You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist

182. Lynn Chadwick
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Speaker: [00:00:00] I believe that trans is a religious system. You have a set of beliefs and you have to hold to those beliefs, and you're not allowed to doubt. That is the one thing when you're trans, you can't doubt if you have to look into the eyes of your mother who loves you and knows that you're not a man, how do you do that?

Because your mother knows and she loves you, and that is going to create doubt in you. So I believe that they sometimes have to separate from their family in order to stay [00:00:30] true to this religion that they have adopted. I think they have a really hard time with a cognitive dissonance in it. I stand for the actual truth that she's afraid of.

If she has to face the truth, then she'll doubt and then she won't be able to continue to live as trans, and that's scary.

Speaker 2: You must be some kind of therapist.

Today I have the pleasure of speaking with Lynn Chadwick. She's the founder of Theis Resource Fund, which assists [00:01:00] detransition people with litigation. She began advocating for parents during her career as a neonatal intensive care nurse. In addition to running a private Facebook group for parents of ROGD kids, she has volunteered with Kelsey Coalition, parents of ROGD Kids, partners for Ethical Care and Gens spect.

Lynn, thanks for joining us.

Speaker: Thanks for having me on. Stephanie,

Speaker 2: it's great to have you. And I wanna give this sort of preamble to frame things for our listeners based on the conversation that we were just having behind the [00:01:30] scenes. So, uh, you and I have both, like most people in this world, juggled multiple roles and, uh, you know, in, in my career roles, I juggle having a podcast with the parent coaching work that I do.

And through my podcast and social media presence, blogging and things like that, I sometimes step into activist or advocacy territory, which has actually permanently changed the course of my career as a therapist and coach, um, for better or for worse. And that's a, [00:02:00] that's a conversation for a different place.

But in this podcast, sometimes I interview people who are doing activism of various kinds and, and that includes you. And today we're gonna have a conversation about some of that activism. We're gonna talk about this legal resource fund that you set up for detransition, as well as the journey that brought you there and some of the other parent activism that you've done.

But there's a greater context here, uh, that has to do with priorities. And I just wanna make something clear for listeners that if you are a parent who is actively in [00:02:30] this struggle, and you might be grieving, but. Unlike Lynn, at least have the fortune of not being completely estranged from your kids. In other words, if your kids are still giving you something to work with, even if it feels like a long shot, sometimes even if you feel trapped like a hostage or you feel like you're walking in a field of landmines, if there is still a shred of hope in you.

The one thing I advise in my course for parents, RGD repair, is to [00:03:00] prioritize figuring out what you need to do. To build on that tiny spark of connection that's still there and turn it back into a roaring fire that needs to be your priority if you can. Right. And when I work with parents in coaching, sometimes they're surprised when I say that.

I don't think activism should be their priority right now because it feels like something that's driving their kid away, something that they're sort of teeter tottering and they're in this power struggle. There's [00:03:30] sometimes like a parallel process where the kid is engaged in their protran activism and the parent is engaged in their anti-trans activism and they're butting heads and they're sort of keeping each other locked in place.

And if that is your situation as a listener, then I, I mean this, not just for this conversation I'm about to have with Lynn, I mean this for any conversation you ever hear me have or, or anyone else for that matter that you know, don't let the activism be a [00:04:00] distraction. From the health of your family, from your family's psychological and relational health.

So I just wanna kind of frame it up that way, and partly because of the conversation that Lynn and I were just having behind the scenes, if that makes sense. Um, Lynn, do you have anything to add to that?

Speaker: I think that that is absolutely excellent advice. Yeah. I'd love to talk about that some more.

Speaker 2: Yeah, so, so maybe we can just kind of.

Go there because where [00:04:30] we're eventually gonna end up is talking about how you made the choice to spend your precious time and energy raising funds for detransition lawsuits and what people need to know about Themis, how they can donate and support your work, all that kind of stuff we're gonna get to.

Um, but while respecting your privacy and the privacy of your family, I'd love for you to share whatever you feel comfortable sharing about the journey that brought you there. Yeah. Stephanie,

Speaker: you know, I think that you [00:05:00] bring up an excellent point, and I think in my experience that as parents, we like to joke that we all have our PhD in gender because the first thing that a mama does when her child is hurting in some way, or she wants to help, is she starts researching.

And so that is typically the first thing that a parent will do. They'll get on the internet, they'll start looking, they'll read [00:05:30] books, and they'll just kind of immerse themselves in this whole rabbit hole that is the world of trans today. And there is no shortage of podcasts and substack and documentaries and all kinds of information out there.

And you can absolutely spend all your time reading studies and looking at horrible surgery pictures and panicking really. Um, and you can get very immersed [00:06:00] in it. I know that I did. That's what happened to me. Um, when, um, my second child, my daughter went no contact, um, with me. Um, I just, I just descended into the whole world that is trans and it's just a very dark world if you let yourself live there.

So, um, you know, and I think that I made some decisions about activism that probably did not increase my [00:06:30] chances of having a relationship in the future with my children. And I'm not sure if I regret them or not, because in my case, I'm not sure it would've made any difference. But I think that what you're saying is really wise.

Speaker 2: I appreciate you commenting on that. And I think it's, it's like a fine line because it's important to have some of that information, right? You need to know why this is dangerous, for instance. That's, that's important. And [00:07:00] some of the context can be enlightening, but parents get to a certain point and usually this is when they find me, or well past this point, they find me.

And my work is like, okay, at this point, what you need is more in the realm of psychology, because that's the part that where you have influence, right? You have influence over how you carry yourself and your relationship with your kid. And I've been criticized for, um, I've been [00:07:30] accused of blaming parents and I say that's, you know, it's not my position that I'm blaming them.

It's my job to help them figure out what they can do. And if this is a cry for help. Um, or if this is, you know, like one way I think about it sometimes is like the way that family systems therapists are taught to deal with eating disorders. That it's a symptom of something in the family and it's what's in the symptom pool of the culture at that time.

So my job is just to help parents look at. Why your kid, [00:08:00] why now? What's appealing to them about this at this time? Trans, I think of like the trans putty is something I find myself talking a lot these days. The trans putty can fill any void. And so it's interesting to look at what shape it takes in a given family.

So I appreciate you sharing the context that there were some factors on your end and of course we're gonna respect your PR family's privacy that made you feel like maybe looking back there might not have been an opportunity to do anything differently. [00:08:30] Um, but I think when you fall into that parallel process where both the parent and the child are down these dark rabbit holes, it, you know, for one thing, it can maintain that push-pull power struggle that, that push for independence.

Another bizarre thing about it is that it's normal for young people to go through an identity crisis. It's not so normal for middle aged and older people to go through an identity crisis. And so sometimes when the parent's identity. Becomes taken over [00:09:00] by anti-trans activism or research or, you know, things like that.

Then it, it's, it almost creates a weird sense in the kid. Like, why is my mom's personality changing? Right. Like,

Speaker: yeah. Well, you know, the thing is, it's funny that you should mention that because I, I believe that when parents are, when this comes into the life of a family, a parent receives an identity they didn't ask for.

And that is ROGD parent.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker: Um, [00:09:30] and none of us asked for that identity. And none, none of us especially want it. And, um, most of us are forced to wear it the rest of our lives. Um, and it's very hard to get past that because it is, it is something that cuts your life in two pieces. Before and after this happened, and you never will really be the same.

I will never be the same, but at some point I had to ask myself what I wanted my life to be about [00:10:00] and whether I wanted to cry the rest of my life or whether I wanted to ever be happy again. And life is short and I'm 63 years old and I, I, I don't want that to be my identity because I didn't choose it.

Speaker 2: Mm. Oh wow. That's so powerful to hear that, that differentiation, right? Because adolescents and young adults, they're trying to differentiate their identity, but it also puts you in this position [00:10:30] to differentiate yours. And it re reminds me of one of the best things I heard last week. Um, I was talking to an RGD mom.

And you know, part of my whole philosophy on this is that we're looking at the trifecta of social contagion, which includes gender identity, ideology, cluster B, personality type traits and behaviors and woke beliefs about social justice. And so the social justice piece can sound like what this young man said to his mother.

It was, [00:11:00] you need to do the work. And I loved the S spa's response. It was one of the best things I've ever heard. No, I don't,

Speaker: I don't really have to, I don't have to buy it, I just don't. And I don't have to wear it the rest of my life. I think that what can happen is that we can end up being identified by the worst thing that ever happened to us.

And who wants that? I loved the way Laura Becker [00:11:30] recently, um, came out and said, I am not a detransition. I'm not gonna wear that title anymore. And she changed. You know, they all have that little, um, salamander in their ex profile hall. She took it out. She put a phoenix in there instead. And, uh, you know, it, it doesn't have to keep defining you forever.

Um, and I think that that is a really hopeful thing.

