You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist

188. Will Spencer-compressed
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[00:00:00] Will: It's really important, and this is where I think a lot of people don't like Christians, and perhaps for good reason is there is a way that a person can call themselves a Christian and puff themselves up as holier than thou, right? That is a real thing and it is terrible, and it is not how [00:00:15] Christ conducted himself or his apostles conducted themselves.

[00:00:18] Will: They were all quite humble. And so like Christians, believers are called to be very humble. Now, that doesn't mean that we can't be direct In our speech, we're called to speak seasoned with salt, so [00:00:30] we're not supposed to just be so istic and be blown over by every wind, but we are called to present ourselves and to be dignified, but there's a way of being holier than thou that we're not supposed to be.

[00:00:40] Will: So that properly pursued Christian life, we do take on a character of holiness that will be [00:00:45] attractive to some people and there are some people that will be repulsed by it. And that is just part of it. And it shows up in personal lives. It shows up in professional lives. It shows up in creative lives, and it showed up for the history of believers, and that's why we have martyrs.[00:01:00]

[00:01:00] Stephanie: You must be some kind of therapist.

[00:01:06] Stephanie: You're about to hear my second conversation with Will Spencer, who first appeared recently on episode 181 from Ayahuasca [00:01:15] to Christ Will Spencer on escaping the Serpent's Deception. If you normally listen to my podcast on Spotify, then you may not have come across that fascinating conversation yet because Spotify censored it for absurd reasons.

[00:01:29] Stephanie: [00:01:30] Detailed in episode 187. But the good news is that while I'm working on this issue with Spotify, you can still hear every episode of my podcast on any other platform, including YouTube. Now, I was so excited for our conversation that I forgot [00:01:45] to introduce him during the interview, so let me take care of that.

[00:01:48] Stephanie: Now, will Spencer is an evangelist who came to Christ after traveling the world, taking psychedelics and exploring many forms of spirituality. Now he hosts the Will Spencer podcast and helps rescue men from destructive [00:02:00] thinking and find their way to Christ Will's cultural background, spiritual journey, eloquent communication style, and overall vibe.

[00:02:06] Stephanie: Made me wanna invite him back as a returning guest as I come to the Christian faith myself. Now, I originally recorded a brief solo episode to share a bit about [00:02:15] my faith, but I ended up setting that aside. And so this conversation with Will is really the first time on this podcast that I'm engaging in matters of faith as a Christian myself, rather than simply as an open-minded and curious person who's been spiritually seeking in one form [00:02:30] or another for most of my life.

[00:02:31] Stephanie: That being said, I'm going to attempt to briefly summarize what you need to know to frame our conversation as well as future conversations about faith. So I've been pulled in this direction for many years, and in fact, some of the challenges [00:02:45] that longtime listeners have seen me go through have ultimately been a part of my calling to join the body of Christ.

[00:02:52] Stephanie: Furthermore, I've been inspired by looking around to see who else is part of the spiritual revival currently unfolding, which has [00:03:00] accelerated since the martyrdom of Charlie Kirk. One such example is a favorite musician of mine called Nick Moy, who I consider a kindred spirit and a peer on many levels.

[00:03:09] Stephanie: Right before I started recording this conversation, you're about to hear with Will. I asked if he'd seen a five [00:03:15] minute video in which Nick Mve describes his coming to the faith in that very moment. It dawned on Will that I was referring to a musician, very dear to him too, will had vivid emotional personal memories associated with Nick Mulvey's Song Fever to the [00:03:30] Form, which is one of my favorites too.

[00:03:32] Stephanie: So when Will watched Nick's beautiful personal testimony, he became very emotional. And this is how I felt too when listening to Nick Mulvey's stunning recent album about coming to the Faith Dark Harvest part two. It [00:03:45] means a lot to me to recognize beloved kindred spirits joining the Kingdom of God. And I hope that at least some listeners feel the same way as they hear about my journey.

[00:03:54] Stephanie: As for those who don't feel that way, I ask that you respectfully take what is meant for you and leave the rest in [00:04:00] peace. I'll be sure to include links in the show notes, so you can also check out Nick Malley's albums and testimony. And now here's my conversation with Will Spencer. Today I have the honor of welcoming back my friend Will Spencer, to discuss faith.

