought that memory up. That was weird. Yeah.

Stephanie Winn: So we get this snapshot of life, and it almost feels like a different world back then, 1970, 1971. And then just to fast forward, it was 40, no, 30 years later, 30 years later. 40. 40 years later. Wait, hold on. I'm looking at my timeline here. I have in my notes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It was 2010. Yeah. Okay. It was 2010. Okay. So tell us about life growing up after that. I mean, did your feelings toward girls intensify? Did you date boys?

Gina: They stayed the same towards girls. And it was always a secret because I mean, the word gay or lesbian wasn't even on my radar. I always had a crush on my best friend. I'm going through the years, there's so many years.

Stephanie Winn: Was your best friend that neighbor girl?

Gina: No. Whoever my best friend was, I ended up having a crush on her.

Stephanie Winn: So you cycled through these like close female friendships with girls you became attracted to?

Gina: Yeah, and it had to keep a secret. I mean, I didn't grow up religious or anything like that, but I also didn't have a lot around me showing me that women could like women. And so somehow and it just was added to the shame that I already had. I grew up with shame just for being. And also there was some sexual abuse as a young child. So I had body issues and that plays a role as well in my transition. Just, you know, basic. not just feeling like I was supposed to be a boy, but just having shame around my body in general that I had internalized. So anything sexual, a sexual attraction, there was shame around that towards women, if that makes sense.

Stephanie Winn: And then at some point you had a family. So did you marry a man or what happened there?

Gina: Yeah, how do I frame this? There was a friend of a friend who pursued me. I was 21, and I wasn't interested. I hadn't come out as being a lesbian at that time. This was 1981. I kind of knew what gay was, but not really. And I hadn't admitted it to myself at that time. And he kept pursuing me and pursuing me and pursuing me. And at that time, Stephanie, I was really vulnerable. because I had already lost a part of myself. I was in a car fire, actually, and scarred from the car fire, a lot of trauma to my body, another body thing, right? So I had lost a piece of my identity, and I was really vulnerable. All I knew was that I wasn't interested in him, but he kept pursuing and pursuing, so I gave in. I grew to love him. We didn't marry, which was good because it was more convenient when I left him. And that's when I had my daughter, which was the great thing that came out from that. And I raised her as a single mom.

Stephanie Winn: Was her father in her life or?

Gina: He had a mental illness. I went to court and filed for custody of my daughter and he had the opportunity to be able to visit her, but he didn't show up at court. And it was deemed probably best that he didn't see her because of his ideas and thoughts at the time.

Stephanie Winn: Like as in?

Gina: Wasn't a well person.

Stephanie Winn: Yeah, so not connected to reality.

Gina: No, no, no.

Stephanie Winn: So you were pretty much the only parent that your daughter really knew growing up.

Gina: Yeah, yeah.

Stephanie Winn: And you had her quite young. I mean, you said that you were only 21 when you met her father.

Gina: Actually, I was with him for five years. I'm sorry, I kind of skipped. I had her in 1986, so I was 26.

Stephanie Winn: So this whole life as a single mom, before we get to the trans part of your story, how was your identity taking shape during that time? I'm sure you probably also had a career, a community, other things going on while juggling raising your daughter.

Gina: I went back to school. I chose to go back to school when she was about one and a half. And my life is kind of, can be viewed as kind of a comedy, a tragic comedy, maybe tragic comedy, I don't know. Because my decision to go back to school actually was suggested by someone at a frozen yogurt stand. I was getting frozen yogurt for my daughter. And she said, you ought to go back to school. okay. That was how I ended up getting my PhD too when I was getting my master's that one of the professors said you should go on and get your PhD and I thought okay. Just these little suggestions on the way because I didn't know what I was doing seriously but I was on you know government aid you know raising my daughter and and it would so I took I did that I went back to school so basically she grew up with me in college and had really good child care the best Got my You know went to community college and then went to Berkeley got my BA and She really flourished there had had a great community there other moms There were a few single moms, you know some couples, you know, we live in families student family housing that that was a good period of my life and My daughter was happy. I was fairly happy until I got a crush on another woman and and who, that's when I had to come to terms with the fact that I was gay and I came out as a lesbian at that time, actually. And it was the perfect place to do it in Berkeley, right?

Stephanie Winn: So if I'm understanding correctly, okay, so you were in your 30s.

Gina: Yes, yes.

Stephanie Winn: By the time, and you first had a crush on a girl when you were 10, or no, before that, that wasn't even your first crush.

Gina: It was a crush, exactly, yeah.

Stephanie Winn: OK, so it took until the 90s and living in progressive Bay Area, California.

Gina: Yes.

Stephanie Winn: Before you really came out as lesbian.

Gina: Yes.

Stephanie Winn: I guess being a mom kept you pretty busy.

Gina: Yeah, yeah, I did. And being a full-time student, but it worked. I didn't date or anything like that. My primary focus was, you know, raising my daughter and trying not to be like my parents, which is impossible at the end of the day. There's always going to be pieces of them coming out which I'm not happy about. There were a lot of moments when I wasn't present for her. But the great thing is we have the communication and she's able to tell me things and communicate with me that I wasn't able to communicate with my parents about.

Stephanie Winn: All right, well, tell us more. So you're raising your daughter. She's grown up in the Bay Area. You're in your 30s by the time you finally declare to yourself and the world that you're a lesbian.

Gina: And there was a support group. This is going back way back. I feel like I've lived several lifetimes in my life, Stephanie, so I have to shift my mindset. It's crazy. Yeah, there was a support group at that time, too, even in those days, a coming out support group. And it was all women, real women. You know, the craziness.

Stephanie Winn: Nothing like what a lesbian support group in the 2020s would look like.

Gina: Exactly. Exactly. And it was wonderful. And I had many opportunities to have, you know, intimacy with another woman or a relationship with another woman. And I ran away from it because I had issues around just sexuality in general. And I think that stems from what happened to me as a child, frankly. And in addition to that, I felt that there was this choice I had. I either had to be a butcher or a femme, and I didn't like that. I didn't feel that I fit in in either one. But it didn't… bother me too much at the time. It was it was kind of concerning me. I liked dressing as a man. I loved wearing ties and stuff like that and wearing hats and then someone mistaking me for a man. I loved it. It was so much fun. I mean, it was fun. It was just I was having fun. doing that, and at Halloween, I'd always dress, I remember one time dressing as a nerdy guy, and just, I experimented wearing men's pants and stuff like that. And in those days, it was lots of fun. That was the extent of it, but I didn't ever have a relationship with a woman. even though there were several opportunities, too. So fast forward. How much should I, how far should I fast forward? It's a lot.

Stephanie Winn: No, no, it's your story.

Gina: What happened after that? So just continuing my education, I ended up moving somewhere else and got my PhD. And yeah, it was when I was getting my PhD, and that was in the late 2000s, that it was in the air, the atmosphere, the trans stuff, and had a crush on another woman this time. She was a lesbian actually, but it wasn't reciprocated. And that's when I thought to myself, I am a man. I have to transition. And I started watching a bunch of YouTube videos and I was seeking older people who were transitioning.