Speaker 2: I, I often talk about this whole [00:12:00] idea of trans as a tear in the fabric of reality. And part of why that concerns me is because everything's connected. So if you tear the fabric of reality, there's a ripple effect outward. And similarly, it's like there's a tear in the fabric of identity, um, because this, this isn't a real identity, right?

And so here we are looking at that parallel process of the sense of loss of identity. That can happen to parents. And I loved when we were talking behind the scenes and you told me that that moment that things changed for you. Because [00:12:30] as I was listening to your story up until then, I was like, how did she go through all this?

And she's coming across as so like graceful and she's smiling and she has this peaceful aura about her. What happened there? And you know, and then you told me that moment. Um, I don't know how much of that you'd be willing to share with our audience.

Speaker: Absolutely, absolutely. Um, I'll be really brief with the backstory.

So I have three children and the two oldest are medically transitioned to the best of my [00:13:00] ability of my knowledge. And my youngest is an ally. And I have been completely cut off from all three of my children since around late 2018. Um, the experience nearly killed me. Um, I. I was not selfish enough to kill myself.

Um, but I really didn't wanna be alive. Um, and I [00:13:30] was unable to do my job. I was in a deep, dark hole. I was consuming mass amounts of information about transgenderism, um, and doing, being involved in every way I could with every single action that was happening. Um, and it really kind of took over my life.

And it was beginning to be really [00:14:00] difficult. Um, I think it was about, I was about four years into that and that had, you know, that's the way it had been for about four years. Um, I was advocating for other parents, but I was not really doing all that well myself, honestly. And then, um, I had met this woman and she asked me if I wanted to go to Mexico and pet baby whales.

And I thought that sounded like a lot more fun than watching transgender [00:14:30] documentaries. Uh, so I turned my phone off, no internet at all for two weeks. Um, and I told her to slap me if I said the word gender. And we went to watch baby whales. And in this little lagoon in Mexico, the whales actually come to your boat.

Interact with you and you touch them, the babies and the mamas, and they, they snort at you and they, they like [00:15:00] it. I don't know why they do, but they do. And it was just magical. And there's just something about nature that is, it's constant. It doesn't care about the transgender mess. The birds don't care, the sky doesn't care, the stars don't care.

I got out there and it was peaceful and I started to find myself again. And after the day on the boat with the baby whales, it was like something [00:15:30] just changed. Um, the woman who took me, uh, she said it was like I watched all the weight just come off your shoulders. You are different and you've been different ever since.

Um, so it really was very transformative for me. Um. And I think that that had been coming for quite a while because I had been asking myself, you know, what, what do I wanna do with the rest of my life? Not this. So

Speaker 2: you had to [00:16:00] go through, one of the biggest losses there is the loss of connection, both the loss of connection to all of your children, and also the loss of identity as a mother, because that had been such an important part of your identity, especially given your, your nursing background as well.

That, that not only were you a mom to your own family, but you worked with moms and babies so clearly that mother infant bond is something that you, that that was such a core part of your identity. [00:16:30]

Speaker: Yeah, it was hard. It was a really hard, um, and I'm not gonna say it's not hard anymore. Um, I still miss my kids.

I still very feel very sad. Um, sometimes, um, and I will not ever have, I don't think that identity again. Um, but, um, I'm really grateful that I was able to come to a place where I started to prioritize my own healing, which I think is [00:17:00] really important. Um, because I kept asking myself, how can I accept the unacceptable?

It is not, this is not acceptable. So how do you accept it and do you even want to, and it's, it's messy. Um, you know, because. It's almost like, it was almost like I had to prove that I loved my children by continuing to live in grief. Like if I stopped grieving, if I stopped crying [00:17:30] every day, maybe I didn't really love them enough.

Maybe I was giving up on them. Um, I'm not sure what I thought crying all the time was going to accomplish for them or for me. Um, but the way that I feel now is that should they ever come back, I want them to find me happy and thriving and whole. And I think that, you know, if our, when our [00:18:00] children estranged from us, they know that it's a terrible thing to do.

It is an awful thing to just walk out on your mother. It really is what kind of a person does that and do I want them to live with grief or guilt? Do I want them to see now, you know what, you did what you had to do and I dealt with it and I'm okay. That to me would be a lot more healing for them as well as me.

Speaker 2: Well, it's like you're [00:18:30] anchoring for the family system through those invisible ties that at least someone in the family has a rooted sense of what makes life worth living, what is life really about? What is being a person really about? And there's so much that these kids lose to this identity. Um, earlier you were privately telling me about the ages of your children and, and we were thinking about all that ideally should be going on [00:19:00] during those ages to to build a character structure, to discover who you are, what lights you up, who you love, all those kinds of things that can get lost in this quest for identity.

Or the, the sort of mirage of identity that some people are, some young people are pursuing.

Speaker: I think there are times when we do need to estrange. I mean, I, I think that with some families, um, in abusive situations, that might be something that [00:19:30] needs to happen, but it seems like, um, there's a real trend and I think it must be kind of a therapy thing too.

This is what I've heard, um, that it's just, it's just seems like it's really easy now for kids to just kind of toss their families away, you know? And what they lose when they do that is it's their loss. It's everyone's loss. Um, because we all change, we grow and we can't resolve a situation [00:20:00] if we just never talk again.

Speaker 2: There is that, that rewriting of history. And part of what's so dangerous about it is, I mean, you talk about how estrangement or. Rigid boundaries are appropriate in edge cases, you know, that small minority of people where there's extreme abuse, where there's clearly an unflinching personality disorder, you know, [00:20:30] and, and so what's happened is that there's a large segment of the population now that's taking the logic that applies to those situations and the rationalization of complete estrangement that goes along with it and applying it to ordinary, well-intentioned people.

And, and part of what's so dangerous about that is then they have to rationalize their own behavior and avoid remorse or guilt. So [00:21:00] I, in some ways, I'm glad for you that your story with your kids ended so abruptly because they didn't even put you in a position where. You could give them more to work with.

Um, and you know, and that becomes a dangerous cycle, right? When the, when the parents, when the kids are already in this mindset where they're kind of warping their perception of reality to convince themselves that they're like flawed and imperfect, but [00:21:30] loving and decent parents are actually these extreme abusers, and they're applying the logic that we apply to extreme abusers to people who don't deserve that.

And they start warping everything in their worldview and their memory accordingly. Well, they have to justify that. They have to reinforce that over and over or else this horrible realization will come that they are the bad guy here. And so I, it's like at that point it's really dangerous to contribute anything, the dynamic because you can give them more [00:22:00] to double and triple down with and to keep distorting their perception of you with.

Speaker: That's true. I think there's another dynamic to it as well, um, because I believe that trans is a, it's pretty much a religious system. You have a set of beliefs and, and you have to hold to those beliefs and you're not allowed to doubt. That is the one thing when you're trans, you can't doubt. Um, and you know, if you have to look into the eyes of your mother who loves [00:22:30] you and knows that you're not a man, right?

How do you do that? Because your mother knows and she loves you, and that is going to create doubt in you. And so I believe that they sometimes have to separate from their family in order to, to stay, um, true to this religion that they have adopted. You know? Um, I don't think they, I think they [00:23:00] have a really hard time with the cognitive dissonance in it.

So, and I think that that helps, um, if you can, if you've been estranged from your child and you can frame it that way, then you can realize, you know, it's not me. She's really rejecting. It's, it's my, it's that I stand for the actual truth that she's afraid of. If she has to face the truth that she'll have [00:23:30] to, then she'll doubt and then she won't.

Be able to continue to live as trans and, and that's scary. So I, I think that, uh, I think that that plays into it as well.

Speaker 2: And other times, depending on the personalities and relationships involved, there is a similar process where there's split off and repressed and projected cognitive dissonance that gets put onto the parent.

Um, [00:24:00] but instead of the youth coping with it by doing a complete cutoff, they do it through having a power struggle. And one of the things I teach in my, my coaching and course is you know how to recognize when you are not just arguing with them from your own position here, which can sometimes be counterproductive, but you're actually embodying these split off projected parts of your kid.

That they need you to play that role so that they can do this push pull with [00:24:30] you. In some cases, what you actually have to do is, is step out of that power struggle and really if, if it's, if you're affirming anything, you're affirming their autonomy, giving them the freedom to internalize this inner conflict.

Mm-hmm.

Speaker: Yeah. And you know, I mean, youth is the time for identity formation. And I think that we can at least acknowledge with our children. I see you trying to figure out who you are, you [00:25:00] know, and get a little more curious, you know, but it's really hard to go there because as mom, I have a goal. My goal is to prevent my child from medicalizing, usually.

Right. And they have a goal, which you know, is. Those two goals are at odds. And, um, I think you can actually tip the scale more toward, uh, eventual and medicalization if you push back too hard, [00:25:30] if it turns into that tug and tug of war. You know, I fear, um, the, the attitude of, you know, well, I'm gonna show my mom, I'll show her, you know, she can't stop me.

Absolutely. Well, you know, actually you can't. And that's the thing that's so hard about it. You can't, in most cases, um, you know, this is your child's struggle and if it was yours, you could affect it. You can affect [00:26:00] it, but you can't completely control it. There's just no way.

