You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist

Swell AI Transcript: 163. Samantha DeLoach.mp3
Samantha DeLoach:
There's medical consequences to your body that could definitely happen with any of these procedures. And any time you mess with female reproduction, it's so fragile. You never know what long-term consequences it could have. You could damage your organs. You can struggle with infertility for the rest of your life because of these procedures. You can mess with your hormones. You could be super emotional. It could go into depression. I could go on and on and on about, like, the risks for any of this. on top of medically, which again, they won't tell you, is the emotional tolls.

Stephanie Winn: You must be some kind of therapist. Today, my guest is Samantha Deloach. She is a mother, a writer, an advocate living in Florida. She's a social media consultant for Live Action and Then Before Us, which you may remember as the organization founded by a previous guest of this podcast, Katie Faust. Samantha recently published an article in Evie magazine called They Told Us Motherhood Could Wait, then sold it back to us at $12,000 a round. Today we're going to talk about the reproductive industry, egg harvesting, IVF, and other issues in bioethics affecting women and children and family planning. Samantha, welcome. Hi, thank you so much for having me on. I'm so excited. Yeah, good to have you here. I've been following your work on X for a little while now. And as I was saying before we started recording, your article in Evie magazine struck a chord for me because it reminded me of being back in college and learning for the first time that some of my peers and classmates were tempted and some of them actually followed through with this idea of selling their eggs and in the article you really kind of put us back in that mindset of how much money that is when you're young and broke and trying to get a college education and you know, at that age, how a woman doesn't necessarily have a lot of perspective on how she's going to feel about these issues later in life. So I think you really kind of highlighted an aspect of the reproductive justice issue that we haven't really looked at on this podcast before, the egg harvesting side of things. We've looked a little bit about, you know, IVF and obviously what the gender butchery industry is doing to young people's fertility. But let's sort of start there. So what inspired you to write this article?

Samantha DeLoach: You know, a lot of it came from a personal experience. When I was in college, I was super broke. I was living in an apartment. I could barely make rent. I was calling a lot of my companies, the phone company, and I'm asking them, like, what's your late policy and how late can I pay this bill? Because I was not making very good money at the time. Um, and I just remember seeing like a little pamphlet at, you know, one of the bulletin boards on campus while I was walking from one class to another. Um, and I can't remember the exact amount, but it was probably like $8,000 if you donate your eggs. And so I was like, don't women have like a gajillion eggs? I was like, if I don't need a couple now, it's probably not going to affect me later. I can still have children later. Um, so it was definitely something that just kind of floated through my mind. I took the number and I put it in my pocket. It was something that I was really considering at the time. Then luckily, I ended up getting a good job and didn't really even think about it since then until now. That was about 12, 13 years ago. I think very differently now than I did then. And so I just, it was such a relief thinking, you know, about myself back then thinking, wow, I am so glad I did not make that decision. Because today I have two kids who I just adore. I am obsessed with, I love them. They've impacted my entire life. And the idea that there's a chance that I could have had another kid walking around out there in the world that I would never get to meet, that I would never know about, that my children would never get to meet, even though they're siblings. Like that is just like too much to even think about or grasp. And when you're so young, that's stuff that you never really consider or you think, ah, it wouldn't be that bad. But then when you actually have a baby and you experience that relationship and that connection, it's like, that's actually one of the worst things I think a mother could experience. So, um, and they, they don't tell you, um, I don't know. A lot of people know that when you donate your eggs, they have no responsibility to call you later and say, hey, this did end up being a child or didn't. So your whole life, you're just wondering. And there is always that chance that it did. And so it just inspired me to write about it, because all I see online, scrolling on Instagram and on TikTok are these ads saying like, If you want to make a quick buck, then go ahead and just donate your eggs. It's really easy procedure. It makes really good money. And you can have kids later, so it doesn't affect you. And so I was like, we really need to start getting the message out there that there actually are real consequences for this. And we don't want young women thinking that it's no big deal. So that's kind of what inspired it.

Stephanie Winn: And I think one of the things we'll get into eventually is what those consequences are. But just kind of starting with that initial impression, When I was in college, I also didn't go for that option, and I remember I didn't really have the words or the moral framework at the time to understand why that felt so wrong intuitively. I do now, and I think you and I are on the same page about that. It feels predatory, right, this appealing to these vulnerable, broke young women and you know, that idea of $8,000, $10,000, $12,000, how different that same amount of money looks depending on whether you're 20 or 30 or 40. And taking advantage of that vulnerability, that need, that sort of impulsivity in young women, it feels predatory and it feels like part of a larger picture that sort of chops us into our different components as women, as reproductive beings. Like, it feels like it's all part of the same thing where porn and so-called gender-affirming care and all of these things, they dissect this thing that's meant to be whole, right? Reproductive the reproductive act occurring in a loving context, and break it into its parts. So you have the purely sexual parts without love, and that's where you get porn, and you have the, you know, the people who are traumatized by their sexual experiences, and you tell them, well, you can just get rid of your sexual body parts, and then you won't have any trauma anymore. And then you have this sort of splitting of women in their 20s versus women in their 30s and 40s, where the young woman is separated from the middle-aged woman. The young woman, hey, all you can think about is getting enough money and making sure you don't get pregnant when you're not ready to have a baby. versus where that same woman might end up 10 or 20 years later of, I have plenty of money, but how am I going to get my baby? So it just feels like it's like atomizing us and breaking us into parts. Yeah. And it is.

Samantha DeLoach: I mean, I think a lot of people forget that behind that simple little ad on the bulletin board is an entire billion dollar industry. You know, like these, they have experts, they have people who go in and they look at these like core you know, like audience that they're looking to, to find like these patients. And one of the best people that they can get these eggs from our young fertile women, you know, obviously, they're not going to come knocking at the doors of like 3540 women, you know, 40 year old women, because half of them have children. And, you know, we have less eggs at that age. And so they're going to go for like the most vulnerable fertile women they can find And that's like the peak time where girls I think are like it's the first time you're away from your parents So it's not like you're gonna call your mom. I mean some might and that would be great But most kids don't call their mom saying hey, should I donate my eggs this week? you know, it's like it's not a conversation that a lot of people have with their parents and you're away from your parents and And you're making the least amount of money that you probably are ever going to make at that age. And you are, you're just kind of desperate. And the idea of children is, like you said, it's just like completely different than the idea of children at 30. And even just the idea of like, knowing your body, like, I feel like I really didn't understand what donating my eggs fully entailed until after I had children. Because then you understand, like, that like what the impact of having a child out in the world could mean. Whereas before I had children, you can kind of imagine, you can kind of guess, you know, and like, think, you know, how you might feel towards your child, but until you actually like raise a child or have a child in your life, you really don't understand that, that bond you have. And what it means for like your children to know their siblings and things like that. And so yeah, I mean, it's, it's very intentional. Like you said, very predatorial.

Stephanie Winn: It reminds me of that sort of trope of, let's say, you know, a bargain with the devil or some being with dark intent, let's say, and all it's going to cost you is your firstborn child, right? Like, it's like, well, nobody said that your firstborn child had to be birthed by you. It's still your firstborn child. that someone else out there is birthing, if the birth goes well, which I mean, another thing we might get into is the low success rates of some of these things. And you're also talking about the importance of that genetic connection, which I know Katie Faust also talks about, that the power of your DNA So what are some of the consequences of these practices for for women and children and families?