[00:04:14] Stephanie: As I recently [00:04:15] announced, I'm now a Christian and will be speaking openly about that on this podcast. And if you're noticing, if you're, if you're watching this on YouTube and you're noticing Will, looking a little verklempt, a little emotional, I planned it this way.

[00:04:29] Speaker 3: Well [00:04:30] done.

[00:04:30] Stephanie: Um. So right before we started recording, I showed Will this video that I also spoke about in my announcement of Faith, where I shared Nick Mve, a singer songwriter, who I really cherish.

[00:04:43] Stephanie: I shared about, [00:04:45] uh, his video in which he speaks about his faith. And, uh, when I shared that with Will he put the pieces together, he went, oh wait, fever to the Form, Nick Moy, which is also one of my favorite Nick Moy songs. And so Will just [00:05:00] finished watching this video, which made him feel very similarly to how I felt when I, um, was recently, uh, just on the road with my husband after a little retreat together.

[00:05:11] Stephanie: And we'd been listening to the album that Nick [00:05:15] Mve just released, uh, dark Harvest Part Two, in which he sings about his process of coming to the faith. And I got so emotional, I was crying, listening to this music and what came to me as like, heaven wouldn't be heaven [00:05:30] without Nick Mby. Like, I'm so glad that he's gonna be there, like the kingdom of God needs him.

[00:05:37] Stephanie: And it just makes me so happy to know that some of the people that I [00:05:45] respect and look up to and, and just see so much light in, in this world, that they are feeling this moment of revival as well, that they're also in this with us. Um, it's so, it's so joyful to kind of look around [00:06:00] and see who else is there.

[00:06:02] Stephanie: Um, so I just wanted to share that sort of point of connection over the, the emotion that we're feeling, thinking about Nick Mulvey's process of coming to faith and how it mirrors yours. Well, and mine, which [00:06:15] was more recent.

[00:06:16] Will: So, uh, I've, I've told the story of parts of the story on my channel, but from 2016 to 2020, I was overseas being my own version of a new age seeker.

[00:06:26] Will: In fact, there's an author named Carl Teri, who wrote a book Game of [00:06:30] God's, which is sort of about the worldwide new age transformational festival and, and political circuit. Because the, these transformational festivals are not just. Just one-off events. They're tied to a whole global, [00:06:45] um, re mystic movement.

[00:06:48] Will: I can't remember the precise term that he uses. It's, it, it, there are political aspects to it as well. And he documents this in his wonderful book, game of Gods. In fact, on my channel, it's one of my most popular interviews. It was viewed tens of [00:07:00] thousands of times. And in that book, later in the book, he, he, um, describes someone that he calls Perennial Man.

[00:07:07] Will: And Perennial Man is the guy who goes and does all the medicines and the meditations and the retreats, and [00:07:15] goes to the festivals and, and the global sites of, uh, holy sights and, and tries all of the different things. And I read his description of Perennial Man and I was like, that's me. [00:07:30] He's describing more or less me like that was the life that I lived.

[00:07:35] Will: And Carl and I had a wonderful moment talking about that on our podcast. He didn't know me at the time, uh, but he was writing in a sense for me. So as part of that journey in [00:07:45] 2017, I was in New Zealand, which was one of the countries that I was most excited to visit. And um, in New Zealand, the only way really to get around is by renting a van, a camper van.

[00:07:57] Will: It's very popular. It's a small country. It's not even the size of [00:08:00] California. And so you get, I rented a camper van and was driving around just listening to music on Spotify. And Fever To the Form was one of those songs that I was listening to, sort of like an indie folk kind of vibe. And I have very visceral memories of [00:08:15] driving through the New Zealand countryside, which you've probably, you've seen the Lord of the Rings, you know, it's gorgeous.

[00:08:20] Will: And listening to that song and. It's come up from, over the course of the years, I have a 2017 Spotify playlist of the music that stuck with me. [00:08:30] And I've heard that song dozens, hundreds of times over the past about eight, nine years, um, eight years at this point. And, uh, yeah, almost nine years. Unbelievable.

[00:08:41] Will: And so when you said on Twitter that I should [00:08:45] look into Nick Malley's conversion, I, I saw the name, it entered, it entered one eye and came out the other, you might say. And I didn't put the pieces together until just now when you said I should look him, look him up and look at the video. And the first thing that came up, it was like, [00:09:00] like I saw the name for the first time.

