You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist

Dr. Christian Conte:
There is a balance, and being skeptical of your own ego is the place to start. Is what you know perfect wisdom? And if it's not, then be open. So that's why I love the word maybe. Maybe what you believe right now is true. Maybe it is. But maybe, just maybe, it might not be. The nuance of intellect that occurs when you infuse the word maybe is you take yourself from being stuck in ego to going, no, it is possible. Like, I really believe what I believe. I'm passionate about my beliefs. So it's not like I half have beliefs. I'm open. I could be wrong.

SPEAKER_04: You must be some kind of therapist.

Stephanie Winn: Today, I'm excited to welcome back not one, but two guests we have with us here today, Dr. Christian Conte, henceforth known as Doc, which is super fun, because I never get to say Doc, and Jake Wiskirchen. So you may recognize Dr. Christian Conte from episode 162, Compassion and Consequences, Dr. Christian Conte on Parenting, Masculinity and Emotional Mastery. You might also recognize Jake Wiskirchen as the record holder for the person who has appeared on this show the most. He's been on three episodes before, which I'll just number. Numbers 2, 97, and 113. I'm so glad that my first day back to work after five weeks away is going to be so easy because it's two experienced podcasters who already have a really close relationship with each other. So I'm just going to sit back and relax while they take the show. I'm excited about this combination in particular, not only because Jake and Doc are great people to talk to, but also because of their beautiful friendship, mentorship, professional relationship, what have you. I think we need more beneficial mentor type relationships in this world. And so it'll be great to see the example between the two of them. So Jake and Doc Conti, welcome back.

Dr. Christian Conte: Thanks for having us. Oh, yeah.

Stephanie Winn: Let me do the little background just for those who need this background. Both therapists. Okay. So Dr. Conte is a mental health specialist, author of 12 books, creator of Yield Theory, an approach to communication and emotional management focused on reducing defensiveness. Jacob Skirshen is a licensed marriage and family therapist, as well as a clinical supervisor He hosts two podcasts, Noggin Notes and Guns and Mental Health. And he founded Zephyr Wellness and partners with Walk the Talk America, which is an organization dedicated to, well, guns and mental health, essentially, the title of his podcast. So that's a little professional background for these two. So we're going to talk about mentorship. We're going to talk about, honestly, whatever is on their agendas today, because I'm still in vacation mode.

Jake Wiskerchen: Jane, where do you want to start? I don't know. I guess I'll start by saying thanks because before I inadvertently figured out that X terminates accounts if you don't reactivate them after 30 days, I had amassed quite a following between you and Josh Slocum. I appreciate your friendship and I appreciate the platform to be able to share things like Walk the Talk America, which for those of you who are interested go to WTTA.org That's the it's a nonprofit that's bridging the gap between firearms ownership and mental health care truly at our core were suicide prevention we're but we're trying to get upstream from that by Connecting gun owners with mental health concepts so that they don't think that they're gonna lose their their rights And and I and I really truly have you to thank for that and I also thank Dr. Conte because Although you were a heavy influence in my life as a mentor and a professor when I was at the University of Nevada, we actually met playing softball. So we were friends first, and then I wanted to take some classes from you as electives in a previous program. And that's when I fell in love with the counseling field. So if it had not been for you and playing adult league softball, I don't know that I'd be in this profession. And you have certainly played an outsized role in my life low these many years. And that was, we're coming up on 20 and I was 2007 that we met. So it was 18 years ago. And your influence ripples into my world, my realm, my agency, my church, my family. all the people I continue to play sports with at my, you know, hobbled old age. Um, so thank you to both of you. I've learned a tremendous amount from you and, um, you're just, you're both top, top of list of people I have come to know and, and know well and trust and, uh, listen to. And that concludes our podcast. Thanks. Yeah.

Dr. Christian Conte: Nice way to wrap it up. I appreciate that, Jake. I'm 18 years, my gosh, in a blink. Stephanie, Jake's one of my favorite people on the planet. He just is. There was a fire in him as a student that he wanted to learn so badly. And it was just, I obviously had that kind of fire and I loved school because of that. but as a professor to get to connect with somebody who actually cared and wanted to know. So he would never, maybe this would be a way to epitomize the type of mentality Jake has. He would never ask what's gonna be on the test because he was learning so much more than what we were getting. Like, hey, I'll know this, this, and what else can I learn? Constantly wanting to learn and grow. And that mentality, like in life, it's difficult. The who you surround yourself with matters. So your circle matters and having people who can challenge you, that feel safe enough to challenge you, but also can be easy on you if you can't always communicate back and forth. In today's day and age, I don't think it's not a small deal to have people that it's okay if you can't get back to them right away, or if they miss a text, they're not sit there wondering about the relationship because it's solid. And if Jake and I didn't see each other for a couple of years, we'd just pick right back up and just start watching a game and no time had passed. So I'm grateful to be able to talk about this. I like that you guys thought about this idea of the mentor relationship, but I'm just excited to talk to two other therapists who care as much as I do about making a real change in people's lives.

Stephanie Winn: I want to hear more of that story of how you met and all the different forms that your relationship has taken over the years. But I want to kind of frame it as something that I noticed that there's a certain kind of discomfort that comes up for me that I think is almost like a Pavlovian response to my training as a therapist. As a therapist, we're trained not to have dual relationships with our patients. Right. And you guys might have experienced that. I know I experienced when I talk to other types of medical providers, it feels like the boundaries are looser in every other field compared to ours. Like, I mean, I've met former doctor patients who become friends, former massage therapist patients who become friends, former chiropractor patient friendships. You know, it feels like our field is the one with the strictest boundaries about once a patient, always a patient. And I feel like that mentality has infiltrated the way I treat even other relationships to the point where I've had to unlearn some of it. Do you know what I mean? So when I hear about your relationship, I'm like, wait, what do you mean? You were friends and then you had a professional relationship? How is that possible?

Dr. Christian Conte: Right? No, I'm glad you brought that up. I think it's so smart to talk about. And when I was trained in the 90s, there was some very strict, you know, you don't have this whatsoever. I even remember back when the ethical guidelines for sleeping with a former client was, it went from two years to five years. I don't know where it is now, but I remember that there was discussion around that kind of stuff. But in terms of a dual relationship that can be just as a friendship, first of all, you need to have good boundaries. And if you're the professional, like for me, being the professional in that situation, we met as friends first. He was just interested, I think, in auditing a class. So it was up to me to make sure that my boundaries, I held firm to those. And where people get in trouble a lot is if, let's say, he didn't do work or he wasn't who he is, then it would have never emerged anyway. If you would have wanted outs or shortcuts, then it does get into a problem for somebody with a dual relationship. But if you're on, like, everything is an individual experience. It really is. If you meet somebody who's driven in a similar mentality, especially around grad school, I wasn't that much older. I know I'm older, but it's not like I'm that much older. We were playing on a softball team together. So that did well. I believe we did well. So I think you being mindful of that dual relationship matters. And I don't want to like haphazardly be like, oh, whatever. It is important. But if you're ethical and you're professional and you set good boundaries, it's absolutely possible.

Jake Wiskerchen: Yeah, for me, this comes up in supervision all the time, because I own and operate an agency where I employ some of my interns. And before they're interns, they're students even in grad school, because we host practicum students doing their hours for coursework. And it's so funny. It's like clockwork. They still teach the same stuff that they did 15, 17, 18 years ago, which is no dual relationships. And they go, well, what does the ethical code actually say? And then we pull it up and it says, beware of dual relationships that could become coercive or exploitative. I said, all right. So my job is to make sure that the boundaries are clear and the way that we make them clear as we put them in print. Here's the expectations of you as a professional. Here's the expectations of you as an employee. My job also is to make sure that I don't violate those. Even if you try to, your job is to acknowledge them and not try to violate them. Right. So it's not about no dual relationships. That's not even possible in a relatively small town like the Reno Sparks area or really in life anyway. So that begets another conversation about, well, what are we trying to do? And one of Dr. Conte's favorite words and has become my favorite word in all of life, he used to say it's my favorite word in counseling, but now it's just my favorite word, which is intentionality. I'm teaching it to my kids, I teach it to everybody. It's know why you do what you do. Act with a spirit of purpose and an intent, right? So what's the intentionality behind telling people they can't have, quote unquote, two relationships with the same person, one professional, one non-professional. I won't even say it's personal, but non-professional relationship. And I think it approximates something resembling, uh, confidentiality breach. We'll just call it that. Because for some reason, I think our profession has believed itself to be the only people who retain confidential information about the people with whom they work. And it's like, I don't know. My financial advisor comes and stays at my house when he's in town. It's because we're friends. And we were friends before he entered that professional role. And we're very clear to make sure that we discuss friend stuff and financial stuff separately. And he's not going to go blabbing about my financial stuff to other people. I say hi to my orthopedist in Costco. He doesn't run screaming down the other aisle and turn his cart rapidly away from me because of confidentiality. And I think the flip side of that intentionality is I want to be an intentional human to the people I interact with. So I don't make it weird at my agency. We have a, we have a common lobby with music playing and decorations for seasonal things. And, and we greet people by their first names and we say hi to them and we help them participate in certain things as we go. Like it's a community. Like I live with the same people. I would ostensibly be treating. I'm not going to act differently around them. And in the spirit with a long spirit side, the spirit of attentionality, the spirit of authenticity. I want to be the same guy in the therapy office as I am at my kids' ball games when I'm coaching them in little league. at my church when I'm attending, in the community when I'm having a burger and a beer at the local burger beer joint called Beefy's, by the way. Um, I don't want to make it weird. I'm certainly not going to ask how your anxiety is doing when I'm at the burger beer joint nine, I wouldn't ask about your marriage at, at little league game. Right? So that's on me. That's it's on me to hold the confidence. Now, if they come to me and say, Hey, Jake, Kevin senior in a couple of years, marriage has gone great. Thanks for all the work you did. I'm going to say, great. Glad to help. I appreciate that. And that should be the end of the conversation. If they want to go advertise to everybody how awesome of a therapist I am in the middle of the sixth inning, okay, that's on you. But I'm also not going to be weird about it either and be like, hold on, hold on. My professor told me I'm not allowed to do this. So for me, I think that the world is better when we don't make therapy weird. And I think for the grad school people who may be listening to this, If you're a teacher, if you're a student, if you're just a therapist in the world, beware that you're not also inadvertently contributing to the very stigma that we're all trying to fight. It's like, why don't people want to go get therapy? It's like, because I make it weird when they see you in public. That's why. So that's my reflection on it.

