You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist

Swell AI Transcript: 164. Steve Palmer.mp3
Steve Palmer:
AGP is really sexual paraphilia. It does, over the years, develop roots in someone's identity. Potentially, it can take on a life of its own, if we allow it to. This is a sexual thing. This is not healthy. This is not good. I'm ashamed. There's an internal sort of pull. The path of least resistance is to kind of allow that sexual energy to dominate and take over. As you do kind of give it an inch, it wants to take a mile. I've drawn an absolute line in the sand and said, no, absolutely not. You must be some kind of therapist.

Stephanie Winn: Today, my guest is Steve Palmer. He's here today to offer us a different perspective on autogynephilia as someone who has personally struggled with it since the age of 12, but has chosen not to let it take over his life decisions. In Seeking Solutions, Steve has experimented with psychedelics and Buddhism in his 20s only to find himself a born-again Christian at the age of 39. Steve also has a background in therapy, having worked as a licensed professional counselor in Arkansas, only to pursue a career in engineering now in midlife. Steve knows the struggle is real when it comes to autogynephilia, but does not believe in letting it dictate his lifestyle and identity. Steve, thank you so much for joining us today.

Steve Palmer: Thank you, Stephanie.

Stephanie Winn: So thank you for joining me. I really appreciate that you reached out to share your story. And as I've been saying in a lot of interviews lately, I'm in a busy chapter, so I haven't really done my research. I know you do have a YouTube channel where you share about your experiences, and I've watched a few of your videos, but mostly I'm going to be getting to know you today alongside our guests. I know you shared before we started recording that this is an embarrassing topic, and I completely understand that. So I really appreciate your willingness to be candid to help people who are looking for a different perspective on this issue.

Steve Palmer: Sure. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So I mean, I guess I could start out by just sharing a little bit about how I arrived where I'm at. I really like to focus most of our conversation on how men that struggle with what I do might find hope, find healing. It's something that we don't hear a whole lot of as it relates to autogynephilia. And it's a term that I didn't come to know maybe six, eight years ago, maybe. And then it really has helped me gain some more insight and approach my particular struggle. But I guess you mentioned at age of 12, I started struggling with this. And it was just kind of an imprinting, early sexual experience. I think those things are very formative in how we ultimately develop And it's such a trajectory of where we go. And I was foolish, didn't understand anything about sex. And it just so happened in my earliest sexual fantasy included, you know, being a being a girl, having that identifying with her. You know, I always liked girls growing up. I was attracted to girls. I am attracted to girls. But. It was you know, it was it was a misdirection there and it set me up for a lot of problems so, you know growing up I just let that kind of grow and take root and You know ultimate landed in my 20 early 20s. I was contemplating transition I you know bought some hormones. It was kind of that binge purge, you know buying clothes and finding ways to you know, identify with that feminine sense of self. So hormones was part of that. I didn't, I ultimately took them for a couple few days and threw them away. And that was about as far as I went and actually like trying to, I knew it just, anyhow,

Stephanie Winn: Wow, that's actually, can we talk about that part more? You know, I don't know if you listened to my interview with Shane Cole. He's a young man in his 20s who has a similar story also with the imprinting from pornography in his case. And he also took hormones for, I think, three weeks, if I recall correctly, like a very short period.

Steve Palmer: He's the one that had the issue with the hypnosis and stuff online. Yeah, I watched that one, yeah.

Stephanie Winn: Yeah, so I think that's really interesting that you and Shane have a few things in common, including taking hormones so briefly. And this is particularly striking to me because I happen to think of that time that a young person first starts hormones as one of the most dangerous times, as I'm talking to parents who are looking for guidance on these issues. Maybe I especially see it with the daughters who start testosterone that, oh, they're getting that high, you know, they're getting this placebo effect, plus a mood altering chemical, plus finally getting this thing that they really hyped up in their mind. So it seems like a really hard time, at least for someone on the outside to intervene. And so when I do hear these stories where a young person tried it really briefly and then stopped, I become insanely curious. And I really want to know if you wouldn't mind kind of breaking down like what was going on for you then when you started them.

Steve Palmer: Yeah, I guess it was maybe for me kind of in the same category is, you know, buying women's clothing and then a week later throwing it away. Because this AGP is really sexual paraphilia, it does over the years develop roots in someone's identity. Potentially, it can take on a life of its own if we allow it to. But in my case, I still had enough of a solid masculine identity. I grew up as a boy normally. I think that's really the huge a huge asset in my favor. And the struggle is that there are some men that grow up more with a feminine in the feminine world, and they tend to be homosexual and they tend to transition and maybe it works out better for them or it's just more normal. But it's really clashes with men like me. Because, hey, we're dudes and This is a sexual thing that I guess that's the short short answer is that, hey, this is not healthy. This is not good. I'm ashamed. This is this is this is shameful. You know, it didn't make the problem go away. I still was struggling, but I was like kind of that back and forth on the fence time of my life.

Stephanie Winn: I guess what I'm hearing is there's more cognitive dissonance when you're a heterosexual man who has some very masculine traits and interests. And I look at you, and I see what you look like. I hear what your voice sounds like. Masculinity is apparent there, but can you tell us a little bit about your masculine identity, your hobbies, interests, things like that, that helps us understand that sort of clash between these different parts of you?

Steve Palmer: Yeah. So, I mean, some of my interests, I like getting outside, working around the house, home improvement, hiking, camping, backwoods, back, you know, backcountry hiking, which I haven't done much since we have kids and we're kind of like, you know, our radius around home is a lot closer. But, Yeah, I, um, sports and, you know, I like to lift weights and, you know, be, uh, run. I've done some, you know, I'm, I'm kind of an endurance athlete, you know, probably pretty good. I could run, but I tend to stick with things about six, eight, nine months. And then I've never like stuck with like. But yeah, as far as my identity as a male, it's always been pretty solid. But then it's kind of in those secret corners of our minds where we kind of, you know, allow this thing to get steam. And so, yeah, but it was a time in my life when I was also really questioning my purpose. What am I doing on this planet? What's true? You know, so I guess I didn't have time to maybe circle back to the hormones. I think some men that might have been in a similar time would have came back, you know, that binge purge, you know, because that place of dysphoria is most intense when we're really on the fence, when we're like thinking, well, I might go this way or I might go that way. It's kind of a hellish place to be because you're just torn inside. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess I would describe in some of my videos that there's an internal sort of pull constantly in the background, even today, this moment, since all those years to pull me in the path of least resistance is to kind of allow that sexual energy and that to dominate and take over. And so as you do kind of give it an inch, it wants to take a mile. And so if you do the way that I found some success and healing and, you know, more solid ground is I've drawn an absolute line in the sand and said, no, absolutely not. I'm not going to feed this thing. Now, that doesn't make it just go away, but it does really strengthen us as men to be able to to stand against it. But playing around with it, taking out the closet, playing with it just gives it energy. And and that's what I have seen largely with the AGP conversation is it is very intense. It's very hard to make sense of and to not let it take over your life. But I just think there's no way of integrating it in like letting some middle ground is not going to be a good long term solution and it's not going to lead to a good marriage, just a healthy sense of self and identity and. So, you know, and I think I share with you one email that is to be to be determined whether I'm going to see it through. Well, I'm going to hold the course. You know, I do. This isn't like new to me. I mean, I have I'm kind of a. A veteran in some of these battles and struggles, I mean. But it does get very hard and sometimes it gets very hazy and foggy, you know, when we're really struggling.

Stephanie Winn: When you say it remains to be determined, that sounds like a very different message than the resolve and conviction I hear in you.

Steve Palmer: Yeah, yeah. Well, it is. I guess on some onlookers that might see my story and be like, well, we'll see what happens with him. At the same time, internally, I know that, you know, these naysayers have some truth in what they're talking about, that there have been many men who have fallen and have have not finished the race well. And so there has to be humility. At the same time, I'm going to say absolutely I'm not going to do it because I think, you know, I have I have free will, agency and choice in what I do with my life. And so I don't have to. And there's some things as a believer in Christ that I have up my sleeve. There's truth in this universe that I call upon that will help me if I exercise wisdom. And we could talk maybe a little bit more about that later in the conversation, but But basically, I want to establish, you know, without getting too deep and like, hey, I did this stupid thing, that thing I dressed and, you know, in shape. The voice training has been something that's really been tough for me as a temptation, even in later years. Like I've spent some years studying the female voice, shamefully, but that I could I don't think that I could, you know. Anyhow, I spent a lot of time doing that. And it does kind of open up a world into where it's not good, it's not healthy. It just kind of leads to draw me further down that rabbit hole.

Stephanie Winn: So you talked about, I think you used a brilliant word there, imprinting, with your first sexual experiences beginning this path. And we know that there's a lot of brain and body chemistry involved in sexuality. And some of the chemicals involved include dopamine, which is highly involved in sort of hardwiring behavior, reinforcing rewarding behavior and making you want to pursue it more. And it seems like what developed downstream of that, when you describe it, it sounds very obsessive. And I'm wondering if it's ever been helpful to you to think about this as like a form of obsessive compulsive disorder.