Stephanie Winn: curious about how that leap took place, because it almost mirrors the leap when you were 10, right? Where the trigger is this romantic attraction. Exactly. You have this crush, and then, oh, I better tell her I was meant to be a boy. Like, that'll do it, right? And then, you know, and then you have this kind of chapter of life that could have been more exploratory but you had some issues. You had this kind of maybe fearful avoidant part of you that didn't want to go there when you did have opportunities to date women who you can now look back and see oh maybe that you know she might have been a suitable partner or she was interested in me or you know you kind you kind of see those missed opportunities from the 90s in the Bay Area. So there's all this avoidance of intimacy and then somehow we get to a crush on a particular woman that then once again becomes a catalyst for I am a man. So I'm kind of curious about if there's like a particular because not all romantic interests spark the same emotion, right? Some people have a more powerful pull on us or trigger us one way or another? What do you think happened where an attraction to a particular person somehow sparked this, I am a man?

Gina: That's a really good question, Stephanie. And it's a great connection that you made between the times that I made that decision. I don't know if I can answer that.

Stephanie Winn: I mean, I guess there's a lot of things we could speculate about. Like, was it fear? Was it like, because I can imagine, you know, sometimes people who are fearful of intimacy, they date in a way that allows them to kind of stay small and maybe they date people who they aren't all that attracted to. But if there's someone who sparks like a really powerful emotion, and especially with what you've said about your fearful relationship towards your own sexuality, I can imagine if this woman had a particular pull on you, whether it could have been a pheromonal thing, could have been that she reminded you of your mother in some Freudian sense. I mean, who knows, right? But there's something about her that sparked a big enough reaction that it sparked fear. And then the fear goes kind of to this coping mechanism. That's just a guess that I have.

Gina: When you said fear, it clicked in me. I knew exactly how to answer. Okay. I somehow had, I don't know if it's necessarily the person themselves, but it was the only way that I could love a woman was as a man. Because men, how do I say it? That way I could hide. I could hide who I really was. I was sexualized as a little kid. Something happened to me by a male. Males are, they don't care. They just, can I cuss on here? Can I say the F? They just want to fuck, you know? That's why I didn't care what I looked like to men or how, you know, cause I knew that's all what they wanted. But women, that's different. Women are for loving and to have, to be able to do the sex part, I have to be a guy. That's a big leap, but that was the way I could hide.

Stephanie Winn: To be able to do the sex part, you have to not care.

Gina: Wow, yeah. You're very, I can see how you'd be a good therapist, Stephanie.

Stephanie Winn: Well, that's what you just said. I mean, I'm looking at what, no, I mean, you said being a man equates to not caring.

Gina: Wow, I didn't make that, yeah.

Stephanie Winn: A lot of being a therapist is telling people what they just said. And then they're like, I've never thought of that. And you're like, yes, you have. That's what you just said. I mean, so you said being a man to you meant not caring. You described it as a shield. And I think it is that for a lot of these girls that I explore with their parents when we're talking about them, right? We talk about it like as a shield, a defense that they're hiding behind, kind of the association of man with not caring, whether it's not caring about my appearance, not caring what people think of me, just this, something that gives you almost like an exoskeleton. And why do insects need an exoskeleton? Because they're tiny, and they'd be crushed otherwise.

Gina: Yeah. And in fact, James, that I went by for a while, was my front man. I even called him my front man.

Stephanie Winn: Wow. OK, tell us about that.

Gina: I went through a lot of names, Stephanie, when I had made the decision, when I made the decision to transition. And the first name that I chose was Jesse, and it was because of an experience I had while meditation, while meditating. It's kind of embarrassing, but I'm going to share it. Why not? I was meditating and I was really asking the universe, God, whoever, what is my name? Because I wanted a name. And what came to me, it was not an audible voice, but it was something I heard, your name is Jessie. So I thought, wow, yeah, my name is Jessie. And I thought, oh good, check, I got my name now. But the problem with that was that when I went by that name, people thought it was short for Jessica because I hadn't started to pass yet as a male. And boy, did that piss me off. That pissed me off so bad. So I thought, I know I'm going to be Jesse James, you know, the tough outlaw, but only I'm going to do right. I'm going to be the good outlaw, whatever, you know. So I have my name changed to Jesse James and I have people call me by my middle name, which was James, which was the, was James time.

Stephanie Winn: Can we talk about that, what you just said? Because it reminds me so much of things that I hear parents tell me their trans identified daughters say, I'm gonna be the good man. So there's a lot of grandiosity that we see in the statements that the parents' daughters make. And grandiosity at that age is sort of a normal defense mechanism because you're gearing up the strength to feel like you can tackle adulthood, which is really intimidating. But I've heard them, you know, the parents tell me these things that their daughters say that sound like this kind of grandiose fantasy of, you know, men are terrible, men are you know, toxic masculinity, blah, blah, blah. But I'm going to be the good man. Right. I, the daughter, I'm I'm a girl. I'm going to be the good man. I'm going to be the knight in shining armor. I'm it's almost like I'm going to redefine masculinity. And I kind of hear that, right, when you say Jesse James, but I'm gonna, you know, I'm, so does it feel right to say that that's, there's kind of like a grandiose fantasy there that gave you some kind of like comfort or strength or something to face life's challenges with? Like what was it for you?

Gina: Oh, are you kidding? Like spot on, Stephanie. I mean, 110%. I mean, I thought about joining. I went online searching for knights, knights in armor, like, you know, there's like the knights of, I don't know, just anything having to do with a knight in shining armor kind of thing. I used to keep a blog, and one of the characters, I'm going to give myself away, but it's not like I was famous or anything, so it probably doesn't matter. The Bard, one of my characters is The Bard, and of course, The Bard came from inside me. I wrote poetry and the bard was like Cyrano de Bergerac, the guy with the big nose, but hid behind the bushes while the more attractive one, you know the story of Cyrano de Bergerac probably. Oh, well, Cyrano is this ugly guy with a huge nose. I mean, he has a huge nose, but his ability to write poetry, he's so literate, beautiful poetry, and he falls in love with this woman, Roxanne, and and he sends this more attractive young man who she would fall in love with because he was so ugly. How could she fall in love with him, right? And he gives him the words that he writes and has him say them to Roxanne. And so he kind of lives vicariously through the guy. The guy does totally illiterate, wouldn't be able to write, you know, a three line poem, but Sarah knows just can, you know, I saw myself as that. I was, you know, that's another thing, Stephanie, it plays into the transition because Having the scars, it was, there was a lot of pressure. I grew up where makeup, you know, my mom would put on makeup every day, this thing around beauty and wearing makeup. And I'm kind of digressing. I know, I hope this circles back somehow. The beauty thing, a lot of pressure around that. And when I was, I never, my mom was much more into makeup. I myself didn't want to wear it, but I felt pressured to. And especially after the scars, it's like she wanted to make me up, you know, makeup artist, just a lot of pressure to hide the scars. And men don't have that pressure. They can have the pot belly, they can have the scars, they can have the balding head, they can have all that stuff. I don't want to say they can be ugly quotes, but in essence, yeah, there's no pressure to be beautiful, so to speak. That's how I perceived it. So that was one more thing checked off the list. I don't have to worry about that anymore. And so being a man loving a woman, I didn't have to worry about being ugly, so to speak with, you know, how could anybody want me because of the scars kind of thing. It's screwed up thinking. Did I come full circle there or just go off on a total tangent?