[00:09:01] Will: Like, how did I not put that? I've seen the song in his name so many times. And so I just got to listen to his, uh, a brief snippet of his coming to Faith. And of course I recognize a lot of myself in that, so.

[00:09:14] Stephanie: [00:09:15] Hmm.

[00:09:17] Will: Praise God.

[00:09:18] Stephanie: Yeah. And it's, um, it's a special feeling to know that someone who has touched your life and created music that you felt in your heart, um, has, [00:09:30] has found that same salvation that you found.

[00:09:34] Stephanie: Yes. I really love that song, fever through the form as well. And when he, I, I got to see him in concert, um, a year or two ago, and I'm gonna see him again soon. And when I saw him in concert, I [00:09:45] insisted that he play in your hands, which is another one that lands sort of the same way with me.

[00:09:50] Will: Mm-hmm. I'm looking forward to checking out his new album.

[00:09:53] Will: Um, if he tells, if he tells a little bit about his process there. And he spoke very openly about [00:10:00] all the sampling that he was doing, all the different things that he was trying, and the way that behind the scenes his life was a mess. And that is. That, that is essentially the new age is constantly seeking information that will fix this problem, [00:10:15] escapism experience, you know, always outward focus that looking towards the next thing that will fix the problem.

[00:10:21] Will: But none of them fix anything. They, they may seem to, excuse me for a short time, but they don't long term. And at no point [00:10:30] is our, uh, our longing for morality is our, is our longing for values and, um, and healthy traditions ever fulfilled. And, uh, it, it's only at the end of many years of seeking for me [00:10:45] very sincerely seeking that.

[00:10:46] Will: I realize that there's no answers here. And then, uh. Christ found me there and I was like, well, if there's no answers here, there's no answers anywhere. And of course the answers were in the last place I looked. [00:11:00]

[00:11:00] Stephanie: Yeah, I, um, his new album is very powerful. It's in two parts, dark Harvest one and Two. So part two just came out and, um, there's, there's indications of his Christian faith in part one.

[00:11:14] Stephanie: [00:11:15] Um, but part two is where it really comes out. And in the, and in the first song, um, he starts chanting, uh, in Sanskrit. And, and that [00:11:30] lands a certain way at first, but I, I realize, so what he is actually chanting is,

[00:11:40] Stephanie: and anyone who's been in that scene knows that this means, uh, lead us [00:11:45] from darkness to light from. I'm sorry, OAT is from, from ignorance, wait, no, sorry. From untruth to truth, sorry. I'm getting it mixed up. Lead us from untruth to truth, from darkness to light, from death to [00:12:00] immortality. So it's not actually praising a Hindu God.

[00:12:03] Stephanie: It's simply a prayer in Sanskrit that he learned in his time as spiritual seeking. And what I realized is that that as the introduction to the album is actually perfect because he's saying, look, I've been spiritually [00:12:15] searching from all these traditions around the world, and I have prayed in different languages.

[00:12:19] Stephanie: Lead me from ignorance to knowledge, from death to immortality. And God answered my prayers and it came in the form of Jesus. So then that the album sort of takes you on that journey and it [00:12:30] takes you through, um. Sweet moments of kind of gracefully surrendering, surrendering troubles to God. It takes you through, um, joyful feelings.

[00:12:41] Stephanie: And I'm so happy that Nick Mvi is on this journey with us because [00:12:45] before I became a Christian, I always thought that Christians needed to become better musicians and make more interesting music. And then after becoming a Christian, I realized musicians need to come to Christ and bring their gifts to Christ.

[00:12:56] Will: Yes. Well, it's funny because, um, so many things, [00:13:00] so a, a part of my. Conversion story involves music, Christian music. There's a group, um, Bethel, Bethel Music in, uh, which are based outta Reding Washington. And I don't endorse their theology for many reasons, but [00:13:15] they have produced some truly incredible music.

[00:13:18] Will: And I remember, uh, I think I talked about this in our last podcast, that, uh, it was an underground, uh, ministry group that I met at Burning Man, that was the ones who ultimately drew [00:13:30] me to Christ. So that was in August of 2015. And then I went to go spend Christmas with them that following December. So this is December, 2015.

[00:13:39] Will: And I remember traveling up to Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, where they live, and uh, and they [00:13:45] had music going and they were playing Bethel music. And I was like, this is Christian. Music, but there's a bass guitar and a drum, right? I, I had always had this impression of Christian music as lacking, lacking angst, which is, you [00:14:00] know, the feeling of a lot of pop music.