Speaker 2: I often advise parents to say, you are right.

Whenever possible, uh, what can you acknowledge that they're right about? And you just acknowledge a couple things, right? That it's their life, um, that, that you can't control 'em. Um. Gosh, there was one other thing you said at the beginning, and my brain is just not cooperating today. They're forming

Speaker: identity.

They're looking for identity, maybe.

Speaker 2: [00:26:30] Thank you. Uh, you're right. Yeah, you're right to be trying to, you know, figure yourself out. Like these are all valid pieces of the puzzle. And I think sometimes parents are just so afraid of what could happen, that they're afraid to give their kids credit for anything.

Well, then the relationship, the whole relationship turns into this negative power struggle. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker: And they wanna be treated like they're intelligent and they wanna be treated like they're mature adults, which we know they're not usually, [00:27:00] you know what? 18-year-old is really a mature adult. Right. Very few of them, honestly.

Um, but they believe it. You know, I'm a grownup now. I'm an adult. I can make all my own decisions and, and you know, that is true. Um, but, uh, you know, um, it's good if they. Get advice from people other than the people on TikTok. So, and you know, if you wanna be in that situation of being the [00:27:30] person to, you know, having, uh, some input into their life, then, you know, it, it, it can't be a war zone.

Um, but I didn't get to really do it. My kids were adults. My daughter, my son was 21 and already out of the house. My daughter was, uh, 21 is what? 23? Um, when she medicalized. So, you know, I, uh, I, I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing that I didn't get to parent through it. I'm not sure I would've done a [00:28:00] good, any better than, you know, I, I don't know.

It's so hard. Um, but when your kids are adults, it's really difficult because you're in this situation where there really is very little that you can do, you know?

Speaker 2: When, when there is that element that you highlighted in the younger kids, like the 17-year-old, right, who says, well, I'll show you, or, you know, that, that element of spite or rebellion.

I think [00:28:30] in some ways there's a silver lining to that because it reminds me, for instance, of a story where daughter goes, but dad's gonna refer to me by she, her pronouns. And mom goes, well, I, I refer to you by she her pronouns. And she goes, but it's different when dad does it. Okay, so the same action, right?

Both parents, you parents, but here's, here's the silver lining though. Mm-hmm. On some level, what [00:29:00] you're actually hearing her say is, it's not, it's not entirely about the pronouns here, it's about the relationship with dad versus the relationship with mom. And similarly, if a kid is saying, well, I'll show you, or I've heard reports of stories like, you know, a parent says a certain thing and then their kid's reaction to that is, well, now you make me wanna go on testosterone even faster.

You know, it's like, okay. So there's that element of the parent child power struggle. The good news is [00:29:30] that's telling you something about the other elements of this picture that you can work on. The relational aspects, if your kid is telling you that there's something you're doing that's intensifying their desire to get on drugs, the good news is.

There's also something you could be doing that might decrease that. Now, that doesn't mean giving in, right, right. But, but it's our job to figure out what that possibly could be. Mm-hmm.

Speaker: Yeah. And, um, and a lot of parents [00:30:00] have a hard time with, um, clothing and haircuts and stuff like that. And, you know, I, it's very hard to watch your child present, um, in a gender non-conforming way.

And it's hard to know what things to, what mountains are you gonna die on, right? Yeah. Is this really worth the battle? You know, just let her wear the baggy jeans, you know, um, let him grow his hair out. Like it's, it's. [00:30:30] I, is it that important? Yeah. Um, you know, but it, we just want, we just wanna fix it. Right.

And the whole house is, is like, there's, it's like there's bombs in the floor and you don't know when you're gonna step on them.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Any

Speaker: minute you could say one thing and it's all gonna blow up, and that's a hard way to live.

Speaker 2: On that note, I do have to add, just while you brought it up, the opportunity that, that some of these girls are gonna grow up to be butch and some of these girls are [00:31:00] gonna be, grow, grow up to be very feminine.

And when she's 15, you really don't know. You really don't know where she's gonna land. So the question that I always think about is not, you know, whether the parent should be clamping down on shaving her legs or whatever. It's, it's, you know, what would ultimately, if we could strip away all the cultural messaging and just like give this.

Girl, the environment that she needs to really discover herself, [00:31:30] where would she land and what's gonna help her be more comfortable in her skin being that way, however she is tomboyish, feminine. And, and then if the girl, like if we see some indicators that she's actually kind of a girly girl at heart and that, you know, all of these efforts to masculinize, they might make her feel like she's behind a shield.

They might make her feel strong and invincible in a world where it's scary to be a vulnerable girl, but they're not gonna help her feel comfortable [00:32:00] in her own skin or authentic. And when I, when I hear those stories, I always think about what can we do to give this girl opportunities to be sensual or aesthetic without applying it to herself?

So I'll have the mom ask the daughter for fashion advice for herself. Not telling the daughter how to dress. I'll have the mom make up an excuse to get the daughter to help her pick out an outfit for some occasion. The mom is doing help her pick out a perfume or a nice smelling soap. So to [00:32:30] get the girl in touch with her sense of smell, you know, have her, uh, you know, when it's time to put a painting on the wall or rearrange the furniture, you have such good taste.

Where should this go? Do you think this color looks good with this? And don't make it about how the girl is presenting herself. Give her an opportunity to weigh into those preferences and make it make her feel like it's valuable, that she has opinions for other people. And that is such a safer place for her to play when she's wearing what I call the the mask mask.

It's just too bad that [00:33:00]

Speaker: in so many cases it seems like a lot of these young people have asked for help. And they've gone to therapy and they were very depressed and having a really hard time. I hear a lot, you know, major depression, um, bi bipolar, borderline, you know, a lot of, a lot of these really serious diagnoses and they just get a prescription for testosterone, a letter for a [00:33:30] mastectomy, and that's supposed to fix it.

And these therapists or doctors seem to actually believe that all of the problems these young people are having will be fixed that way. And I think that that's, I think that the parents who know their kids know that that's not gonna happen.

Speaker 2: While this podcast is like one long apology to everyone out there who's, um, lost respect for my field, who's had those sorts of experiences [00:34:00] and to, and to the people who come to me who haven't been disillusioned or, you know, haven't had the misfortune.

Of, you know, going to a therapist themselves or sending to their kid, their kid to a therapist expecting a certain ethical standard, and then being shocked and dismayed by what actually happens, you know, to them. I, I say since you haven't had these experiences yet, this is gonna sound paranoid, but unfortunately the way you have to approach my field right now is guilty until proven innocent.

Speaker: Yeah. It's really unfortunate. I usually tell [00:34:30] parents if they're looking for a therapist for their kid, I'll usually say, why don't you go to family therapy where you're in there with them? Oh yeah. And then you know what's going on, and you can work on communication. And you're not trusting some, a stranger with your child, you know?

Speaker 2: I agree. And I want it to be a vetted family therapist. And here's, I'm, I'm really glad that our, our conversation because of the community that you come from, gives me an opportunity to say all these things about the work that I'm doing the rest of the time when I'm not on my podcast. Yeah. You know, what I, what I say to those [00:35:00] parents is, and it's easier said than done because it's hard to find a good family therapist, but.

If you are looking for a non affirming exploratory therapist for your 16-year-old who's insisting on going by opposite sex pronouns, it's an uphill battle because that kid has expectations of therapy that are counter to yours, and it automatically puts the therapist in a no one situation because the kid is not [00:35:30] going to cooperate, not even gonna perceive this person as safe according to their rhetoric and their worldview at the time.

Um, if they can't expect that this person really sees them the way that they wanna be seen, however, family therapy puts everyone in a different role. Now it's not, this is my therapist and they need to be my safe person who sees and affirms me the way I wanna be seen. It's, this is someone who's here to help all of us with our family conflict.

And if I wanna go by he, him and mom and dad, don't wanna call me that. [00:36:00] Well, the therapist, it's not her job to side with any one party. It's her job to name the conflict or that, you know, that dissonance that we were talking about earlier, right? So a good family therapist should be able to say, you know, I'm feeling torn because I'm hearing from so and so that, you know, these pronouns represent respect and safety and all these really important things that I, I want for you all in therapy.

But I'm hearing for the parents that use of those [00:36:30] exact same pronouns represents, you know, fear about the kid going down this harmful medical pathway, fear of losing their identity prematurely. I'm hearing that the same words mean vastly different things to the different parties in this room. And so I'm feeling kind of torn in my role and not sure what I should do.

Then it's just a family therapist's job to name the conflict, not to take a side. And I think that a skilled family therapist could get a lot further that way. Plus it [00:37:00] takes the kid who's often very self-conscious and defensive out of that role of feeling like I am being pathologized here. Mm-hmm.

Speaker: Yeah.