Dr. Christian Conte: That's brilliant. Honestly, that's really insightful. I think the part about seeing context, so people maybe come up with this rule thinking they're going to see new people every day in a big city or something, in New York City, wonderful. But when you're in a small community, you are a part of that community. But there's a piece that's really critical, the ethical piece about the dual relationship, and that is the power dynamic in the relationship. So if you're a student and you have something that makes you feel like you have power over the professor, the instructor, now will that sway how you're graded and how you pass and how you move through your degree? That's when it becomes something wrong. Really, when you want to connect with someone because you care, because you're genuinely interested in them, I think that I have seen for years, like I watched it, I watched it when I left being a professor, all the people that needed so much stuff from me and that, you know, said this is so important to them. Those people, when I wasn't the person that was their boss or their professor, went off in their own directions, as people do with life, it just is what it is. But You have to be mindful. Does someone want to be connected? And yet here, 18 years later, I'm still talking to somebody that was in a class because it was genuine and it always was. When you have people that care, I think that's the main mission too. When you really want to care, if you're trying to get power over someone so that you can be one up on them, you know, I specialize working with people convicted of violent crimes. And my job is to read whether or not someone has got a better sense of self-control and is less likely to commit horrific acts of violence again. And one of the ways that I do that is I find ways to give people power in small ways in the interview. And by giving them, I have them see that maybe they have power over me, like, um, And I guess if this goes well, they might have me come back and talk to the whole group. Now, if I say something like that, that person now thinks that they have power. I watch what they do with it. You'll watch vastly different responses to that. Some will be like, Oh, cool, cool. I'll let them know, you know, like you're gonna, you're gonna owe me, but I'll let them know. And others will people be like, not hear it. But the point is when you see what people do with power, like if you're newly going out on a date with someone and a person comes over to the waitress, comes over to the table, how does somebody talk to somebody that they're not getting something from when they're in a position of power? You learn a lot about people that way.

Jake Wiskerchen: I'll say this too. because I was, I think I was in grad school for the right reasons. And I think I sought you out for the right reason. Um, because I respected you and I think you respected me, you gave me, I can still count on one hand, the number of, uh, teachers post high school who, you know, so college and grad school and beyond who gave me sobering ego dissolving feedback. Um, they were all at UNR. It was you, Pat Miltenberger and David Fenimore at different points in my life squared me up and said, you'd better get it together. I think you've charmed your way to this point and you're so much deeper and better than you are. And if nobody's going to tell you that, I will. It straightened me up. And you were the third one in that series. And it came in the form of a paper I wrote that I did on William Glasser. I was proud of the work that I had done, because I'd consumed a lot of content. And I thought I knew Glasser pretty well. But honestly, I mailed in the paper. I did what had been expected of me for many, many years prior to that, which was my B-level effort looked like everybody else's A+, and I knew it. And Dr. Conte shredded me. I had never seen so much red ink on a paper before. And I was, my first response was, how dare you? But then he says, you notice that the red stopped like on page six or whatever. He says, I quit grading your paper because it was so terrible. And I was like, What? But I knew I was faking and he knew that I knew I was faking and he saw right there. He's like, look, I know that you just punted on this. Uh, this is not your best effort and I expect you to try better. Now it's just so happened that most of the class had done that. And so he basically ditched all the grades and said, redo everything. And I learned a great lesson in that. And it wasn't just that I was going to be called to account for my crappy effort and knowing that somebody else expected more, but it was that someone expected more. And he did it in a kind but firm way, which is one of the tenets of yield theory. I've since applied that in therapy and in mentorship and supervision. by being direct but firm with my, I'm sorry, kind but firm with my patients, my students, my interns, my employees who are non-clinical. I just go, hey, this isn't about you. This isn't personal. I think you can do better. And it's like, man, watch people rise to the occasion when you see in them what they can't or won't see in themselves. And you do it in a loving fashion. You just say, I'm elevating the standard. I don't care that everybody else in your life has has not expected more from you. I am expecting more from you. And if I have a good rapport with that person, which he and I did, that person will respond in kind more often than not. And it's really fun to do this with like the angsty teenagers who often dig their heels in and become recalcitrant to every adult in their life. When you speak life and love into people who have never heard it before and you mean it and they know that you mean it because you have a rapport with them, man, they, they bloom. And, and, and I think I, I bloomed because of that. And had you not done that, I would have been, yet another merely above average therapist. Instead, I think I'm excellent. Pushing elite. Maybe one day I'll get to elite.

Dr. Christian Conte: And you took a moment and went in the direction that made you better. Look at heroes and villains. They all have conflict in their lives. One go one way, one go the other way. You took that and ran with it. This is a great example of when this is the information about you, if I try to separate it, because if I say this represents your writing, and you hold on to it, and then I'm giving you feedback, you feel like you have to defend yourself. But when I try to separate people from what you did, whatever, in this case, a paper, this is a paper over here, I'm not saying, that giving feedback about who you are. I'm saying, this is the work, this is what we're feedback on. And then you're more likely to receive it and say, this is where I can go with it. And I think separating people from their actions does that.

Stephanie Winn: What this brings up for me is the kindness and intimacy in challenging someone to be a better version of themselves. It requires a leap of faith on the part of the person doing the challenging that you do have the ability to see someone. And that you're not just holding them to a higher standard because you're a cruel, exacting, demanding person for whom nothing is ever good enough. That's not why you're doing this. Nor is it because you have some desired outcome for that person that's based on your personal agenda, but that you know something about them. about who they could be and whether that's in the student-teacher relationship, the supervisor-supervisee relationship, the clinical relationship, or in a family intervention, which is what I've come to specialize in as I've stepped out of the Role of being a therapist per se and more into this coaching work What I'm essentially guiding people in doing as a coach is how to conduct their own family interventions. I'm not a part of the intervention itself But people are coming to me because they're trying to design an intervention for someone in their lives And so I'm taking a radical leap of faith. It's actually multiple levels, right? Because there's the leap of faith that the person coming to me for help is knows their loved one. They know what's in their heart. They know that their spirit has a higher calling. It's not that they're trying, again, to control that based on their own agenda, but out of genuine love for this person. So there's the leap of faith that my client knows the person they care about. And there's a leap of faith that I know my client. And so there's almost like a grandfather, grandparent relationship between me and the person, the loved one of concern. So there's multiple levels there of trusting that there is an intimacy in a relationship. So we do have the ability to see one another, to know things about one another, including to know things about the future self that's trying to emerge that isn't even born yet. And there's such an intimacy in that, and there's such a kindness in believing that someone can do better. And I think That's not the prevailing narrative. Right. The prevailing narrative is that everyone needs to be told all the time that they're doing their best. And if you're not just shoring people up saying you're doing your best, that you're that you're harming them. But but there's such a deeper level of truth. And no, you're not always doing your best. Like, it's a rare human being that is always doing their best.

Dr. Christian Conte: Right?

null: 100%.

Dr. Christian Conte: And you're not, it takes courage to actually, I like the word you use, intimacy, because it doesn't have to be seen in one way. It is intimate. It's intimate to understand that someone is much deeper than an ego. So for me, I operate on seeing the psyche as a circle, the way Joseph Campbell described it. And just think of the iceberg for the audience who might not have a visual in front of you. But if you think of an iceberg, the most of the icebergs underwater so that would be analogous to the unconscious being underwater and the part of the iceberg above water that's consciousness and then the center of that the center of what's above the water is ego. That's what ego is. Ego is the center of consciousness but it's so far from the center of who we actually are. The center of who we are is way down in that iceberg or when I do it in a circle it's you know it's A visual will probably help. Somebody's listening to this going, what's he talking about? But. I got a video I can reference later. Okay. But what I see is I see people's essence. I see their true self and I really do see that. And then I watch how much someone's ego might prohibit him or her from actually getting to it. For example, if you brought your idea to me, Stephanie, I might say, well, are you looking for feedback? Or are you just looking to say that you want somebody to encourage you and say, this is great. Now, most of the standard answer is, I'm looking for feedback. And if I give you feedback that is antithetical in any way, and you get defensive, or if you justify it, then I'll probably say, in my mind, I'll be like, OK, you don't really want feedback. You just want to be. whether you're ready to grow, I might push you and say, well, based off what you just did right there, it doesn't look like you really want feedback, but that might turn the argument or turn the thing. So I really want to know if someone want feedback or not. And when I'm at the point in my life at 51, I genuinely just push people, like, go away. You don't really want something. You have to come to me and say, I really want this. No, you don't. Because when I give you feedback, if you get defensive, you're just showing me you don't really want it. But ego will convince us that, oh, I can say I want it, but I don't. I really don't.

Stephanie Winn: I'm laughing because I'm in the middle of a document articulating my coaching policies for frequently asked questions, what I really expect of my clients, what they can expect of me, what the process looks like. That document is now up to 33 pages because I'm trying to do what you're saying, right? I'm like, do you really want this? OK, because I only want relationships where you're gonna let me all the way in to do my magic, otherwise what's the point?