[00:14:01] Will: There's an angst, there's a searching this to it, right? And we all naturally relate with that. And of course, when you found what you're searching for, the angst goes away. So a lot of Christian music tries to reflect that angst, less peaceful state of being. And in the [00:14:15] process I find that it actually loses a lot of things that make, makes music good artistic tension.

[00:14:20] Will: And so Bethel Music, uh, had managed, at least in a couple songs that I heard to capture, not a feeling of angst, but a [00:14:30] feeling of tension and release. And that's sort of what their music does. Again, like the theology behind it might not be amazing, but the music that gets produced is, is, is quite good. And so there was a song.

[00:14:42] Will: Going under something like that, that I was like, this song [00:14:45] is amazing. And so to your point that yeah, like Christian music, um, at least contemporary Christian music, which is probably what you and I had both heard from being outside the faith is definitely lacking. But I soon discovered that there are centuries worth of [00:15:00] incredible hymns and psalms that, uh, that reflect God's teaching and his wisdom, both in his word and through faithful, uh, men throughout the, the ages.

[00:15:10] Will: So. If we're looking at Christian music from a a, a pop [00:15:15] culture lens, sometimes it can be missing something. And there's a whole discussion about that. But looking at traditional forms of Christian music can be so deeply nourishing in a way that, uh, modern music simply can,

[00:15:27] Stephanie: well, I'm interested in checking out Bhel music, and I think [00:15:30] that you described that very well, that the tension and release and, um, I was so happy to hear Nick Mve bringing his gifts to the faith because, you know, he's very, he, he is got a lot of world influences and some of the [00:15:45] influences that you hear in the latest album are Middle Eastern, and it's like, well, Jesus was Middle Eastern, so this, this feels fitting.

[00:15:54] Stephanie: Um, you know, I think another thing, uh, I, I've, I've been slowly becoming a [00:16:00] Christian for at least five years and then just kind of reached a tipping point recently. And, and one of the things that have helped me along the way is that. I've met a lot of nice good people who are Christian. And um, out of all the [00:16:15] interpersonal stresses I've had, um, none of them since childhood were with anybody Christian.

[00:16:21] Stephanie: And so just seeing the character in people and along those lines, um, sleeping at last, Ryan O'Neill, I don't know if you know [00:16:30] his music. Um, really talented musician, but also just precious soul, like has such a pure, beautiful heart and soul that there were some very dark times in my life where, um, just [00:16:45] knowing someone with this good of a heart.

[00:16:47] Stephanie: Out there existed and, and hearing the way that he transmitted his heart through his music. And I knew for a long time, uh, while listening to his music that he was Christian and his music isn't Christian music specifically. And it's, it's very [00:17:00] artistic. It's very, um, uh, sort of paints a picture of, of the universe in a way, like praising God's universe in all the different forms that it takes.

[00:17:08] Stephanie: Um, so I think music absolutely can be a doorway. And I'm really curious and, and excited actually. Maybe, maybe [00:17:15] listeners can leave some comments for us recommending some, um, other interesting Christian musicians to check out.

[00:17:20] Will: That would be awesome. That'd be great. And it's so, it's everyone's story, everyone's conversion story, everyone's story of coming to faith has a different.[00:17:30]

[00:17:30] Will: Com has a different texture of it based on the person. And I think what's, what's for people that are coming from, uh, broadly speaking, a more new age background, it speaks to what we were looking for that we were unable to [00:17:45] find. And so different people are looking for different things in the new age. And the new age provides, um, the, the, the simulacra, the fake version of it, and ultimately it doesn't satisfy and you go, finally arrive in Christ to find full satisfaction.

[00:17:59] Will: So [00:18:00] I, I think it's interesting how, um. Nick Mulvey realized that everything that he was seeking and finding the new age wasn't all ultimately helping him sort out his life. And it was Christ who finally did, who provided the [00:18:15] missing piece that made all the pieces fit together in a particular way. And I, I hear his story and I hear other stories, and my story was, I was looking for a system of belief that could help me orient my thoughts, words, and actions to [00:18:30] not just my immediate environment, but to a higher purpose.

[00:18:33] Will: Like help my, it was, it's more than help my existence have meaning. It was help me to find a code of conduct. In my life as a man that has integrity from the center of me [00:18:45] all the way to the center of creation, let's say total integrity on on the vertical axis. So I know how to exist on the horizontal access, access with the world.