Stephanie Winn: A little bit of both. I mean, so we're just kind of exploring. we're just exploring the symbolic significance of the trans identity to you that, you know, so we looked at how to you being a man meant not caring. And in order to have sex, you have to not care. So the fantasy that maybe one day you could have sex, but it would be as a man and also this sort of shield to hide behind. And then also the, grandiose fantasy of being the knight in shining armor, also the gifted poet hiding in the bushes, right? That my true identity as this ugly person no one could ever love is concealed, but my genuine gift, my gift of poetry, my creativity, my love, my valor, that can shine forth and be delivered by this alter ego that I construct.

Gina: I couldn't have said it better.

Stephanie Winn: So it's the romantic feelings toward this woman that spark the sort of flare up of the manly alter ego that you've constructed.

Gina: Yes, and especially I think I just had the realization now, this was an open rejection by her. Whereas in the past, I hadn't been rejected. I just had run away from the opportunities. And even the little girl in 1970, she didn't accept or reject. I mean, it just was what it was. This was the first time that I was clearly rejected. I mean, of course she wanted to stay friends, we were friends. So I think that added the extra push that this had to be the only way that I could.

Stephanie Winn: Oh, and rejection is one of those things that I would say in an ideal upbringing, we get enough sort of exposure therapy to gradually build up a callous to rejection, but we also get enough acceptance at the same time. We get enough people telling us what our gifts are, people telling us all the things they like about us. Ideally, we have a nice balance of, learning to tolerate rejection, but not facing too much of it and having it sort of counterbalanced. But in your case, because of this kind of fearful avoidant pattern, you didn't really have either of those. You didn't get enough experience with rejection to know that it wasn't the end of the world. And you also didn't get enough.

Gina: No one's ever said that. And that really resonates.

Stephanie Winn: So then you face this rejection and it feels like the end of the world. Is that right?

Gina: Yeah, and that was the driving force. I mean, I remember the very next night I was sitting where I'm standing right now before you. There used to be a chair here and I was sitting in the chair and I closed my eyes and I went deep down inside and said, I am a man. And I also sent her a poem. I got in trouble a few times. I sent the same woman a poem and I don't remember the exact words except the very last line had offended her a little bit. She kind of laughed it off, but it had to do with something like, it's all about that. It's all about implying it's all about the penis, implying. I don't remember all the words that came before that, but I do remember that part that was a little offensive. And I actually had offended a woman before that, the one that inspired The Bard, the poetry that The Bard supposedly wrote. I had offended her with, there was a little bit of aggression in the poetry that I sent her via private message through a social media platform. And mind you, I was high at the time, I was smoking marijuana, so there was an influence, but I don't blame it on the marijuana. I was still responsible for that. And I did apologize, but I was still an asshole. I was still an asshole, Stephanie. And I looked at myself and I thought, what the hell are you doing? It's like I had this alter ego, the female part saying, what in the hell do you think you're doing? It's as if I had this dialogue going between male and female.

Stephanie Winn: So I mean, when people do drugs like weed or psychedelics, it's generally a bad idea to communicate with others from that plate. Like if you're going to get high and get loopy and get some strange ideas, maybe just keep it to yourself. You know? So yeah, you're taking responsibility for your actions. But OK, when you say, it's all about the penis, were these straight women? Because I thought you said one of them was a lesbian.

Gina: The last one, the lesbian, was the one that I said that to.

Stephanie Winn: And what did you mean? Because clearly you didn't mean, like you weren't putting her down for being attracted to men. So what did you mean by that, it's all about the penis?

Gina: And I didn't say it explicitly like that. I said a phrase that implied that. But to be frank, I am not sure exactly, except… Because you were high? I think I was coming off of a high at that time. This is so embarrassing. I'm saying to the public, yes, but it's the truth. I mean, it is what it is.

Stephanie Winn: I mean, we can remove this part if you have any regrets. The world does not have to hear about your high thoughts.

Gina: I mean, it's up to you. I think it partly, it was in, I think it was just more of that idea that I had to be a man to be able to be with her. That even though she was a lesbian, perhaps part of me thought that even she would want me if I was a man. I don't know, the sex part anyway, that it somehow, I don't know. I don't have quite the exact words, but I think it was more.

Stephanie Winn: This woman that we're talking about here, had she had experiences as a lesbian? Has she had relations?

Gina: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Very experienced lesbian. OK.

Stephanie Winn: It must have been strange for her to have this kind of, because it was clearly a you problem, right? It was like you had this issue long before she crossed your path where you had this idea that in order to be with women, you had to be a man. And then you're projecting that onto her, a lesbian who's experienced in relationships. So it probably felt really discordant to her. Like, what is this?

Gina: You know, that's probably true. But I mean, she said that that kind of threw her off. So she was felt thrown off by the writing. But she wanted to to stay friends. She has a very open mind. This is a very open minded woman. She doesn't get phased too easily. We didn't talk much about that, actually, though, after that. And then what happened? watched a lot of YouTube videos, so I clicked into those. The older they were, the women were, the more I really listened because I wanted someone like me, you know, talk about their experience in transitioning.

Stephanie Winn: And I saw- How old were you at this point? We're talking, what, 2010? So, like, you were like 50-ish? 50, yeah.

Gina: and I was still getting my degree and hanging out at the LGBTQIA plus center on campus and had known about transition and trans people and things like that.

Stephanie Winn: Where were you at with regard to menopause at that point?

Gina: Perimenopause. Actually, before that experience, I had experienced paramenopause in my late 40s, I think it was. And I saw, so I wasn't even thinking about transitioning during that time. And I saw a doctor, a specialist who gave me HRT, the right kind for women. And my hot flashes disappeared. I mean, it was debilitating, the hot flashes at that time. And I felt great. But when I had decided to to transition, that ended and went on the testosterone. So while I was on the testosterone for those 13 years, it kind of put a lid on the hot flashes and the perimenopause, but my body was trying to, my body was still doing a female body's thing. For example, if I was late on a testosterone shot, I would immediately have hot flashes.

Stephanie Winn: Gosh, it's so strange to think of what a hormonal roller coaster you must have been on at that time.

Gina: Oh, Stephanie, that's not half of it. That fantasy of being able to love a woman as a man, that went out the window because what testosterone did was made me sexually attracted to men.

Stephanie Winn: Ah, another one of these things that people are just starting to become a little bit more aware of. So far, I only know anecdotes about this, so thank you for contributing your anecdote. So for people in the audience who are like, wait, what? If you're just hearing this for the first time, yes, I know at least a lot of anecdotal evidence. I don't know about any data because I haven't looked into the research on this. um that cross-sex hormones change people's sexual orientation and often and it often looks like this right where someone who is same-sex attracted starts taking cross-sex hormones and then becomes opposite-sex attracted Or vice versa, to be honest. I mean, there are a lot of stories of heterosexual autogynephilic males who go on estrogen and something between the estrogen and the porn that they're watching. I mean, porn's a big factor for the males. You know, then they start being attracted to men. So yes, if you're in the audience and you're just now hearing this for the first time, this is a real thing. So Gina's gonna tell us what it looked like for her, okay? So please continue.