And I think it's really important, um, and I think it's very difficult for young people to understand that we all have a perspective and we all have emotions and feelings around this, and everyone's feelings deserve to be acknowledged. I know that when my, um, son expected [00:37:30] me to use pronouns and a new name, I was really uncomfortable because I felt like I was lying.

Right? He wanted me to call him my my daughter, and. I just, I couldn't get those words outta my mouth. I, I, I just couldn't, I, I didn't wanna fight about it. I, I never really did. Uh, but I, I couldn't quite make my mouth say those [00:38:00] words. This is my child. Uh, and you know, I don't, of course kids don't understand how moms feel.

They've never had a child. They don't have that perspective. Um, and so I think it would be really helpful if they could just kind of understand that, you know. Maybe it's not that I'm trying to disrespect you. I'm just having a really hard time wrapping my head around this as your mom, you know, and

Speaker 2: when you describe the dilemma that it puts [00:38:30] you in as the parent to be asked to lie, I think this is one of those double binds.

Um, I have a lesson on this in the course, right? That, that as a parent of an RGD kid, you find yourself in double binds all the time. And so this is one right On the one hand, your kid is telling you, oh, it'll be so easy. Just call me this. Why are you being so difficult? Just all I'm asking is just respect my pronouns, right?

They make it out to be this easy thing. But on the other hand, it represents [00:39:00] so much more than that to you. They're lacking theory of mind. Yes. They can't, they can't see that. And it, and it presents this dilemma of, okay, so you realize you're asking this person to lie to, you know, discount their own recollection of the experience of bringing you up as their respective son or daughter.

And so what I often hear when I, when I ask parents about these types of interactions, because sometimes they'll, they'll have that conversation and the kid will say something like, yeah, fine, then [00:39:30] lie to me. Fine, I'll, I don't care if you're lying to me, I just need you to affirm me. Right? So they pretend to go, they pretend that they're really just asking for the small thing and they don't care if it feels inauthentic to their parents.

They only care about how it feels to them to be called, what they wanna be called. But I think if we explore that, you quickly discover. That it's not gonna be satisfying. Right. It's not enough if the parent were to go along with it. Yeah. Then now the inauthenticity, now that [00:40:00] the kid got what they wanted, which was use the words, now the inauthenticity is the next problem, and Right.

That parallels the, the escalator process of the trans identity. Right. That first it's, you know, I have dysphoria about my voice, and now I'm on testosterone and I have dysphoria about my breasts, and now I got them cut off, and now I have dysphoria about my hips.

Speaker: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: It's just never ending.

Speaker: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, well, I, I just, I, I think that most parents feel [00:40:30] that, you know, if they, if they do use the pronouns, it's almost like they're agreeing. Yeah. I think you're right. I think you really are a boy, and, and I'm going to, you know, I just want to support that all the way and. If you're not there, you're not there.

And, um, I think it's important to be honest, and I think that we have to, uh, be true to ourselves and we have to be [00:41:00] honest. And I think that sometimes as parents when we go through this, it just feels like there's nothing we can do that's the right thing. No matter what we do. We, we're doing the wrong thing.

And no matter what we do, we can't really protect our kids. So I guess I feel like you have to be honest, you know, and true to yourself, um, and compassionate to your child all at the same [00:41:30] time. And, um, I, I think that parents that are enduring this are, they've gotta be the strongest, most courageous. Most loving people on this planet, there is nothing you can do that is harder than this.

I don't think there is. And there is nothing harder than saying no to your child about something. They want this badly while being so afraid that they're [00:42:00] going to pursue it. And I'm in awe of parents and their courage and their strength and their care for their kids. And it's not recognized. So you do it in a vacuum, you do it while everyone tells you, you should just accept it.

The culture doesn't back you up. Usually your friends and family don't back you up. Um, it's, this is why we have parent support groups. [00:42:30] 'cause we, you know, we understand each other like nobody else does. But we all appreciate people like you, Stephanie, that are stepping in and doing work, um, on behalf of us and our kids, um, when you don't have to.

And so I know that, I know it's appreciated.

Speaker 2: Thank you. You know, when I, when I heard you talking about the powerlessness and um, just being [00:43:00] honest, I was thinking about how a lot of the tools I teach, they're just about more ways to be honest. Some of them, you're not always revealing all of your thoughts.

You know, I do advise caution with what card you play at what time and what order, because once you've played a certain card, you can't, you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube to mix metaphors here, but. You know, things like naming the double bind that you're in, [00:43:30] it's just more words for being honest, right?

Or naming parts of you. Um, and some of these things were also modeling what we want these kids to be able to internalize about emotional maturity without trying to enforce it on them. But when you say, a part of me wants nothing more than to give you everything that you ask for, uh, but another part of me is feeling that this request [00:44:00] is, is deeply wrong because you're asking me to lie, you know, whatever, that, that conflict might be inside for you as the parent.

You can name that. And so, you know, it's like being in a spider web or having your backup against a wall. Yes, sometimes there's nothing you can do, but be honest, however. Sometimes parents don't have the tools to name the whole truth, right? They think being honest means saying, well, I don't agree with this, and here's why.

And you need [00:44:30] to, you know, and that's their version of being honest. But I'm talking about being emotionally honest, being relationally honest, emotionally honest.

Speaker: Yeah. Emotionally honest and curious. Hmm. Yeah. You know, um, you've probably listened to some of the wider lens podcasts. Um, but I, I love, I just love it when Sasha says, I'm curious.

She says that a lot. She says, I'm curious. And, and I think [00:45:00] that, um, it's really helpful, um, to listen more and talk a lot less, you know, even though like 90% of what that kid is saying is just completely crazy. But listen, listen, don't talk so much, you know, ask questions. Um. Right. And, and then maybe you'll be able to communicate, but

Speaker 2: mm-hmm.

Well, and like you were saying, it's a tough job. Like you were saying before, it's so important to these young people to [00:45:30] feel intelligent. Um, many of them do have a sense of both intellectual and moral superiority that's very tied up in their ego, and you have to give them room for that. Um, you're not gonna get anywhere by becoming the enemy of their sense of superiority.

Um, so it, it, and, and they're in a stage of life when, yeah, it would be nice if they still felt like mom and dad were their hero and they wanted to ask you for advice on every little thing, because [00:46:00] you'd love to help them with, you know, adulting. But the reality is they're in a stage of life where it is more important to them to understand their own perspective than to understand your perspective.

So if you're constantly trying to inflict your perspective on them. You know, you're not, you're not planting the seeds of doubt like you think you are. You know, you if, but if you create enough space to listen, this is what I teach people. It's really subtle. Sometimes the signs are very, very subtle, but you will actually hear their own cognitive dissonance emerge.[00:46:30]

And your job is just to be so still, almost like picture like a cat waiting for hours outside of a mousehole. You know, like you have to be really still and really alert to notice those moments of where your kid just said something, where they contradicted themselves. And in that moment, if you pounce too, too abruptly or [00:47:00] yes, you know, then now they're going back in their hole.

But if you pounce just right, if you go, wait a minute, you just said blah, blah, blah. But a moment ago. He said this, I'm not sure how the, you know, you just express your confusion or like you said, your curiosity that could potentially lead to a light bulb moment where the cognitive dissonance actually bubbles to the surface and they're like, oh my goodness, I believe things that don't add up now I need to expand my [00:47:30] own mind.

And those, that's where the real growth happens.

Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I once heard a person say, um, when it comes to arguments and philosophical, um, discussions, maybe it's not my goal to persuade you of my viewpoint, but maybe it's my goal to put a stone in your shoe.

Just annoyed, annoyed a crap outta you so you can No, no. So you, just to help you find your own doubt just a little bit, just [00:48:00] quietly, I'm not gonna win this today, but if I, if you can get this kid to even. Start to doubt just a little bit. And they're not gonna admit that they're doubting because that's a violation of the church of trans.

Yep. Right, right. But inside they're kind of like, I, so I had a deister that lived with me for about a year, and so we talked about this a lot. And, um, she said, yeah, I was kind of doubting, but I wasn't allowed to doubt. And they told me all the [00:48:30] things I wasn't supposed to read and all the people I wasn't supposed to listen to.

Um, and so I would sort of like open up a little thread on social media and read it a little bit and the turfs were talking and I, and then I'd shut it down right away 'cause I felt guilty, but I would still look. And I kept thinking I should go get on hormones, but I was just kind of too scared. So see, that's a level of doubt.

It's just enough doubt. And she never did get on hormones and she eventually desisted from the trans [00:49:00] ideation. Um, so I think that a little bit of doubt. Um. But it has to be their doubt, right? Yes. I don't own that. I can't own the, I can't take that doubt and make it my prize, right? All I need to do is just make you a little bit uncomfortable with this.

And, and you can't do it if you're fighting. So, yeah.

Speaker 2: Many of you listening to this show are concerned about an adolescent or young adult you care about who's caught up in the gender [00:49:30] insanity and therefore at risk of medical self-destruction. I developed ROGD repair as a. For parents just like you. It's a self-paced online course and community that will teach you the psychology concept and communication tools.