[00:18:54] Will: And I spent many years trying to formulate something like that and could never find anything that. [00:19:00] That stuck because the pieces don't ultimately fit together in any stable way. And it wasn't until I, uh, I came to Christ that I found what I was looking for in, in, in that regard that here is a, here is a system of moral conduct of moral law [00:19:15] that guides my thoughts and especially my thoughts.

[00:19:18] Will: God is very concerned with our inner thought life, which is illustrated all throughout scripture, particularly in, in Proverbs, um, our thought life, the things that we say and the things that we do as participating in a much larger [00:19:30] story than ourselves, that we get to be participants in this transcendent, cosmic story of redemption.

[00:19:34] Will: All the pieces clicked into place. And I, I say all that because one of the questions that a lot of people ask me is, how can I evangelize to the person in the new age [00:19:45] in my life? And I, and I tell them that, well. There isn't exactly one way to do it because different people go into the new age looking for different things, and you have to find what their central motivation is.

[00:19:58] Will: Like what is it that they're looking [00:20:00] for? Usually I say it's a, it's one of three things. I may have said this in our previous conversation. Purpose, meaning, and belonging. So, um, so purpose is, what am I here to do? Meaning is what do the events of my life, the events and circumstances [00:20:15] of my life signify and belonging is who am I to be with?

[00:20:19] Will: And so people go looking for usually one of those three things, if they're, if they're sincere or perhaps all three of them. And so when evangelizing to anyone in that world, you have to find [00:20:30] out what are they looking for? Are they looking for purpose? Are they looking for meaning or are they looking for belonging?

[00:20:35] Will: And it, that's where you have to begin. And so I think in, in Nick's case, he was probably looking for all three in a way, but I think he was also, he was looking [00:20:45] for a sense of meaning. What are all these disjointed pieces? What are they all mean? What are all pointing to? And what's the thing that's missing at the center of it?

[00:20:51] Will: For me, it was, for me, it was definitely a combination. So I bring that up because it sort of illustrates the challenge of new age evangelism, but also how [00:21:00] to kind of take it apart to reach someone where they're at.

[00:21:02] Stephanie: I don't know if you were conscious while you were doing this, but when you were describing the vertical and horizontal, you were making the shape of the cross with your hands.

[00:21:10] Stephanie: Oh

[00:21:10] Speaker 3: yeah, absolutely.

[00:21:11] Stephanie: And I was thinking about the cross in a new light as a result of that. And you're [00:21:15] talking about this, this level of integrity between yourself and, and the heavens above essentially. And saying, you know, how can I make sure that I'm receiving the proper guidance so that my conduct is right with all those around me, all those on the same, um, level of power.[00:21:30]

[00:21:30] Stephanie: And I think that's, um, you know, one thing I saw a lot of in the new age scene was, um, this sort of grandiose spiritual narcissism. And it'd be interesting to see, um, I remember that, [00:21:45] see what, um, what psychedelics do to narcissistic people. Um, 'cause I've, I've seen, I've seen that and it, it doesn't, it. As much as psychedelics have a reputation [00:22:00] for, uh, allowing people to transcend their egos, that that wasn't what I saw in, in people.

[00:22:06] Stephanie: It, it was more like this as if like, I am God, right? This, um, this grandiosity associated with the spiritual [00:22:15] experiences that they were having. And when I think about Nick Malley's journey, I don't know his personal life. I have my own kind of speculations about what went on there, but he. He was given a lot of power, um, by being, you know, famous and good looking and [00:22:30] having all these crowds and fans and, uh, what is a person to do with that, right?

[00:22:35] Stephanie: Yeah. If they, if they don't have a cohesive value system, but if it is this more kind of a la carte, let me pick whatever flavor of [00:22:45] spirituality appeals to me in the moment, then there's the, the danger of that power going to someone's head and, and unchecked and, and what I suspect happened when I listened to his story is that some very humbling things might have happened in his life as a result of kind of [00:23:00] perhaps letting that power get to his head and then, and then kind of crashing down of like, oh, I am.

[00:23:05] Stephanie: I'm not God, I, I might be able to experience moments of bliss, moments of what feels like enlightenment, but that is just, it's just a [00:23:15] glimpse into God's heaven. It's not who I am. I didn't create it myself, and I can't just will it into constant existence. I, I have to surrender to receive that.