Dr. Christian Conte: Part of the money is your friend. Yeah, and it's tough. I mean, then you have to get into, of course, one of the challenges that any of us would face doing a document like that is would we start to get a cartoon world of this is, I accept that if you're gonna commit to me, you read all 33 pages and you had acknowledged all of that because you checkmarked your name. Meanwhile, the person's like, what do I gotta do, sign, sign, sign, you know what I mean? So it's worth being mindful that, We can't get everything in up front.

Stephanie Winn: That is why half of it is FAQ. So you can just search the PDF for the thing that you really want to know. And I already answered it. And then if you come to me later with the same question, it's in the FAQ I already sent you.

Jake Wiskerchen: This is verging on to something I wanted to address. When you guys were talking on the last podcast with each other, you talked about something along the lines of teaching psychology to the masses, essentially. And there's a motif in our field, I think, that's been around for some time that's like, we're supposed to be some sort of, wizard behind the curtain pulling levers on our patients when they come in and ask them. They're supposed to leave just magically healed and not know why. It flies right in the face of intentionality, of course. But there's also another dynamic at play here, and it's the It's the elimination of psychodynamic theory from our education. Now, we can blame the DSM authors because when they went from 2 to 3 and 3 to 4 and then 4 to 5, they gradually eliminated a lot of the psychodynamic workings that, you know, Dr. Kanti is talking about. the psyche and the psyche is Greek for soul. So psyche as it was said to be the goddess of the Greek goddess of the human soul. So say psyche, soul, mind, and then for all intent and purpose, they're, they're mostly interchangeable. Although we could have a hair splitting debate about the differences. We'll just use them all the same psyche, soul, mind. If you tack an ology onto that, you got psycheology, which is the study of the human soul, right? Well, we've kind of forgotten that because we've all gone behaviorist and behaviorism for the lay person in the audience is simply measurement of human behaviors. Like if you talk to a real strict behaviorist, they'll say everything's a behavior, including your thoughts and your heartbeat and all that stuff. So, um, that's fine. But what it turns into is quantifiable outputs. And by then, uh, by, by that, I mean, if I can measure your behaviors and I can modify the, the bad behaviors that you want to change, you know, I, as the therapist would get you to change something. to the point that you're satisfied and you're now living your life free of interference or whatever, then I can celebrate that and say, look what I did. I modified behaviors over X period of time, sustainable across many months or whatever. Therefore, I can call it evidence-based and then research funds that to make sure that it's really, really good. And behind research is dollars. So it all ends up becoming this like dollar chase and insurance, of course, funds that kind of result. And along the way, what we've lost is the depth of a human. So humans are much deeper than their outward behaviors, their quantifiable, observable actions, right? I don't want to be in a position as a therapist coming in, simply effectuating some behavioral change, you feeling good at the end of the session and not actually getting good because you don't know why you got bad in the first place and send you out the door and we cycle it back up week after week after week over many, many years. I want to send people away something approximating permanent health and healing so that they never come back. And we can always debate about whether or not people get sick later. That's fine. But, but I want to be sending people away with the armament that they can solve their own problems in their own kitchens and living rooms. Because if we truly believe in the depth of a human soul being infinite in its capacity, possibly being even divine in its creation. then there's no limit to what we can do or achieve. Why would I want to pretend that I've cornered the market on that and hide behind some curtain with levers and pulleys on a person's psyche or soul or mind? I don't want to do that. I want to teach you how to master your own world so that you, I work myself out of a job. And you guys touched on that in the last podcast. And there's some weird, like, I think it's a guild protection thing going on where it's like, well, if we teach people what we know, then we won't have a job. And I'm like, Is that so bad? Like you, you don't want to live in a community that's free of divorces and bullying on the playground. Like, come on man. So yeah, anyway, I, I'm not attached to it. I'm not attached to my, my role as therapist. It's not who I am. I mean, I'm talking about Dr. Kahn separating who you are from what you do. Uh, if I have to, you know, if I have years left on this lease at this office and I have to turn it into a brew pub and coffee shop because the whole community of Reno sparks is no longer ailing. I'll pour beer.

Stephanie Winn: I think some people are not that well-rounded and don't have that many different interests and skills and faith in their generative capacity. It's more like, I found this one thing that I can do that is a valuable service I could sell and it's all I know how to do.

Jake Wiskerchen: Then it becomes an identity.

Stephanie Winn: But I want to kind of push back on what you're just saying, because I heard you kind of posing psychodynamic and behaviorism in opposition to each other. And to be fair, to play devil's advocate here, if behavior change worked as you described, because I know you're distilling and simplifying it, but if it worked like that, then great. But I think the whole reason we have psychodynamic theory is because we don't just say, I want to make this change and then go ahead and make it, right? Like it's, we have ideas of how we want to stop sabotaging ourselves and make something more of ourselves. And then we get in our own ways. And why? It's the unconscious. It's that bottom part of the iceberg that the three of us here all have this unique ability to see. But a lot of people don't see. People are only aware, like you're saying, Doc, of the conscious ego narrative. So the behavior change stuff, I think what I really see is an opposition. I see psychodynamic theory as an essential component in understanding behavior and understanding why our words and our actions don't align with each other. And what I see them in opposition to, though, is the medical model. Like, cause I was thinking about, you know, all of, cause you were saying it's not being taught as much and, and psychodynamic theory is so great at, at putting language to these things that are churning underneath the surface. But as long as we're pathologizing, labeling, working with the way they want us to work with the medical model, which I think Jake, that you're, you're better at this than I am. Like I did it for four years and it exhausted me.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

Stephanie Winn: That's where I really see the conflict. Because as long as you're going to put that label on it, diagnose it, and say, OK, here's a treatment plan, then how are you really going to understand where these motivations are coming from that are resulting in this behavior?

Jake Wiskerchen: I hear you. And if I meant that, if I came off sounding like psychodynamic and behaviorist or mutually exclusive, that's not at all what I meant. It's that one has encroached so far that we've forgotten about the other. Fair. And they have to go hand in hand, right? They have to go hand in glove or whatever, hand and foot and mouth. No, don't put it on the set. No, they have to go hand in glove because in order to modify something, you have to take action, right? You can't just pontificate on it. You can't just like ruminate and think about, oh, well, let's find meaning. And it's like, okay, well, insight is great, but it still requires some, some action to take place. Insight is sometimes the booby prize. Cause they're like, cool. Now I know something about myself. All right, cool. You're still left with, what do you want to do about it? Um, unfortunately to your, to your point there, the medical model is something under which we, we live because we're, we all have to pay bills and that's how insurance companies see it. So you got, you know, hi, Christian, Jake, nice to meet you. What brings you in today? And you go, or whatever comes out as the problem. And we go, great, we've got a problem. What do you want to do about that? Get rid of the problem, right? That's the goal. Get some objectives. Then we do interventions. And I think a lot of times we just start with problem and we jump straight to interventions without knowing what the goal is. And so we chase symptoms. And so the medical model forces us almost to chase symptoms rather than the problems underneath the symptom, which give rise to it, which psychodynamic can address. CBT is great for dealing with your anxiety and your depression. You're smoking, you're drinking. Why you're smoking and drinking and anxietizing and depressing is something that CBT can't really answer, right? So they need to work together. And unfortunately, I think the grad schools have just moved away from this, but I want to kick it to the OG who taught me this whole thing and ask what he thinks about it.

Dr. Christian Conte: Well, I mean, if we remember at the onset of the field, yes, psychology is, Jake's nailed it, the study of the soul, and it's now morphed into the study of the mind and behavior, and even maybe more so, study of behavior. But the reason was, psychology felt insecure. It was looked at as this soft science where other sciences are showing data. So if you really wanna be a science, that's why Watson said that the mind was a black box. We forget about it. If it's a thought, it's in there, we can't see it. But you don't, you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. I think you just hit the nail on the head with that. Like you have to be able to understand, there's a reason why. And I think that the fear comes from mystery. So the unknown is scary because it's unknown. So when people, there's a great saying from Heinrich Zimmer, the mystic swims in the sea of chaos, the schizophrenic drowns in. When one's trying to control it, they're cracking up and the other says, goes with it, they go with it. And what we're not afraid of is sitting with someone in the unknown. It's okay for me to sit with you and not have an answer right away. It's okay for me to sit as you're thinking about meaning and just embrace the present moment with you. And I'm okay with that. Someone observing from the outside might say, well, what are you doing? You know, you could sit in silence with someone and what you're doing is maybe some of the most profound work of that person's life. But from the outside, they're going, what are you doing? Just what am I paying for silence there? So I think it borders on trying to understand What can we observe and see so we can check a box, a bureaucratic box? And that has always made my skin crawl. I think that's something Jake and I identified with. It's all for ego, to check some box and say they did something. I don't care about that. I care about making a genuine change. I care about helping people make a real change in their lives. And that's not always gonna be measurable by external means.

Jake Wiskerchen: We might not ever see it at all. I mean, that, that change may come to 10, 15 years later and you never hear about it. Sometimes they write you a letter, you know, that's kind of nice. Oh man, I forgot about that guy. Oh, nice to see he's married and healthy and off the drugs. Right? Like, like that sometimes happens, but it won't happen under your nose. And that's, that's frustrating because you know, You get these sociopathic insurance companies now who are going back through your notes and saying, well, you should have had him cured in six sessions. Why'd you drag it out for 12? It's like, well, he had profound trauma in his childhood. That's why. And they don't care because they want to check the bureaucratic box and they want to distill human behavior down into time plus matter plus chance or something like that. So it is insanely frustrating to continue to have to play by a system that you know is corrupt, right? And it's not authentically aligned with making actual change in a human being, because for its own goodness, we want to do that. And that's where we get moral injury, right? When your own moral compass, your own ethical guidelines are being asked to be run afoul of by some bigger corporate entity, like an insurance company, like a hospital, you know, wherever you happen to be working. And it's incredibly important to elevate our eyes and look down field and realize that sometimes we sow the seeds that get reaped later and we don't get to see the fruit that are born out. And that's really tough. It's very, very hard for us to do that. But you've taught me well how to have those boundaries and also to have faith in the infinite potential of the human psyche. And by the way, I mentioned the videos. If you go to the Zephyr Wellness YouTube channel, I've got two. There's a brief overview of the psyche, I think is what it's called, part one and part two. It's just me in front of a whiteboard diagramming what he taught us in grad school. He, Dr. Conti, taught us in grad school, and I hope I did it justice.