Samantha DeLoach: I mean, there's there's medical consequences to your body that could definitely happen with any of these procedures, because I know that, like even in the article, I talked about like abortion and freezing your eggs and donating your eggs. And any time you mess with female reproduction, it's so fragile. You never know what long-term consequences it could have. And of course, these industries not going to be doing super long-term studies about the consequences because that literally breaks their bottom line. That would only go against what they're working towards and how they make money. You could damage your organs. You can struggle with infertility for the rest of your life because of these procedures. It could mess with your hormones. You could be super emotional, it could go into depression. I mean, there is just like, you know, like when you take birth control, and you get the box, and they have like that instructional manual that like unfolds into like this giant piece of paper that says all like the risks that could happen. It's, it's the same. I mean, like I could go on and on and on about like the risks for any of this, because you're doing a medical procedure on like the female reproductive organs. And so like, any risk, but then on top of like, just medically, which again, they won't tell you is like you said, like the emotional toll. So, you know, if I'm in my early 20s, and I'm being told like, If you have a kid now, your whole life is going to be ruined and you're never going to get to pursue your career. And so it's best for you to freeze your eggs now, because then later in life, when you want to use them and have children, you will already be established in your career. So it's like this idea that you can have both. and not have to give up on either. But the success rate of unfreezing your eggs and using IVF to bring forth a child is almost zero. It's like, I can't remember the exact stats, like two to 7% or less. So just imagine that toll. they're selling you this dream life that you think you want at this age. And just imagine like you finally work your way up in your career and you're super steady and you're super happy and you're 35 and you're ready to settle down and then you still have to like find your husband. That takes time. And then you have to get to a point where you are engaged, and then you're married, and then you're finally ready to have children. And your body might just be like, you waited too long. I don't know what to tell you. It could work. But like your chances of actually having a baby, especially with unfreezing your eggs, and using IVF and that process are very, very slim. And so there's a high, high probability that you traded having children for your career, which again, they don't tell you that. So it's a really sad thing. You know, I always will say For the most part, women can have it all, but not at the same time. And that's, that's not just about women. Men can't have it all at the same time either. We're human beings. So we're like finite. We only have so much time, energy, money, and like space to do one thing at a time. And so you have to just decide your priorities and what you want more in life. What's the most meaningful thing and. Work on that first and then know that there's time for other things later. you know, for a career, you have your whole life for a full career. You know, there's people who go back to school in their 30s and 40s and, and whenever they want. But when you're talking about young women, you're only fertile for a certain amount of time. And that's just the reality. You know, like we could get upset about it, or we could just accept it and say, that's just how human bodies work. And we could work with it. and have your family and then pursue your career if you want one. It's something I think that a lot of girls don't get told when they're young. You know, a lot of them are sold the idea you can have it all.

Stephanie Winn: I want to get kind of philosophical and existential about some of the things downstream of these technologies. And I realize I probably should have said this at the beginning because this is one of those sensitive subjects that can make people feel really judged. And I mean, It's hard to cover any subjects without some people taking it the wrong way. And look, I personally know and love people who have used reproductive technologies. I'll just say that. But I also see that Issues with identity and belonging can arise in some families where children were conceived by these means. So, for example, I know of a family where they used, I believe in this case, it was a sperm donor. And so married husband and wife, husband had fertility issues, so they used a sperm donor. So the child looks just like mom, but we don't know who the biological father really is. And as a young person, this person is struggling with matters of identity. Who am I? Where do I come from? Now, we all do that in adolescence. That's not unusual. But I can't help but to think about how amplified it must be in the situation where, you know, you're being raised by people you call mom and dad. And you know exactly where you came from in terms of mom, but you look at dad and you don't see a reflection of yourself. So you have these really mixed feelings because there's a part of you that's like, this is my dad. He loves me. He changed my diaper. He plays with me. Right. But there's not that genetic component. And there's this missing piece of like, where did the other half of my DNA come from? What are those person's interests and personality traits and, you know, do I have his nose and, you know, I can't imagine it not leaving some kind of void. And then we have these really destructive ideologies readily available to come in and fill that void. No, absolutely.

Samantha DeLoach: And, you know, again, we're kind of like the wild wild rest of like of IVF industry, we have less like regulations than I think almost any country at this point. And so, even when it comes to something as important as like medical history. they're not even required to keep medical history updated, you know, so like, even if they're questioning something that they're going through medically, they don't have the answers that they deserve to have, because they're supposed to know who their father is, you know, and so on almost every level I can think of, I think it's just a tragedy to I think it's a tragedy anytime. a child is separated from his mother or father. And I think that there always can be beauty that comes out of it, which I think is why adoption has such a beautiful side to it, even though the other side is very sad and there's a lot of trauma that comes into that. But I think when we purposefully do that, that's when it kind of, to me, gets to the point where it's like, as an industry, I think it's an evil thing to do. You know, I understand the motives of people who. want children. I think wanting children is actually like a honorable moral motive to have. I think that, you know, it's a beautiful thing to want to create a family. But I think we need to form a society that is thinking about what's best for the children and putting those like the well-being and the rights of those children above the desires of what we want as adults. So yes, we have that desire for children. But if you really love children, and you really want a family that you take care of, you have to like, already start taking care of them before they're even here. And say like, what would be is it? Is it healthy for children to purposefully be created to be separated from their mother and father? Or should I go out in the world and find a child who that's already happened to them, and they have this void that needs to be filled by somebody like me, who also has a void, who wants to fill a parenthood void, you know? So I think we need to kind of change the way we think about it as a society.

Stephanie Winn: It's really shocking to me that there are so many people who don't seem to grasp that distinction that you just made because it seems so obvious, right? Like adopting an orphan is a wonderful thing to do. A tragedy happened to that child and you are helping out, especially if you have the patience of a saint. and you understand that no matter how well you love that child, no matter how well you take care of them, there will always be that void. If you're going into adoption with the sense that, well, this kid should be happy now that I'm here and I am mom, I am dad. If you can't acknowledge the void, then that kid's gonna wind up with some issues. You have to have the patience of a saint to be able to simultaneously acknowledge the void that you'll never fully be able to fill for them. and really have so much compassion for their pain and do right by that child, right? Like, of course, that's a noble path. And that's a really different path than, as you said, deliberately bringing a child into this world with the intention of separating them from one or more of their biological parents.

Samantha DeLoach: Yeah. And we acknowledge that difference in other areas. So even when you do, like adopt a child through foster care, there's training that has to be done and counseling that has to be done. And they train these adoptive parents and foster parents to understand that a trauma has happened. And in every other situation where a child loses a parent through, you know, death or or desertion, you know, if their parent just leaves them. We as a society acknowledge that a loss has occurred and that, you know, we're supposed to come around that child and do what we can to help them, you know, do as best as they can in life and fill some voids that have happened. But when it comes to the area of like donor conception, which is when like a, you know, donor egg or donor sperm is used when creating a child or when it comes to surrogacy. We're blinded by those things. And we say, well, it's okay if they lose a parent because and it's It's not, you know, it's kind of obvious to people, once you see it, you can't unsee it, where it's like, again, you have these billion dollar industries behind these ideas. And they just pump this information out every way that they can into TV shows and into social media and all these things. And it just changes the mind of society over time. to where we're just blinded by that idea, you know, where so many people will say, you know, surrogacy is okay because the child is still loved by the two people who purchased the baby. They wouldn't use the word purchased, but money was involved there. So, you know, as long as the two people want the child and will love the child, then that's all that matters. And that is only thinking about the perspective of the desires of the adults. You know, as long as those adults desire that child, we're fine with it as a society. But then when you start thinking about it from the perspective of a child and what they've lost and what they deserve and what they have rights to, that's when that whole idea kind of crumbles and it doesn't make sense anymore. But they don't like to acknowledge both sides.

Stephanie Winn: Moving on to the surrogacy side of things, I guess, you know, sort of starting with egg donation. Well, egg donation and egg freezing are both things that young women might do that involve similar technologies at sort of the beginning stage and then downstream of that. Egg donation, you know, you talked about how a woman might freeze her eggs and try to come back to them later and they're really deceived about the potential success rates of those technologies. And then downstream of egg donation, there's either surrogacy or I guess, is there a name for it? It's not a surrogate. It's the mom who wants to have a baby and she gestates the baby in her own womb, but it's with the egg donor's egg. What's that called? Because it's not surrogacy.