[00:23:27] Will: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:23:27] Will: No, that's, that's, that's probably a very [00:23:30] fair assessment of, of him coming to Faith where he had everything that the world has told us to want, you know, success as a, as an artist, success as a musician, you know, as you mentioned, the good looks and, and [00:23:45] everything. World Tour, he, like, he made it. He, he truly made it.

[00:23:49] Will: He had the pleasures of the world at his, at his feet. And this is what Solomon talks about in the book of Ecclesiastes. He was seeking, he was seeking wisdom. He threw himself into worldly [00:24:00] indulgences. He, he gets pretty explicit about that, and he found, he found nothing. All is a vanity. And so, um, so you can, as you go through scripture, you, you probably have, if you haven't already, or you will encounter Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and Song of [00:24:15] Solomon and those sort of document Solomon's journey from a young man to a middle-aged man to an, to an older man.

[00:24:23] Will: So worldly, worldly wisdom in a good sense is Proverbs. And then he finds the limits of worldly wisdom in [00:24:30] Ecclesiastes, and then he transcends worldly wisdom towards union, uh, true love and devotion to God in Song of Solomon. And that's just one of the narratives flowing through there. In his own way. We all, as men and women, have those experiences where, you [00:24:45] know, we, we go after false worldly wisdom, but it seems to be true in our, in our fallen world that has pushed Christ in his, in, in God's word, outta the picture.

[00:24:54] Will: And so we go seeking these things and we find ultimately, that they don't fulfill and that it is [00:25:00] vanity as, as he discovered, and it doesn't actually make him happy or healthy or whole. It doesn't help him lead a good life. He can have anything he wants and he, he likely did. And he found that there was no satisfaction to be gained there.[00:25:15]

[00:25:15] Will: And so he, uh, through, uh, circumstances, uh, known to him and God, and, and maybe a few others, he was open to receiving and hearing God's truth. And that flowed into his life and hallelujah for that.

[00:25:29] Stephanie: I [00:25:30] do know about Nick that he went through a divorce with the mother of his children. And I think that really broke his heart, you know, uh, that I don't know what compelled his family to fall apart, but I think he was very broken after that.

[00:25:42] Stephanie: And so, yes, having it all in some ways, [00:25:45] but not others. And, um, you know, I'm going through the vial very slowly, so I did not know, um, what you just said. Um, I've, I've read a lot of, um, theological literature lately and, and maybe we could discuss, 'cause um, when you and I [00:26:00] last spoke, you had recommended CS Lewis to me, and I think it was at least the third time that I'd heard about CS Lewis.

[00:26:07] Stephanie: Um, his works on Christianity and particularly mere Christianity, which is what I started with, and then went on to, um. [00:26:15] The Great divorce, which I love, and the screw tape letters. Um, do you, do you wanna talk about the Great Divorce for a moment?

[00:26:22] Will: Absolutely. For more than a moment, please. I love that book.

[00:26:25] Stephanie: Okay. Okay. And my husband loves it too. Um, I think I, I think I, [00:26:30] I love it more than the screw tape letters. I, and I, I dunno if you ever listened to the podcast, the, the, the couple of, um, or like, it was like a pastor and his friend, I think that made this podcast to, to accompany the book.

[00:26:43] Will: Hmm. No, I don't think [00:26:45]

[00:26:45] Stephanie: so.

[00:26:45] Stephanie: Um, oh, it's so, so it's just interesting to hear their kind of take on things. But, um, CS Lewis's Depiction of Heaven is a place I am so on board with. In fact, um, [00:27:00] the, uh, the Messengers. Which is a particular role in his depiction of heaven, because as I understand in, in the, the great divorce, um, not everyone in heaven is capable of even seeing [00:27:15] these ghosts who are on the little field trip from hell.

[00:27:17] Stephanie: Right, right.

[00:27:18] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[00:27:18] Stephanie: Um, so it's only particular people with a specialized role who can go and be the messengers and meet these souls that are visiting from hell that are given this choice. Do you wanna [00:27:30] let go of your sin and be here in heaven with God? Or do you wanna hang onto your sin and go back to hell?

[00:27:36] Stephanie: And, uh, that is my dream job description. I'm like, can I just be one of those [00:27:45] messengers in heaven? That is, that sounds like so much fun.