The families I've consulted with have found most helpful in understanding and getting through to their children, even when they're adults. Visit RO gd repair.com to learn more about the program and use promo code, [00:50:00] some therapist 2025 at checkout to take 50% off your first month. That's ROGD repair.com.

I'm so glad that we got to talk about this. I, I thought we were gonna talk about the legal fund, and we will We'll, oh, we need, that's coming up next we talk about the legal fund. Yeah. But, um, we'll, to talk

Speaker: about the legal fund. Yeah.

Speaker 2: You know, I have this podcast and I have the rest of what I do, which is the ROGD repair course.

The parent coaching, which is what I spend most of my time doing. And then my latest project [00:50:30] repair bot, um, which is the AI trained on ROGD repair. Um, so that's what I spend all my time doing, and sometimes this podcast feels rather disconnected from that other work, but today I really feel like we're getting to talk shop, if you will.

Oh, that's so good. That's really great. You've, you've been through so much in your role as a parent. Yeah. And you've done so much advocacy and peer support for other parents. And, and you did mention the support groups. Um, just for people who aren't familiar, can [00:51:00] you tell them where to find that peer support?

Speaker: Oh, um, well, there's a lot of peer support, but the one that I, I do have a Facebook group, um, and, um, you ca I will give you the email, um, and you can put it in the podcast. Um, but if somebody's interested in joining, um, my group, they can email me and we can talk about it. Um, it is, um, it's very vetted. It's on Facebook.

Um, and I think it's, [00:51:30] it's a, it's a great space. Um, you know, because, uh, I think the thing that amazes me about it the most is that everybody comes from, well, we're international and there's people there of all kinds of different walks of life and belief systems. There's very conservative people. There's um, Christians, there's lesbians, there's liberals there.

You know, some of our kids are older, some of them are younger. Some of [00:52:00] us are new to this, some of us have been through this for a long time. Um, and, um, unlike just about any space that I've ever been in, there's such a lack. Of discord and, and, um, people just support each other because parents know parents that are in this.

We know it, it doesn't matter who you are. 'cause this can happen to anybody. Absolutely. Anybody. And, but you know, the [00:52:30] funny thing, it's, we all have the same kid. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. They're all really smart and they're all really gifted. And, you know, there's just, there's a lot of similarities in our kids, even though we're really all different.

And that tells me that, you know, I think that, I think, you know, parents often say, what did I do to deserve this? And I said, well, you had a really smart kid. That's your biggest crime. That's what you did. [00:53:00] So smart. They're dumb, so smart that they're vulnerable. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, um, with the peer support.

So I know I've, I've heard of your Facebook group. I mean, I don't know that I, I don't know for sure that the one I've heard of is yours, but I think you run one of the biggest, so I'm just gonna assume that the group I keep hearing about is yours. Um, and I, you know, I hear about, I, I know some of the people [00:53:30] who do some of the peer support with the parents of RGD Kids Group.

Um, you know, I, I get a lot of people who come from some form of peer support group where it was really hard for them to hear other people's stories. And one thing I noticed when I was running a group of kinds and just from all the different people I've talked to, is that. There's the element of grief being contagious.

And then there's also kind [00:54:00] of the spiraling when you're in that panic mode of discovering just how bad this could be, where you know, everything that happens to everyone else's family. All the worst case scenarios. And believe me, there are some serious worst case scenario. I mean, there are, people lose custody, the courts get involved, they end up in jail.

I mean, we have some of those. Yes. So I mean, you know, runaway cases and you know, I mean, sometimes I am like, okay, you need to stop with reading other people's stories right now because that's [00:54:30] not, that's not you. Okay. And we need to help, like we need to help you catch your breath and assess. Where you are at with your family right now.

So I do have rules in the ROGD repair forums that this isn't the right space for grief. It's not that I don't care about people's grief, it's that this is not the right space for it because I, I think that that needs to be held with a lot of sensitivity and, um. And I really want the forums in, in my program to be a [00:55:00] place where people go when they're feeling resourced enough to commit to learning new tools.

And then the dialogue can be more constructive. So I'm wondering in your peer support roles, how you manage that sort of, you know, con contagion of grief, the spiraling, the Oh no, that happened to them, that could happen to me. Like how do you handle that? Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah. You bring up a really good point. And, um, and it actually, it's important from two different sides.

So I think that sometimes parents that are [00:55:30] experiencing the deepest and hardest, um, moments or times like say estrangement, um, it's, they're hesitant to share about that. And when they know that they're in a group with other parents. Of teenagers and they just, they, they worry, you know, I, I don't want, uh, I don't wanna scare the other parents, you know?

Right. Um, and so I do have a separate group for, um, estranged parents. Um, oh, that's great. It's pretty active right now, but, um, I think [00:56:00] it's really important for parents who are experiencing different stages because there are stages in this. Yeah. There are, there are sort of like, I don't wanna call 'em finish lines, but, you know, there's, there's things that parents fear and it's almost like, this is gonna be the end of my life.

If my child medicalize, it's all over. I've lost her. Right. They fear the medicalization, they fear estrangement. I'm never gonna be able to survive it if this happens [00:56:30] to me. Um, and so, um, when, you know, those things I don't think are as, they're not as. As common as people think, like a lot of people are just dealing with the teenage identity thing and it's not gonna go that far, but sometimes it does.

And so it's important to have spaces where, um, parents who are experiencing those types of things can, can speak, [00:57:00] um, together. Um, and there are some spaces like that. Um, and they're great. Um, but it's also good I think, to have a group where it's just everybody is, everybody can share. So, um, it's worked pretty well so far.

Um, and, um, you know, we have, we have, uh, triumphs, we've had, uh, parents that have gone. Hell and back with their kids [00:57:30] and, and they've come through the other side. And it's great to celebrate that together, you know, because there needs to be some hope, you know? Um, but I think it's, it's, there's things that we have all learned over time that we can reinforce with each other and tell each other.

Um, I don't think that parents are aware of their own desperate [00:58:00] need to take care of themselves. And when I was told to do self-care by a therapist, that clearly didn't care about me at all, I was very, um, dismissive. I said, do you want me to go get a pedicure? Maybe this will make it better. What are you even talking about?

Self-care, you know? But, um, we can't pour from ANM empty cup, right? And you can't help your child if you are absolutely disintegrating all the time, which is what a [00:58:30] lot of parents, they're there, they're disintegrating all the time. They're consuming enormous amounts of, um, information about transgenderism, and it's very dark.

Um, but like I said, we, we get our PhD, we can't help it. Um, but you have to know when it's time to turn all that off. Um, sometimes it's even, I think you even need to stop looking at your own child's social media. If your [00:59:00] child's estranged from you and you're just fast, you're just constantly looking at, you know, the things that they're posting that are giving you enormous amounts of grief.

Why are you doing that to yourself? I mean, how are you possibly helping them or you. By continuing to look at it. Um, I am personally really thankful that I do not have any of my children's, um, social media contact information. Um, I'm [00:59:30] glad, I'm glad I can't see it. I, I, yeah, I fear, but why do I wanna watch a train wreck?

I can't stop, you know, if they're, if they're not doing well, you know, um, you know, maybe have someone else check it and let you know if there's something you need to know. You know,

Speaker 2: when the kids are between the ages of 13 and 15, I always feel so hopeful about how much time we have and, you know, [01:00:00] the room for influence and however.

Sometimes some of the parents of these 13, 14, 15 year olds are really spun out on all the horror stories and the worst case scenarios. And when you talk about self-care, I totally understand the snarky, pedicure, um, comment. But I actually, um, I told a dad last week that I, I was insisting, but for homework that he'd go do float therapy.

Mm-hmm. Um, I don't know if you've ever done a float tank. Um, [01:00:30] I,

Speaker: I, I only on rivers. Ah, no. So,

Speaker 2: um, I love dealing,

Speaker: it's, it's saline and salt, right?

Speaker 2: Yeah. So it's, it's magnesium sulfate, Epsom salt, but just so much of it that it completely changes the texture of the water and you float. Um, it's something I do for my own.

Wellbeing and I'm, you know, I'm just very familiar with it. And this is a dad who routinely described himself as hair on fire. I think that was his phrase. And it was like, you need to [01:01:00] chill out. You really, really, really need to chill out. And it's not just about for your own good, although that's a main reason, but it's also, even if you're thinking purely strategically, if you are that spun out, you are going to miss those opportunities.

You are not gonna have the, the patience and the presence of mind to notice when your kid makes some little remark. Shows a sign of [01:01:30] some cognitive dissonance or some doubt, or you know, something like that. And you wanna be present for those opportunities and you wanna be calm enough to respond to them thoughtfully.

And so that's why it's essential. And sometimes, sometimes, this is the way that I have to sell it to parents because they will not do it for their own sake. They will not do it for their poor spouse, but they will do it if I explain. No, no, no. Calming yourself, regulating your nervous system will put you in the optimal state of mind [01:02:00] to be aware of opportunities you're otherwise gonna miss to implement some of the tools we teach.