Samantha DeLoach: Well, if it's not her own egg, then it is surrogacy. But if it's her own egg, but like somebody else's sperm, like donor sperm, then it would just be like IVF and it would be called like donor conception.

Stephanie Winn: Okay, so it's still called surrogacy.

Samantha DeLoach: Oh, wait, actually, I'm sorry. You're right. You're right. I got that mixed up. Okay, if she's pregnant, you're right. It's not surrogacy. So it's only if she rents like the womb of another woman, that's when it turns into surrogacy. So you're right. It would just be like egg donor conception if she's pregnant, but it's not her egg.

Stephanie Winn: So yes, I got that mixed up. Egg donor conception and all of these rely on IVF. which itself has its own problems, right? So even if we're talking about husband and wife using their own reproductive materials and IVF, still riddled with problems, we may or may not get to that. But so let's talk about, for one, the surrogacy side of things.

Samantha DeLoach: Yeah, so surrogacy is the idea of paying money and renting the womb of another woman because either you don't want to be pregnant or you can't be pregnant on your own. And so you need the body of another woman to carry your child for you. And then at birth, they deliver the child and then you get the child. So that's like the snippet of what surrogacy is. But a lot of people, I would say the people who are against surrogacy would almost call it child trafficking. And it sounds extreme, but when you actually think about like the components that go into this and what happens during this process is you are paying money for a child to, and a lot of the time it's not your egg or your sperm or just one or the other. So like you are paying for somebody else's child for you to keep. So I definitely think it would count to me as child trafficking in the sense that you're paying money to own a child. But I would say with surrogacy, one of the main things that I think a lot of people don't understand and don't think about and don't hear about is the idea of a mother being spliced into three instead of just one. So the three would be a biological mother. So you know, the person who the egg comes from, and then there is this gestational slash birth mother, so who carries the child. And then there's the social mother, the one who raises the child. So when you do surrogacy, the child intentionally loses one or all three of these mothers. So like if there's a gay couple, then they lose all three. They don't have any form of mom. Um, but if you have like a husband and wife and. You know, they had to do donor conception with the egg. So it's not really the mom's biological child, but she still is going to be the one raising it. So they still have a social mom, but they've lost their birth mother and their bio mother. And so it's just this idea again, it's very dystopian where you could just take what is supposed to be one whole woman and divide her up. and say, well, we don't need all three parts of a woman. We just want this part of the woman, or we're just going to pay for that part of the woman. Again, it's all based on the desires of the adults involved in that situation and what they want for their lifestyle instead of what's best for the child and what they deserve and what they have a right to. So it's a sad situation.

Stephanie Winn: That is really sad. And I so at this point I want to name one of the criticisms that my podcast periodically gets. Every now and then someone will say something and you know on like Spotify or Apple or YouTube or something about like you you're too conservative to be a therapist. And, you know, I'm actually pretty moderate, I think, on most things. I think when it comes to like reproductive justice issues, I have arrived at some pretty conservative conclusions. But I want to sort of defend my stance as a mental health professional critiquing these things. And I think, you know, Katie Faust, who you work with closely, has a really similar position. I like the way she articulates it, which is that if you care about social issues, if you care about mental health, you should be concerned with the question of what creates mental health problems and what creates mentally healthy people in contrast. And exploring those issues will inevitably, if you go far enough, lead you to critically examining these issues. Because Childhood is our foundation. It is our psychological foundation in life. And we know a lot about attachment. We know a lot about early childhood development and the importance of those first five or so years of life. Yeah, the importance of all of childhood, but especially early childhood. And we know enough to know that these attachment issues are very real, right? And that the potential relational problems, identity issues, and emotion regulation issues that are downstream of something like dividing a role as important as the role of a mother into these three different people as you said and and splitting that core aspect of a child psychological foundation like of course there's there are going to be huge consequences downstream of that and it's sort of like that saying an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure like the amount of help that's going to be needed if that person with those issues in their psychological foundation wants to get healthy later in life. I'm not saying that I don't believe in resilience and the power of the human spirit and our motivation to be well and heal intergenerational wounds, but if I think what healing might look like for that person who, you know, was deprived of a mother or a father or had those roles split into their component pieces, what healing might look like for them might ultimately lead them to the same conclusions as well. Just as for me, as someone who was deprived of my own father, A lot of my healing came from realizing how significant that father wound was for me. And for me, I found security. I found relational security that gave me a deeper level of emotional stability than I'd ever known. When I found a secure relationship with a man who was already a father, I needed to see that father energy in someone to heal my own father wounds. And granted, our life isn't perfect. You know, I'm helping raise children of divorce. That means that while they have access to both their biological mother and father, they don't get to experience them together and on the same page at the same time. Yeah. That's not my problem as stepmom because I didn't, you know, we didn't meet when he had an affair with me. Like, that's not what happened, right? We met after the divorce. So, you know, the issues between the mother and father in this situation, you know, affect the children and I'm here just doing my best in an imperfect situation. Like so many people are doing their best in imperfect situations, but I'm not gonna pretend that it's every bit as good for the children to have two different households and have time with mom be a separate thing from time with dad. I'm not gonna pretend. that this is a more optimal situation than the ideal of having parents get along and work it out, right? So I just think, you know, from a mental health perspective, if you explore any of these issues fully enough and you wanna get to the bottom of things and you wanna create a healthier society where we have less mental illness, then you have to deal with the attachment wounds. And it will inevitably lead to these conclusions like maybe this is not the way, right? Maybe reproductive technologies that separate sex from love, separate mother into three people, separate mother from father from child, like maybe this splitting of biological reality is also splitting our psychological reality. And then I think another criticism I want to address has to do with a common logical fallacy I hear. And I don't know what it's called. Maybe there's a name for this. If you know the name of this logical fallacy, please leave it in the comments. Or Samantha, tell me if you know. But it's basically this idea that you can't talk about a problem you see in society unless you're willing to provide the solution. So what that criticism might sound like for people like you and me is listeners getting defensive because they're like, well, you know, my husband and I used IVF because we were in our late thirties and that, you know, how would we have had a child otherwise? Are you saying that it's better for our child not to exist? There's always people who kind of make several distortions and say things like that. And I guess what I want to say to them is, actually, I think it's okay to talk about problems without assigning yourself personally the task of figuring out what all of society should do differently. I think part of my motivation to talk about these issues on this podcast is in case this does reach the ears of someone young in a decision-making stage of life who has these things to consider, I want you to have role models like Samantha who have thought about these things very deeply at an early enough age to make decisions that were healthy for their family life. And yes, in the process of saying how we could do better as a society, we are eventually going to, you know, leave some people feeling a little defensive or a little criticized, but it's about what direction we should be, you know, steering this ship in collectively. And I think that lying to people and saying that you can just freeze your eggs and work and save up a bunch of money and then use reproductive technologies that are expensive when you're 40 and it's all good and nothing will go wrong. That is clearly not the way. Sorry, I just had to go on that little.