[00:27:48] Speaker 3: And

[00:27:48] Stephanie: I know God's probably laughing 'cause I'm sure the job is a lot tougher than it looks like from here. But I, I love. I love stories of redemption. I mean, that's, that's part of what brought me to Faith.

[00:27:57] Stephanie: And it's, it's, it's experiences that have [00:28:00] shaped me over the last few years. And it's been a theme on my podcast for anyone who's been listening long enough, you know, that, that I'm looking for stories of redemption and salvation. And I've done that outside of a particularly Christ centered contacts, although some of people's stories here have been Christian.

[00:28:13] Stephanie: Um, but I, [00:28:15] I love those themes. Um, so I just, I just had to share that. I'm like, wow, sign me up for this version of the afterlife. I love this. And, and then my question is like, does that actually, does this fit within the Christian faith? I mean, uh, [00:28:30] 'cause 'cause I, I don't know what the Bible says. I haven't read it all about mm-hmm.

[00:28:34] Stephanie: The afterlife.

[00:28:36] Will: Yeah, the scripture actually says very little about the afterlife. Um, uh, one of the verses that IO often go to is I, as I have [00:28:45] not seen nor ear heard the things which God has planned for those who love him, something to that effect. Scripture of memorization is not my strong suit at the moment, but the idea is being, we are actually know what heaven is.

[00:28:56] Will: We we're not told, we, we see through a glass [00:29:00] darkly, I think is, is another verse. Um, and we know that there will be glorifying God and will be in the presence of Christ. And, and, uh, and, and those who have been saved, also known as the saints, which is not to be confused of the, with the saints from a Catholic perspective.[00:29:15]

[00:29:15] Will: Um, which is, which is a distinction that they had invented, which we can talk about separately perhaps. Um, but the saints is, are all, uh, all saved people. The communion of believers. And that's about as much as we know. And, um. [00:29:30] That that can be very, and that, and that's not what CS Lewis is, is trying to communicate in the great divorce.

[00:29:35] Will: He's not trying to say, this is what heaven is. I think in the introduction of the book, he's pretty clear, like, I'm not trying to tell you what heaven looks like, nor could I do that, but to sort of depict [00:29:45] allegorically, um, the journey of, uh, damnation to faith, the i, the idea that. I think the Messenger role in, uh, in the book, in the Great Divorce is depicted as, as a form of, of people who were in the lives [00:30:00] of the ghosts.

[00:30:00] Will: So just to set the stage for those who have not read the book, uh, who are listening. So the Great Divorce, um, begins with a bunch of people who are in hell and they get on board a bus and they can take a bus from hell up to heaven. And by [00:30:15] taking the bus from hell up to heaven, they have the chance to remain in heaven.

[00:30:18] Will: And so various characters, little vignettes about the choices that people like people from hell have the opportunity to make to remain in heaven or not. Are they going to release [00:30:30] their sin and be saved, or they're gonna hold onto their sin more tightly? And so the, the book explores that. So the character of the, the messengers, the role of the messengers in the book is, uh, are people that were in the lives of the, of the deceased of the dead, [00:30:45] people who were in hell, someone they knew from their life shows up and is basically there to, as an example, to essentially implore them to release their sins, to try and, uh, uh, convince them to, to let go, to show them the way to, I [00:31:00] might say the other, the other side, and many times the ghosts, uh, the, sorry, the messengers that those who are in heaven talk about how willing they would be to sacrifice themselves on behalf of.

[00:31:12] Will: Those who are in hell, like I would give [00:31:15] myself to you if I could. I will, I will do the following things for you in, in humility and service. If you just come with me and, and the ghosts, then the people who are visiting from hell have to make the choice to do that or not. So whether there is a bus from hell up to [00:31:30] heaven, maybe.

[00:31:31] Will: I mean, the point that CS Lewis is making is that hell is a door that is locked from the inside, meaning hell is not a place that God takes us and sends us to because we were bad. Hell is a place that we choose because we're unwilling to let go of our [00:31:45] sinful and prideful ways, that we have a choice to make humility and faith in Christ ultimate humility or pride in sin.

[00:31:52] Will: And those are the two choices that we have to make. One leads to eternal life and the other leads to eternal damnation. [00:32:00] But that is a choice that we have the capacity to make, not that God is choosing. It's like, okay, you're naughty, you're bad. It's like, no, no, you can follow Christ. It's free. It's it, you just have to release yourself.