Steve Palmer: I think so i think i've kind of um Along those same lines looked at as an addiction You know that dopamine that reward cycle that um, it's an addiction. It really is stephanie. It's a sexual addiction And at the same time like guys like you talk, uh, some of your guests i mentioned phil illey. Um Is um, he's got he's on point. He's somebody he's smarter than I am really as I hear him talk You know, there's people that are smarter than me on your show talking about these things but um It's an addiction. I think that would be a helpful way. Like you talked to someone about motivational interviewing, one of your guests. I called upon that as I worked at Job Corps, working with some different kids, you know, that don't want to be there, finding ways to pull things out of them and help them think about things. But there's 12-step programs out there that I think have a lot of truth in how we can, you know, get free from addiction. But it is an addiction that's been insidious for me that I haven't been able to shake and I don't know if it's just like I'm not I guess I'm somewhat interested in understanding where it came from and why but at the end of the day I have to live with it and if they can offer some key and insight that will help me get free. That's cool

Stephanie Winn: Well, as a former LPC, I'm sure you know how obsessive compulsive disorder is more common in people who are higher in conscientiousness, right? We rarely see someone with OCD who is low in the personality trait conscientiousness. And in fact, it's oftentimes it's high conscientiousness and high neuroticism combined that can really kind of predispose a person to OCD. And so part of that kind of vicious cycle, this is how I sometimes explain this to people. is that for most of us, we have thousands of thoughts a day, and some of them don't make any sense, and some of them are incongruent with who we are. So ego-dystonic, right? Not a match for our values, our personality, our character. And those of us who aren't particularly obsessive or compulsive, when we have a weird thought, we're just like, huh, that's a weird thought, and we don't give it any further attention. because we know that's not me, it doesn't mean anything about me. But someone who's very high in conscientiousness and neuroticism is going to be more prone to go, oh no, a weird thought, uh-oh, what does that mean about me? And then give it more attention and then it becomes a fixation and that sort of, it becomes all kind of knotted up in their brain where the more they focus on it, whether it's a struggle with it or whatever, It just takes up more and more space for them. And I'm wondering, you seem to me like someone high in conscientiousness. You have discipline, willpower, resolve. You have values that you can clearly articulate. You are trying to live as a person of his word, of his faith. So as someone who strikes me at least as being conscientious, I'm wondering about how you feel like applying your discipline and willpower and resolve to kind of the battle with AGP. What are the ways in which that's helping you? And what are the ways in which it's almost kind of keeping the whole thing all like knotted up inside where more like a relaxed attitude or exposure therapy or something might potentially be more helpful? I don't know.

Steve Palmer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think I might have lost those battles years ago. Like I think the hook was set in that neuroticism and tendencies, like you say, might be true of my character, my tendencies. But as that hook was set, I think now today, I wish it was as easy as becoming less troubled by my thoughts and more just letting things, you know, But I think it's a good opportunity for me to share a little bit about how this might relate to, you know, as I was trying to figure out purpose and direction in life, I, you know, started using drugs for whatever. I mean, the psychedelic drugs, marijuana, mushrooms, LSD. And then some other like Salvia and Mescaline, some different ones that I was trying to like- Did you meet the two-dimensional robot alien things on Salvia? And Salvia, yeah, it's a real quick, and I was almost afraid sometimes of taking that big hit, but it was like, I'm about to disappear. I'm about to like lose touch with my surroundings. That was pretty messed up. That was a time when it was still legal or you could get it at head shops. I don't know what it's like now, but it was pretty bizarre. There's like this lady Salvia is legit. There's something there.

Stephanie Winn: No, so you actually met the machine elves?

Steve Palmer: I think that's more on like DMT and the ayahuasca. I never did that. But yeah, there's definitely something there. So there is something in the spiritual realm that is objective and concrete for people to have these similar experiences.

Stephanie Winn: To be fair, I've never done these drugs. I've just heard, and I think it's really interesting that this is, that when lots of people tried the same hallucinogen and have the same experience, it's like, well, what's going on there? Okay.

Steve Palmer: So that really got me, and I'm gonna, I think you have a good question there about the battle in the mind, the thinking, the thoughts, the thoughts. So, but as I was getting into psychedelic drugs, I got in trouble with the law. I had to go through drug court. I was able to complete that. But I was using these psychedelic drugs and It got me interested in the spiritual dimensions so I could no longer smoke marijuana every day instead I started to meditate and some of these Eastern Eastern philosophies Buddhism that came out of Hinduism was really interesting to me because I It was experiential. I could try it out. I could do this and see what my experience was. It wasn't just believe this or do this. Don't take our word for it. So I did really go 100% all in on Buddhism for two years. I was meditating probably. I was doing my undergraduate engineering. I went to an engineering school that was all engineers. So it was pretty hardcore engineering. Everyone there is an engineer. So it was a lot of work academically, but I didn't have a job. So I had time to meditate sometimes three, four, five, six, seven, eight hours a day in silence. And so I was pretty focused on achieving enlightenment. I would walk around campus barefoot for miles and I was just like, kind of in my own little world while this other stuff was kind of undercurrent with the AGP. So it really did. There was a lot of internal turmoil within while I thought I was on the right path to finding peace and answers to my questions. But ultimately, when I completed drug court, I went back to smoking marijuana, you know, to celebrate and had learned my lesson. But. And that night, my friend smoked the same marijuana, but I smoked it. And I was way I was like, I just take taking a bunch of mushrooms. I was in a full blown psychedelic trip. And it wasn't like there was anything in the mushrooms or in the marijuana. So I had what was a drug induced psychosis, which from my understanding, especially in Britain, there's been a lot of good research on like maybe two, three percent of people. are kind of predisposed or no one can know. I can never go back in time and know if this if I would have developed like schizophrenic tendencies. But I went full force into psychosis. And that's a long another story on how I was hospitalized and I was I was in bad shape.

Stephanie Winn: Oh, wow.

Steve Palmer: Yeah, so that's where I was hearing voices, delusional seeing things. I thought I didn't sleep for days. I was smelling things, hearing voices, lots of really bizarre things. I was still very lucid. I could still tell you about all these experiences. So even as you see people that are maybe like they're way out there in psychosis, they probably, they know what's going on, even though they don't have a good sense of what's reality. They're in their own world. But they did give me some antipsychotic drugs. I took Abilify. It gave me that akathisia where I couldn't stop moving. So it was really miserable. When I got over there, I took Zyprexa for seven years. And it did help me to kind of separate that. I believe there's a spiritual realm that's interacting with our biological. So there's things in my brain that I probably messed up with the drugs. but there was a spiritual dimension that I tapped into that was all mixed up. So my mind was a mess. So as you talk about being able to navigate that headspace, I'm thankful to have my sanity again. My mind is very clear and calm and quiet. But at that time in my life, it was like there were voices from every direction.

Stephanie Winn: Just to be clear, if you don't mind, you no longer require any antipsychotic drugs?

Steve Palmer: No.

Stephanie Winn: How long have you been off of them? 2014, 10 years, 11 years. We don't hear stories like this very often. I mean, you reached out to me to talk about your battle with AGP. I didn't know we were going to get into this, but this is actually another really valuable life experience that you have to offer because, first of all, you point out that drug-induced psychosis is a real thing. that marijuana is, it is a risky drug when it comes to people with latent psychotic tendencies. And we don't always know that those tendencies are there until they're activated. You know, if you do have a family history, like, you know, I have a family history, so I have an aunt with schizoaffective, a late aunt. Sometimes you have that information, but sometimes you don't know until it's too late. And so sometimes it's a combination of factors that triggers psychosis and leads to permanent disability with something like schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder. But every now and then we do hear these recovery stories. And I think those stories are so important. So just for perspective, what diagnosis were you given when you were hospitalized?

Steve Palmer: Yeah, I was given drug-induced psychosis to start off with. And some of the psychiatrists were like, your son might not ever be the same again. We see sometimes And it was the case that I had recurrent episodes. I could talk a little bit about that. But as you read the diagnostic criteria for schizophrenia and persistence, and, you know, I never did have that diagnosis, but it would have been probably fair after a few years of these recurrent psychotic episodes. You were high risk. Persistent delusions. Yeah.

Stephanie Winn: You were heading down that path and you managed to recover. So psychotic, anti-psychotic drugs stabilized you. What else did you do to get stable? Was it just- Yeah.