Samantha DeLoach: I'm glad you did. I'm glad you did because anyone who is, I wouldn't even say anti-IVF, but anybody who even questions IVF, you're going to be met with people. The first criticism you will hear from people is, I had my children through IVF. Are you saying that it's better that they wouldn't exist? And to that, I always say two things can be true at once. The first thing that is true is any time in any situation when a child is conceived and exists and it's a new human being, that child is just as valuable and should be just as loved and protected and have just as many rights as everybody else on this earth. And we should do everything we can as a society to come around that situation and help that child have the best life that that we can. And you know that it can regardless of the situation, even when children are conceived in rape, even when children are conceived in teen pregnancy, when that child exists, we should come around that child and protect them. and do our best as a society to raise them up in the best way we can. So that's the first thing. And then the second thing that also can be true is that not every way of creating a child is a moral way to do that. And so it is not a great thing to have a bunch of teenagers, creating children, we should try to lower those rates when possible, because it's better for fully developed adults to be having children, not teenagers. moral or okay for a rapist to conceive a child, they're rape, obviously. We all disagree with that. But once the child exists, that doesn't mean we're saying that child is worth less than a child that was not conceived in rape. We're saying that child stands on its own and has rights. and it's valuable and as a human being that we should all wrap our arms around. So, you know, anyone who will say like, are you saying my child shouldn't be here? No, I'm glad your child's here. And I will say this as somebody who is against IVF, I'm against IVF because of the children of IVF. So only like I think it's seven to 9% of the children who are created during IVF will ever be birthed and live life. The rest of them are destroyed and killed. So like that's one of the main reasons I'm against IVF is because millions and millions of children are being killed through this process of IVF. And so When you say like you don't care about the child. It's like that's literally one of the only things I care about in this situation Is the child and the rights of the children and the well-being of the children? so like most of them will be destroyed most of them will be killed during this process and then of the ones that Are created and don't die or aren't purposely killed. Um, a lot of them have higher rates of issues, early deliveries, and like issues that they have to live with. So again, if we're talking about a society that puts the rights and well-being of children before the desires of adults, this industry that causes the death of so many children, I think we would abolish it. I just, I think that we wouldn't stand for that to happen. If there is any other situation outside of anything related to like, um, you know, abortion or IVF or things that I think society has gotten so used to at this point that was killing this many millions of children, we would all immediately stand up against it. But for some reason, there's a shield around these things. And I really think the shield comes from. the brainwashing that these industries have worked very, very hard to get society to see and agree with. I talked about it in the article a little bit, but it's everywhere. Once you see it, again, you can't unsee it. I used to watch Grey's Anatomy. No one made fun of me. I know a lot of people watched it, but I definitely stopped watching it because it got insane I mean, I guess it was always insane, but it got way out of hand But like even just like from start to finish they are pro abortion. They are pro IVF They are pro surrogacy and in every like any any episode that they have that talks about these subjects, behind the scenes of that, there's that billion-dollar industry for IVF and the billion-dollar industry for abortion. They have these professionals who it's their entire job to work with the Hollywood industry people and the writers of these shows to make these things look positive and to make these things look empowering and to make these things look like they work because they don't work half the time or more than half the time. and to make these things look like they don't hurt children, you know, but if you actually showed the reality of IVF and abortion and Donating your eggs and trying to use them again later if the reality of that was actually shown in TV shows and on Instagram and on Twitter and all these places then I really think the percentage of people who would be supporting these things would would decrease by If they saw the trauma it caused, the damage it did to women, I think so many people would be against these things, but all we see is the positive side of it, so.

Stephanie Winn: I haven't seen Grey's Anatomy, but I was remembering another show that is actually brilliant at a lot of things, but weird about this issue. Have you seen Crazy Ex-Girlfriend? She's shaking her head no. Um, so Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, I think, is actually a brilliant show. Hear me out, listeners. It's actually brilliant at depicting borderline personality disorder. It's, it really is like, uh, doing, I mean, obviously dramatized, um, some areas a little exaggerated or distorted, but I think it does a brilliant job of giving us a compassionate, but accurate view of the inner world of someone with both a high IQ and borderline personality disorder. And it does this with humor and with a lot of musical numbers. So well done show in a lot of ways. little on the woke side and then but in season 4 spoiler for anyone who's cares about these things I think it's the last season of the show that as as things are moving toward a resolution you know we're all the different Plots are coming together and people are finally getting what they want and things. One of the things that's unfolding is that a middle aged man who's gay, who's one of the sort of main side characters, discovers that he's really wanted a family all along. And he wants a baby. And then we have a young woman. I'm not going to say which character is which here. You just have to watch the show. But we have a young woman who is someone who's kind of apathetic. That's kind of her vibe. Not a very warm, caring person. Is like, sure, I'll have a baby for you. Just it's the weirdest thing, right? This young woman who's been almost kind of like a teenager the whole time, like one of those too cool for school teenagers, suddenly decides, oh, yeah, what's the big deal? Sure, I'll just carry a baby for you. And it's like one of the most unbelievable aspects of the plot. And then and it's like, OK, happy ending like everybody gets what they want. Right. The gay man gets a baby that's carried by the, you know, the woman in her 20s. And and it's supposed to be like one big happy family. And that that was always one of the most kind of unbelievable. Things to me. Anyway, listeners, if you've seen this show, let me know what you thought about that, because I found it pretty hard to believe. And again, just not really thinking about what it's going to be like for that baby. Yeah.

Samantha DeLoach: No, you know, as somebody who I knew even before I have ever been pregnant, that I would be super attached to my baby during pregnancy. I'm just like emotional that way. I just knew I would. I was very excited about having children. And being a pro-life advocate, you obviously know more about how the child develops during pregnancy and like, you know, when they start to look like a baby and like all these things. And so I was really excited about all of that. And for as excited as I was, I truly had no clue what it actually would feel like. And then I have two children now. It is like the craziest experience I it's so hard to even talk about because it's like it's almost hard to put into words what a crazy experience like pregnancy is. But the bond you have growing a child and feeling them kick and like knowing that they can hear your heartbeat and then hearing their heartbeat and and giving birth to a baby. It is a bond that like I just it can't be compared to anything else. And what I what I always say about this, because there definitely are women who have said to me over the years, like I've been a surrogate or I could be a surrogate, like I don't get attached. I don't care. It's not a big deal to me. You know, some women care, some women don't. And I hate that, like nonchalant, like that. We're just all different. And it's like, no. But the thing is, when it comes to the biology of like a woman growing a baby and giving birth, it's not just a preference. There is like an actual need for attachment between the mother and a child, a biological need. So if you would consider yourself, not you, but anyone listening, you know, somebody who, Oh, I could just, I could just be pregnant and then just give birth and not care. That to me is a red flag that there might be some emotional trauma that you might already need to be working through just as a human being. Either you really, really don't understand pregnancy, which I can understand for people who have never been pregnant, but especially if you already have child two or three and you're like, well, now that I have my children, I could be a surrogate. It'd be no big deal. If you have birthed your children and you can just look at pregnancy and say, oh, yeah, I think I could do that. I think I could go through pregnancy, deliver a child and hand it over to a stranger immediately. You have something you need to be internally working through, and that's not an insult. I'm not trying to say something, you know, you're the worst person ever. I'm saying something is biologically off. with hormones or with some kind of trauma that needs to be worked through, because there is a natural biological need for that connection. And if you feel like you don't even have that connection with your children or need a connection with your children, something's off. And I think it's something women need to consider when self-reflecting.

Stephanie Winn: That's how I look at these kind of things too. And what's interesting is that the narrative on the other, you know, I hate to make this a political issue, but it often is along such political lines, right? Like the sort of common leftist narrative is anything we say is trauma counts as trauma, right? Like, you know, mom didn't give me the extra cookie I wanted when I was five. That's a capital T trauma. And I've been wronged and I deserve to go no contact with her now. Like, like the definition of trauma is so arbitrary and subjective. But when it comes to the perspective of someone like you or me daring to have the opinion that if you claim to be asexual, for instance, Maybe that's not necessarily a valid identity. Maybe that's stemming from trauma or something being biologically off with your body. Or if you claim to not have an emotional attachment to a baby that you conceived and gestated, again, maybe there's something off there. It's like when we dare to say these things based on an abundance of evidence of what it is to be human and how human beings operate, then that's considered some biased form of bigotry. Yeah.