Gina: testosterone level the first shot that I was given was a very low amount and I didn't feel much and I told the doctor look I want you to increase the amount because I want to see changes I wanted to look like a guy I wanted to see those secondary sex characteristics and she is actually a she but trans identified so I um so-called trans man like myself and she's i'm choosing to use sex-based pronouns i'm used yeah so she um said there's no rush but i was in a rush i was on full speed ahead train you know full speed ahead i was on this one-way train and nothing was going to stop me so um she upped the dose um because we started out very very small when she upped the dose It was unbearable, Stephanie. The sex drive, it is unbearable, overwhelming, distracting like you would not believe. It interferes with your life. I mean, it became paramount, insane. over time I learned to mitigate it but I realized that I was obsessing over the male body part that I was obsessing over male bodies and I did not see them as I would see a woman that I'm attracted to and then also sexually attracted to I saw them purely for just sex and And by the grace of God, I would say, I did not follow through with it, but I came very, very close. I had friends who were also trans-identified who basically just pimped themselves out. I had a friend who, she was house-sitting and she was also trans-identified like myself, a so-called trans man. She was house-sitting and put it out on Craigslist and men just came and she just fucked her one right after another, after another. That's how it is. And I came very close to doing something like that, but didn't.

Stephanie Winn: Because of what testosterone did to your sex drive. And all of this is happening in your 50s as a sexually inexperienced lesbian.

Gina: Thanks for naming it. I didn't say I didn't think of it that way, but it's so true.

Stephanie Winn: I mean, it's a very strange experience. It's strange enough for young men, you know, young men who are designed to go through that. Exactly. But to be, yeah, like right when for a lot of women, their sex drive is decreasing. And also they've passed their prime, so to speak. Now you're like a horny teenage boy who suddenly wants to have sex with men for the first time.

Gina: Exactly.

Stephanie Winn: And so what I'm hearing is that you were a danger to yourself. It made you so impulsive. And I mean, this is a known effect of testosterone, which is why it's so bloody irresponsible of these so-called health care providers to be prescribing it to young mentally unstable people. I mean, it is known to make people disinhibited and reckless. So I'm hearing that you came very close to prostituting yourself? That's what I'm hearing. And can you just, for those of us who are having a hard time comprehending, because it is known, and I know people are going to be hearing this for the first time on this podcast, but it is a known thing, what you just said, that trans-identified people often use prostitution to, for example, raise money for surgery, or because they can't get a job, or what have you. Why was that your, like, if, I mean, supposing you did want to have sex with men for the first time, why start there?

Gina: Because that, I would never want to kiss a man. It would just be from the waist down. I mean, why kiss a man? I mean, why? There was no love there. There was no… there wouldn't be any relationship there. And I knew in my mind that if I were to have sex with a man, I would make it very clear to him, look, this is purely sex, purely, I'm not gonna kiss you, don't expect to kiss me, just from the waist down, that's it.

Stephanie Winn: All right, so you came very close to prostituting yourself as a middle-aged lesbian.

Gina: When you put it that way, it's just hilarious, yes.

Stephanie Winn: Got to laugh, right?

Gina: You have to.

Stephanie Winn: It's pretty crazy. Yeah. Okay. So, and then what?

Gina: Can we back up some years, Stephanie? Sure. Actually, there was one relationship I had in the 90s with a woman, but we didn't really have intimacy. It was a long distance. It was when the internet was new. and she was across the country, she was in Maryland, and she came out to visit me in Berkeley, and I realized we didn't have any chemistry, but because it was novel for both of us, we just went through with it anyway. So I really don't count that, that's why I didn't remember it, but just for the record.

Stephanie Winn: You're like, I'm not 100% inexperienced.

Gina: Yes. Oh my gosh. Oh, it's so funny. Okay. But fast forward again. What happens next? Oh yeah, and I want to say too, I ran out of testosterone and I didn't have a refill and prescription. I freaked out. I remember sitting in a parking lot and then next town over, I don't know why I was in that part. Oh yeah, it could have been the night that I was actually going to see if I would have sex with a stranger. I was in a more seedy part of the area and like I say, by the grace of God, something in me said art. express it in your art and then I didn't have that urge anymore. But that very night though, it might not have been that very night, I'm sorry I'm skipping around a lot, it gets kind of fuzzy Stephanie, maybe it was the testosterone effect in my memory, I don't know, In that same seedy area, which is symbolic, actually, of how I was feeling, I remember sitting in my truck and calling the clinic in San Francisco saying, I'm about to run out of my testosterone. I was freaking out. I had so much fear. I was in panic, Stephanie, of going back and having a hot flash, going back and being a woman. That was the last thing. That was the thing I was most afraid of. I was more willing to go through like experience what I call Mr. Toad's wild ride, then go back to being a woman. That's how much fear I had of going back. It scared me. I look back at it now and think, wow, I'm in such a different place now. But that memory, I just had that memory of that.

Stephanie Winn: What do you think that was about?

Gina: Good question. I had this goal. I had this dream. And you know what it was? I'm going to go back to another movie you probably haven't seen it. This movie is from the 70s. It's called Somewhere in Time with Christopher Reeves and Jane Seymour. And he goes back in time. He actually achieves it. He goes back to the early 1900s and he falls in love with a woman and he reaches into his pocket and sees and pulls out a 21st century penny and it yanks him back to the present moment and he loses that. He loses that dream. Feeling that hot flash was like pulling that penny out of the pocket and pulling me out of that dream.

Stephanie Winn: Okay, so I have to compare this to something that's happened in my consulting work with ROGD parents. Because, so for context here, I've developed a habit when I'm working, whether it's therapy, which I did for most of my professional career, or this recent switch to coaching and consulting, same thing applies. I will have just some kind of inkling, a vision, a metaphor, something that maybe doesn't completely make conscious sense, but I'll just learn to trust it and then I'll say it and then that thing will hold significance for the other person. So I've just really learned to trust that process, right? And I had that happen recently on a coaching call with a couple of parents I was talking to who are worried about their adult son who believes he's a woman. And I found myself saying, do you know those dreams where you're trying to fly? And the mom knew exactly what I was talking about. The dad had never had these dreams, but the mom had had the same types of dreams that I'd had. And it was not dreams where you can just fly all over the place. It was more this type of dream that I have periodically where I can fly, but barely. It's like I can, if I puff my energy enough, I can like float a few feet off the ground. And the mom has had these same types of dreams. And we were exploring how those dreams are an analogy for what the son is sort of putting across when he talks about his female identity. It feels like this really ephemeral thing, almost like he's afraid of waking up from a dream. So he had talked, for instance, about how you know, when he goes and visits grandma, for instance, that it sort of threatens to pull him out of the dream. That's sort of our translation of what he said about it. It's almost like he, it's like this, um, I think I can't, I think I can't, I think I can't like this, like wishful thinking, like fantasy. Like if I just puff myself up enough, if I hold my breath and flatten my wings. And if I do all these things with my imagination, then I can stay in this state where I'm hovering above the ground and I'm in dreamland and I'm a real girl. But if grandma enters the room or if mom looks at me that way, or dad calls me my real name, or if someone doesn't like my skirt, then it's all gonna fall apart and I'm gonna wake up from the dream and come crashing to the ground. Like, that is the impression that I have been given in some cases in a very clear way, as just described, but in other cases in a more sort of abstract way of what the trans identity feels like to certain people who are using it as this sort of shield from reality, this dream that they've concocted that they're trying hard to stay in. And when you said what you just said, it felt just like being back in those conversations. And I think the metaphor of something as tiny and worthless as a penny could pull this person out of the dream, out of the alternate universe, bring them back to the present reality where this fantasy no longer exists.