Steve Palmer: Well, no, it's a miracle. It really is. It defies most statistics and stories you'll hear in testimonies. You can manage my condition, basically. People that I worked with in inpatient, we're trying to manage them, hey, get them some meds. But you don't really say, hey, you can actually get free from this and it's not going to be a lifelong issue you have to deal with. So I really attributed to God really rescuing me. So while I was at this psych hospital, I came in there and asked everybody I was there to save him. I had this sort of messianic thing going on. But after a couple of few days of not sleeping, I was like, maybe I need help. And so there was a Bible sitting in there just, you know, next to an armchair. And every time I opened the Bible, it like. I mean, it just really struck me like a knife. I was just like, whoa. I was like, I didn't know what was going on, but I knew that I was in trouble. I just sensed a great conviction and fear. So I would talk to other patients in there and be like, hey, what about this Bible? What do you think? And they'd be like, no, that's just man's words. And I talked to others that were like, you better believe that's the word of God. And so I'm trying to figure this out myself because I was like, I don't this wasn't what I'm trying to understand spiritual things. I thought I was on what led up to that inpatient hospitalization was a whole nother story. But this is where I landed. And I was like, I remember I believe God said this to me. I believe he said, do you want the truth or do you want what you want the truth to be? Something along those lines. So I had to do I really want the truth or do I want what I want the truth to be? It was kind of a fork in the road. And I was like, Hey, I'm whatever it is, whatever the truth is, I'm okay with that, even if it's not what I expected. So I started reading the Bible and my mind was in such gridlock. Like I remember Psalm 71. It's like, in thee, oh Lord, do I put my trust. Let me never be put the confusion. was the first verse that I ever memorized in the Bible, but I was in a halfway house out of there and there was, and I, well, this is, I think this is significant. It's just, it's an experience I had. I was laying there one night about half awake and I, and I, I wasn't asleep, but my eyes were closed and I saw a furnace of flames and I felt heat. And I thought I was like, I'm seeing hell, hellfire. And a voice said to me, you can go your way or you can go my way. So I was like, all right. I was like, I'm on my way to hell. I felt, I was thoroughly, it was a very, it rocked my world, you know? So I like, I started reading the Bible and my mind was so messed up, I couldn't even read three words without forgetting the first one. So that was kind of where it was a part of my rehabilitation. When I share with you, I was delivered and healed from this psychosis. It took a number of years, but it was like medicine taken in God's word. It was feeding me. And so as I deal with AGP, some of the things that I try to share with men, a prerequisite is coming in relationship with God to really access these resources. But as I studied the Bible and I as I left there, my parents were like, what's going on with our son? Like, you need to you need to chill out with the Bible, son, because, you know, I'm like, I go one thing to the next. And I was just like. You guys need to know Jesus, you know, I'm like, Jesus is the way and they're like, OK, OK, let's just take your medicine. But it was the case is I was studying and growing. My mind was becoming I was getting more clarity and and I was learning things that was helping me get freedom. So that's really the meat and potatoes of me getting free. But I will say that the psych meds will help that there's a biological component. Schizophrenia is not all spiritual. There are demonic spirits. It's not just neurochemistry gone haywire. When I'm hearing these voices, worship Satan, worship Satan, worship Satan over and over my head, that's not just me and some sort of subconscious thing that I got from culture or something. these sort of spirits were working overtime to like almost, I don't want to go too deep into that, but I would, I would, anyone that's struggling with psychosis, I would encourage them to not focus on the voices, not talk to them. They are real entities, but I had to learn how to kind of just, I'm like going to a job interview and I'm like shaking my, someone's hand and I'm just like hearing all sorts of profanity go through my head. I'm hearing like, you know, you need to, you know, punch him in the face, punch him in the face. And I'm just shaking and I'm interviewing for this job. And and it's just like you have to learn. So when you talk about thoughts, being able to, like, make sense of those thoughts, I've been through a rigorous sort of process of being able to filter out what's my thought, what's not my thought, which what is which side is up and having having a bearing and orientation that doesn't depend on my mind can be doing, but I'm going this direction.

Stephanie Winn: When you were hearing those thoughts, were they the sort of auditory hallucinations where it was indistinguishable from sounds you would actually hear in that room or did it feel like it was inside your head?

Steve Palmer: Yeah. A few times there were auditory, but most of the time it was then like in my own internal voice.

Stephanie Winn: So most of the time it was like an intrusive thought.

Steve Palmer: Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Winn: And just for listeners who aren't familiar with these distinctions, intrusive thoughts are often in the person's own voice or maybe a voice that they've internalized from a loved one and are experienced in the same way that any of us experience thoughts but with more intensity and fear and sometimes this sense of you know, commanding or direction, and it feels, it can feel, as he's describing, it can feel ego dystonic, it can feel like a mismatch for who you are. Like the intrusive thought could be saying, punch someone when actually you're trying to make a good impression and you're a kind person. And that is distinct from an auditory hallucination, which is experienced in the same way that you would hear something in the room. So I just want people to understand this distinction because, you know, it's relevant when it comes to diagnosis and things like that. And I'm hearing both this history of OCD traits and then some really scary psychotic symptoms that were at least partly drug-induced. And I will share that the most common types of auditory hallucinations are hypnagogic and hypnopompic. In other words, those that are had while falling asleep or waking up. So when you're on the cusp of sleep, people who otherwise don't have hallucinations, I'm just sharing this for the audience, can sometimes have them. And I've experienced those. I have not experienced any other type of hallucination except for those. But there's been a couple of times where I was either falling asleep or waking up, and I heard something that truly sounded like it was in the room and really freaked me out. One of the two times, I can't remember what the other time was, but one of the two times I was in a house that had creepy vibes. I was at an Airbnb that some friends had rented and it felt like we were in a ghost town. and I experienced something that felt like a spirit moving around that room, whispering to people. So that was creepy. But just for listeners, if you've ever had auditory hallucinations, but it's only in the context of hypnagogic or hypnopopic, that's pretty low risk for developing any other type of hallucinations.

Steve Palmer: I think it's pretty normal for everybody to have that, yeah.

Stephanie Winn: Yeah, I mean, not everyone, but more people than otherwise. So I'm just trying to understand kind of the nature of the psychotic symptoms that you were experiencing. And it sounds like, again, I'm kind of looking at the OCD type stuff that you were experiencing and these intrusive thoughts that were kind of bordering on command auditory hallucinations. And you experience this as a spiritual thing. And I'm so curious for someone who's now stable, you're not having psychotic symptoms, you don't require antipsychotics, but you're a very spiritual person, like how you're currently making sense of these things because you do believe that these are real entities.

Steve Palmer: Yeah, so basically, the way I look at it is I had an infestation that I had to open up doors and made agreements legally. I think that in the spiritual realm, there's legal agreements that we can open ourselves up to through the sexual morality I was into, the occult world. I was into Carlos Castaneda and these shamanism and Buddhism and drugs. All sorts of, you know, these are my particular struggles. There's a hundred thousand and one different ways under the sun that we can get caught up. But as I made these agreements and then I came into faith in Christ, that's really what God set me free. He broke those agreements and contracts. that I was no longer a slave to those things. I was no longer under their jurisdiction, but they're not evicted necessarily instantaneously. I think sometimes people come to know God and God delivers them, boom, kind of like the demoniac in the scripture where legion is in this man and he's like in chains and Jesus cast all the legion out and he's in his right mind, just boom. Like for me, it was more of just like a progressive deliverance where I learned how to walk in truth, kind of like a baby. I was just taking my first step and I was learning and repenting and saying, God, I'm sorry, I'm breaking it. I'm sorry about that. I'm going to get this out of my life. I don't want to do that anymore. And these things would break off. There were times like, I remember when I went to my first church service, I believe God had already saved me, but a woman came up to me and said, are you a believer? Are you saved? I was like, I couldn't even say anything. I wanted to say yes, but there was still so much bondage. And then a man came up to me and said, son, do you know the Lord? And I was like, yes. And then all of a sudden my field of vision went blank, boom, and like something jolted me. And I was like, oh, I don't know what that was, but there was just a sequence. There's these things that were broken off of me as I learned my authority in Christ. There are people that kind of get off and left field and they're like in deliverance ministry where not everything has to be about devils. But there are demons. And in my case, if I wouldn't have addressed these things, I wouldn't have got free. So I had to learn how to cast them out in the name of Jesus. Go. So it doesn't have to be some big theatric thing. But when we know our authority in Christ, we have authority in that realm. And those spirits know. I hope they know who I am. I mean, they know Jesus. Jesus has the authority. But as we learn to partner with him. So that was just years, you know, I would say, God, I'm done with this medication. There were some people in church who were like, hey, if you take that medication, you're not trusting God. I didn't really believe that. But I was like, God, I really don't want to be dependent on this medicine the rest of my life. So I would like, you know, get a pill cutter. I would take my 10 milligram. I want to make a seven and a half this week. Five. two and a half, you know, down to two and a half. Now I'm starting to have like more stuff going on during the day. It's kind of hard for me to remember this. It's like 15 years ago, but, but then, you know, I was like, in faith, I'm going on a road trip. I'm gonna leave my medicine here. It's a bad idea. So, you know, I used to go into a full flow psychosis and I'm trying to drive back like three hours to get my medication. And a lot of weird stuff happening, like you experienced in that kind of haunted house scenario. Like when I was back into that realm, like these things started to manifest, you know, like, So I don't want to get, you know, I'm not superstitious, but I just recognize that I was kind of thrown into this just really bizarre. These are things, experiences I had and what really attracted me to Buddhism and psychedelics is I could experience the spiritual realm. I had a lot of what you would say were like, wow, these are really amazing experiences on psychedelics. They only had one or two bad trips. but there's a spiritual realm out there. And I guess that's one thing I would like to share with folks with AGP is that we understand that being man and woman, there's these objective realities in this universe. There's just, we've gotten so lost in this relativism and subjective experiences and identifying. Well, there's also an objective reality in the spiritual realm, just like the physical. I ran into the spiritual realm and You know, we each have to make sense of our own experiences, but there is direction. There's truth. There's laws. I guess I wrote down some things here, but I think that's important. Not everyone has to believe like I do. I wouldn't necessarily believe someone that just told me this, but it's very rational. As I got to know God and follow Jesus, I'm a man with a scientific mind. I study philosophy, science. It's very logical, rational, as you start to really dig deep into these things. But that's how I got free, really. I was determined to get free, but God helped me.