Samantha DeLoach: Yeah, no. And again, it's frustrating because not only are you acting like it's just a different personality trait, and so it can't get backlash, and nobody can say anything against you for saying something like that, but also it's so selfish and so the universe just revolves around you because even if you could do that, which again, maybe you could, but I'm saying that that's an issue, not, not your personality. I don't think that's healthy for you to do. It's not only about you, it's also about your child and your child isn't like you. Your child doesn't have years of trauma saying, I don't need my mom or I don't need my child. Your child is saying, I need my mom. My mom's the only person I've ever known in this entire world for the first nine months of my life. The only person I want in the world when I am delivered is my mom. That's who I need to be next to. Like we actually, again, we already know this as a society, which is why it's so frustrating. Like that's the, the baby being put on the mother is because immediately that lowers the cortisol levels of the child and calms the child immediately. How many videos do we have to see of like the cutest things ever where like, there's like a C section and then immediately the baby's crying. And then when they put the baby on the mother, it just calms down immediately. You know, I'm not saying that's every case, but it's just this idea that like children When you put that baby on the mom, it's not because you're trying to form a bond, it's because there already is a bond between the mother and the child. So even if you're the mom and you're saying, I feel nothing. Okay, well, your child feels everything in that moment, you know, and so That's why we can't always base things off of what we want, what we feel, our desires. We have to think past ourselves as individuals, but also as a society. That's such a valid point. Yeah. Things that people don't like to hear, but I just think it's super important because before I had children, again, I never had the personality of like, oh, I could definitely be a surrogate. I could understand people who have not had children thinking that way, because you truly don't. You can't feel the hormones before you have the hormones. You can't feel the bond before you have the bond. You can guess and you could be right, but you could also totally misunderstand things if you haven't been through it.

Stephanie Winn: Many of you listening to this show are concerned about an adolescent or young adult you care about who's caught up in the gender insanity and therefore at risk of medical self-destruction. I developed ROGD Repair as a resource for parents just like you. It's a self-paced online course and community that will teach you the psychology concept and communication tools the families I've consulted with have found most helpful in understanding and getting through to their children, even when they're adults. Visit ROGDRepair.com to learn more about the program and use promo code SUMTHERAPIST2025 at checkout to take 50% off your first month. That's ROGDRepair.com. So when it comes to all of these reproductive technologies, um, let's, let's go over and maybe we should have led with this. I don't know. I do things out of order. I assume that most people know like the basics of what these things entail. But earlier when I was asking you about some of the damages, you, you went through kind of a quick list of, you know, you mentioned like the side effects that come with hormonal birth control, by the way, which, I I'm one of these like I hate hormonal birth control. I know there are people who there are there there are women who will defend this including women I consider friends and who have had on this podcast and they'll say you know birth controls would allow me to have my successful career where I'm doing a lot of good for the world and then choose to have children at the right time for me and it's like okay good for you. But I mean the fact that it's handed out so readily to girls at such a young age based on menstrual problems or even acne, when it has such a profound effect on our body chemistry, including mate choice, I mean, it is widely understood at this point that women's attraction to men changes when they go off of birth control. How many divorces are downstream of that? She was on birth control, and she was on the birth control up until they decided to have their first child, and then they had their second child, and by the time baby number two was a few years old, she's disgusted by him. I mean, there are just so many things we don't talk about enough when it comes to the problems of birth control, and I'm thankful in this regard that I'm such a sensitive person, that when I first tried birth control, I was immediately an emotional wreck because of the hormones. I was crying and panicking constantly. And then I was like, wait a minute, I think I'm poisoning myself. So to me, the idea, again, sort of like that desensitization thing you were talking about a few minutes ago, the idea that there are women who don't feel that way, I'm always a little suspect. I'm like, oh, I felt it. But gosh, I can't even remember why I started talking about hormonal birth control. Oh, I was saying that you were listing, you were saying that, and maybe this needs to be fleshed out a little bit because they pump women full of hormones to harvest the eggs, right? Can you explain that part? Like what actually happens medically during that stage of egg harvesting?

Samantha DeLoach: Yes, yes. Well, first I wanted to quickly talk about like, so one thing we also know now, which One thing we know now about birth control is usually birth control also affects infertility. So how convenient for this industry who is pumping young 15, 16-year-olds full of birth control for any issue that they have, acne, anything's off, late period, whatever it might be, birth control is always the first solution. And then they're on it for up until they're, you know, through college, because they're like, you still need a way, you still need a way. And so by the time these girls graduate college, meet the man of their dreams and decide that they want children, they've been on birth control for 10, 15 years. And then they just tried to pop off birth control, and then have a child. And of course, there's issues, it doesn't work, because your body was just told for 15 years, we don't want children, your body literally being told, do not give me children. That's not what we want right now. And so they have issues having children. And then conveniently have to go back to the same industry and say, okay, I really want children, but my body's not letting me have children. Can you help me figure this out? And the industry, instead of saying, yeah, let's actually look at these underlying issues. They say, let's actually just work around it. we don't really need to figure out what the diagnosis is. We'll just work around it and we'll just give you children through IVF. And we're going to, these hormones are very expensive. So the hormones is, I don't know if I can even explain it the best. I would hate to like mess it up, but I would basically, basically it just tells your body to produce more eggs. So that way there's higher chances of you having more eggs. So they can, it depends on, there's different ways to, go through that industry. So it's not always IVF. Sometimes there's like IUIs and different things like that. There's different processes. But a lot of women turn straight to IVF because honestly, I think it's just that's where they're counseled to go. I think that's where they make the most money. So I think a lot of them are just like, oh, this is the best route for you. But you could also like basically have the sperm injected into you directly and have that child a little bit more naturally for your body to work. But if there's any issues at all with the sperm or if they think it just might be easier to use IVF, they'll go straight to IVF. Sorry, I feel like I'm rambling now, so I'm trying to wrap my mind around it.

Stephanie Winn: No, so you're talking about, I mean, the difference between intrauterine… I forget what the I part stands for. I mean, okay, look, listeners, neither of us is scientists. We're not doctors, okay? We're just people with opinions on things who have done a little research. Okay, but IVF, I don't know what the chemical they pump women full of is there, but it speeds up the ripening of eggs, right? Because normally we release approximately one per month during ovulation, so it artificially ramps that up where all these sort of unripe eggs, so to speak. are at once.

Samantha DeLoach: They want the women to produce as many eggs as possible. And then they do an egg retrieval. So then they will go in, they will take out as many eggs as they can. And then they will also collect sperm from the partner or from a donor. And then they basically just, it depends on like the clinic. So the goal of a lot of IVF clinics is to give you as much chance as possible of creating a live child, a live birth. And so some parents will want that limited because they're like, I don't want you to create 20 embryos because I'm not going to use 20 embryos. So they'll kind of like work with their clinic and say, can you only try to make five or three or whatever it is? But a lot of clinics have like policies or they'll also counsel women into trying to do as many as possible because that helps their rates. Because if you only try for three, the chances of three being created or even one being created are so low. that it looks bad on the clinic because then it's like, oh, your rates of creating embryos are so low that I don't even want to hire you. But if they try and they actually create 13 or 20 embryos, then the rate of success for the child to actually be born at that point is way higher. So they have better rates. And so yeah, they collect both and then they create it in a Petri dish. Um, and then basically they. It's very subjective, but they look at all of the embryos that are created. So say 10 are created. Um, they put them under a microscope and they look at them and then they give them each a grade based on how good or healthy they look. So again, it's very subjective because even ones that are given a D grade and don't look that great, they could still produce a live healthy baby. and have no issues. And even ones that are given an A grade could end in a miscarriage, you know, so you never really know, you're really just guessing. And basically, they put them in an order, and then you decide how many you want to put inside of you. So you can you can start with two, and then you could end up with twins, or you know, you only one might implant and the other one might not implant. And then you would only have one baby. And so it kind of just depends on like, you have to work with your clinic. But again, the clinics really do push for the more the merrier, because to them, they don't actually value the human life that's being created or the embryo that's being created. So to them, it's like, well, If you end up with 20, then you know you're probably going to get a live birth. But if you only try for three and none of them work, then you're going to have to do this process all over again. And many women do have to do the process like two or three times. So the chances of any of those children who are created actually being born and living life is it's like 7% to 9% of those children who are created will survive it. So the rest will be you know, will die naturally or will be killed. So it's not very high rates, unfortunately.