Gina: Yeah. I mean, that testosterone was my magic bullet. And I remember a YouTuber saying, who was an older transitioner at that time saying, Hey, you guys, this ain't no magic bullet. You got to remember that it's not a magic bullet. And I thought to myself, yeah, I know that. I know that little did I know at the time that I was believing it was, but I was in such denial, Stephanie, such denial. In fact, I was in denial of the fact that I really thought I could become a man. If I made my outsides look what I thought was my insides, I would be. But the problem with that was that every day someone would just prick the bubble, just pop, you know, prick the bubble by so-called misgendering me. And that just, that would infuriate me. It would infuriate me every time. And I remember talking to this other so-called, I'll just say trans man instead of so-called. We'll just assume that I mean so-called. Another trans man who had, he was one of those lucky, what I perceived to be lucky ones who was perceived as male even before she transitioned. And I wanted to be like that, but I wasn't. And she said, I forgot if my name was Jessie or James at the time, but she said, Jessie, let people be wrong. Let them be wrong. And I just couldn't wrap my head around that. I just wasn't in a place where I could do that. So I was miserable. When you're going against the grain of reality, it's a project in misery, endeavor in misery, perpetual misery.

Stephanie Winn: Well, and how strange to be going through that as a woman in your 50s because the fragility of the ego, I mean, you know, like I said, right, I spent all this time talking to people your age or a little younger about people much younger that they're worried about, right? That sort of fragile ego that depends on this not only external reinforcement, but the opinions of strangers in particular. Which and one thing I explore with these parents is just the absurdity of the idea that you can even know what other people think of you. I mean, at best. At best, you strive for an identity that's congruent, where you feel fairly confident that the impression you're giving other people matches who you feel like you are, and it's all something you feel good about. There's a coherence there. That's optimal, and many of us never even get there. you know, people with, you know, some sort of unfortunate genetic defect where, you know, there's something about their face that doesn't communicate to the world. And maybe you felt that as a burn victim, right? That with your skin condition, maybe you felt like it's hard to get people to see you the way you want to be seen, even setting aside the gender issue. So there's lots of ways that things beyond our control can impact our success at projecting the image we want of ourselves into the world. Then there are things within our control like our personality, our social skills. But still, I mean, the idea that, because when you listen to what the trans-identified youth say, it's this, I need people I don't even interact with, I don't even know, I'm never going to see again, to see me a certain way. And it's like, well, if you were to unpack that, like, how do you even know? You're talking, I mean, at best, you know, based on whether they call you ma'am or sir. Most of your interactions, they won't even be calling you any of those things. You just have to guess. And that is just a recipe for disaster mentally to be fixating on what the cashier thought you were. I mean, So I mean, when I see that pattern in young people, I'm really hoping that they'll grow out of it. And I'm hoping to help their parents optimize what's still within their realm to control, which oftentimes isn't much. to help them, you know, nudge identity development in a healthier direction so people have a little bit more robust sense of self so that they, you know, care about the right people and not about the wrong people in terms of what impression they're giving and so that they can hope for some kind of coherence. But you'd had this whole life, and probably you'd had areas of life in which you did have a stable identity. I mean, you were a mom. You got a PhD in something. I don't know what. We didn't talk about your education, but I know you have one. You, I'm sure, had some aspects of your life and identity that were stable. And then to be going through this identity crisis later in life where now you're really fixated on what frickin' Joe Schmo thinks your gender is, that must have been so destabilizing.

Gina: Yeah. In retrospect, it was a 13-year project that I've grieved a lot over. I'm still healing and grieving over the loss of time. But I have learned since my detransition that I've learned that I have anchors that keep me on this planet, anchors that keep me in reality. And one anchor is my body. The body will never lie, the body. And then my other anchor is my relationship with my daughter. two anchors that keep me on the planet that literally keep me on the planet actually because I've been so depressed while raising her because I have I was diagnosed a handful of years ago with bipolar 2 and I hadn't didn't know that until a handful of years ago but before that time I'd been on lots of antidepressants. It was just a matter of getting by and trying to be the perfect mom that my mom wasn't, which made it worse. I think if I had relaxed a little bit, I think she would have had a better mom, but it is what it is. But oftentimes I had a lot of, I was so depressed, I had what you call suicidal ideation, I guess. And I remember one time, this was when she, I don't know, 11, she was 11 or 12, way long before the trans stuff. Going to a doctor's appointment, she was with me, she was in the waiting room, I went to the doctor, and I think the only reason I went to that doctor's appointment was to tell someone I need help. She gave me an antidepressant, prescribed it to me on the spot there because I was desperate and I didn't want my daughter to see how depressed I was. We talked the other day, she goes, mom, I knew. It's like kids know, they know. So she actually literally kept me on the planet because I might have gone through with that suicide had it not been for her. I would not want to do that to her. And I know today, suicide has a ripple effect. With people that we don't know that committed suicide, it affects us. When I hear people who committed suicide, a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend, or just someone in the community, it affects you. So she literally is my anchor, but the mother-daughter relationship, even more so because it's related to the body, I gave birth to her.

Stephanie Winn: Yes. Wow. And thank you for sharing that. And the fact that your sense of responsibility towards your daughter, your love for her, of course, but at minimum, that sense of not wanting to traumatize her, the fact that that kept you here, I'm grateful for it. And also, it's not unusual. And, you know, we have plenty of data on suicide, which is part of why it's so upsetting that the trans lobby lies about suicide. Because even though a lot of aspects of the trans thing are fairly new, although, you know, stories like yours show us it does go for, there are things about it that goes further back. Even though there's a lot that's new, some of the things we know about suicide are based on many years of data, and that can be extrapolated. And here's where I'm going with this. Responsibility to loved ones is a known suicide preventative factor, and children most of all.

Gina: Wow, I didn't know that, Stephanie.

Stephanie Winn: It's, I mean, you might not have known it, but when I say it, it sounds pretty obvious, doesn't it? Like anyone, you don't have to have a background in psychology to hear things and be like, yep, that sounds right. You know, like if someone's in that dark of a place where they're considering ending their life, and this is what we have plenty of data on, like what are the factors that influence which way it goes? In that sense, I, you know, I feel like I have nothing to live for, but I could not do that to my child. That is a known protective factor. And the reason I am using such a stern tone, I'm not lecturing you, I am showing how I feel about this because guess what? Transitioning does to people. It takes away their ability to have children. And then the trans lobby goes and lies about suicide and says the opposite of everything that's true about suicide. We know risk of suicide increases after these procedures and We don't have to guess as to why, all we have to do is look at the existing information about what we know about suicide and what we know about transition. We know transition takes away people's ability to have children. We know that having children is a suicide preventative factor. So these are like it's just these points cannot be overstated. And thank you, Gina, for being so vulnerable about your own story, because this is what that looks like, people. This is what that looks like. A human being sharing. I have been diagnosed with bipolar two disorder. I've had some pretty severe depressive episodes where I thought about ending my life. And when I thought about ending my life, I thought I could never do that to my child. This is exactly what it looks like up close and personal. Many of you listening to this show are concerned about an adolescent or young adult you care about who's caught up in the gender insanity and therefore at risk of medical self-destruction. I developed ROGD Repair as a resource for parents just like you. It's a self-paced online course and community that will teach you the psychology concept and communication tools the families I've consulted with have found most helpful in understanding and getting through to their children, even when they're adults. Visit ROGDRepair.com to learn more about the program and use promo code SUMTHERAPIST2025 at checkout to take 50% off your first month. That's ROGDRepair.com. So I asked about how long you waited to tell your daughter, how you decided to tell her, how it went when you told her.