Stephanie Winn: You know, I think my listeners, some might get frustrated by how difficult I am to pin down on things because we have this tendency to want to put people in a box. You know, are you left-wing or right-wing? Are you Christian or atheist? Are you this or that, right? And I think when it comes to a lot of things, I'm somewhere in between and have gotten a lot of freedom out of realizing I actually don't have to define my stance on every single issue. That being said, I think I am both a spiritual and a skeptical person. I am a little bit superstitious regarding some particular things, and I'm open to a lot of possibilities. So when it comes to the spiritual component of autogynephilia, Well, more broadly, this trans issue that I've spent all this time unpacking on my podcast and in my course, I think if you didn't believe in evil before, it'll make you want to believe in evil when you understand the scale and scope of what's going on, and when you understand how our human nature gets hijacked by this cult, when you understand how I mean, I'll tell you a little bit about my thoughts on evil that have developed through studying this phenomenon. And I think it was episode like 108 or 109 or something like this where I unpacked this because there was a time when a couple of prominent gender critical activists came after me and tried to cancel me because I said like one thing that they interpreted in bad faith. And I was very hurt by that. And how I made sense of it was this video, well, a podcast called The Nature of the Beast of Gender Ideology. And I was looking at what we can learn from all this about the nature of the beast. And what I came to discover is that one thing about the nature of evil is that it punishes. And that is why it exists in juxtaposition to grace. And so I looked at how You know, what is so truly evil about this gender ideology is that people are punished endlessly for making mistakes. And these are mistakes that I think should be considered forgivable, like many of them are mistakes I could have easily made if I look at the kind of person I was and the things that I struggled with when I was younger. It's a good thing that this ideology wasn't around then because while I have had to live with the consequences of my actions and of what I didn't know and my flaws, I've had to live, the consequences that I've had to live with pale in comparison to the consequences that detransitioners and anyone who suffered at the hands of this cult have had to live with. So the idea that being mistaken or being egotistical or being naive at a young age could have such extreme consequences that you would be physically punished for the rest of your life, By having to live with with pain and disability. I mean that if that doesn't make you believe in evil I don't know what what will and that's part of what motivated my sort of spiel in that lesson. It was like, well, it was an episode, not a lesson. I call things lessons because I have a course, but it was an episode, you know. But I was saying like, look, this is the nature of the beast of gender ideology. It is this demonic force that wants to punish you for your sins. rather than offering grace for your flawed humanity. And we have to find a better way. So those are some of my thoughts on evil. And when you look into like the, you know, the Reddit forums of the autogenophilia people, and you look at where some of this gender stuff is coming from, and it really does have a demonic feeling to it, even if you're not a born again Christian.

Steve Palmer: Yeah, I think you're right. You know, evil is, I think, kind of a fundamental, like, if you don't have that in your worldview, you're not living a reality. It's okay. There were years where I wasn't. In Buddhism, what we believed is that you could transcend duality. There is no evil. There is no good. Things just are. It's kind of appealing, maybe. But, you know, you're right. There is evil. As we live, I think folks that got some more years, more miles, you know, on the road of life, you're gonna see evil. you know, how we figure out where that came from, what it's all about. How do we play into that battle between good and evil? That's what God's been showing me. But I would say one, there was a turning point also in my, and I will say also that, hey, there's demonic things, yes, but most of my problem is me. Most of it's my heart, my own just skewed desire, my selfishness, my own just corrupted. You know, some people get a little bit like, you know, don't be so hard on yourself. I'm not. I love myself and I forgive myself and I don't live in shame. And but I will say to receive grace, there's a prerequisite of honesty. If we're going to receive grace, we have to first get honest. Otherwise, there is no grace. It's kind of like if, you know, I damage your car, I'm sorry, you know, not only say sorry, I'm just, you know, like, just give me grace. You're like, so if there's a relationship where I'm unfaithful to my spouse, I got to first come clean. So that's really what I share with you a little snapshot of my life where I was coming clean with God. And some people might be like, well, you're just, you know, being too hard on yourself. Well, I think in order to really receive the good news, we have to receive the bad news thoroughly. And that's one of my problems with the church is that sometimes there's just a very one-sided, God is loving and grace, and yes, He is, and we should preach more on that. But there's not really a sobriety and understanding of what sin is and what evil in this universe is. I don't dwell on that all the time, but I think you have to be very thoroughly dealt with on that. It left a mark on me. And then as I fear God, the Bible says the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. When we get sobriety there and we have, He's God, I'm not, then it allows me to have a right relationship with Him. And He's like, come here, son, let me teach you. Let me show you. And that's what he's done. He's really taught me how to be a man. And he's forgiven me. And and he continues to just share his goodness and his love. So it's developed into like a romantic love relationship with God that I recognize that he's God and he's all powerful and and I'm nothing in the balance. So I think it gives us the right perspective. But we're going back, you know, that I think it's it's good to touch on a demonic here. We can have pause on that. I think people need to know it exists. If you don't That's relevant. But yeah, the sinful heart, the heart, the selfishness that we have as men that you see on these AGP forums, which I've been on sometimes over the years, and the Internet is just a cesspool. It's a great tool. There's a lot of good information on there. But for me to get free from this, I've really had to put a governor on my Internet consumption. You know, actually, my wife, she she has like my I have an iPhone. I'm pretty good technologically. I can get around things. But with the iPhone, I can basically put on screen. Like control and she has the only password to unlock it. She has my Apple ID password There's no way I like try to figure out if I really want to get around this. How do I do it now? This computer I'm on right now. I can do whatever I want But it's really the most temptation occurs when I have it in my pocket and I'm just like struggling somewhere On demand so I don't have internet on my smartphone. It has helped me a lot But yeah, as you mentioned grace I think it's you know, I wrote down some notes here but my channel on YouTube is called grace by which I stand and There's a Keith Green song. He was a guy in the 70s He only he died in a plane crash tragically, but like for like a two years. I just listen to Keith Green music He's got powerful lyrics and just grace by which I stand is one of his songs and it means a lot to me but yeah grace, I think you have to be very like that's just that is that's what it's all about and

Stephanie Winn: Many of you listening to this show are concerned about an adolescent or young adult you care about who's caught up in the gender insanity and therefore at risk of medical self-destruction. I developed ROGD Repair as a resource for parents just like you. It's a self-paced online course and community that will teach you the psychology concept and communication tools the families I've consulted with have found most helpful in understanding and getting through to their children, even when they're adults. Visit ROGDRepair.com to learn more about the program and use promo code SUMTHERAPIST2025 at checkout to take 50% off your first month. That's ROGDRepair.com. Speaking of those forums, you sent me an email shortly before this recording with a link to a Reddit forum where they were talking about you, where the trunes, as we call them, on Killer Critical are. Yeah, and I actually took a screenshot and posted it on X because one of the comments was that your wife or mother should drug you against your will, that they should sneak estrogen into your food. How did that comment land with you?

Steve Palmer: Yeah, so on some level, I wrote down some of the reasons I do what I do. I really want to help men see that there is hope, that some of these men that are kind of commenting like they are, they don't believe there's any other way. So they're trying to rationalize their choice and what they've chosen to do. And I can understand that. And if I like show up in a dress and start going by some female pronoun and name, that'll just further validate what they think is true. So on some level, I want to continue. I have a testimony and I have a responsibility, a platform to You know, people, you know, there's ministries that have gone down because somebody was unfaithful. Somebody cheated. Somebody lied. The church is given a black eye because somebody. So I don't want to be part of that, but I don't let them bother. You know, I didn't even know that existed. So like this last week, I like went on Reddit and looked it up because I was preparing for this interview and kind of reading stuff and seeing what was out there. But it's kind of interesting.