And then they're like, okay, I get it.

Speaker: Yeah. And you're also going to be a, you're just gonna be more able to have to. Present yourself as to your child as someone they want to relate to. Yes. You know?

Speaker 2: Well, yeah. I mean, look at their role models. Right. And, and so, and I have a lesson on the course, and this is so not politically correct, and, and this is, you know, people hate me for saying things like this, [01:02:30] but if you are, let's say an older mom who's going through menopause at the same time as your daughter's going through men Arc, I have a lesson on this, right?

Like, your daughter is not seeing in you what I, let's say saw in my cool older cousin when I was growing up, I saw a young woman in her twenties who was like, she's got her apartment, she's got her cool job and a cool boyfriend and she's fashionable. And I'm like, yeah, young womanhood looks cool when I see my, my cousin modeling it.

But if you are. Going through hot flashes and mood [01:03:00] swings, and you are the most irritable version of yourself that you've ever been. Right. When your daughter is coming of age and becoming a woman on some level, and it might be 100% subconscious, but on some level she's like, oh, womanhood, what a drag. And you're making it worse.

You're not the only reason. Right. Porn and Instagram and a million other things are contribut Absolutely. To womanhood looking burdensome. It's just that you're not helping. Right. And again, I get a lot of flack for saying things like that, [01:03:30] but if you, you know, the, the model that you're demonstrating of what it is to be a man or a woman is having an impact on your kids.

And unfortunately, they're too immature and self-centered to realize that, you know, they're just seeing you at a moment in time and this isn't all of life. And also. Their crummy behavior is part of why you're like this right now. And you'd probably be a better version of yourself if they were a better version of themselves.

I'm sorry. They're not gonna see that, so

Speaker: [01:04:00] No, they won't. And you know, and the other thing is that this is a marathon. This typically goes on in a family for years. Absolutely. And you can't, if you're, if you're going around with your hair on fire, I mean, you can only keep that up for so long, you know?

Absolutely. You gotta figure out how to, how to pace yourself. Yeah. Because it's, it's a, it's a, it's a war and it's long and you know, it, it takes a lot [01:04:30] out of you.

Speaker 2: Well, and sometimes that frantic mentality, I think in some ways, as much as it looks like they understand the severity of the situation. 'cause otherwise, why would they be freaking out?

It's like maybe they haven't fully wrapped their mind around how, how long this might be. Right? They're still hoping that they can extinguish this fire in the next two weeks. Sort of like, remember two weeks to stop the spread, like March, 2020. It's almost like they're, they're in March, 2020. They're like, it's gonna be two [01:05:00] weeks to stop the spread.

Speaker: You know, you know, may, maybe we don't need to know when it first hits our family how, what we're exactly in for. Um, it might, it might be something that needs to occur to us gradually over time, but eventually, I think most of us figure out that we are, we're in for a long battle, you know? So yeah, it's, and, and two, you know, like I said this, I don't want this to be everything my life is made of.

And [01:05:30] even though I loved being a mom and my identity was in, you know, as a mom.

You know, my life can be about a lot of things. Hmm. And, and eventually, even if our kids are healthy and happy, they grow up and they leave the home and we have to figure out what we are now. Um, it's just, this isn't really the way I wanted it to happen in my life, but it is how it happened in my [01:06:00] life. Um, and so what do we do now?

Um, so yeah, I think, I think that parents are so much more traumatized than anybody really can wrap their head around. We are, we are off the charts traumatized every single one of us. And, and not only that, but we are so wrapped up in trying to help our kids, but we that we never [01:06:30] even look at it. We put ourselves last.

That's kind of what moms do anyway. You know, you get sleep when everything else is done, you know, and you eat after everyone else has been served. And a lot of times, right. Um, you, uh, you, you, you put your kids first all your life and, and it's, it's a habit that we never outgrow. Um, [01:07:00] and that's good. But you know, I think that if we don't listen to, to what's happening inside of ourselves to the pain that we're going through, um, we don't listen to our bodies or sometimes telling us.

So there is something really wrong here. You're gonna have to stop. I had to stop. I had to stop consuming any kind of, um, [01:07:30] trans information. I had to stop looking at documentaries. I was in documentaries, but I didn't watch,

I don't look at surgery pictures. I don't read studies. I, I, I do what I need to do to keep Theus going, and I'm trying to keep up on the lawsuit scene and, and the things that pertain to that. And I'm really, really careful about what I consume. And, and I keep office hours [01:08:00] and I do lots of other things that have nothing to do with this.

And I think that it's really, really important for parents to prioritize their own healing and lives. Um, because you don't have control over what your child does. You will do your best, but you. Are not necessarily going to be able to, to make that your goal, because goals should be things that we can do, right?

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker: There's a difference between a desire and a goal. I desire for my [01:08:30] child to detransition, but that's can't be my goal because I can't affect it. But if my goal is learning everything I can, what, what has this experience taught me in my life and how can I grow from it? And where can I go from here and how can, what do I want my life to be about?

And it can't all be about this. We need to work on that.

Speaker 2: There's sort [01:09:00] of a parallel process, um, that I experienced in my career to the story arc that you've described in your journey as a parent where when I first. Got drawn into the online culture wars over this issue and I didn't really, didn't know what I was getting myself into, but it made me so spun out.

It was my first encounter with any like degree of publicity, which is really stressful. [01:09:30] Some people saw how I reacted to the publicity and thought that I was a narcissistic because of it. And it's like, well, you know, if you haven't experienced going from like never experiencing publicity to suddenly experiencing publicity, it is, it does kind of screw with your head and you know, it's not, it, you know, I might have come across, I might have come across with a sense of self-importance, but there's, there's a lot else that goes with that.

You know, it was an adjustment process for sure. Um. You know, I, I got really [01:10:00] just spun out from all of the attention and the conflict and the idealization and devaluation and the stress of this issue while I was getting caught up to speed on everything that I missed by only coming into this in 2020. Um, and, you know, I was moving in a lot of directions at the same time and lost some of my own identity in ways that parallel that parallel process [01:10:30] between parents and children.

And I got some good advice early on from someone who has requested to remain anonymous, but someone who is a respected veteran of all of this. Um, she had, um, some words of wisdom for me early in the process, which is like she said something like, you know, I found what centers me is to think about the work that only I can do.

And focus on that. And it took me a few years to really kind of discover what that was [01:11:00] for me. But that was ROGD repair for me. In the same way that I'm hearing Themis is for you. And so that mindset shift that I just heard you. And with Themis of, I, I stay in my lane. I focus on what I need to understand in order to do well at this one thing that I decided to dedicate myself to.

That's how I feel about ROGD. Repairing, like, yes, I talk to, you know, people from all walks of life on this podcast, but I, I, I, I cannot hold myself to a standard of having to keep up with the [01:11:30] news or any of that. Right.

Speaker: Well, there's a lot going on. It, it, if, you know, five, six years ago there was barely anything to follow because we had such a media blackout going on and it's just kind of exploded, I think since about 21.

I think 2021 was about when things started to open up and all of a sudden there was something happening over here in Finland and something happening over in the uk and, and it. [01:12:00] And then the New York Times would publish something, and then there's, there's just a lot more going on, and you would have to be like eight hours a day following things to really be up on this topic and everything that's going on.

Um, it's, it's pretty enormous what's happened. So, and I find that very encouraging, but it can be really overwhelming. Um, so yeah, I think you, you need to decide how much time you wanna spend on this [01:12:30] every day or every week or every month. And maybe it's a very small amount. Um. But most parents, most parents, by the time they get to somewhere where they're listening to you and I, they have all the education they need on this topic, quite honestly.

You know? Yeah. We, we know. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2: Alright, so I think we should probably finally talk about Themis.

Speaker: Yeah. Let's talk about Themis as you probably, no, um, there have, there has never [01:13:00] been a detransition uh, lawsuit at this point. We have never gotten one case into court and it is extremely difficult to get these cases to court for quite a few reasons, which I can elaborate on.

Um, but. I was inspired to, um, just find some ways to help attorneys, um, [01:13:30] litigate these cases because I think we're all waiting for the attorneys to come to the rescue and litigate the cases, and there actually are quite a few that are happy to do that. Um, but, um, you know, attorneys at the, at the core of it, attorneys are about money and winning lawsuits and, you know, if you can't win the lawsuit, it, you're unlikely to take it.

Um, and, uh, I think that there's a couple reasons why these lawsuits are so important. [01:14:00] Um, and I think the first one has always got to be, uh, relief to the plaintiffs, to these defendants, the detransition who have been irrevocably harmed, um, by medical procedures that they never should have had. And they are facing lifelong challenges, physically, emotionally, um, and there are very few [01:14:30] resources for them.

Um, and for a lot of us parents, these are our kids, if they ever come back, these are our kids. There is a link, a strong link between that parents feel to detransition. And I think it's because we're all hoping that these are our kids someday, but we're all also grieving because when they do come out at, they're not coming out to a very good environment.