Gina: Yeah, that was definitely a milestone. It was right there in 2010. In fact, I think it was after my first testosterone shot in November of 2010 after Thanksgiving. I had visited her. We were walking outside, taking a walk together. And I told her, I've decided to transition. And the first thing that came out of her mouth was, will you still be nurturing? And when I heard that, I thought to myself, was I ever nurturing? I didn't perceive myself as being a nurturing mom. But somehow, because she saw me as mom, she saw me, yeah. Now, I never forgot that.

Stephanie Winn: Clearly. How does it affect you emotionally now when you think about that?

Gina: It just confirms and adds and validates my later realizations around motherhood, that it's a sacred thing. It's real. It was one of the things, not even a thing, it's the anchor that brought me back to reality, Stephanie. It was, I would say, the largest, perhaps the largest anchor

Stephanie Winn: Well, and one of the things that we've talked about a bit today is our self-concept, um, our identity and how, you know, I was, I was saying earlier, under optimal circumstances, if we're fortunate, we can manage to produce to the world a version of ourselves that we can be proud of, that we feel congruent with, that we feel matches what we value. Um, and, part of how we get there again under optimal circumstances involves adequate mirroring, adequate reflection from the people around us of who we are so that we can come to see and know ourselves. And you've talked about your avoidance of intimacy, your, you know, relative lack of deep, romantic, long-lasting partnerships. And so without those, there was something missing perhaps. I'm sure you got it fulfilled through some other sources, but you also didn't have optimal parenting. So there were some deficits in your life of, you know, when it comes to people reflecting back to you who you are. So I'm hearing the significance for you of being told that you were a nurturing mother, and not knowing that about yourself. And that makes me really sad to hear. And also it reminds me of just how powerful those moments can be. And this is something that I instruct my coaching clients about. I will tell them about little moments like this. Oftentimes these are moments that come earlier in a person's life, but I think you give an example of how even later in life, we hear things about ourselves that we did not know and we take it deeply to heart. And I just want anyone listening to not underestimate the power of such a simple description and how much it can mean to someone to hear that about themselves. So, I mean, to see that you didn't have that mirroring, and of course it wasn't your daughter's job to provide that mirroring. She just happened to say something as an adult that you didn't even see that in yourself. Nobody had shown you that you had been a nurturing mom. I mean, looking back, because this was the beginning of your announcement when she said that, too. I mean, was there ever a part of you that looked back on that moment and thought, I should have dropped the identity right then and there?

Gina: I mean, that should have been a clear flag, but I was just blind at the time. I was, you know, it hit deep. It really hit deep, but I fouled it away. It's not something I woulda, coulda, shoulda. I can't do that. I can't afford to do that. I just allow myself to grieve and give my daughter space to express herself, which I've, she lives in another state, so I'm hoping, and she has got a lot of kids too, so she's like over the top busy, but I am hoping for a time when I can, be with her and give her the space to express herself. Because as a formerly trans-identified person, Stephanie, it becomes all about us. Everybody's got to walk around, walk on eggshells around us. And then you detransition, and then it's still about you. Oh, so-and-so's detransitioning. And I want to get off that train, you know?

Stephanie Winn: Yeah, this chapter of life, this chapter is about legacy, right? It's about generativity. It's about what you're giving back. And your daughter has shown you that you may not have been a perfect parent, but you were nurturing. And I'm hearing that another part of your true identity is that you're a grandmother.

Gina: Yeah, that's another thing is when you have grandkids, Stephanie, the heavens open up. I'm telling you there's nothing like it and you don't know until you have them. It's, you have this instant bond, instant. They love you and you love them, end of story. I mean, it's nothing like it and when my granddaughter, she was my first granddaughter, I guess we're fast-forwarding a lot here. We might be going back and forth. It's fine. Okay. She's kind of dramatic sometimes. I just love her. She grew up until she's 10 or 11 now, but in her earlier years, she knew me as a man. And so when I decided to do this transition, I told the kids, my daughter told the kids, And I didn't expect this response from her, but she cried to my daughter and said, why did Granro lie to me? And I remember apologizing to her and apologizing to my grandson. He didn't have that same reaction. He's younger. But, um, and I asked her, how can I make it up to you? And she said, you can, you can get me more tiny things for my birthday. Cause she likes tiny things, anything that's tiny. But now, in retrospect, I think it might take more than that. It's a living immense, it's a living immense. But we have a strong bond, but it has a ripple effect. That's what I learned.

Stephanie Winn: How old was she? It's gotta be so confusing for a child. You said your name was Grand what?

Gina: I give, when I was trans identified, I didn't wanna be called, it wasn't right to be grandpa. I'm not a grandpa and I didn't wanna be called grandma. So my daughter and I had pet names for each other. I called her Bo and she called me Ro. And so we decided to call me Grand Ro and that's who I've been since.

Stephanie Winn: Grand Ro. And how old was your granddaughter when she said, why did Grand Ro lie to me?

Gina: So it must've been two years ago and she's, Oh, she was eight, eight, yeah.

Stephanie Winn: Gosh, it must have been so confusing for her.

Gina: And she's, she's got a tough exterior. So I know a lot's going on inside that little girl, you know, and she's so beyond her years as well, emotionally. She has a lot of emotional intelligence. And I know, that's why I know that it might take more, you know, just spending time with her and maybe more will come out or something. And if it doesn't, it doesn't. If it does, it does. But just spending time with her because I think she runs deep. Those waters run deep in this little one.

Stephanie Winn: Clearly you love your grandkids a lot.

Gina: Yeah.

Stephanie Winn: And this is who you really are. I mean, we're talking about an identity crisis. You asked the universe what your name was. You clearly struggled with who you are, who you were, but it's right under your nose. You're a grandmother. That's part of who you are.

Gina: That reminds me of Wizard of Oz. There's no place like home. Yeah, you were home all the time. And I remember at 18, I was in Spain at the time. I had gone down to study abroad thing. And really it was just a search for myself. That's all it was. The whole thing was just a search for who am I? It wasn't just study abroad. I didn't study at all. But I remember standing somewhere in Spain, looking over this mountain range, asking myself, who am I? You know, just moments like that throughout my whole life. Who am I? And now I'm just grateful to be alive, Stephanie, because I have lost that person. I've lost myself. I get glimpses of her. I will never be that. I'm realizing I will never be that person again. But the bottom line I can hold on to, something I can hang my hat on is that I'm still a woman. I'm a mother, I'm a grandmother, I'm a sister. That has never changed and it never will change. And I'm grateful for what I have. And I'm starting to like myself for who I am. It's about time. Yeah, it took a long windy road to get there.

Stephanie Winn: So, I mean, part of me feels like we've already kind of reached the conclusion, but there's all these parts that we haven't talked about yet. So I'm feeling a little torn. Part of me wants to ask you more about, like, what were those 13 years like? And then, you know, what was the catalyst for detransitioning? So I'll just kind of let you decide where you want to go.