Stephanie Winn: I think it's such a telling comment in a number of ways because it's the same trans rights activists that are all about, you know, they're supposedly all about this idea of bodily autonomy and consent, right? Until you as a man who struggles with autogynephilia say, actually, I don't want to put estrogen in my body. I'm not going to harm myself. I'm not going to act this out. I'm going to conquer it. And then they think you should be drugged against your will. It also is just one of those many things I see on the internet where it's just so plainly evil on its surface. And it's just interesting to see how that community is meeting you as someone who's trying to offer a different voice. It seems like sort of the consensus from the trunes on Reddit is that, you know, well, there's this idea of an egg. So for any listeners who aren't familiar with the concept

Steve Palmer: What is a trune? I'm sorry, I don't know what a trune is.

Stephanie Winn: Oh, that's sort of, it's a term of, it's sort of like a mocking term that gets used on gender critical acts when we're talking about trans rights activists who behave like goons or loons. I'm not actually sure like the origin, but you know, people who are just being ridiculous and mean and nasty and absurd. So, you know, So there's this idea of an egg, which of course you're well familiar with, but for anyone in the audience who isn't familiar with the concept of an egg, it's this idea that it's a pre-trans person, a trans person who hasn't discovered that they're trans yet, their egg hasn't cracked. And so the egg cracking is the moment that they discover that they're actually really trans. They've been trans all along and they were just in an egg. They were not yet ready to be born again, essentially. They're egg cracking and discovering their real identity. So the consensus among the people who were talking about you on Reddit was that you held the world's record for the longest uncracked egg or something like that.

Steve Palmer: according to a few of these guys, which I guess I learned what repping was on my YouTube. They're like, rep- What is repping? I didn't know until I read that thread, but I picked up on it means repression. So I'm just repping. I'm just repressing is what I'm doing. Now, I will say that as I do repress these things, I do squelch them. I don't let them just have free reign. There is still this default sort of pull into it that I don't fully understand. But I guess part of what gives me strength in this battle is that I'm okay with suffering, that my suffering has a purpose. In buddhism their thought is that hey life is suffering and there's some there's truth in that But as I've come to know god, I and you know, there's all sorts that I could say about teaching in the scripture That the suffering has a purpose And it's not just uh arbitrary. Um, and this side of eternity I might not see I might have to suffer and it kind of sucks. It's not fun I think i've never had chronic pain, but I kind of liken it maybe to someone that has chronic disc pain Because I do carry within me like a persistent sort of like ache and pain in my loins. That's not fun. And then there were years where if I would just give into those desires, the AGP, it was like, I would get some relief for a minute until it kind of built back up. So, but that's, it's just, it's really torture to put yourself through that cycle over and over. So, I guess some of the things I've done lately that have helped me, maybe I, maybe we could pivot that direction. I'm like, what can I do to help, man? Because like, hey, I've kind of maybe established that I know something of the struggle that, you know, it's pretty deep seated. I have a history with it. Um, but as far as how I've made sense of it is there's a spiritual lens that I see these things through in a human condition That by nature we um, we all have our own struggles Um, but I want to you know, look at there's a we're also human where we have bodies. We have physical bodies So there's things that i've done the past couple years that have helped me physically to like be more grounded in my masculinity I focus on increasing my testosterone, lifting weights, heavy things, running, nutrition, sleeping right. Very important for testosterone is probably in the top two or one or two really sleep. Cold showers. I like I would try to try cold plunges. That'd be probably pretty. But just things that we can do to take care of our body has helped me to kind of align and orient myself in the right direction. It doesn't make those desires go away. And actually, I was messing around with ChatGPT, which I think is very dangerous, potentially, with AGP, because it almost gives you this blank canvas where you can use this AI to come up with new ideas on how you can come up with new ideas on this whole AGP thing. And it's more than willing to do that for you. But you can also potentially use it to help you maybe think about problems in a different way. So it kind of like made me think about the formative experiences and sort of the neuroplasticity of the mind that I have a potential to kind of rewire some of these circuits. So that's really my focus is like trying to just become more grounded in my masculinity, in my testicles, in my manhood. Because the other thing that pulls me tries to make me dissociate from that. It's like I have probably over the years shuffled from less sensation down there than I should have, less awareness down there than I should have. But it's like I've really focused my efforts on that mind-body map. Because I think the AGP, the way they talk about a neurotic target location error, it gets directed inward. and you start to lose sight of, you lose touch with your body in a healthy way. So part of getting free is like, I'm gonna reassert my masculinity and become more connected to my body. That's not 100%, but that's very valuable.

Stephanie Winn: That phrase, erotic target location error, I'm familiar with it, but can you define it for those who haven't heard this concept before?

Steve Palmer: Yeah, I guess AGP is really the love of oneself as woman, where my desire for woman gets directed not towards outward towards woman, but inward towards feeling like a woman. So that energy, so yeah, part of me rewiring my brain is like I'm directing my energy outward. So thankfully I can have very healthy relations with my wife and I can focus on pleasuring her and meeting her needs and directing my masculine energy outwards. You know, as a married man, I have a healthy outlet. And so we can have, you know. We have good frequency that helps me. But, you know, the tendency, if I'm, you know, all those years of masturbating alone, it was just directed inwardly, especially before I lacked direction and insight and knowing what was going on. You just almost like solidify that to where I believe it is this on a spectrum, like some of these people that share stories online, like people that can have this auto heterosexuality. I think that's very good way of like we're heterosexual man, but it's directed inward. And there's this auto sexuality that maybe is on a spectrum where some people can be, you know, have sexual pleasure with another person or only by themselves. I can go both ways. The tendency is for me to go auto, but because I know it's not healthy and it's not what I want to do with my life, I make sure that I always go out But yeah, that's the area, that's the, I had, and one more thing, I had this thought as I was thinking about this, I really, my mind doesn't think a whole lot during the day. My mind is very like quiet and I just don't think a lot. So I don't really, I've thought about a lot of these things in the past. And like, once I establish, I know what I think, then I move on and don't think about it too much. But I've kind of revisited this AGP thing a little bit. It's almost like, you know, love of oneself as a woman, it's almost like myself loving me as a woman, which might not, I still haven't fleshed this out, but it's almost like this internal myself that's not me. It is me, but I'm not looking for this. It's almost like it's simmering in the background. Myself wants me to be a woman. And I'm like, no, I don't want that. Me, no, but myself. So it is not healthy, but that's what happened when I first started thinking about sexual things.

Stephanie Winn: So I'm thinking about your story as someone who can be considered relatively fortunate amongst those with this affliction, you know, compared to some of the life outcomes for amongst those less fortunate. And I'm thinking about one thing we haven't really discussed yet is your relationship with your wife. You did say that, you know, that that is a great outlet and a natural, healthy expression of sexuality. And I think about those less fortunate, especially given that the bulk of my work is consulting with parents who are worried about adolescent and young adult children who identify as trans. And so we do have, you know, I talked to a fair number of parents of autogenophilic heterosexual boys. as well as boys who, gosh, Maya Poet just taught me this term, gynoandromorphophilia, where there's this kind of like thing that develops as a result of porn and masturbation. And I won't go into that now, but I will say that if you're in my course, ROGD Repair, there's a new lesson with Maya Poet where we talk about this. So that's where you can get that information. But, you know, thinking about the parents of boys who I talked to where the boys are completely sexually inexperienced with anyone other than themselves. And, you know, just thousands of repetitions of this very reinforcing cycle with pornography and masturbation and pornography far weirder than anything the parents knew was out there before they went down this rabbit hole. And then we do have some boys as well who develop these relationships that I call parallel play, where the boy is heterosexual, but he has a so-called girlfriend who is another trans-identified male. So it's two trans-identified males in a relationship calling themselves lesbians, even though it's actually a gay relationship. But both of them oftentimes started off heterosexual, in terms of what their interests were. And they ended up in this relationship because of going down this path of autogynephilia, porn, and masturbation. And then they are also not very socially, interpersonally, relationally mature. So, and some of them are autistic on that spectrum or have some of those traits. And so what feels safe and possible to them isn't a full-fledged passionate romantic and sexual relationship. it's more what I call parallel play or mutual masturbation where they're sort of playing with the roles of relationship in something that feels safe because deep down they're not truly passionate about this other person because their body knows he's male, their body knows that they're heterosexual deep down, but it's like this kind of Play acting and so of course we don't know exactly what happens in the sexual relationships But we have a lot of evidence that it is kind of parallel play mutual masturbation it's sort of like a childlike stage of development that the sexuality is still in so I'm thinking about all these boys and how unfortunate their circumstances are and how bleak the future looks from here because sexuality is so reinforcing it has such a powerful chemical pull those neurons are firing together and wiring together and like you said there's this imprinting that happens and I often think is this boy that we're talking about ever going to be able to have a true relationship And I think about all the hurdles that he would have to overcome, the courage he'd have to find, the willingness to face his demons, the healthy masculinity that you described, Steve, of feeling like a motivation to conquer your challenges and make something of yourself. So given that there are these boys who are on this very sad path where they might never have a real relationship, And then here you are, having struggled with many of the same things, but you're married. And especially hearing that in your 20s you had psychosis, you were really not doing well. How did you get from here to there? How did you meet your wife? How did you tell her about this stuff and your struggle with it? How did she adjust?