Dr. Christian Conte: Oh, it's excellent. Here's something that gets the little kid inside of me, that I can feel from the little kid inside of me. I have been disheartened. The higher up I've interacted with people who have high positions in the country, and I've found disappointment to see how many people really want to just check a box. I looking back through the years people have asked me why I haven't done more research around yield theory Well for a lot of times whatever I was doing was a one-man show with what the particular job I was doing We're building an international yield theory Institute now that got delayed when my wife got cancer but she's healthy now and back to that we're in route to launching that and And we will collect data. But when I look back, I say, because when I walked into a prison, for example, I'm skeptical of research. And I'm not skeptical of research like some, I'm not some conspiracy theorist sitting off in my parents' basement somewhere. My final course for my PhD, over 20 years ago now, was picking apart studies. We found that there was not a single study that you could read in social sciences that you can't pick apart and say, if you change this or this or not even change it, you see that they didn't account for this. So there was no perfect study. And then my gosh, when it was about 10 years ago, when that big study came out and said nearly 80% of The replication crisis couldn't be, yeah, couldn't be replicated. Boy, people fell apart and got angry and, and no, it's a fact. So while we're idolizing research, I'm not saying no research. I'm just saying before you idolize research, let's think about this with yield theory. It's about meeting people where they are and speaking with them, not at them. Do I need research to say that it's more effective for me to lead with humility than it is for me to come in and be like, I know everything. You need to listen to me. You need to, and not me where you are. Like, do I need research to tell me that? I remember one time I was training a group of officers and officers said, well, what's the percentage that this works? And I said, What if I tell you 87? What's that gonna do for you? What if I tell you 84? What if I tell you 91 or 28? What will that mean to you? Why do you want that number? What is that really doing? What you're really saying is, tell me that it might not work. And what I say is, of course it might not work. That's why I tell you to train physically like your life depends on it, because as an officer in a corrections facility, you're going to need to go in on somebody at some point. You can do all the yield theory in the world, with the proliferation of drugs and K2 and some of the stuff that has people out of their minds, you're inevitably going to need to, as a corrections officer, go in and subdue an inmate physically at some point. That's just a part of what it is. But for the most part, this works tremendously well. Whether I have piles of research to support it or not, I have tons of anecdotal evidence. But the reality is that meeting people where they are, leading with humility, rather than with ego and seeking to help them gain new information from whatever this they have. That all matters and that's all helpful and it's difficult to persuade me otherwise simply because there's not a percentage of numbers behind it.

Jake Wiskerchen: We get into the same thing with WTTA. We go and solicit donations from gun manufacturers and retailers and wholesalers, and some of them get it right away. They're like, yep, this is a problem. We want to help gun owners not be averse to care. We want to connect them with services, not be afraid to go seek counseling. And this is great. We're going to stop gun suicides the best that we can without government intercession and restriction, right? Because the firearms community does not want .gov solving the problems. It's not solving anywhere. I mean, you look at suicide rates across the country for the last 20 years, they've only gone up. Nothing's working, right? So let's try something else. Let's try talking. And then others will say, well, show us your research on how these screening, because we offer free and anonymous mental health screenings, show us how many screenings you've conducted and how many lives are saved. It's like, you want me to prove to you that something didn't happen? And you're the ones who don't want data collected on your own people. It's mind bending. And we know that it works because anecdotally, we get lots of contact through social media and email saying, if it weren't for your organization, if it weren't for your podcast, if it weren't for that one time you did that one thing, I wouldn't be here, right? And that's, that's really cool. And it's like, how can you not wrap your head around funding this? That's so crazy to me. And interestingly, we do want to get more research. And it's just very, very hard to, to convince people to bridge that gap. It's like their, their minds will go there. Their egos have decided that They know something about a certain thing, and they're just not interested in changing.

Dr. Christian Conte: You're right on the money. Let me just say, while I have this energy on this, I really believe that discernment is the most important skill that we can teach people. Because we live in such an either or, all or nothing, people really think in these splitting terms, either this side or that side, you're good or bad, right or wrong. And the reality is that There's a middle ground. There is a middle ground. And I say discernment because, for instance, maybe someone's half listening to this right now, and maybe their confirmation bias is that I would say that research isn't necessary. That's not true. Research is wonderful. It can be great. I love to read research. What I'm saying is that you have to be skeptical of it. And you have to understand that a couple things here or there, you change your p-value here or there, you set your standard a certain way, and it can drastically change that research. I've talked to big-time lobbyists in this country who tell me, not secretly, not hidden, my job is to change statistics. I use statistics to manipulate data. So the general public to not be aware of that can get caught up in, well, the white coach syndrome. Well, if a research institution or a scientist or someone says it, then it must be true because they spit out some numbers. What I say is, let's have healthy skepticism. Maybe some stuff needs research and studied, but some stuff Sometimes we're wasting time. My grandma was like, I never finished high school. And I read somewhere that some person said that people like to be in groups. And there was a study done about it. She was like, I never finished high school. And I could tell you people like to be in groups. Do you really need research about that? I think it's usually for the people's own glorification of the ego to say, look, I've done this. And not everyone, because there's some wonderful research out there. And that's the thing. It's not all or nothing. There's a balance.

Jake Wiskerchen: Bring that to mentorship. I am very cautious not to overload the fledgling clinicians with skepticism too early, but sometimes I have to because they're facing something that is tweaking something in their ego. They're getting some cognitive dissonance. My memory of grad school was they hold the standard way out to the nth, right? It's like aspirational, everything, and it becomes almost overly rigid black and white. And I get why they do that. They don't want us playing fast and loose with the rules too early when we don't know why they exist in the first place. And then the idea is over time, you're supposed to gradually move away from the rigidity into something approximating a more comfortable sense of self as therapist, I guess you could say. My sense is that the community of therapists has not moved off of grad school. And I don't really know, other than what I do here personally in my clinic, I'm looking for some broad, generalizable, generally applicable advice here. How do somebody, how do somebody, how do people who are mentoring others into a profession balance the need for anchored principles against the need to question said principles when necessary? How did you do that as a as a professor, as a mentor.

Dr. Christian Conte: Ego. Ego is the first place to start. Like, first of all, I always ask people, are you challenged? Be skeptical of everything. Be skeptical of everything I say. But are you skeptical of your own ego? Because if you're not skeptical of your own ego, now here's where discernment comes into play. Because if you say, so you're saying to doubt myself, I thought I was supposed to have confidence in myself. You can both have confidence in yourself. Right. Because I could go too far too, right? The information you know is perfect. Of course. So it's, it's within a, it's within a balance and that balance is not a black and white thing. It's going to be different for different people. You're right. The way you can't just have people play fast and loose with the rules at first, because they don't understand why they're there. So what do you do as a teacher, professor, a mentor, you teach them, this is the basis. This is why we have this rule. Um, You know, for example, I used to say in ethics, here's why not to sleep with your clients. It's not, I'll tell you don't sleep with your clients, but here's the reason why. It's because your clients come in and you give them all your attention. And so they start to think, well, this is how you are in real life. You're going to focus on me the entire time, like at no point. And you are really wonderful. You care, you listen, you pay attention. You remember what we talked about. It's almost like you're writing it down after we leave. And so you really remember what we said. And so they idolize this relationship. And the truth is that's not who you are. You're so much, you know, my wife would say, I'm not a great listener. I'm very genuine with listening to people's energy. I can genuinely do that. But details, I'm terrible details. Now, some clients love that. Cause they're like, thank goodness you don't, you forget my flaws too. And I'm like, of course I forget it. But then some people are like, I can't believe you didn't remember I went there. But the reality is, you know, There is a balance, and being skeptical of your own ego is the place to start. Is what you know perfect wisdom? And if it's not, then be open. So that's why I love the word maybe. Maybe what you believe right now is true. Maybe it is. But maybe, just maybe, it might not be. And the nuance of intellect that occurs when you infuse the word maybe is you take yourself from being stuck in ego to going, no, it is possible. Like, I really believe what I believe. I'm passionate about my beliefs. So it's not like I half have beliefs. I just, I'm open. I could be wrong. Like I, and when it comes to spiritual beliefs, I have a very profound spiritual belief. Um, I think if I'm wrong in the end, I also believe in a deity. That's going to be like, Hey, listen, you were human. You really weren't trying. I saw that. So, but I don't think I'm going to be punished for being wrong about what I've learned with what I have. Um, yeah, I don't know if that's helpful.

Jake Wiskerchen: Well, yeah. And this ties to something, I mean, Stephanie, you're, I don't know how to frame this. You're working in the gender critical space, and Dr. Conti will know this because he taught it to me, but I'm old enough to remember when we used to teach people to help their minds match reality, not bend reality to match their minds. And so we're having to challenge what has now become an orthodoxy, but it's an inverted orthodoxy. And you, I imagine, are mentoring in some shape or form some of these parents that you're working with, including maybe the clients themselves. on it's almost an inversion you're having to unwrap what was true in the first place and now is no longer true while also staying non-attached and using the word maybe How are you doing that? Sorry, I just took over the podcast host chair. But I'm curious, how do we balance this? How do we balance being anchored in something, also being non-attached, and inviting ourselves to change while we know that we know that we know that what we're doing is true and accurate, and we want to offer this structure to people who don't have any? Are you asking Stephanie first, or are you asking me? I'm asking Stephanie first, yeah.