Gina: I'd love to talk about the parts along the way that the first one was, will you still be nurturing? And then all the times that I would be so infuriated when someone saw me as a woman or said, is Jessie short for Jessica or something like that. Ironically, there was another milestone. I was watching YouTube and I'm sure you know who Blair White is, right? She said, or he, I'm not going to use the preferred pronouns here. Blair said, I will never be, I'll just be a facsimile of a woman out there. I will never be a woman. Something to that effect. And guess what? I felt, I took a breath. I felt like I literally physically took a breath because somehow I needed to hear that. I needed to hear the truth. Oh yeah, I'll never be a man. So I filed that away and I just started journaling about it. I started having this fear that this was a failed experiment. And that was in my journal, just, I have fear this is a failed experiment. And it was repeated and repeated and repeated. I kept journaling and journaling. And I started watching YouTube videos of detransitioners because I thought, well, I'm a true transsexual because I've identified as a transsexual, not transgender. you know, I thought I was real, the real transsexual like Buck Angel and Blair White, right? And I watched these detransitioner videos as just kind of an educational thing, just curious, you know, and that kind of was filed away. But it wasn't as strong as when Blair said, I'll never be a woman. And then, oh yeah, I was flourishing in my art. I had produced like over 70 pieces of art. And let me tell you something else about testosterone. It's like instant ambition, instant motivation, instant energy. I'm telling you, Stephanie. I was, I produced those 70 pieces like that. It was, and it's a steroid basically. A fellow detransitioner told me, she said, Gina, it's a steroid. You were taking a steroid. Yeah. It's not a surprise really, right?

Stephanie Winn: Well, and one thing we didn't really talk about is how your identity and steroid use meshed with your bipolar 2 diagnosis. It makes me wonder about, you know, it's almost it's a it's a chicken and egg dilemma, too, once you start taking the drugs, because prior to starting taking the testosterone, I you know, if we had five more hours to talk, I'd be asking about like how hypomanic and depressive phases intersected with your sort of fluctuating identity and the compulsion to become a man, so to speak. And then, you know, once you add this mood-altering substance to the mix, it's like, did the hypomania trigger the drug use or did the drug use trigger the hypomania?

Gina: In the very beginning of the transition, it really rocked the boat with the testosterone and the sex drive and all that. And I was having panic attacks. I had never had panic attacks like that. I mean, high anxiety attacks, let's call them, borderline panic. I'd be walking and all of a sudden I couldn't breathe. It was just not being able to breathe oftentimes. I remember going on a mood stabilizer at that time and it worked. And that was just the beginning of the transition. And then after that, it's like the testosterone served as a, like I said, an energy drink, basically.

Stephanie Winn: Let me just comment while I have the opportunity to speak to the audience about this that I want listeners to remember the reverse is also true. So when you talk about how testosterone increased your motivation and energy levels, I talked to so many parents of trans-identified males that are taking testosterone and androgen blockers like spironolactone, for instance, And, or estrogen and progesterone, typically you do need the testosterone, need in quotes, need the testosterone blocker for progesterone and estrogen to have much of an effect in males because testosterone itself is such a powerful hormone. You know, I talk to so many of these parents who are worried about their sons and don't necessarily know that the problems you're seeing with motivation can be directly related to that drug use. Like your son is blocking his body's production of a hormone that plays such a crucial role in motivation and energy levels for young men. So just something important to keep in mind when you hear a woman's story like Gina, and she's telling you how much testosterone influenced her drive, that tells us something about testosterone. Please continue.

Gina: That brings up a memory, a moment. I've done hot yoga. I was a hot yoga instructor also, but this was before. No, I was a hot yoga, anyway, instructor. I know. I've worn so many different hats in my life, Stephanie. It's insane. You would think that practicing yoga all those years, I'd be in touch with my body. No, you would think you would think but I remember the day this is a I don't know a few months after taking testosterone. I remember doing standing head to knee pose where you're standing and it's in front of a mirror, this hot yoga studio and where you're standing on one leg and you you lift up the other leg and you lean forward and you've got hold of your underneath your foot like a stirrup like this and you're leaning forward. I remember looking at myself and feeling so invigorated and feeling like a new person so to speak it was this new persona that I connected with in the mirror and the energy wow this is energy like that so but guess what towards the end I don't know towards the last few years I remember actually the actual drop in energy. I used to walk for three miles a day. It was at 1.5 to 2 miles where I just would feel an immediate drop of energy and I thought what the heck's going on? I don't know which factor overpowers the other factors because I found out that I had sleep apnea later on so I don't know if it was partially that or my the testosterone, the magic drug wasn't working as much anymore, I don't know. But I took notice of that. But in any case, I was producing this art and I wanted to learn how to market my art and I enrolled in a Oh no, I skipped over a few other flag posts. The times when I would pretend to be my daughter's father. For example, we'd be in a public place and she'd call me dad because I asked her to and she agreed to it and it felt horrible. But I had to deny it. I didn't feel right. I thought, well, over time it'll feel okay, right? And I could tell she was uncomfortable with it. I remember going into the men's room one time on campus, and she was waiting for me outside the men's room. And she said, dad. And when I heard her say dad, I just like, hmm, something's not right here. But I couldn't. And that was filed away, right? And these moments, whenever she would call me dad and I'd say I was her dad, it was a sense of loss. And I had already started to grieve this loss, this loss of a mother-daughter relationship. It was something that I had started journaling about too, because it's real. It was denial of something real, a real loss. And I forgot where I was going with that.

Stephanie Winn: May I add that it was lost? Please. I mean, you're probably empathetically tuning in to the fact that this is causing loss for her. And I think also that loss was cluing you into the fact that you were losing part of your real identity. That's the phrase that just keeps coming back, right? Your real identity, the thing that was right under your nose, the thing that you were searching for. Like being your daughter's mother, that was a real part of who you were.

Gina: Mm-hmm. Thank you because you made me remember something else, the surgeries. Before the hysterectomy, yeah. The double mastectomy, not so much. I want to skip to the full hysterectomy that I had. And the reason I had the full hysterectomy was so I would never have to set foot in a woman's clinic again. And I remember lying on the floor in this very room, the same room that I decided to transition, lying on my back and feeling my body was talking to me, feeling the loss before the surgery, feeling the loss like my motherhood and my woman who was being ripped out of me. This is where I birthed my daughter. I birthed my daughter from this part of my body and I was feeling it, but I was in so much denial, Stephanie. And so the next day was a surgery. It was the worst experience. I was, and I'd been through a lot of surgeries. I'm a burn survivor. Like I said, the double mastectomy, it was like euphoric, a false euphoria, of course, but there was something about this hysterectomy. And the experience of the surgery itself was symbolic of what was going on on a deeper level because I got dropped off by a friend and they tried to take my blood. She couldn't get it. She couldn't get it. All my veins had frozen. And I knew the more she tried that she wouldn't because I'd been through that before. And I almost at that certain point said, okay, let's just postpone this. And then they tried to get the anesthesiologist to get blood. They tried to get another nurse and another nurse and another nurse until finally they used a children's mask, laughing gas, what they use for children when they do surgery on children. So they wheeled me into the operating room and I looked at the surgeon. I said, you know, we can just postpone this or something. It reminds me, it's reminiscent of the time when I asked my psychologist, do you think I'm trans? Do you think I'm trans? I opened the window for her asking her, do you think I'm trans? But the window was closed because she nodded yes. And this window was closed as well with the surgeon saying, well, you know, it's okay. Because I said, I know I'm keeping time from the other people who are going to get their surgeries. And she goes, it's okay. So put the laughing gas on there. This is a whole other event. I don't want to take too much time on it, but it's so symbolic. I have to say it. I heard the anesthesiologist say something about the scars on my arm and trying to get the blood and I sat up, I sat up and said, don't you ever say the word scar. I don't know where that came from, Stephanie. It's like I sat up off the operating table and said, woo, and it made such an impression.