Steve Palmer: Well, I think really addressing the AGP is on par probably with the psychosis, as far as it being a miraculous thing. Because I will say this particular addiction, I can't compare it to all the addictions out there, but there's things that… One of the challenges with it is if I was struggling with cocaine, I could just people, places, and things, not go around. I might still have that addiction, But there's things that it's not right there, boom, I have to get in the car, go. But with me and this particular issue, it's like right between your ears. So you really can't get away from it. So it is it's very challenging. So it really has required a miracle. But in my case, you know, it's not been I haven't arrived like, hey, look, I've I've done I got this whip. I have to stay on point. And I will say this has helped me grow as a man and my relationship with God because I've had to learn how to depend on him. I've had to learn how to lean into him in my pain, in my struggle. Whereas I think if I didn't, I wouldn't really ask for this struggle if I could go back and not have it. But given that I do, I don't think I'd be as close to God as I am because I've really had to lean on him. So I think anyone out there that really is very good, it's helped me develop more empathy and compassion. I think people that are really the best at helping other people know what it's like to really hurt, even if their hurt might be a little different. so these other men that are young boys, you know young young people that have this problem are gonna have to get radically honest and I think I mean, I really don't see any other way outside of Christ to get free There are things that I can share like I was talking about physically they can do relationally Emotionally, there's probably ways that I get one book I read called Wild at Heart by John Eldridge was really helpful in me getting healing as a man. He writes about masculinity. It's not about AGP at all. But we have to learn how to be men and be fathered by God is how he phrases it. You know, I have a dad. He did the best he could just so I had no physical abuse, had no abuse. I mean, there are problems in our home, but my issues were not tied to any sort of abuse or molestation. But, you know, we need a father. Our fathers are not perfect. And there's ways that we've been wounded. We have our insecurities. And as men, we have to be validated by a father. And so I received deep validation from God as a man so that I could, you know, know that I know that I know that I'm a man. so that I can be that provider, protector, a man that has direction. It's been messy, it's been hard, but I think I did the work in my later 20s to really qualify myself for such a beautiful woman that I have, that I believe that she is a gift from God. And there's scripture that would say that the man who God respects and honors, a woman like this is a gift from God. You can be rich and famous and have all this, but to have a really good woman is a gift. So she was going through her own problems. It was like the year 2007. I think we were both going through crisis. And I didn't know what was going on with her. She didn't know what was going on with me, but she was working through her issues. And as I worked through mine, we came together a little bit later in life. She's four years older than me and she. You know, I mean, she's really helped me. I have one video I watched before this interview that a man with my problems that gets married is going to be a married man with the same problems. So getting married is not the solution. And oftentimes you hear, unfortunately, about marriages dissolving and it just really being, you know, really hurtful for the woman, for the man to bring this into the marriage. But my wife does hold me accountable. She helps call out the best in me as a man. She inspires me. I want to give her my best. I'm committed to her a forever promise. No matter what, you know, we have kids and we can't I can't afford to let this take over my life. My relationship to God is first and foremost, but. But yeah, that's how I found freedom. That's how I, I don't know if there's any other way, but that's what I try and share on my channel. And I know even as I talk to other Christians, sometimes I have a hard time as I try to share some of the deeper things in the scripture. It's very practical. The things in the scripture, it's not just, Hey, believe this, say a prayer. now we get you wet, now you're saved. Unfortunately, that's how it's communicated sometimes. But the life that God offers us isn't just forgiveness, and then we just live lives of failure and defeat. He actually gives us the power to live. So it's about appropriating that, applying it. Faith is an active not just what I believe here, but what I apply. And when I believe it, God shows up. If I wait for God to show up, then I'm going to believe it. It ain't going to work. But it's kind of like you step out in faith, like, all right, I believe it. And then then it becomes a reality. So that's my experience with God. Like there are people trying to win me to Christ on campus. I was like that guy that was would, you know, debate anybody on that Buddhist guy walking around. And they would it would it would never go anywhere. But I didn't believe it, but I was like, I guess I had to get taken really low. I mean, hopefully it doesn't have to happen like that with everybody, but I was like, all right, I'm deeply humbled here. I have no, I don't know what to do. I made a mess of my life. Maybe God, I'm willing to try what you have. And as I applied it, it's like the lights came on. It's like, well, everything I was looking for in the Buddhism, the fulfillment, the peace, the joy, I experienced peace in Buddhism, but it was a counterfeit. You wouldn't know it if that's all you ever knew. But once you read the real thing, you're like, wow, that's all. So these these men that struggle with this, I really try and point them to God and know that he forget he's willing to take us wherever we're at. You know, it's not like, hey, get your life right, then come to God. And even I'm a man that struggles with this today. Like before this interview, I was really just trying to just say, you know, I'm struggling, you know, and it's uh, I'm not white knuckling it like it's like if I get off this camera I'm just gonna go and dress up and do something stupid But it is something that is a daily like it's like it almost I'd hope I'm just gonna just keep taking a day by day, you know

Stephanie Winn: Well, what I'm hearing is that you have a framework that allows for this to be contained as a daily compulsion, a daily obsession, but it's very ego dystonic for you, right? So this is a concept I have previously explained on this channel. I explained it in the course, right? That, um, I think it's interesting which psychological concepts have made it into the culture as pop psychology and which psychological concepts haven't. So, you know, and I think it's very telling because things that are easily weaponized or distorted to serve ulterior motives or serve our egos are the ones that make it into pop culture. you know, psychological concepts that you can distort so that you get to hear what you want to hear, those are really going to take off. They're going to go viral. But something like ego-dystonic versus ego-syntonic, that stays in the confines of grad school, and I increasingly worry if grad schools are even teaching this at all. But it's highly relevant here, and it's highly relevant to how we talk about things like gender dysphoria and autogynephilia, because it's fundamentally a question of how the individual is relating to their problems or to their diagnosis. Is there, at the extreme end of things, as I call it in my episode with Dr. Christopher Kalibi, illness identity, right? That would be ego-syntonic, fused with the ego. Do you believe that you are your problem or your diagnosis, that it gives you a sense of identity? Because if so, you're going to be very reluctant to let it go. Or you might be proud. You might be proud of it, right?

Steve Palmer: That's a lot of mental health, unfortunately. Yeah.

Stephanie Winn: Yeah. Right. Whereas on the opposite end of the spectrum, and this is how I think about a lot of obsessive compulsive disorder and that spectrum of syndromes, if you will, when it comes to things like intrusive thoughts that conflict with your identity, your sense of who you are, that's what we call ego dystonic. Ego dystonic stuff can be a problem too, but at least there's a sense of identity that's distinct from the nature of the problem. And that's really what I'm hearing that distinction is for you, is that you have a sense of identity rooted in masculinity, responsibility, and faith, and duty to family. And that's where you're choosing to keep your identity rooted. And I think a lot of trans rights activists don't want to believe that that's a choice. They don't see it as the more appealing choice, maybe because they haven't developed that sort of acquired taste for responsibility, including responsible suffering and sacrifice. They don't know the fulfillment. that comes out of realizing that your life is about serving something bigger than yourself. And so that's where some, I think those little, you know, what feels feels like little demons in the Reddit forums with the, oh, just give in to the temptation, be a cracked egg, you know, like, that feels like it's coming from that is the easier path, you know?

Steve Palmer: Yeah.

Stephanie Winn: Yeah, and so many people want to choose the easier path and don't have a higher taste.

SPEAKER_01: Even though it's a very hard path.

Stephanie Winn: It is a hard path in the long run because if you're not willing to accept delayed gratification, if you need instant gratification, then instant gratification leads to suffering.

Steve Palmer: Yeah. Yeah. Life's going to be hard. And that I think one video I made, I was talking about, you know, it takes a lot of work to really sustain and maintain a feminine persona, especially as a dude. That's not natural. Didn't grow up that way. But, you know, I could, you know, mimic the voice and do things. But it takes a lot of energy, a lot of work. That's exhausting. So I was like, I might as well just focus this energy on being a man and being a good man. If I'm going to focus all this energy, you know, they could we could focus that in the right direction.

Stephanie Winn: Yeah, it's so interesting that you point that out because so many of the parents I talk to, their sons are also, you know, they're just as masculine as you in their traits, habits, behaviors, things like that. And we talk about this, right? Like how exhausting it must be to think about putting all that energy into trying to come across a different way. And just for what? Just to feed this kind of hungry little demon of a fetish?