Stephanie Winn: We've talked about the splitting and atomization element of all of this in a few different ways. And another one that strikes me as I grapple with sort of the pro-life stance on things, which I've moved increasingly toward over the last few years. I wouldn't declare myself to be pro-life, but I don't feel like I'm pro-choice either at this point. I feel like I'm like right there on the fence. And I really appreciate hearing from women like you with these types of opinions. I think it's a valuable perspective. And something I grapple with there is like the splitting that happens in your psyche as a woman or as an expecting father, for instance, where you're thinking about that one life form that's been created as this is my baby and it's precious and I'm going to attach to it. And then you're thinking of the other ones as inhuman and unworthy and you know that psychological splitting because of how you want to subjectively define things just that feels problematic to me somehow. It just feels like another form of atomization. But then tell us from there, so from there, I mean, we already know that there's reason to be suspicious about not letting natural selection do its thing because you're looking at what might not be the strongest sperm or eggs, you know, having the success of a natural conception. So, and then you also talked about higher rates of things like miscarriage and stillbirth downstream of these.

Samantha DeLoach: Yeah, yeah. I mean, higher risk of Down syndrome, higher risk of like, just a lot of like, any issue happening in general is usually a higher risk during IVF. Again, I think it's just because when you mess with nature, like you just never know the human body really is so fragile in a lot of ways, especially the female reproductive system. And so like, when you mess with hormones, and when you when you mess with like your womb, and like the egg and the sperm, and like, you just never know what could go wrong. And so like the rates are definitely worse with IVF, especially early term delivery, those rates are higher as well. And that has a array of outcomes, unfortunately. But I did want to just like what you said, it is such a weird, you know, mind separation, like you said, viewing the embryo. So like, if you have six embryos, but you only want three children, and so you say, well, these are the best graded ones, and these are the worst graded ones. So these are going to be my children, and these are not a lot of them. So you have three choices. So either you can, you freeze them, you can use them, or you can donate them to science, or you could, well, I guess, other than use them, you have three choices, you can donate them to science, you can freeze them, or you can just destroy them. And when you donate them to science, really, that means destroy because none of them come to life at that point, like they get used for experiments, and then they are killed during that process. So the only way to like, keep them alive is by freezing them. And there are already like I think it's 1.5 million embryos on ice right now, frozen, just in the US. And so it is a weird mind thing to say, I valued this one, and I decided to give this one the chance at life. But the other one who was like, in the same exact stage, I'm just going to freeze and not care about or not think about. And I think again, a lot of women, they're not told these things, but you don't usually think the way you think forever. Your mind evolves and it changes over time and you feel different things about different ways. So I actually have a friend who did IVF. And she shared this publicly so she wouldn't mind me saying it. I'm not gonna say who she is obviously, but She did IVF and she has a lot of regrets with it because she actually did end up with additional embryos who are still on ice right now, but they are way past this point where like she she didn't really think much with it or grapple much with it for a few years after they had their children. But now like time has passed, and they're still paying money to these IVF clinics. Again, another way they make money is by saying, you still have children on ice. And you have two options, you can keep paying us money every month to keep them alive and an option, or you don't be killed. So like so many people don't realize how emotional of a decision that is. even if you know you're done family planning, and you're like, I only wanted three kids, I can only afford three kids. If they are calling you saying, Hey, you still have three eggs on ice, there's two little girls, and there's one little boy, we already know the gender. And they're just sitting there on ice. And so like, do you want us to go ahead and throw them out? Like most parents, it's like that's still even if you don't consider that a child You just know it's something, you know, it's not nothing. It's literally a physical something that you've been protecting already. And now the idea that you have to decide to get rid of it or throw it out or kill it. Um, it's a very emotional decision. So my friend who went through that, it's still on ice, but her husband's like, I don't, she's, she's, I think about 45 years old. So she was like, I can't get pregnant. I don't want any more children. I can't handle any more children. So I don't want to use a surrogate to have her get pregnant and bring them to life. And she's like, but I literally cannot process the idea of giving them up for adoption, which is also an option for women who can't create embryos but want to carry a pregnancy. You can adopt other people's unused embryos. And you can basically, it's not surrogacy, it's adopting. So it would be your child, even though it's not biologically yours. Isn't that interesting? And so she's like, I can't grapple with the idea of my children who are fully my biologically and fully my husband's biologically and my children's biological sisters and brothers, just giving them up, giving them to somebody else to raise. They'll be walking around this earth and I won't be able to meet them or see them or raise them or love them. And so she really is just stuck in this middle place where there's just no peace. You know, she feels like no matter what she does, it's wrong. And so many people are in that spot right now. Again, 1.5 million embryos just sitting on ice because people don't know what to do with them. So. It's a really tragic thing that no one warns them about ahead of time.

Stephanie Winn: Just there's so much we don't know about the unintended consequences and the things downstream. It's sort of a Chesterton's fence issue. Like, yes, technically, these things can be kept alive or viable or whatever the technical term is for years on ice. But I guess there's just so much we don't know. Not that I've studied what we know and don't know, but I have to wonder about the things we can't know. Yeah. About the sort of, you know, brave new world epics of things like, because there are stories of like, you know, children that were conceived at a much earlier point in time. And then You know, it's like the time that they were actually born was years later. And like, I don't know, spiritually, I wonder.

Samantha DeLoach: Well, there was this girl that went viral on TikTok because she was an IVF baby. And she just found out about it later in life. She was about like, I think almost 30. And she asked her mom about like IVF or something. And her mom finally told her because she didn't think it would be a big deal. Like to her, she never even thought to tell her daughter. And a lot of people who can see children, like through donor conception or IVF, they're actually told like, you don't have to tell your kid, it won't affect them at all, which is insane, because it absolutely affects them. And they, there's cases where children will like grow up feeling off. or different, and they don't know why. And then they talk to their parents and find out later, it's like, Oh, that's not my real dad. And like, again, their parents just never thought to tell them or they were told not to tell them they're like, well, if they just grow up thinking that this is biologically their, their parents, they'll they'll be better off than if they know that their dad is out there somewhere, and they'll never get to meet him. So again, we had really bad counseling when when this all first came about, but I mean, it's not gotten much better, to be honest. But I think there's more out there right now. But there's a girl on on tic tac that went viral because her mom told her late in life that she was an IVF baby. And she asked her if there was like any additional embryos and she found out that she had like siblings still there sitting on ice that her parents have been paying for for the past 30 years. And she grappled with that so much. She was like, I was losing sleep over it. I was thinking a lot about it. And then she went on a tick tock. And she was like, just kind of thinking out loud and shared a tick tock and was like, considering the idea of asking her parents if she could implant her brother or sister into her and bring them about into this life. So they would be created the same day and time as her, but they would be 30 years younger because like the time it was just, it's so warped and it's like, it's like this idea and like, and some people were saying like, is that incest? Because it's like, you're like, you're their sibling and, but you're going to be biologically growing them. Like, is there going to be, biological issues like with that happening, or like there's just so many things like you said it's so dystopian. And there's so much we don't know, but the frustrating thing is I feel like we know enough. I feel like we know enough to know that like, like we should already have been like regulating this or banning this or stopping this because so many things have already come from it that are so bad. Again, the amount of deaths that have happened because of this, the amount of like, you know, issues with the mom issues with the baby, like it's just not a healthy thing to me happening. But again, We're not going to stop it if these industries are still the main voices in these conversations because they're the ones who have been profiting off of this since the beginning and they don't care. They only care about their bottom line. It's just a hard thing to put the brakes on.