Stephanie Winn: You were on laughing gas?

Gina: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It is just about to take effect until I sat up and interrupted it to tell her. They hadn't started the surgery yet, obviously. It was before the laughing gas took effect. So I kept taking the mask off. I kept having to take the mask off. And so much so that a few days later, the anesthesiologist called me, she called me personally. She said, you know, next time you have a surgery, you might wanna beforehand have them give you some kind of sedative or something, you know. But that was an unforgettable experience, unforgettable. It was nightmarish, nightmarish. They did it, she did it, full hysterectomy. I left the next day, I left that day actually, it was an outpatient surgery. And since then, to this day, Stephanie, to this day, That's where I feel the sadness, deep in there. I feel it. And so anyway, fast forward to when I had made all this art and I wanted to learn to market my art and I joined this online program, business program for artists. And part of the program was doing soul searching and finding out your mission in life. So when I thought I found my mission in life, then we made videos of ourselves sharing our mission. And every time I saw the videos that I made of myself sharing my mission, something was off. It wasn't the usual, you know, my hair is off, I look horrible, I sound horrible, all that stuff. Something deeper was off. And then I had something clicked. I had this awakening of sorts. I realized I was serving the wrong mission. that mission in life, it was all-consuming to be a man, to have people see me as a man. And in that very moment was when I turned off the camera and just, I felt like I'd shed that mission. I'd shed that identity. And I accepted my womanhood, full stop, accepted it. I've been in radical acceptance since of my womanhood.

Stephanie Winn: Wow, just all in that one moment.

Gina: that one moment, this I was in Germany, I saw this in Germany, I ordered it from Amazon, because this is me, I'm showing a statue of what I perceive to be a woman, she's hollow inside, that's me, because I don't have a uterus and I don't have my breasts, but I'm still a woman, that's how I see myself, ironically and I didn't realize how to the depth of what I had done and the toll that the 13 years would take on me. until these, you know, these past few years going through these past few years, I, I thought, Okay, we got to catch up, we got to catch up, you know, on those 13 years, right, I pulled up my research from when I got my degree, and I presented in Germany, I pulled out some, some finding, you know, and it's linguistic. So it's, it's something you can, it's not in the sciences, presented in Germany, I, I, I, it's, it was like manic. I, I, I wanted to do all this stuff and I started all these things. I became a paralegal online through Boston University because I just love the law, you know, and so I was doing these things, but then slowly, slowly I, I, I started slowing down and the reality started hitting me. So, and so I, I've slowed way down and started to feel my feelings around this and I've been having these realizations since then. Like I'll be doing yoga and I discovered my leg yesterday. I was looking at my leg and I just burst into tears because I recognize it as a female leg. Or I'll look at my hand. I feel like a newborn. You know how newborns look at their, it's like they discover their fingers. They look at them, whoa. It's like being on a LSD trip. Whoa, look at my fingers, look at my hands. I've been doing this and loving my short fingers, my short stuff, because it's a woman's hand. Loving the fact that I'm short. recognizing it and feeling tremendous sadness simultaneously. It's crazy, Stephanie, it's one hell of a ride, one hell of a ride. But I also want to say that the moment that I told my daughter that I made the decision to detransition, and she was the last one because she's so hard to get a hold of because she's so busy with her six kids, that I told basically everybody else except for her when I told her, I had her on FaceTime. And she thought I was joking at first. She didn't believe me at first. And when she realized I was telling the truth, I saw her eyes start to well up. And I knew she didn't have to say that she got her mom back. She didn't have to say it.

Stephanie Winn: Wow. How's your relationship with your daughter today?

Gina: Well, I don't get to see her. I mean, I don't get to see her often because she's in another state. But I feel that it's being restored. I feel she's she i feel when she calls me mom or she says mama it's uh it's a different experience now i know that she's she's doing it um it's hard to explain and put words to It's a restorative thing, that's all I can say. And I can't 100% say that we're starting off, that we're starting where we left off because I know last time I visited her, I sensed that she wanted, I think there's a part of her, and she should really speak for herself, but I think there's a part of her that wants to see the old me and with the breasts and the hips and stuff like that. So I'm imagining she's suffered a loss like I have. And it's been my intention to move out there to be close to the grandkids. And I imagine there might be a better opportunity for us to talk about that stuff, you know?

Stephanie Winn: I was just wondering about that. I mean, with six grandchildren, is there anything stopping you from going and moving to be closer to them so you can be in their lives?

Gina: I've had so much on my plate, just healing and recovering. I'm working on getting my own house in order, so to speak. I'm back on the mood stabilizer. I actually was off of the mood stabilizer for a long time. I've had, I hit a real low, Stephanie. It's been, it's been like this. And since I've started to transition, I feel like I'm just now starting to even out.

Stephanie Winn: Yeah, well, you never told me what you do professionally, and I don't know if that's something you want to share here or not.

Gina: I've done many things. The last thing I did was just was a yoga teacher. I left academia. I could have been a tenured professor by now, but I left academia and started working at a thrift store. That was my transition. That was the beginning of my transition. It was a romantic idea, right, to work at a thrift store. I'm just kidding.

Stephanie Winn: Right, you did mention the yoga instruction, but you also mentioned a PhD. So it sounds like you've been all over the place.

Gina: I've been all over the place. That's very well said, Stephanie. And I'd love to practice law in a capacity of as a paralegal, especially if I can help out in cases involving detransitioners. That would be awesome. I would love to do that.

Stephanie Winn: That would be amazing. Have you reached out to any law firms that are trying to help detransitioners?

Gina: I intend to. One of them is in Texas. I was hoping they would be in the state where my daughter lives, but no such luck yet that I know of. And I know there's one in San Francisco, a particular attorney in San Francisco who I know has been working on cases. And I thought maybe offering my services to her just to start right now. We'll see. Like I said, I haven't felt quite ready. Just focusing on getting emotionally and mentally stable.

Stephanie Winn: Well, that's understandable. But I think part of how we create stability is through our external connections as well, the ways that we spend our time and who we spend it with. So I hope that you're able to spend more time with your grandkids and that you're able to be that stable, loving grandmother for them.

Gina: I hope so too, thank you. I intend to be.

Stephanie Winn: All right, well, I think that's a good place to wrap things up.

Gina: I agree.

Stephanie Winn: You know, it feels a little out of place to do the usual, where can people find you? But I do have to ask where can people find you? Do you have a social media presence, a blog? It looks like you have a sub stack.

Gina: I have a sub stack. It's a baby. I call it a baby sub stack because I just started recently. And I have Instagram where all my art is.

Stephanie Winn: And I have those links right in front of me, so they will go into the show notes. Gina, I'm so glad you reached out. Thanks so much for sharing your story.

Gina: Thank you for having me, Stephanie.

Stephanie Winn: Thank you for listening to, You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist. If you enjoyed this episode, kindly take a moment to rate, review, share, or comment on it using your platform of choice. And of course, please remember, podcasts are not therapy, and I'm not your therapist. Special thanks to Joey Pecoraro for this awesome theme song, Half Awake, and to Pods by Nick for production. For help navigating the impact of the gender craze on your family, be sure to check out my program for parents, ROGD Repair. Any resource you heard mentioned on this show, plus how to get in touch with me, can all be found in the notes and links below. Rain or shine, I hope you will step outside to breathe the air today. In the words of Max Ehrman, with all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world.