Stephanie Winn: Well, I don't quite understand the question.

Jake Wiskerchen: Okay, because that was pretty convoluted, and that's why. I can give you a shot at what I heard.

Dr. Christian Conte: Yeah, go ahead. I can give you a shot at what I heard. So I think the question is, how do you stay anchored in what you know, challenge people who are off base from what is reality, at the same time be open yourself that maybe your perspective is off, but deliver it in a way with compassion so that they can actually hear it?

Jake Wiskerchen: See, that's why I listen to him and not the other way around.

Stephanie Winn: Like how do I do that in my role? Or how do I teach people to do that? I'm still like sleepy vacation brain.

Dr. Christian Conte: Stay on sleepy vacation brain. Let me tell you how I would do it instead of you jump in if this is something similar.

Stephanie Winn: Maybe then I'll have something to add, yeah.

Dr. Christian Conte: So what I would do is this. And I do this. I sit down with someone, and maybe they are You know, maybe there is a young man who says, I think I'm a female. So I can be kind to this individual. I can give love and compassion and kindness, but I can still hold fast to say that a man is a man, a woman is a woman. If someone comes into me and they are struggling with an eating disorder, and they have anorexia, and they say, I look great, and this is wonderful. When did we ever in the field say, oh, you're right? They say, I'm fat. I go, yeah, you're fat. You should stop eating. Keep staying away. I would never support that. I would challenge it with love. The problem is that people believe that when you challenge something that they're thinking, that you're challenging their essence and everything they are. Listen, I'm giving you love. I'm not saying you're a bad person, you're wrong. I'm not saying you're dumb or less than. I am saying that you are redefining reality, and that's not the experience that I have of it. And one of the examples I've given on a podcast before, I don't know, Stephanie, did I talk to you about the woman who was seeing 27 men in her cell I don't know if I talked about it in this one, but I was working in a women's prison and a woman was saying that she, in maximum security, solitary confinement, was saying that there were 27 people in her cell with her. So the officers were like, oh man, she's out again saying a bunch of stuff and accusing us and says there's 27 people in there. And they're laughing off. They don't really know how to handle it. So I walked over to her and I said, with yield theory, we put ourselves behind the eyes of the other person. So I imagine, listen, who am I'm not the sayer of reality. And I said, I can't, I understand that you're saying there's multiple people. She says, there's 27 people in here. And I said, I want to tell you that first of all, I can't imagine what that would feel like in that space and have that. I want to be honest with you that I don't see anyone else in there but you, but I respect that you may be experiencing this in some way and I'm not the sayer of reality, but I can tell you with all honesty, I don't see a single other person but you. And because I approached it with kindness and love, she took a moment, took a deep breath and said, Maybe it's in my head. I do do this sometimes in my head. I said, first of all, that's amazing because if it feels real to you, but you can still catch yourself to call yourself on that, that's pretty profound. That's pretty amazing. And then she felt really honored with it. She was like, well, yeah, I know. It's just sometimes I get overwhelmed. And maybe I exaggerate a little bit. And I was like, first of all, I'm really blown away by your courage to be honest. So the whole interaction was, I'm gonna treat you with kindness and love, but I'm not gonna pretend like I see people in the cell with you that I don't see who aren't there. And I think the same thing can happen around the gender discussions. You feel a certain way. I respect that you feel a certain way, but I'm not just gonna jump in and say that that reality is different because you feel that way.

Stephanie Winn: Many of you listening to this show are concerned about an adolescent or young adult you care about who's caught up in the gender insanity and therefore at risk of medical self-destruction. I developed ROGD Repair as a resource for parents just like you. It's a self-paced online course and community that will teach you the psychology concept and communication tools the families I've consulted with have found most helpful in understanding and getting through to their children, even when they're adults. Visit ROGDRepair.com to learn more about the program and use promo code SOMETHERAPIST2025 at checkout to take 50% off your first month. That's ROGDRepair.com. here reminding me a little bit of how I worked with a patient with schizoaffective disorder who would actively hallucinate during sessions sometimes and it was interesting because she lived in a world full of different characters angels and devils and devils playing tricks disguising themselves as angels and these little furry creatures and And when she was in my office, she would see the furry creatures, which were the friendly, cute, little, you know, almost childlike entities that brought out her maternal side, her playful side. And they liked me. You know, she would hallucinate that these creatures liked me. So it was all her psyche kind of projecting itself into these hallucinations. And rather than challenging her directly, I was able to introduce the phrase consensus reality, meaning what everyone else can agree is and is not, right? And we were able to get to that point of acknowledging that there is this consensus reality in which I'm here, the desk is here, you're here, but these creatures are not part of consensus reality, they're part of your own subjective reality. And we were able to do some kind of experiments where she was able to get the entities she was perceiving to kind of cooperate a little bit more. I was hoping to get her to have a little bit more mastery over her hallucinations. because with the cooperative cute little animal creatures, she could ask them politely to go sit in a basket and stay still, you know, and then they would stay there. And so, you know, that's a little bit more mastery, like compared to, because she would do things like leave out food for imaginary beings that had demanded that she provide them food. And then her family would find like wasted food left out overnight. And so I was trying to get her to feel like she could negotiate with her hallucinations. So you just reminded me of that. I mean, it didn't get very far, but she did seem to experience some reduction in distress.

SPEAKER_01: I'm curious, how did that end or not? Did it not tie up neatly?

Stephanie Winn: No, it didn't tie up neatly. I mean, the prognosis for schizophrenia and schizoaffective disorders is just very poor. It's lifelong dependency on family and caregivers. You know, it came to a point where I did have to tell the family I am moving on with my career and this is, you know, my role that I've been sort of elected to here is more like being that friendly face that, you know, she experiences as a kind person to interact with and I understand loneliness is a major factor here, but there's a difference between psychotherapy, and keeping someone company. And so these were some of the ways in which I kind of fought that uphill battle of trying to say, let's work on something. But when you're dealing with someone whose mind is that kind of far gone, where they can't really hold on to a thought for very long, You can't really do psychotherapy. This was the most that I was able to accomplish. But I think the main role that I provided was kindness and companionship. So I worked with the family on finding other sources of kindness and companionship, like professional caregiving services of just people who maybe aren't therapists but are nice and will come to your house and help you fold your laundry and stuff like that, because that's where some of the need fulfillment was coming from. I hope I haven't shared too much.

Dr. Christian Conte: No, I think, and I think you really emphasize that kindness. That is profound. I also think it's really cool to see how those friendly creatures came out around you because you were a presence of kindness. And that was kind of a deeply experienced internally by her to have the friendly creatures out around you. That speaks volumes to the energy you must have brought to that. Jake, coming back to your question about the conversation that we have about with people and things that are not in touch with consensus reality, the difference is you see a lot of places where people are struggling. There is a social contagion to it. That's a fact. I know there is research that shows that studies, again, you can be skeptical to study, but there's evidence to show that when people cut, when young people are cutters, not to do that in groups because they tend to one up each other. And then all of a sudden, well, you think you're cutting, I'll do it twice. Well, I'll do it three times and I'll do it. I mean, to that point, at that one prison I was in with women who were struggling with the most self-harm I had ever experienced, and I specialize in it, There were three women who had pens in their arm, like shoved a pen in her arm. Another woman was like, you think you're in pain? Well, I'm gonna do it to my arm. And a third woman, you think you two are doing, so the social contagion of talking about suffering, because when we're suffering and people pay attention, then we get empathy, we get sympathy, and so that feels good. They're not wrong or bad for wanting people to have attention or wanting to feel good. Um, that's a normal, healthy thing. I think the conversation is, it's look at the social contagion. How do people treat it? Like, do you treat it with enabling? So if a child comes in is confused, do you automatically run with whatever that thought is or say, you're not even old enough to get a tattoo. So we're not going to consider longterm things for your health. Because right now, as your parent, I see what's best for you. And if you're struggling with that identity, let me talk to you about it. There's no harshness on accepting if a child has different desires or anything. I'll support that all day. But before we make these life-changing things that are irreversible, I think it's worth us having some pushback in the field and challenging, why did we just stop? Why did we, did they stop doing the same thing with anorexia? Did they change that now too? Is it somebody able to say, no, I just feel like this is how I look best. And you're supposed to affirm that.

Stephanie Winn: Well, and the way that people are treated clinically when they have both so-called gender dysphoria and an eating disorder is they often the professionals enable the eating disorder because they say it's a manifestation. They claim that it's a manifestation of the gender dysphoria as if the gender dysphoria is this underlying Cause and and tell this person receives so-called gender-affirming care. They're just gonna keep you know starving themselves because they can't they can't stand these Feminine features or what have you but I also want to bring it back to Jake's question and because I realize you You know, I didn't really answer from my own perspective And what I will say is that although I haven't read any of Doc Conti's books And I can't say that I know what yield theory is I do know that I agree with the premise of yield theory and you know this idea of Reducing defensiveness is a primary goal of the work that I do in teaching and coaching. And my program, ROGD Repair, it's a lot about communication tools to reduce defensiveness. And what you'll often see in these families is ways of communicating that do not work. They're either outdated because they're based on an earlier stage in your child's development when you could just tell them what to do and they would just trust and believe you. And, you know, you're not taking into account their age and developmental stage. And part of working with rather than against that age and developmental stage is recognizing there is a good reason that your child is pushing you away and, you know, questioning your values and worldview because they are trying to figure out how they're going to make it in the world without you. And that is a perfectly valid thing for them to do. It's what they should be doing at this stage in life. There's a good reason for everything your child is doing. And when you can see that reason, this is where psychology comes in. This is why I teach psychology as part of my course and part of my coaching. When you understand the psychological reasons that people are doing what they're doing, then it's easier to have compassion and patience for them, and then you can start to think more creatively about, how do I propose solutions? In the same way that when your child was four, maybe you got them to eat their vegetables by making them look like animals. Similarly, when your child's 14 or 24, you're going to have better success passing along your ideas if it doesn't feel like they're coming from you. So the idea is to appeal to that part of your child to first of all, for your own sanity, number one, recognize that your child's not all in, even if they seem like they are. Because with that iceberg, when we see someone doubling and tripling down, seeming overly confident, overly certain, what do we think? We think it's coping, it's compensating for something, right? Nobody who's solid, grounded, well-rounded and mature comes across as that confident about anything, right? Because as you guys have both demonstrated throughout this conversation, maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong. That's what a mature person thinks. So it's an immature, insecure person who's going to come across with that much confidence. Your job as the parent, grounding yourself in the tools of psychology, which is what I teach, is, again, first and foremost for your own sanity to recognize that they're not entirely that certain, to see that unconscious element that they're overcompensating for. And that will help you find the patience you need to deal with a situation and realize that you're appealing to that part of them that wants a way out, that wants a better solution. And when you're proposing those better solutions, you're not proposing it as yourself. You are expertly designing your lifestyle and your interactions with your child so that they can stumble upon solutions that they feel that they have discovered for themselves, that feel authentic for them, that feel like they're a better way of meeting those needs. And that's what the whole work is about.