And there's, there's not [01:15:00] a lot of exit ramps and we need to build a lot better exit ramps in many, many ways. Um, but, um, I remember, um, talking to Scott Nugent years ago. And, um, Scott had, Scott almost died, um, as a result of um, his fellow, her FOP plasty. And, um, she was unable to sue. She was told by the attorneys that [01:15:30] number one, that there's no standards of care, so we can't sue 'cause there's no standard of care.

I mean, basically, um, she was unable to get any attorney to take the case because basically no one had taken these cases. And, um, the crane clinic's been sued multiple times and they always just get it, you know, they get it thrown out. Um, so they haven't been able to get any justice. And in order for that to happen, there's gonna have to be some money.

[01:16:00] Um, so in order to try a case all the way to the end, I was talking to, um, some attorneys from, um, Campbell Miller Pain, which you're probably familiar with them. Yeah. Um, and one case, if they get one, um, medical malpractice case all the way through, they're estimating it would cost about $1.3 million in costs.

And that's not for the attorneys, that's for the expert witness. Um, [01:16:30] papers and all the reports that need to be filed and the depositions that need to be taken and the medical, um, chart review that needs to be done. There's a lot of really costly stuff that needs to happen, and it's my belief that these people, they deserve the best legal representation.

And they deserve the best experts because it is not gonna be easy to win these cases for them. Um, we are really, [01:17:00] it's a very Dave and Goliath kind of thing. We're, we're up against a lot of, um, a lot of opposition. Uh, and the reason, I think the reason that these cases have never gotten to court is because I, I think if it does get to court, they'll lose.

They just will. Um, when you put all this stuff on on a courtroom wall and you pin people down and they have to actually answer your questions, they don't have a lot of good answers. Um, so it needs to [01:17:30] happen for the detransition, um, I think emotionally for them so they can feel like, you know, they had a, they had, they have a right to a day in court.

They've been harmed and they also have, um, a lot of needs that, um, are not. Are not covered. They, you know, do you know there's no billing code for detransition in the insurance industry? There's not even a billing code. [01:18:00] Um, there's no, um, standards of care for them. Um, um, and that's just medical stuff.

There's just many, many ways that they need help. But, um, okay, so the, so it's important, um, for the sake of them, but it's also important in the broader concept of bringing the truth of what is happening to people into the light of day. [01:18:30] And there, there's no shortage. We know this, there's no shortage of substack and articles and studies and all kinds of arguments that are happening all over the world about this really contentious topic.

But I think until the money happens. I, I don't see it stopping until, until doctors have big judgements and insurance companies have to pay out big payouts and people start losing money and it starts [01:19:00] getting unattractive. I think that's when it's gonna stop. And so I think the only way to stop the harm, the, the physical medical harm that is happening to our young people is to get it, to get lawsuits in, into the courts.

Um, and you know, it's funny because I've been doing this for a long time and there's been many steps along the way where I thought, [01:19:30] okay, that, that's gonna do it. I thought for sure that men in women's sports was gonna be the wake up call. Everybody's gonna say, okay, no, wait a minute. You know, but it doesn't, it just keeps going on.

Um, so. Um, I, I think that, I think we're all waiting for the lawsuits and a lot of people are like, where's the lawsuits? How come they're not happening? And it's because, uh, we all need to help with that to get it [01:20:00] done. So it's,

Speaker 2: it's been a while since I talk to the person who was counting, but I feel like a couple years ago someone said we were up to like 13 lawsuits in the United States or something like that.

Speaker: I don't know exactly. I think it's around 20, but I am, I am actually not a hundred percent sure. I, I should be more sure. Um, but it's, it's gotten hard to keep track of and there's a lot going on. Um, and so I [01:20:30] think mostly at Thema we have, on our website, we've listed, um, as many of the lawsuits as we can that we're keeping track of.

And we actually have the complaints on our website, so you can go on our website and read the actual complaints. Um, but, um, we're kind of focusing on the people that have come to us, um, for our help, wanting our help. Um, we have a, an application process, um, and we've been able to, [01:21:00] we've helped five in five cases at this point.

Um, for instance, I, I think you're familiar with Camille Keifer and her case was pretty much dead in the water because her attorney wasn't able to continue. Um, and we were able to find Camille a new attorney and revive her case. And, um, we just heard back again and they're scheduled for court next year, early next year.

Um, so, [01:21:30] um, I feel really good about that. I think that case would've died. Um, so, um, we're doing what we can. Um. You know, and so we focus on the people that more the of, you know, on the people that come to us asking for help.

Speaker 2: So when you say that none of these cases have gone to trial yet, I think for someone like me who's not very familiar with these things, um, I know your, your, your background isn't in law either, but I'm sure you've had to [01:22:00] get caught up to speed doing the work that you do.

Like how I talked, lot of lawyers, you know, so someone like me who doesn't really understand these things very well. Um, how, how do we understand that there are all these lawsuits, but none of them have gone to trial yet? Is it just that it's. Taking a long time. What's the holdup? Is it kinda your standard red tape?

Like what's Well,

Speaker: you know, law, law is a game, right? It's a war and it's a game, and [01:22:30] it's about strategies and obscure rules and who gets to do what win. And there's stages. But, um, the strategy that the, um, insurance companies and the, the, uh, the defendants, um, typically are taking, they, they just wanna get everything thrown out.

Okay. So, um, I think, uh, one, one of the biggest hurdles is of course the statute of limitations. Um, and so, and, and the hard thing is that that varies, [01:23:00] um, in every state how long the statute of limitations is. And that's a really big barrier, um, because some states have statutes of limitations as short as two years.

And there is almost no way that an individual that's been, um, given these interventions is going to inside the space of two years, understand that, um, that they were not served well and that they were injured and that they wanna go to court [01:23:30] and they're ready to file. Um, two years is ridiculous. There's, there's just no way anybody's gonna get there.

And it's very rare for, um, in those states it's almost impossible, um, to file in time. There are some states that are longer, um, and there are some states where it's changing. So for instance, North Carolina, um, just extended their statute of limitations from two years to 10. Which is, [01:24:00] that's wonderful.

That's absolutely wonderful. So there is, I think it should be the rest of your life personally, but I'll take 10 years over two. Um, um, so attorneys have, uh, there, there, there are building cases, um, I won't say creatively is a bad word, but there are other things that you can, um, sue for besides medical [01:24:30] malpractice.

For instance, there is no statute of limitation on fraud. Um, if you deal with someone fraudulently, um, you don't get protected from that. And you're also, your insurance is not going to cover that. If you lie to someone and, um, treat them fraudulently, you are responsible for that. Um, and so, um, we can sue for fraud.

Um, there's one attorney who is. She has a really interesting, [01:25:00] um, take on it. She's suing for, um, for, uh, sexual discrimination. She's saying that, um, these are gay and lesbian young people who were, um, discriminated against and told that they needed to transition as a treatment for their sexuality. And that is, um, discrimination.

So there's also no statute of limitation on discrimination. Um, but [01:25:30] it would be really great if, um, we could sue for everything that's been done for these people. And I, I think we'll get there. Yeah. But, um, you know, they, they'll put, they'll put, uh, they'll put them through arbitration. So, um, there's one case, um, recently that happened, um, against, uh, it was a case against Kaiser and, uh.

They, it got thrown out in arbitration. [01:26:00] Um, so now the case is dead. Um, she can't sue because she lost an arbitration. Um, so, and, and it's a, it's a horrible case. She deserves, she really deserved her day in court. It makes me really sad. Um, yeah. So there was, was there a settlement? Uh, I think a small one, but they didn't, they were not able to, uh, she didn't sign an NDA.[01:26:30]

Yeah. So she's not being quiet about it. So they might be sorry. Eventually. Um, yeah. Um, you know, so, you know, they're, they're just using any strategy they can. To, to keep these cases out of court.

Speaker 2: Well, I guess maybe now would be a good time to say how people can donate.

Speaker: Oh yeah. Well, there's several things you can do.

Um, so, um, like I said, we have a website. [01:27:00] It's, um, themis resource fund.org. Um, and, um, if you want to support our work, the, the thing that would really be wonderful is if people would be willing to, um, be a, a monthly donor and, you know, with a monthly sustaining gift, even if it's small. Um, we have people that donate $10 a month, $15 a month, just small little donations.

And, you know, of course if you're able to give more, that's fine. Um, but we have, we have [01:27:30] quite a few cases that are getting, um, closer, um, to, uh, to trial. And the preparation needs to be done and the expert witness fees need to be paid. Um, so, um, yeah, absolutely. Um, and then we have a, um, we have a, a mailing list.

I, I need to work on getting more emails out. I need to be more productive, but, um. Yeah, and just follow us on [01:28:00] Twitter, um, and keep up and we sure appreciate any support we can get. But I, I think that it's encouraging because, you know, I think a lot of us feel powerless and we watch this thing going on and we're like, I sure wish I could help.