Steve Palmer: It's empty. Yeah, and the people that have the best testimony and the best perspective I found with AGP are those that have transition and detransition. They have the most insight and they understand reality. Unfortunately, they made some choices that they can't undo, but many of them are in relatively healthy places now and they can make do with that. But My goal is to learn from their mistakes, because I know if I decided to do that, I would learn the same things they've learned. So why do I need to do that? So I have to live in fantasy. I have to disregard reality to even start going down that road. So as I maintain that division, this is not an option.

Stephanie Winn: Yeah.

Steve Palmer: I have choice to not go that way.

Stephanie Winn: So many people have learned this the hard way. Why do you need to learn it the hard way? You could just learn it from them. I want to let people know that I actually was contacted by a listener of this podcast who is a kind, gentle, responsible young man who also struggles with autogynephilia and was appreciative of me for covering it from this angle. I think You know, you are bringing this underrepresented voice that there are men who, you know, and I will say the same thing was true of him, right? If you had met him at a party or walking down the street, you would never look at this guy and think that there's anything unusual about him. He seems very masculine in his presentation. And, you know, these are men with good heads on their shoulders, good hearts, right, who have this affliction. And it can potentially all lead back to a moment during adolescence, which is part of why as a parent, you have to protect your children from Internet influences. Yes. You know, and there are men who are looking for help. And so this man contacted me to ask for a good therapist referral for him. And I was happy and honored to, you know, look within my network and see if I knew anyone who would be a good fit. Because I think, you know, for as much as amongst gender critical activists, we do sometimes, you know, we get we get tired and we let loose and we make fun of the trunes with their nastiness and their mockery of women. But for all of the sort of loud, vocal, nasty, fetishistic, In some cases, even psychopathic behavior of the loudest actors on the internet, like for all of those people representing how ugly full-blown autogynephilia can get, there are a lot of decent men who struggle with this for one reason or another, including some of the reasons we talked about today, who want help. They want good therapy. In some cases, they want faith. They want guidance. They want to live a righteous life. They want to experience genuine love with a woman. They want to experience responsibility to children as a father. And they deserve support. So I'm really thankful to you for giving them a voice.

Steve Palmer: Yeah, so I'm definitely over the years on my YouTube channel. It's I can't put statistics on it, but it seems like probably. Two or three out of 100. That contact me and I've talked to him over the years and there are other men that have similar stories I do. But all of us kind of, it helps me to talk to these people sometimes too, because it can get kind of lonely. And it can get, it is, I mean, we all, there's all sorts of different struggles people have, but this one, it can be pretty hellish sometimes and unrelenting.

Stephanie Winn: Have you thought about starting a support group?

Steve Palmer: I might figure out some way that I could reach people like you're talking about, because it's, you know, in a zip code, you might only have a handful and a fraction of those that want to get honest. So, but yeah, maybe some online support group might be good. Yeah.

Stephanie Winn: I think it would be great. I don't know. If anyone does, if you're listening to this and you know of a support group for men like Steve who want, like he's saying, to be honest and get help for these issues, like a peer support group. I mean, I think you have the value. You have the background of having an LPC that you're not currently using, but you have that training as a therapist. And now you do a type of work that's very different. So maybe some of the space in your brain that was being exhausted by working as a therapist could be freed up.

Steve Palmer: I think I would like it. Yeah. I enjoyed group therapy. It was one of my favorite classes, you know, in school and then in groups, um, beyond all the notes I had to write afterwards. I like groups. Um, but yeah, as I maybe a couple of things that might be worth talking about here is, you know, helping these young men getting honest. There are certain just, I won't go deep into it, but certain fundamental things I had to grapple with. And, um, gratitude is very, very big because I think envy and jealousy, these things are at the root of a lot of AGP. and not having what we want, not being what we want. The grass is always greener as we get more and more grounded in gratitude. You can't simultaneously entertain envy. So that's huge. Acceptance, accepting myself, accepting, you know, so this is very huge. I think I heard an interview earlier this week from somebody that had de-transitioned and they had accepted that they would never be a woman. And that was a very deep, profound insight. They were pretty far down that road, very far down that road. But that's that's important to accept ourselves. to resolve shame tied to masculinity, depending on background. I wasn't in an environment where there was this shame towards masculinity, but more and more of our culture that's common. Masculinity is seen as toxic. And a lot of these young people have that in the background simmering that needs to be addressed. Forgiveness is huge. I think any psychological problem, like I never went into forgiveness therapy. Like some people like latch onto something and they like make that the central point. But I've done some deliverance ministry. I've had devils cast out of me. I've cast devils out of other people sometimes. I would like to learn more about how to do that. I'm trying to discern God's direction. But forgiveness is really one of the foundational things. If we have unforgiveness in our heart towards anybody, we're going to be in bondage. There's like a spiritual law in the universe. I don't understand it. But forgiveness for me, bullying, I didn't mention it, but that was really at the core, I think, of how I I went down this direction, like I was very internal focused. You know, I was very extroverted, you know, fourth, fifth, sixth grade. But come sixth grade, I was really hammered. I was kind of a late bloomer. I was always the smallest boy in my grade. So I was just the subject of a lot of bullying pretty hard for sixth and seventh grade and that coincided with this so I have to think that that So I know as I got right with God, I had to forgive these bullies. I hadn't seen in like 20 years It was like kind of weird, but it did their mind that it just came to my mind like as I'm like Alright, show me anything. I need to see God and I like flashed his image and I was like, I forgive him and I forgive you. So it's a choice. You know, we don't always feel forgiving. And so the forgiveness is huge. And then you've got a lot of good conversations on this on the Internet, but there's these. Wrong views of masculinity and femininity that it's, you know, idealized, just having it's great to be a man. It's great to be a woman. There's good things about both sides. There's difficult things about both sides. None of us get to play both sides. So. That's huge. But um, I don't know I guess I think it's that there's a few things that I would focus on in counseling and talking to people trying to figure out how to help them think more healthy about themselves and Confront, you know distortions and delusions and fantasies that drive this but you mentioned something about my wife, you know Are you curious about anything in that? I mean, she's not here. I did ask her before the interview. What's it been like to be married to me or What has this been like for you? She didn't try remember what she said, but what kind of question would you have or thought?

Stephanie Winn: Well, I mean, I want to be respectful of your family's privacy, but I'm curious about how you made the decision to tell her that this was something that you struggled with, how she reacted to that, what your kind of journey as a couple has been in navigating it.

Steve Palmer: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I, um, I got married when I was about 30. So we met online more and more of that's happening. And she, you know, so it was a good way to get online. And like we wrote, we wrote probably like a novel back and forth, getting to know each other, making sure that we were intending to get married. Like, we're not just looking to hook up, you know, um, what do you want to do? What kind of family you want to build? This is where I'm going. You want to come with. And I told her pretty early on, like it wasn't like, you know, the first week or two, but it was relatively within the first month we had. We were probably I was engaged her within five months. We had like a nine month engagement.

Stephanie Winn: I thought you said that you met in your early 20s and then didn't get married.

Steve Palmer: No, late 20s. I was like 29 when I got married. So about 30. So I guess I was 28, 29, and there was like a free eHarmony trial. So I did that and didn't see any ladies I wanted to get to know. But I guess after my trial expired, there was a message in my email saying she wants to ask you some questions. So I looked at her profile and I was like, yeah, I want to get to know her. And so I paid for a year of this subscription just to talk to her. And I never talked to anybody else but her. But but I did tell her really early on that I have this problem and it's it's I'm ashamed of it. I'm not going to let it take over my life. But I want you to know because it's something I haven't been able to shake.

Stephanie Winn: And all of this was just communicating online.

Steve Palmer: Yeah, I went to see her every three weeks in person. So we were about 250 miles apart, 250 miles. I could drive down there about four hours. And every three weeks I went to see her and hang out for a weekend. But yeah, I let her know. I was like, this might be it. I really like this girl.

Stephanie Winn: But I was like, it might be fair. In person?

Steve Palmer: Yeah.

Stephanie Winn: And how did that conversation, like what was her initial reaction?

Steve Palmer: I'm trying to remember. Like, I think she had to kind of process it a little bit afterwards. Cause she really liked me and I'd have to ask her, but I think she was like, okay. And then the next time we talked, she's like, I'm good. You know, it's okay. So I guess she prayed about it. She thought about it.

Stephanie Winn: Well, what what was it that you I mean, because I can imagine a woman having a lot of questions and concerns. Was there information that you provided up front to kind of give her some bigger context behind like how you were choosing to relate to this compulsion?