Jake Wiskerchen: Yeah, it's really hard when you're combating a family system when the system itself has become that echo chamber that's created what, you know, Dr. Conti referred to as a social contagion. You can have social contagions within family systems that create maladaptive or unhealthy patterns of behavior. And even not just families, but organizations, businesses, um, churches, governments, departments within governments can be disordered themselves. And so you have these individuals, within these systems to be like, I need help. It's like, man, yeah, we're fighting a system that's bigger than you, right?

Stephanie Winn: And that's part of why one of the main things I have parents do is look at what they could possibly improve on their own side to improve the family dynamics. Look at what need your child is trying to fulfill. Just like we were taught to think, you know, in family systems therapy, right? You look at the symptom of the identified patient as a manifestation It's a misguided attempt to solve some kind of problem, maybe unconsciously for the family. A child senses that their parents are on the verge of divorce, so they manifest an eating disorder as a way to get the family to focus on them and stay together. This is not our first rodeo in terms of situations like that emerging in family systems. This is just another manifestation. So look at what problem could your child's behavior possibly be an attempt to solve. And then is there anything you can do to take that problem off of their shoulders?

Dr. Christian Conte: Just as an interesting technique that I've done with families, when I feel like the parent, when I'm getting a lot of resistance from the parents acknowledging that they're playing a role, I will do this. And I will say it even something like this. I was thinking maybe we do this exercise where we. we're almost gonna assume that we have, like for example, I might assume that I'm the problem. And this is, I'm not saying that I am, I'm just saying I'm just gonna, now you see how I'm approaching all of this is so that I'm stumbling for it, like I'm just trying to, we get right through the defensiveness to say, so we're just gonna set up, if it was you, like if we had to get a million dollars and say, this is, it is me, what could you even possibly be doing that might contribute to this situation? And I've had in that particular technique, I've had a lot of success of having even highly resistant people say, well, if I had to pick out one thing and then they pick it out, or if they say it's really off, the rest of the family goes, ah, and then they're able to dialogue around that because we do want to bring some shine, some light with it. You know, in a world where people see clips and then run with extreme thoughts, If someone took a clip of a brief moment of anything that we're talking about, they could run and say, well, I can't believe you don't care about this or that. But no one who looks into anything that we're doing, no one looks at anything that I'm doing could possibly come up with, I'm anything but compassionate. Because my experience in 27 years of sitting with people in some of the darkest places and going into prisons and fighting for people who can't fight for themselves has demonstrated I'm not sitting on some pedestal judging someone who's maybe off base with reality or consensus reality. I'll say it with love and kindness, but I'm doing you a disservice if I play that whatever your reality is, even though I don't see it, that I'm just supposed to play like I do. I'm not being authentic if I do that. And I think it's a disservice to people to not be. The greatest gift we give people is our authentic present self. I think that is such a gift. And Stephanie, you and I might've hit on this the last time, but you really are right on the money with parents because the number one parenting skill across a meta-analysis, different countries, different places, was love, how much love they give their children. Makes sense. The number two parenting skill across cultures was how parents handled their own stress. And when you hear that, you go, oh my gosh, you're right. I am contributing to it. Like Jake said, it might be an echo chamber within the family. I might be contributing to it without even realizing it.

Jake Wiskerchen: I want to highlight something here because if I'm in the listening audience, I'm going, yeah, that's all great and well, but every time I try to be my authentic self and I really know that I'm being awesome and I'm truly humble, all it does is beget rage from other people, right? Because they can't stand it. The insecure people cannot stand being around secure people. It's a tale as old as time. So I know my answer to this, but I want to know your guys' answers, because I want to just check myself and see if there's also some other better ways to deal with it. How do you deal with it? I'm going to assume you've dealt with it, because I've had enough conversation with you over the years, both of you, that I think you're doing it well. You're not attached. You're loving. You're compassionate. You're kind. You're authentic. You're always striving to improve. And that just pisses other people off who aren't there yet. So how do you deal with People who have maybe denigrated you talk trash you hear something from the rumor mill or maybe they say it straight up to your face like You're not as good as you think you are come down off that pedestal and you're like, I'm not on a pedestal Like how do you handle that? in a you know, in a way that's healthy, especially if you have to maybe maintain that relationship. If it's somebody you work for, it's a family member, you know, how do you guys deal with that?

Stephanie Winn: So what I'm hearing in that is that you're talking about envy and competitiveness.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, probably.

Stephanie Winn: And I don't know that, I mean, I think it's important to be aware of these drives, and you know we're talking as three people who all specialize in understanding the workings of the unconscious which is not a skill that everyone's going to have not a skill that everyone's going to be interested in developing or have an equal capacity. to develop, I have that level of self-awareness where when envy – so envy for me is very ego dystonic. I will say that. Like my sense of who I am as a person really conflicts with being an envious person. So when I notice that I do have envy, I'm like, oh, wow, and I feel kind of disgusted with myself for that part of me. And then I feel like I can take measures to correct it because I think I have a solid enough sense of self-worth and confidence in most major areas of life that I can issue sort of a corrective lens. And I think one corrective lens that comes relatively easy for me when it comes to envy is just having a more complete view of another human being. When we envy someone, we are taking a part of them that we see on the surface and filling in the gaps with what Dr. Conte would probably call the cartoon world, right? Our own kind of two-dimensional imaginings of how they got to where they are and what they do and don't have to deal with and what trade-offs they experience as a result of whatever success or fortune that they're experiencing. And so I find that, for me, just the nature of the skills that I have and the work that I do is pretty good at combating envy because I do generally have a pretty complete picture of people. When I slip personally, talking about myself here, when I slip and feel feelings of envy, I realize I'm probably missing some of the full picture so I can easily kind of go back to those skills. But what you're talking about is less in my control because it's when people have that view of me, when people envy me, have a two-dimensional view of me. And they think that if I'm actually working really hard to come up with the most tactful and polite way of saying something, And instead of being appreciated for my efforts, this happens to me all the time. I will work really hard to find the most tactful and polite way of saying something when I could have been so much more rude or dismissive, or I could have easily been angered by what they did. And then instead of them seeing, wow, she worked so hard to be considerate of my feelings, she put that really gently, I'm sure. Instead of that, it's, what do you, you think you're better than me? right? For taking the high ground, now there's the projection that taking the high ground is because you view yourself as a moral authority and you're conceited and you look down on other people. I think if I encounter a certain amount of that, that's just a toxic dynamic that I don't want in my life. I don't know. I don't know how to deal with it because there are times that it gets to the point of personal attacks and I've had this in my career. It's been entirely women. I know you have it's it's entirely in my experience female on female social violence that I think a lot of and I'm not saying men don't do this, but it is it's a it's a female dynamic men tend to be more overt. in their competition, more physical. Women are social and verbal and covert and often unaware of what we're doing, what our motivations are. Yeah, I've experienced a lot of it and I don't know that I have a good solution because it honestly really hurts. Like I will just be hurt for a while.

Dr. Christian Conte: That hits the nail on the head. That's something I've struggled with because it bothers me and I realized that it bothered me because I value people. I don't look at anybody and say, well, you have no use to this world. So if you're alive, you have an opinion, I'm interested. Now, a lot of people around me who are close to me say, you need to stop valuing that because These are people you would not go to for advice. You wouldn't ask them for advice about anything. So why would you, you don't admire it the way they're living their lives. So why would you take in what they're saying? There's so many things I'd like to say here. One, I really value when there's wonderful insight. So I don't want to gloss over something you said, Stephanie, that I think is really worth people hearing. Not everyone will understand. the unconscious or even have a desire to understand it. And I think that's something that really needs to be highlighted that you said that's really on the money. Two, when it comes to dealing with it, I have dealt with it, and it's bothered me. It's bothered me because I'm like, first of all, it's not what's in my head. You have no idea what's in my head. But I had to learn to, and I have become, I think, a lot better at it, becoming okay with just being misunderstood. Like, if you're gonna think that of me, you're gonna think that of me. And a couple experiences led to it. Like one time I was giving a talk to 200 corrections officers, and at the break somebody came up to me and said, man, it's killing me like I want to know so much more about you. We need your background like I know you said backgrounds don't matter, but you've got to give us something like we got to know who it is is presenting. It was a line of people waiting to talk to me. Four more people came by. The next person came by and said, man, all you do is talk about yourself. I did this, I did this, I did this. And I was like, nobody needs to hear about what you did. And I was like, literally, my man, few people ago, somebody just asked me to speak more and knew I speak less. You can't please everybody. And then that guy, after the next session, it was an eight hour training. After another session, he came over and he goes, maybe it was my projections, man, I'm sorry. And I was like, that's pretty awesome that you would come apologize for it.