Stephanie Winn: I think children pick up on more than you want them to sometimes as a parent. I knew someone who had a twin that was lost in the womb. So there was a miscarriage of the twin and his mom never told him this. But as a small child, he would repeatedly ask, where's my brother? Until his mom finally told him. I know someone else who was adopted at birth and claims to remember that, claims to have her very first memory of life being pulled away from her mother. So, yeah, it's comforting. It's a comforting cope, as they say, for adults to kind of pick and choose what children remember and internalize and are psychologically affected by. But we don't actually get to choose those things. We don't get to control the narrative of what should and shouldn't matter. And I want to talk about where I think all of this is going. And you and I chatted a little bit before we started recording about this about genetic engineering, right? Because you're talking about, for instance, with IVF, they're grading the babies, and I'm not sure how much of how much genetic information they have at that stage about the you know, the qualities of every single potential child. But it seems like if there are all these problems with IVF that are well established, but sort of glossed over in the phase of selling these technologies to families, you know, if, for example, there's this really huge difference between the narrative that women are sold early in life of you can just freeze your eggs, have a career, get financially stable, and then have children whenever you're ready. You could be 40, it doesn't matter. Women are sold that narrative, the reality of, as you were saying, the success rate of egg freezing is a whole nother matter, plus the cost of things like IVF and surrogacy, what to speak of the emotional cost. But given how fraught with problems. All of these things really are. Once a family is actually invested, once, you know, you're 40 years old, you're $20,000 in, now you're really invested. You are really determined to have that child, whatever the cost. So we have sort of a sunk cost issue going on here. Now, at this point, you find out that the things you were told when you were 25, you know, aren't exactly the full story. Sorry, I'm kind of rambling, but where I'm trying to go here is that I feel like all of this is the perfect setup for selling people the next solution, which is genetically engineering their children. And when I mentioned this to you before you started recording, you said that's already happening. So what is the status of genetically engineering children around the world right now?

Samantha DeLoach: So basically, we're at this point where my limited understanding is that already we're like, we've already crossed so many lines, and it's so unethical. But like, A lot of people think, for example, if there's a gay couple and they really want a baby, there's literal catalogs that are created of what you want your baby, what color, what race, what hair color you want them to have, eye color, things like that, that you can try to select and pick. What a lot of people confuse about that is they think, oh, so then they go in and they mess with their DNA, and then they create the perfect baby, and that's already weird and wrong, and then the baby's created. But that's actually not what happens. They actually create as many embryos as they can, and then they test those embryos and find the one that fits the description that the person's wanting and kill all the rest of them. So it's not that you're actually like actually genetically engineering them in a lot of ways. In some ways you are because you're picking like the father and you're picking the mother and you're going through these catalogs of like what their parents can look like. But when it actually comes to creating the child, they're not actually trying to, they can't yet, not that they couldn't in the future, mess with the DNA to make it what you want. So they just make as many as possible and then like pick the closest as possible to what you want. And so like, again, large scale of just extra children being created and then just thrown out, destroyed.

Stephanie Winn: So let's really kind of hone in on some details here. So blue eyes and red hair are both recessive gene traits. So let's say that you have a father and mother who are Irish, and that's their heritage, and they really want a child with blue eyes and red hair. And they're using donor reproductive material, and they're looking through these catalogs for people who also have blue eyes and red hair. But it's not that simple. You can't just pick people with blue eyes and red hair and know that the child will come out that way, because it's a recessive gene. So it's kind of a luck of the draw issue. At the point where they're looking at the embryos, are they able to gather enough genetic information from those embryos to be like, ah, this one has the recessive genes, this one has blue eyes and red hair? I don't know how detailed they can

Samantha DeLoach: When it comes to hair and eye color, I know that gender is definitely something that they can know and they also can know if there's going to be certain birth defects or if there's going to be like Down syndrome, things like that. So I know that eugenics is being used in those cases because any like Down syndrome babies, immediately thrown out. They are like, No, we don't want those because even the IVF clinic, even if you're like, say you are 45, this is your last round, you've already done IVF, like four times, and you had zero luck. And then you finally have an embryo. And this embryo could potentially, you know, go to be birthed into a live birth. But they test it, and it has Down syndrome, you will have a fight against you about implanting that embryo. Because if they implant that embryo in you, and it does have Down syndrome, and you give birth to a child with Down syndrome, they have to report Hey, this is like this percentage of our children that we've created come out having down syndrome And so again, it's about their rates and their bottom line because that looks bad for them saying like we produce children with down syndrome If you use our clinic, um, so you as the parent have to like be the advocate when it comes to like any kind of like disability the child might have or if there's any like blemishes or things that they see um from an early stage if they will not want you to implant those embryos, even if you want to. So it, you know, depends. Every clinic is a little different with that. But like, it's a fight to have. And so I don't know how specific they can get. Like you said, like hair, I know that that they at least when it comes to picking the parents, they they try to do that. But I don't know how specific they can test at this stage. I think it's pretty advanced, though.

Stephanie Winn: It's a brave new world out there.

Samantha DeLoach: It is.

Stephanie Winn: Darkest place we could possibly go, and then we'll wrap up, would be, you know, because you're already talking about womb renting and splicing the mother into three. The next frontier, well, I see a couple of next frontiers here, right? We have womb transplants and the craziest manifestation of that being into men. um which those whole bodies are not designed to cooperate with the process um with you know so far no successful cases of that you know creating a healthy baby but some tragic frankensteinian exploration along the way um so we have womb transplants the idea of them being into men for one, right, but not limited to that, and then the artificial wombs that some people, some transhumanists are trying to say will solve all of our problems just by removing the mother completely. I'm glad you see the mom as the problem.

Samantha DeLoach: Maybe more moms in the world is the solution.

Stephanie Winn: The question it raises for me, and I think I've said this once on the podcast before, and it gets really eerie when you start thinking about this, but it really fundamentally erodes the question of what it is to be human. Like what is a baby that is genetically human that is created, that is gestated in an artificial womb without the heartbeat of the mother, without that connection? When you remove that human connection, that's when I really struggle to see is this thing fully human or what is it? I can't imagine it.

Samantha DeLoach: having any healthy result, like, again, like, even as far as we've come so far in with using human surrogates, again, the result is not healthy. So like, again, even taking humans out of it completely and trying to use machines, it's, it's, it's really unbelievable that we're trying to at this point, like, I just think it's that thing of like, it's such a joke. And like, it's so cliche of like, just because we can, does that mean we should? It's like, why did no one ask that anymore? Like, now it's just, again, when you erase truth from from reality, and you say there is no truth, and everything's so subjective, and everyone can do what they want and say what they want. And everyone just has different personalities. And you're not allowed to speak out against it. This is where you come to this is the end of it. You know, when, when money is what drives things, and when, when adults have desires that they can pay for, then there's almost like no limit at this point, you know, what what we'll do, because children can't speak for themselves. They can't advocate for themselves. They have no way to defend themselves against these kinds of situations. And that's why we as a society are supposed to be protecting children because they're one of the only groups of humans who can't protect themselves in any capacity or even speak for themselves. Even the elderly can at least voice their opinions and say, hey, something's happening and we need you guys to help us with this. But children can't do that. Unborn babies can't do that. You know, so unfortunately, they're the ones who get the brunt of all of this like dystopian, evil things happening to them. It's terrible. But yeah, I definitely I mean, I see us going in that direction. I don't know how far we'll get. I truly again, I'm not a scientist, but I just can't imagine it ever being possible for a man to carry a child. Like you said, every part of the woman's body goes into that. Um, it's not just a womb. You can't just put a womb somewhere and the womb will do all the work. It's like every muscle, every, you know, our bone structure changes to, to make this happen. And even what we're created with bone structurally is, is ready for that. And, um, you know, we have a lot of different reproductive organs that go into that and, um, our hormones go into that. So again, there's just so many aspects of that that I don't think will ever result in a child. But again, when you another thing people just don't think about when you do have these embryos, and you give them to science, and you say, Yeah, I'll donate it to science, because maybe it'll help save a life one day. Yeah, well, maybe it'll end up in a trans man. And maybe that baby is going to like, get to, you know, 25 weeks and like have all of these medical issues and be in so much pain. And they're trying so hard to push this to make this happen. And it's your child that gets destroyed in the process and has to go through a life like that. Because you're not thinking that far ahead, you think people aren't that evil, you think people would never do that kind of thing. You know, it wasn't in the paperwork that they told you to sign, you know, so it's this idea of like, I just think it's not even just about this. I always say we need to put, I've probably said it a million times today, but we need to put the well-being and rights of children before the desires of adults. But that's on the large scale. On the smaller scale is think like a parent. You have this responsibility to your child And whether your child is the age of an embryo or whether your child is in their 30s, you have a responsibility to them. And yeah, I mean, it gets limited as they get older. I'm not going to let my kids live in my basement when they're 60. But it's this idea of like you. We have really programmed women and men You know, again, it's not just women. Men are the ones who are just walking down and saying, like, hey, I can make an extra buck today. I'm going to go. I'm going to go donate, donate some sperm that they get paid for. So it's not even a donation. And that could be their child, too. So men have the same issue in a lot of ways. But we've really programmed men and women to think so much about themselves that even when it comes to reproduction, even when it comes to donating your egg, donating your sperm, doing surrogacy, donating your embryos to science, these are all forms of not being responsible for your own children and anything happening to them that's out of your control. And it could just the idea that you don't care about that or you don't think about that is such a disservice, I think, to your children. And it's such a disservice to society as a whole. And if more people cared about their children and the well-being of their children, I just think that we'd be in a totally different place as a society.