And, you know, I mean, this is something anybody can do to help and it's gonna take a lot of us, you know, because the need is really, really great. So, um, you know, you can, you can know that you're, you're actually helping something to happen that can, [01:28:30] could really change. The whole course of this. So that's my hope.

Speaker 2: Well, I, I hope some people are inspired to donate as a result of this conversation. And I'll just add one, one other option for those who feel that they were harmed by specifically gender affirming therapists. Um, I have an article on my blog that explains how they can submit a board complaint, and I just wanna put in a plug for a board [01:29:00] complaint.

Um, so here's my sort of rationalization that I put into that article, which is that not everyone has, obviously the money to hire lawyers. But even with services like Themis, not everyone has the willpower to subject themselves to that process of seeking justice, which itself, you know, can be very stressful in a number of ways.

And so for the people who don't see themselves. Um, pursuing some kind of legal justice in that form. I want [01:29:30] them to know that there is something much easier that they can do that's not nothing. And that is to submit a complaint to the licensing board of the therapist that treated you. Because as someone who submits a complaint, I mean, first of all, it's free, it's confidential.

Um, there's, you, you no identifying information about you will be shared with anyone except the board that you complained to. Um, and they might not do anything, [01:30:00] but at least you've made your voice heard with these licensing boards because imagine the cumulative impact. You know, I heard from someone who knew someone who knew someone that, uh, one of the chief lawyers in a certain state who worked on cases involving.

Um, the therapy profession in that state said it was, uh, re said that regarding so-called [01:30:30] gender affirming care as the new standard in the field, it was going to be quote unquote a shit show. Okay? So years ago, this lawyer who handled therapy malpractice cases could see the writing on the wall and boards handle several hundred complaints each year.

They're not obligated to take action. They get to decide if they're gonna do anything and not every time that they do anything. Does that result in the therapist losing their license? That's the most extreme, and it's usually reserved [01:31:00] for egregious acts like having sexual relations with a client, using drugs with a client, things like that.

But there are other types of sanctions. But moreover, imagine being on a licensing board processing hundreds of complaints a year. If you start noticing a pattern. Okay. Like how that starts to sink in. And right now the trans rights activists have a very loud voice on this issue, and they are making very particular claims that we've all heard that we don't need to be rehashed here [01:31:30] as to how my profession should handle their issues.

So I think that it's only fair that these licensing boards, which consist of mental health professionals and various other community members, depending on the board requirements in the state, that they hear from the other side, they hear from the people who are. Harmed by this because they are also the people who are going to be making decisions about the, um, legal and ethical codes governing therapy in that [01:32:00] state.

And so this is something that all detransition de sisters and people who feel they were harmed in any way by this issue can choose to do, to have their voice be heard, whether or not your therapist acted so egregiously in the eyes of that board, that the therapist themselves will be sanctioned in any way.

At least you're saying, I feel that this was harmful to me. And you can do that for free. Anonymously. So for anyone who wants to pursue that path of action, I have an article [01:32:30] on my blog. It's at some therapist.com/read and you can scroll down and find it. It's a few years old and it's basically just like, here's how to do it in your state.

Here's a template to get you started. You should put a link for that up

Speaker: on this. Yeah.

Speaker 2: I will need to remember to put a link in the show notes, uh, to that article on my blog. Yeah,

Speaker: do it. I would do it. Yeah. I think that's a great resource. So, uh, I wanted to add, you know, on our resource, on our, another thing that we do is we connect detransition with attorneys that can help them.

[01:33:00] And I always advise that, you know, if you talk to one attorney and they don't really seem like they wanna take it, go talk to somebody else. You know, it's a, you know, you don't have to accept that, you know, okay, they, this attorney didn't want my case, so that means I can't do it. You can talk to more than one and not everybody's gonna be a good fit for you.

And, you know, we, all we do is say, these are the attorneys that will take the cases. We're not guaranteeing that you're gonna like that attorney or that it'll work out between you. It might not. Once they have, [01:33:30] um, an attorney and, um, it's, uh, I, I know that, um. The biggest attorneys that are doing this, they, they do not take money from the Detransition nurse.

It's, it's a hundred percent contingency and they're absorbing all the costs of this and not winning anything. Not yet. When they do, they will, but for right now. They're just, they're just spending money, you know? Um, but, uh, anyway, um, [01:34:00] when, uh, our application is a two part application, so, um, part of it is filled up by the attorney and we want to know, like, we're investing our good money.

We wanna know if you, Mr. Attorney, do you have a plan and do you have the skills and resources to try this case? And we have attorneys on our board and on our committee that these applications go to, and we go through that and we make a judgment about whether or not we think this [01:34:30] attorney, you know, maybe needs a little more, um, help to kinda get up to speed, maybe some connections that we have, maybe some people we can kind of introduce 'em to so that they can, um, be more successful, um, in, uh, getting the case to court.

Um, and then also, um. The other half of the application is to be filled out by the Detransition to themselves. And this to me is the key part of the, of the application because, um, I think that, um, [01:35:00] we can go into something like this with some very idealistic ideas of what's going to happen and they're not always realistic.

Um, and this is war and it's going to go on for years, and you are a lot more likely to lose than you are to win. And you need to be realistic about that. And, um, if a person doesn't have a realistic idea of what they're getting into and they don't have an extremely solid [01:35:30] support system, and they're, um, still really struggling, um, with their mental health, um, it's probably.

Not really in their best interest to enter into a lawsuit. Um, because the last thing that we want to be involved in is the retraumatization of traumatized people. And the legal system is traumatizing. Um, they are going to put you in a deposition room and they're gonna have nine lawyers, and they're gonna grill you about [01:36:00] every aspect of your life and try to make you break down and cry.

That's what they're doing. They don't care about you and they never will, and they will hurt you. Um, they will battle you and it takes a tremendous amount of strength to go through that. Um, so I believe that there are, um, detransition and people who, who can deal with that and for whom this is a, uh, the best thing.

Um, and there are also, um, people who believe that they want to do it, [01:36:30] but. Maybe it's not the right time for them yet. It might be later, but maybe not yet. Um, so we need to enter, we enter into this, um, with caution.

Speaker 2: I really appreciate that clarification. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I'm sure it gives listeners some assurance if they're thinking of donating.

To your fund that, that those funds are used wisely and that you have a, you know, a process of screening people, making sure that it's a good fit. Um, and I think that's also kind of where my advice [01:37:00] fits in. You know, like for the people who, who aren't cut out for that process at this time or for whatever reason.

Like, it's not, it doesn't have to be all or nothing. There are various different ways of making your voice heard, and I appreciate you being honest about the reality of how, um, brutal that legal process can be. And again, it kind of comes back to this issue of identity that, um, you know. As one of the ripple effects of the terror and the fabric of reality, that is the gender ideology.

Um, you know, it affects identity because [01:37:30] people are claiming a false identity and that has years of impact on them. It has impact on the people around them, like you as a parent and the other parents in your sphere who went through a loss of your own identity and, and had to, to grieve and, and pull yourself back together.

And then similarly for the detransition, right, they've gone through a major loss of identity and they have some important questions to ask themselves at this point in time. How much more do they want to, um, make their past a part of their identity [01:38:00] versus move on in other ways? And something like a lawsuit or a complaint, whatever action they might take, does that serve a restorative function in their, you know, reclamation of their identity?

Or does that just kind of drag out the past longer when they'd rather move on? These are all really important questions for us to be grappling with.

Speaker: They are, they're very important. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, and my hope, my dear hope is that, [01:38:30] um, that this organization will not be needed. Um, in the near future because I think that once one lawsuit is won, um, no one's gonna need to help the attorneys anymore.

They're all gonna be going for it, and there will be money, you know, once it, once it gets ju uh, started. Um, but for right now, um, you know, if you compare it with big tobacco, look at big tobacco, it took decades [01:39:00] in court for those people to finally admit that their product was making people sick. How many lawsuits?

I think it was like 80 lawsuits. It, it can take a really long time when it's a big industry. Um, and hopefully it won't, um, take any longer than it needs to. Um. Before we get some legal clarification and justice in these matters for people that deserve it,

Speaker 2: I think that's a perfect note to end on. Lynn, thank you so much for joining me.

It's been a pleasure. Hmm. [01:39:30] Thank you, Stephanie. It was nice talking to you. Thank you for listening to you Must Be Some kind of Therapist. If you enjoyed this episode. Kindly take a moment to rate, review, share, or comment on it using your platform of choice. And of course, please remember, podcasts are not therapy and I'm not your therapist.

Special thanks to Joey Rero for this awesome theme song, half Awake and to Pods by Nick for production. [01:40:00] For help navigating the impact of the gender craze on your family, be sure to check out my program for parents, ROGD, repair. Any resource you heard mentioned on this show plus how to get in touch with me can all be found in the notes and links below Rain or shine.

I hope you'll step outside to breathe the air today in the words of Max Airman. With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is [01:40:30] still a beautiful [01:41:00] world.