Stephanie Winn: But like, I said, words I long to hear.

Dr. Christian Conte: Yeah, it's just, it was crazy. But and I don't get that very often. But it was an experience that made me realize like, people will hear and run with whatever they want anyway. I know that I evoke a lot of emotions from people. People either really love me or really hate me. And I understand that. It is a part of the way I've moved through this world. I don't like when people misunderstand something and then run with it. That does bother me, but I have learned to be less attached to that because at the end of the day, my job is to give the world my best and let go. And I'll tell you, Jake, something that really hit home with me. was on the yield theory self-assessment that we do. It's just three questions. After every session, we say, what did I do effectively? What did I do ineffectively? What could I do more effectively next time? Well, I specifically wrote in my new book, now I'm saying that's to be asked one time. Because what I've done is I've asked that question repeatedly about the same session over and over and ruminate on it. And I get to the point where I'm never gonna live up to something that I've expected of myself. So what I realized was I'm so critical of myself that one of the reasons why people's saying stuff bothers me is because that's what I'm criticizing in my head too. I'm like, yeah, I could have said that differently. You are right. I could have replayed that a moment. And I've had to learn that no, I did the best I could in that moment. I gave my best. And if I didn't phrase it exactly perfectly, it's not the end of the world. I'll learn from it. But I think that's why I was taking so much stuff personally that people would say, because I say, well, maybe, of course, I'm always going to say maybe there's truth in what they're saying. But when people are really far off, that definitely has gotten to me for a long time. I'm so much better with it now. But just to be raw, like, yeah, it does. I like the way you said it hurts. Yeah, it hurts. It sucks. Somebody says something like that.

Stephanie Winn: my husband literally put in his vows that he will continue to remind me that I am good enough. So that's where I get that, because I'm the same way. I will beat myself up.

Jake Wiskerchen: You get to say husband now, by the way. That's cool.

Stephanie Winn: Yeah, I get to say, yeah. Yeah, for those who didn't know, this is my first time recording a podcast after my wedding and honeymoon. Nice. So we're newlyweds. But I did want to add, because you brought up the actually, you didn't name this, but the Barbra Streisand effect is what comes to mind for me. You know that thing that's been in the news with the CEO caught on kiss cam at the Coldplay concert? Yeah. Okay. I've seen Facebook is just, I don't know about other people's algorithm, but my Facebook feed is nothing but videos of people expounding on the CEO Kiss Cam thing. I don't have Facebook. It's all good. Okay. I don't have Facebook.

Dr. Christian Conte: I have just a business, Facebook.

Stephanie Winn: I log into Facebook and Instagram when I'm on vacation because X is more like work for me and then Facebook and Instagram is like old friends. It's like old friends and things I'm into aesthetically like gardening and jewelry. Nice. But I saw this video that made a good point about the Barbra Streisand effect, which is that, you know, part of why this thing became this huge scandal that got all this attention is when the camera panned to this particular couple, they reacted looking guilty. Right. And that's what made Chris Martin say, oh, are you guys having an affair? Well, yes, they are. Right. But if they had just acted normal and stayed cool, probably nothing would have happened, right? And so I saw someone making this commentary about the Barbara Streisand effect, which I, for those who don't know, is basically the story where Barbara Streisand, a photo was taken of her house as part of some like California coastal commission to track geologic issues or something. And she tried to sue the guy who photographed her house. because she didn't want anyone to see her house. Well, that brought attention to it. And now millions of people have seen her house, whereas if she just hadn't reacted, then nobody would have even known that that was her house. So when I was watching this, I was thinking, yeah, I have some of that myself. When I look back on the things that have been hardest for me over the last few years of going from not ever experiencing publicity to suddenly experiencing publicity, The hardest thing for me have been Barbra Streisand effect moments where someone has pointed at me and said something, and I've reacted at all. Whether it's, ouch, that hurts, stop, or how dare you. Actually, whatever my reaction is, just having any kind of reaction will draw attention to yourself, and it just never goes anywhere good. And so I'm trying to get to that place of zen that it seems like Dot Conti is at, of just non-reactivity. But it's hard, because you want to defend yourself. And you want to point out the ways that that's untrue or if you have the weapons that I have in my possession, you kind of want to psychoanalyze people like, well, let me point out the motivation that must have driven you to do that to me.

Dr. Christian Conte: It's interesting, but you're right. And you are armed with that information. But it's like, I think the way my wife phrased it to me, like, do you admire anything about how that person is living his life? And I was like, no, I do not. I do not admire. somebody that's Older that's only on social media and just criticizes people. I don't that it's not something that's admirable admirable to me I'm not contributing not doing anything for others. So then she was like, why would you accept any of the feedback? I was like, you know, you're right now that you say it like that you are you're right That's such a it's such a helpful way to phrase it and And then the other thing is, I see that people don't spend a lot of time thinking about anybody but themselves. So the person that criticizes us might criticize us and then move on to their day, not caring about the impact, which is one of the reasons why when I speak, I tend to let people, my personal challenge is often, pay attention to the energy you leave behind after you walk away from people. Do people feel good when you walk away? Do they feel like crap? How do you make people feel around you? Were you right and they were wrong? Did you think they were like, oh, I just love when he's so right? How do you make people feel? And that's an important thing for all of us.

SPEAKER_01: I appreciate you both answering that. Thanks.

Stephanie Winn: I will say about that, I was kind of joking as I talked about the potential to weaponize psychology. For me, when I'm threatened, there's always that temptation to be like, do you really want me to psychoanalyze you? Because I can. I can look right through your soul and rip you to shreds.

Jake Wiskerchen: Take your raging histrionic personality disorder elsewhere.

Stephanie Winn: Yeah, I mean, I have that ability. I feel like I keep it in check. Like it's, you know, that Jordan Peterson said something Bible inspired, I think, about like those who have swords and know how to use them, but keep them sheathed. Like I keep my sword sheathed. Right. But I know it's there. But I think part but for me, like even just on a personal level, regardless of what I say to other people, just that ability to psycho psychoanalyze people is part of how I tend to my wounds sometimes. Because when I think about one of the people who tried to attack me on social media the last few years, I think about, I don't know this person, but I'm pretty sure that what I was seeing is that her having any connection to me at all, even the fact that we'd only spoken on the phone once for five minutes, made her feel powerful. It was, you know, in a year and a half after talking to me on the phone for five minutes, she tries to get on social media and say that she knows something about me and that she can determine that I'm a narcissist, right? And the basis for that accusation was that on the phone I literally asked her, do you know who I am? But it was in the context of literally being confused as to whether or not she knew who I was. It was like she wanted to get on the phone with me. I assume she knew who I was based on my podcast and stuff because a lot of people do. And then she was acting like she didn't know things about me. So I was like, well, do you know who I am? Right. And then a year and a half later, she's like, oh, this person's like, do you know who I am? I'm like, OK. So you feel like because you had a brief interaction with someone who's experienced some degree of publicity that that makes you powerful, that you have power over someone, the power to hurt someone, and that's what's giving your life meaning right now. Yes. I could rip you to shreds for that or I could just feel pity and eventually compassion as I simmer down and that's the sort of stuff I have to turn to for my own sanity.

Dr. Christian Conte: So the story that really helped me the most, since I'm really into Zen, somebody tried to hand the Buddha, just came and booed at him, and was like cutting him up while he was speaking. And he didn't give any attention to it. And he kept at him harder and harder. He didn't give any attention. He kept at him. So finally, the guy just gave up. And so someone came up to me. He's like, well, why didn't you respond to that guy? And he said, if somebody gives you a gift, But you don't receive it. You don't accept it. Who does the gift belong to? And I'm like, well, I guess the person who brought the gift. Yeah. He's like the same thing with their anger. I'm not accepting it. And that really helped me because then when I listened to people, I'm like, you're trying to give me some, you're trying to get power over me. And I'm just not interested. There's no, there's no, I'm not going to interact with you with that. And the whole concept of people diagnosing people with narcissism, like that is just the, You'll notice that there's such a proliferation of that in a relationship. If you break up because someone was selfish in the relationship, they must have been a narcissist. Or you guys just weren't really good together. And yeah, there's some selfishness at times, but that's pretty natural in life. But if you ask a question, and now it's definitive proof, you hit the nail on the head. And I hope listeners really hear what you just said with that, because that person wanted power over you. And at the end of the day, they don't get to have that power. You get to say whatever you want to that person. You say whatever you want to say. These are just words. None of it is real just because you say it. And think about how insecure a human being is, to dislike something. Think about the type of human being this is. This might hit home really deeply for people. But think about the kind of human being who has a negative experience with someone, doesn't like that experience, and then wants to spread that to others. Ooh, I had this icky thing. I want you all to have ickiness in your life too. I hate this person, so I want you all to hate this person. And people rally people to dislike who they dislike. That comes from a place of such insecurity and ego self-centeredness. It's unreal. So for her to call you a narcissist when that's an indicative statement of someone who's completely self-focused is pretty ironic.

Stephanie Winn: To be fair, I think the inner experience of that person, I think the conscious, the ego narrative, the above the water part of the glacier is I'm helping others by warning them. I think that's the thing.

Jake Wiskerchen: That's, that's Yelp. Like the whole company of Yelp was built off that. Right. It's like, I sure. Yeah. There's the five star reviews to get people there. Yeah. Google, you can't remove anything. You, uh, Google will not remove anything ever. Uh, Yelp at least removed one from a, an employee tried to trash this cause she got canned. Um, and there's a box you can check, say remove this. It's a person of the company, but like that's, that's a real strange construct that's been going on in society for many years now where it's like rally everybody to my echo chamber so that I can feel good about my own opinion. Right. Right. Or wrong. hopefully it's right. And we like to buoy people who are doing good things, but like tearing down the ones that aren't just because you had a bad steak at the restaurants, like has no reason to take down the whole restaurant, man. Like that's, I don't know.