Steve Palmer: It was something that I guess I could say early on. I told her I didn't go into like every detail about it. I was like, but this is something that has been the defining struggle in my life. And if we get married, I think it's only fair that you know that I'm not going to let this get between you and I. But. I don't know exactly what I said, Stephanie, but I was transparent with her and honest, because I think it's only fair if there's any young men that have this struggle that are determined to walk in truth and put that behind them, that they have to let their girlfriend or fiance know. Um, and she's, uh, she's got her own problems, you know, like we all do. And so she's, you know, we had just a mutual, she could share and open up with me about her own insecurities. And so we've been able to, um, you know, help each other. And so I'm really thankful that I have a woman that I can be open about. She can know when something's not right about me when I'm being more evasive. I'm not, I'm just not my normal self. Like she's like, all right, what's going on? And so over the year, I mean, I'm thankful that I haven't allowed this in our intimacy. It's something that I'm very prayerful and focused about. If I'm going to be intimate with her, this is not gonna be going on in my brain. And there's something I haven't taught about on YouTube, but I will say, I don't wanna give people the wrong idea, but masturbation has been helpful to me. I'm not going to endorse that as like, hey, you need to do this. But being intentional about this, this target location there, if you masturbate in that way, it's going to further ingrain that. But now I can direct that energy outwards in my mind. I'm not going anywhere but there. And it has helped me kind of because as men, we have this sexual energy that needs to be released sometimes. That's just. And I've seen some of these men online that have AGP and they've actually found it helpful to like chemically castrate themselves and take hormones and like, because the sexual drive is just so strong. And I can relate to that. So it has to be expressed. But if I'm going to express it, it's going to be outward, if that makes sense.

Stephanie Winn: So two comments. One is that I think what I hear you describing is like a form of reconditioning. And that's all I'm going to say about that. And then to your point about how some of these men find it, you know, sort of quote unquote helpful to take testosterone suppressing drugs and feminizing hormones. This is an important point for especially the parents who are trying to understand their sons to understand because a lot of these boys do struggle with a lot of sexual compulsivity, which is understandable because they are young men and that drive is built in. My perspective on this is that historically this was one of the biggest motivators of both wonderful and terrible things, right? Like it is that drive that you have as a man that depending on the society and the individual either compels you to make something of yourself to become heroic and industrious and chivalrous and win the affections of your chosen woman or that inspires men to, you know, rape, murder, and kill and go to war. And right. So that masculine drive is such a powerful force. And these young men don't have a lot of good ways of channeling it and haven't really been sent very constructive messages and have received a lot of unhelpful messages about channeling it. So a lot of them have sort of a love-hate relationship with their own sexuality because they have this compulsivity around it. It's one of their biggest methods of self-soothing. They don't have a lot of great other ways of dealing with anxiety that are truly male-friendly. And so it becomes their self-soothing thing, but then they feel out of control of their compulsivity around sexuality. Then they have this whole like shame and pleasure around like the AGP porn and masturbation and stuff. And so then the hormones are like seen as a solution to that. And many of them do report subjective feelings of relief after they start these drugs. And it's, yeah, it's because their sex drive has been bothering them so much. And so parents simply telling their sons, well, I want you to stop because this is harmful. That is ineffective as a standalone strategy. There's a lot else that goes into really crafting a strategy where does he have any other coping mechanisms, right? Like you have to look at the role that this is filling. That's part of what makes it such a tricky beast to solve.

Steve Palmer: Mm-hmm. Yeah, so I think, you know, physical release, lifting, running, things like that have helped me. But the sexual component, you know, just being able to retrain, recondition myself has been helpful. I think zapping your libido is foolish. It's not it's not good for my wife. It's not good for me. I mean, testosterone is very important to a man, not just sexually, but intellectually. I think there's more testosterone receptors in the brain that are tied to just, you know, cognition and memory and very important for our health, bone density, blood, just taking these drugs. I've seen some men. Hey, I'm not going to I'm not going to knock them, you know, because I think without God, that's really the central thread. Like I'm doing something here that shouldn't be done. It's like taking Zyprexa for seven years and getting off of it. There's things that I can respect that with this AGP, it's tenacious. I've had to develop a toolkit to fight it on multiple fronts, biopsychosocial, spiritual. But yeah, on the physical side, it is, especially as a teenager, I have found to increase my testosterone. There was a time where I got it measured and it was low. And it was in my early 20s. I was already low. I was working night shift. I think that was a big part of it. There's been a couple of times I've been tested since then, and it's in a normal range. But I know that just taking care of that has helped me to be stronger as a man. And so actually, I'm going to go 100% as a man, and having testosterone is going to help me. I think, yeah, so That's not the solution, but.

Stephanie Winn: And having testosterone, it's gonna help you, but it's also going to mean a higher sex drive, right? Which means you have to be willing to take risks and channel that to try to achieve. And I'm very grateful to know that you and your wife have such a good relationship. And I want that for the young men out there, but they have to first face their fears of ambition.

Steve Palmer: Yeah, so I think, yeah, was I about 30? Well, I guess I was 21 when I really started to get honest. So there's a lot of, I'm kind of better late than never, I guess, we learned some of these things. So I guess I wasn't ready to get married till 30, because I still had all my 20s to like get more on point, to just become more disciplined, and learn a work ethic, and be more dependable.

Stephanie Winn: And- Well, and you talk about your honesty, and I think that's what, that's what people can criticize about you because you are being real. You're not selling some magic bullet, right? Which like a lot of people on the internet have something to sell. So they're like, this one trick will completely change your life. And you're not here to sell anything. You're here to give your personal testimony. So, you are saying, no, this didn't solve. I haven't done anything that solves. There's no universal solution to this. It's a struggle. But here are the choices that I'm making. And these are choices. And you can make choices that are more congruent with your values as well.

Steve Palmer: Yeah, so I would like to meet other men. It's just be cool to hear kind of compare notes that are getting honest about it. So I think you mentioned that support group. I'm gonna pray about that. Think about that because I do find it fulfilling and rewarding. My wife is a little concerned because she's like, the more that you're involved in helping people, the more likely you can kind of slip into it yourself. Oh, that's a good point. I gotta be smart about it. There are times where I have to take a step back. And I know she's just, you know, yeah, she, you know, as ladies can get kind of worried and just kind of, this is threatening my security. And I respect that she's not 100% wrong, but at the same time, she's not 100% right. Because as I am helping people and I gotta be doing the work myself, if I'm gonna be qualified to be of any help, I gotta be practicing it. So I am more on point, like before I interview, I'm just trying to be more on point so that what I'm talking about, is congruent with who I am. And thank God for his grace, because it has been like about every two or three months right now, I have kind of like a bad weekend where I let my mind and I just let that grind and that just pulled me down. And so I'm trying to figure out what's gonna be the next point for me to pivot past that. I don't think I have to do that indefinitely, but that's where I'm at right now.

Stephanie Winn: OK, well, you know, maybe you're not the person to lead a support group right now, but maybe there's someone listening who gets the inspiration, who's in a good place to offer that kind of service. I think this is a good place to wrap up, unless there's anything else on your list of things that you wanted to make sure to say.

Steve Palmer: A quote here, a lady named Dorothy Height. I don't know who I saw on Wikipedia, but she was in, I think, civil rights. And she had something that says, greatness is not measured by what a man or woman accomplishes, but by what he or she has overcome. So I think, you know, in life we have our own challenges. And as we, I think that's a good measuring stick. We're not gonna be perfect, but as we make it and as we get honest and do the work we need to overcome and finish our race. We went down to Memorial Day today to the cemetery. Just good for us to be, have a sobriety about life that there is an end point. I know there's a heaven and hell. I know some of the things that do keep me going is that I know I'm gonna stand before God. To who much is given much is required. God has dealt with me. I haven't even touched on some of the things he's told me specifically about this. He has equipped me to be a man of God. But if I decide to, you know, default and turn to myself, there's consequences. So I'm not I'm not afraid of going to hell. But I also know that there are there are consequences, you know. We're going to have challenges in life, and I think that our true character and grit is kind of measured on whether we're just willing to do the work that we need to do to overcome them.

Stephanie Winn: Very well said. Thank you, Steve. So where can people find you?

Steve Palmer: Yeah, I think in the notes, I'll provide my email address. Really, I don't have social media. I'm willing to take a one-off email if it gets to the point where I'm just getting like several a week and I can't keep up. But my experience has been that even with my email address posted on my YouTube video, I don't get a whole lot. I have a YouTube channel to be posted on there. But yeah, I appreciate you meeting with me. Fair enough.

Stephanie Winn: So we'll include your YouTube channel and your email address in the show notes. Perfect.

Steve Palmer: All righty. Well, thank you.

Stephanie Winn: Thank you so much, Steve. It's been a pleasure. Thank you for listening to You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist. If you enjoyed this episode, kindly take a moment to rate, review, share or comment on it using your platform of choice. And of course, please remember, podcasts are not therapy, and I'm not your therapist. Special thanks to Joey Pecoraro for this awesome theme song, Half Awake, and to Pods by Nick for production. For help navigating the impact of the gender craze on your family, be sure to check out my program for parents, ROGD Repair. Any resource you heard mentioned on this show, plus how to get in touch with me, can all be found in the notes and links below. Rain or shine, I hope you will step outside to breathe the air today. In the words of Max Ehrman, with all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world.