Stephanie Winn: Well said. and you put it in terms of thinking about your children before you become a parent. And my spiritual woo-woo side has some experience with what they call manifestation. And I found with regard to other topics besides children that thinking about my responsibility and readiness for the thing that was not yet in my life has been an incredibly helpful way to manifest, if you will, what I want in life. You know, really thinking like, if the thing that I want were to walk into my life tomorrow, would I be ready for it? What do I need to do to get myself together mentally, emotionally, spiritually, physically, materially to be a match for the life I want? That's been a really helpful way of thinking about certain things in my life. So, yeah, I can absolutely apply that to parenthood. And so I don't think my listener base is very young. I think, you know, based on the demographics, a lot of my listeners are in their 40s, 50s and 60s because one of my main audiences is concerned parents. of trans-identified youth who, you know, their kids have their own place in this madness of atomizing and separating reproductive beings into all these different parts. So that's kind of a different side of the issue, but I think it's partly my passion for helping people with that issue. and wanting people to be whole and healed and sexually and relationally healthy beings that compels me to look at all these other issues. So I know that some of that audience is going to be a little offended because some of them have used these technologies and think there's nothing wrong with it. And I would just ask them to calm your horses and this isn't about you and there's no need to be defensive because I'm an idealist. I'm always thinking about how we can create a better world. And so we talk about difficult things on this podcast, but if there are any young people, women in their 20s, especially, I think listening to this podcast, I hope if I could leave you with a message based on having conversations like this one with Samantha, that you can also think along the exact lines she was just describing of thinking in terms of what is your responsibility to your future children? What do you need to do to position yourself, you know, to choose their father wisely, to make your own choices wisely so that you can really act out of care for them? And it's really an incredibly grounding and orienting way of thinking about things. Yeah.

Samantha DeLoach: No, I think, you know, we hear often, you know, girls and girls in their 20s, you know, when when they are abortion minded, and a lot of the things that you'll hear is, you know, I'm not ready for a baby, I don't want a baby. And so that's why I need to go get this abortion. And what I would want to say to a lot of girls who are like sexually active and living that lifestyle is, this is like the one thing that can create a child and you have to think outside of yourself and you have to think years in advance when you want children, what do you want to tell your child? Like you came into this life because I was patient and I waited and I found the right person and we got married and we planned for you and we're excited for you and that's how you were created or do you want to tell them, I really wasn't thinking about it. I was kind of being irresponsible. I don't really know your dad that well. We just ended up being together. Or like, again, you can end your child's life. But again, that's, I don't think that would be the great answer. But I'm just trying to say like, whether or not you have an abortion today, or you don't, and you have children later down in life, and you have to say like, Okay, well, I had to abort your your sibling earlier in life, because we didn't plan things that I was being irresponsible. Or do you want to tell your child, I planned for you. I was patient for you. I was responsible for you. I was thinking about you years before I had you. And what do you think would be more meaningful to your child, you know, and again, some people will say my kid won't care. And it's like, Yeah, well, I think they will. I think most kids care whether or not they're wanted. Most kids care whether or not their parents like intentionally planned for them and cared about who their dad was and cared about the lifestyle that they would have. And so I just I think a lot of people are conditioned to think only about themselves and live in the moment. And I think if we cared more about the people around us and the future people in our lives, like our future children. I think it's healthier for them, but I think it's healthier for us, too. I think it leads to a healthier lifestyle, even in the moment. And I really encourage many, many young people to think that way, women and men, so.

Stephanie Winn: I really thank you for that, Samantha. And I just got an idea. I'm going to do something a little different to close than I usually do. So for context here, I have a course called ROGD Repair, I advertise it every episode, so listeners already know that, and some listeners are in the course, and it is for concerned parents of trans-identified youth to find healthier ways of communicating with them based on the psychology of the trifecta of social contagion. And in the course, when I add a video and a lesson, I have reflection questions. And that's how students customize the material to apply it to their situation. I ask students to choose the lessons they think apply most to their families and focus on the reflection questions for those so that they can really ask themselves, you know, how does this apply to my family? How would my child react to me approaching them this way? And so on. And I don't normally do anything like that on this podcast, but since members of ROGD Repair get early access to new episodes of this podcast, and I upload them to the course, and there might be a handful of listeners who are in the program, I want to add a reflection question. And that is, What have you told your child about his or her origins? What's your family origin story or the narrative about how your child was conceived and with what intentions? That might be something to reflect on. And maybe you told your child those things a long time ago, and now they're at a much different stage in life. Does the narrative need to be adjusted? Was the narrative told from a place of naivete or ignorance about how it might make your child feel? Was it told in a way that was attempting to coddle or shield or protect them from some aspects of the truth? But the question is just open ended, like how are the origin stories that you've told your child potentially, you know, how did those stories affect how his or her identity has taken shape? So thank you, Samantha, for bringing that up, because I think that's a great question for listeners who want to dive deep. All right, well, I think that's a good place to end things. So please tell us where people can find you.

Samantha DeLoach: Mostly just on either X or Instagram. So you can just go to pro life underscore Sam on either one. So yeah, if you have any questions, even if you hated what I said, I have very thick skin. I'm happy to have those conversations. You can DM me anytime. But I'm happy to follow up with any questions you have about what I said today or if you just want to talk about it further.

Stephanie Winn: OK, and I will add, sometimes people leave questions for my guests in the YouTube comments. I can't guarantee that my guests will look at your YouTube comments. So if Samantha just said, you can DM her. Try that instead. But do leave the comments, because that helps the algorithm. OK, thanks so much, Samantha. It's been a pleasure. Yeah, thanks for having me. Thank you for listening to You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist. If you enjoyed this episode, kindly take a moment to rate, review, share, or comment on it using your platform of choice. And of course, please remember, podcasts are not therapy, and I'm not your therapist. Special thanks to Joey Pecoraro for this awesome theme song, Half Awake, and to Pods by Nick for production. For help navigating the impact of the gender craze on your family, be sure to check out my program for parents, ROGD Repair. Any resource you heard mentioned on this show, plus how to get in touch with me, can all be found in the notes and links below. Rain or shine, I hope you will step outside to breathe the air today. In the words of Max Ehrman, with all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world.