Dr. Christian Conte: Yeah. And I think I've learned that if I had a negative interaction with someone, I know I haven't always been at my best in life. There have been moments when I haven't been at my best. Okay. Lots of them. So when I have somebody has a negative experience with me and they're not their best, I don't assume that that's how they are all the time. I assume that they had a negative experience with me in that moment. I don't assume anything beyond that. And I practice that a lot because I really do believe that if I can bring that awareness or consciousness for myself, I think that ripples. I do think that that has an impact on other people. Because other people can watch it and learn, hey, you're not reactive, what are you doing? Well, I'm not judging somebody based off one experience. You can dislike something I said and be mad at me. That's okay. Or you could be having a bad day and be really say stuff you didn't mean. Cause how many times have people said that? I didn't mean that. I guess in anger management, I hear it all the time. Cause people will be like, especially in the prisons where you're going to see the guy the next week. And they're like, I'm so sorry about last week. And I'm like, listen, my man, I forgave you as soon as you said it, because I knew you were going to not, I knew that moment was going to pass.

Stephanie Winn: This fundamental attribution error, right? This is one of those psychology concepts that's so valuable to teach. And it just hits home for all of us instantly the moment we learn this concept, which for those who are just hearing this for the first time, we have this bias where we tend to interpret others' behaviors. Even in brief passing context, we tend to experience others' behaviors. as indicative of their character, whereas we want to be perceived and we perceive ourselves in our momentary reactions because of context, right? We want others to just assume, well, of course, she was just hangry and needed to get home to her screaming toddler, but actually wanted a meal and a shower. Like, you know, you want to be interpreted that way. But what people see, just like you said at the beginning, Doc, like people don't see your intentions and they don't see that context. what they see as your behavior, and they assume that it means that much about you, which I think the world would be a better place if more people had that sort of lens that you described, Doc. I have so many hobbies. I have so many hobbies. I will say, and I said this to you guys before we started recording, but I will say to my audience, quite honestly, I've never been more in touch with the part of me that has no interest in working at all than coming back from five weeks off when I have just been completely immersed in everything that I love to do. One thing I love about Hawaii, which is where we go every chance we got and where we went for our honeymoon, is I could just be an amateur hobbyist at so many things. I'm an amateur. gardener, an amateur botany geek, amateur jewel roller, amateur body boarder. Like I'm bad at all these things, but I like playing with them. And I just I love getting to be in the sandbox and be messy and not know everything and just enjoy life because when I'm working, I have to be the expert, man. And I mean, talk about projection, talk about people's expectations of us. Like there's a lot of expectation that comes with being in this role. People come to me all the time like I have the solutions to their problems. It's really a lot.

Dr. Christian Conte: It is. It's deep. It's heavy work. It's definitely heavy work.

Stephanie Winn: All right, gentlemen, this has been a really great way to come back to work. What were you going to say, Jake?

Jake Wiskerchen: No, I was just going to say that was really good. But I forgot I'm not the host. Well, that's a good place to end. Yeah.

Stephanie Winn: That's what I said, life on easy mode, having two experienced podcasters here.

Dr. Christian Conte: We hope you tune in next week to, oh, sorry. It's your show.

Stephanie Winn: That's right. Yeah, well, where can people tune in nextweek.conti if they want to listen to more of you?

Dr. Christian Conte: I would check out my YouTube channel, DrChristianConti at YouTube, I would love that. And I'd love for people to check out my new book, Strong Mind, Strong Man. It is a book about self-mastery and understanding how to take control of the one place that you and only you have access to your mind.

Stephanie Winn: Great, and where can people tune in if they want more of Jake?

Jake Wiskerchen: You mentioned the two podcasts, Noggin Notes and Guns and Mental Health. On X, I'm at Jake Wisk, J-A-K-E-W-S-K. If you want to watch my emotional functioning videos, which I invite everybody to watch because I think it's just a piece of curriculum that we don't get in any of our curricula, zephyrwellness.org, and you can just go slash, you know, emotional-functioning or just type in emotional function. It's me in front of a whiteboard diagramming things. But, um, I also give a hearty endorsement to Dr. Conte's YouTube channel because it's so, it's just phenomenal. And anything you can pick up from him is walking through anger book, which is about yield theory. Um, you want to learn how to communicate with people and circumvent their fight or flight reflex. Do that in conjunction with my emotional functioning videos, and you'll be master of your domain in no time. And, uh, I might, I always do takeaways called therapeutic summaries also in advanced techniques for counseling and psychotherapy, copyright 2009 Christian Conti Springer publishing. Um, but the, uh, the therapeutic summary at the end of session, when we say, what's one thing that you're taking away from this, you know, something that jumps out at you, something that you learn. I, when I'm taken away is the idea that when I'm disappointed that somebody was nasty or gave me bad feedback or whatever that I didn't, that I didn't ask for. And I'm hurt by it. I think, I think I agree with it. I find myself resonating with what you said earlier about how I care about people and I, I don't, I, I don't want them to be living in that state of angst where they're seeing something in me that I'm not actually representing. And it hurts because deep down, and maybe I don't want to do business with that person because they're a boorish idiot or whatever. Um, I still would like to, You know, like I want, I want to be liked by everyone. Is that, is that so bad? Is that my cartoon world? Um, but it hurts because my expectations are simply not aligned with the reality that not everybody's going to be nice. And I, I think it's okay to have. to be able to be in a profession where we see into people's deep possibilities and potentials, and then ultimately be disappointed when they don't fulfill it. I think that's okay, right? As long as we continue offering hope and illumination to folks, I think that ripple extends further than we realize. So that was my takeaway. I'd never really considered that, and I'm glad I asked that question of you guys. And Stephanie, thank you for having us on again. It's always a treat, and I'm very happy for you. for your nuptials and I'm glad that you're doing what you're doing in the world and I'm very proud to be a friend of yours and a colleague and it's neat to watch you blossom the way that you have and I know that you have You have been an unwitting mentor to many other people in my own agency who look up to you and want to do what you're doing and go your path and be as successful as you are. I don't know if you needed to hear that, but I wanted to communicate it and express it anyway.

Stephanie Winn: Thank you. I really just want to be repotting my houseplants, to be honest. That's all I want to do.

Dr. Christian Conte: Well, as you repot your houseplants, I definitely want to say thank you to you to have me on again. And I'm really grateful to you, Jake. It's so, it's my first step when someone says, oh, a mentor or whatever, there's been a part of me that's always like shies away from compliments or things like that. And I'm learning not to at 51 because I really do appreciate that genuinely. Like you mean the world to me as a human being, who you are. So the fact that I get to have played a role in your development as a professional counselor, that means a lot because I really love the way you move about and the way you work with intentionality and the way you care and the way you fight for what's right. I think that's beyond admirable. And Stephanie, for our second interaction, I've enjoyed both times tremendously. I think you're really insightful. I think the statement that you said about unconscious and some people aren't even interested at all, I think that's like a takeaway. And the reason why I can zone in on little statements is I have watched for 27 years working with people that it says, sometimes it's just one statement, but it's the way it hits people that can radically change their lives. That's why Jake, when I'll tell you all my class, I'll be like, hey, today's life changing. Because you might hear that one thing that hits you right when you need it to alter your life in that moment. So thank you again to Jake for calling me a mentor, and thank you, Stephanie, for having me on.

Stephanie Winn: You guys are too cute. Yeah, that reminds me. I mean, just one thing to add to that, right? That one of the most satisfying aspects of this work is when someone tells you something you said that was life-changing for them and you don't even remember saying it because it was such a small thing. You're like, really, that? OK, cool. Wow. I feel like I'm doing A-plus because I mean, I was thinking of these other things that took a lot more effort than that.

Dr. Christian Conte: You never know. You never know what it is. You never know what it is. There was a classic case you guys might remember from grad school where the client says to the counselor, I want to thank you. And the counselor was like, yeah, I knew it. I knew I was doing great work with you. What was it in particular that I said to change your life? And the guy said, it wasn't anything you said. It's just that you would always cross your legs. you had a hole in the bottom of your shoes and you were pretentious as hell. And I thought if this guy could make it with that, then I know I can pick myself up and make it. And the council having the courage to share that story with others was pretty awesome. Cause you learned, you might not, you have no idea what's helping people change, but if I get to play a role in someone else's change, I'm grateful for it.

Stephanie Winn: Okay, well, I know we have to wrap up, but that reminds me of one more story, which is that one of my favorite teachers in grad school, I still remember this somehow, was talking about erotic transference and how like when patients fall in love with therapists and stuff like that. And he described a woman saying to her husband in couples therapy that she was in love with him, the therapist. And her husband was like, well, what is it about him or something? She said, he wears cool socks. Yeah, it's a little things, right? And on that note, thank you for listening to You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist. And this episode has featured Dr. Christian Conti and Jake Biskirchen. Bye, fellas. Bye-bye. Thank you for listening to You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist. If you enjoyed this episode, kindly take a moment to rate, review, share, or comment on it using your platform of choice. And of course, please remember, podcasts are not therapy, and I'm not your therapist. Special thanks to Joey Pecoraro for this awesome theme song, Half Awake, and to Pods by Nick for production. For help navigating the impact of the gender craze on your family, be sure to check out my program for parents, ROGD Repair. Any resource you heard mentioned on this show, plus how to get in touch with me, can all be found in the notes and links below. Rain or shine, I hope you will step outside to breathe the air today. In the words of Max Ehrman, with all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world.