[00:32:11] Will: And so that's what the book is kind of about. So whether the messengers are real [00:32:15] roles in heaven, I don't really know, but we get to do our best down here.

[00:32:21] Stephanie: Um, I can't remember if it's in that book or another one, but I, I love when CS Lewis says in the end, there are only two types of people, [00:32:30] those who say to God, thy will be done.

[00:32:32] Stephanie: And those to whom God says thy will be done.

[00:32:35] Will: That's right. That's right. And it's, it's so good that you read that book, you've read that book so soon because it, [00:32:45] it's, it's so, it illuminates the nature of, um, of the, of faith. So clearly, especially for, for someone in, in your role as a, I dunno what you call yourself now, counselor, therapist [00:33:00] messenger, whatever.

[00:33:00] Will: Whatever the proper title is, title is now, it's that, that, uh, at, in that role. Will change as, as, as it has for me in terms of how my interaction I work with men in terms of my interaction [00:33:15] with men. That the, the choices that I get to help them make or that I get to illuminate for them, like this is, this is the choice that is before you now.

[00:33:23] Will: It is, it is your way, which hasn't worked and isn't working, and you can, and we can point to all the [00:33:30] ways that it isn't working and probably point to ways that it won't work or God's way. And that is the way that that will work. It's not free. You have to give quite a, you have to die to self, as it said, but what good are, what good are ourselves [00:33:45] anyway.

[00:33:45] Speaker 3: Yeah. You know,

[00:33:46] Will: and I don't mean that in a, I don't mean that in a, a, um, a nihilistic way. I, I mean that all of my years of seeking. Um, for 20 years, uh, including going around the world, [00:34:00] led me in 2019 to the biggest dead end, the biggest dead end, the complete inversion of what all my, all of what all my values were.

[00:34:10] Will: Ev all of my best thoughts led me to a dead end that [00:34:15] praised God. He delivered me from before I even knew him. And so all of our own wisdom is, ends up being fruitless, and we do ultimately have to turn to God for true, uh, true wisdom and righteousness.

[00:34:26] Stephanie: You said before you even knew him.

[00:34:29] Will: Yeah, this was [00:34:30] before I was a Christian.

[00:34:31] Stephanie: Say more.

[00:34:32] Will: Yeah. So, um, I mentioned, um, I mentioned that that, uh, trip to New Zealand where I was listening to a fever, to the form. So while I was there, um, uh, I, I met a woman that I thought I was going to settle down [00:34:45] with. And, uh, so over the course of my travels, I would go back to New Zealand and spend time there.

[00:34:51] Will: And then in 2019 I decided like, okay, well maybe now's the time to actually like, try and make a go of it. Like maybe I'll just stay here and settle in New Zealand. This was summer [00:35:00] of 2019, um, summer in the Northern Hemisphere. It was winter down there. Uh, and I soon, I soon came to see that the situation was not as it appeared and was not going in the direction that I thought it was, or at least [00:35:15] was not going in the direction that my values had had.

[00:35:18] Will: Um. At the time were, so my values had changed quite significantly, and I realized that, uh, I had to leave because it wasn't the place that I thought it was. Um, not that it was [00:35:30] a bad place, but there were many things that were upside down. Let me put it that way. And, um, and so I left and I, uh, I left. It was slow about it.

[00:35:39] Will: I did it cautiously and, um, just respectfully to the people that had, uh, [00:35:45] invested a lot in my life and I had invested myself in theirs. I wanted to be, I wanted to honor them and give thanks to them for sort of adopting me as a nomad in many ways. And so I left in February of 2020. Um, this was three weeks before COVID.[00:36:00]

[00:36:00] Will: I moved into my apartment on March 21st, 2020, which was the day that COVID Lockdowns hit here in Phoenix. And it was during that time that I started reading the first books about Christianity, which was the first one was simply Christian by NT Wright. And on the cover of [00:36:15] that book, the addition that I had was a picture of the Cape Rga Lighthouse.

[00:36:19] Will: Cape rga is the northern most point of the North island of New Zealand. So that was on the cover of my, the first book that I read about Christianity. That started my conversion. And then it wasn't until September [00:36:30] of 2020, uh, about six months later that I finally did get baptized. But in, in September of 2019, when I was grappling with all these questions, just one year earlier, I didn't know Christ.

[00:36:41] Will: I had started reading the Bible. I thought I was, you know, people had been telling me to [00:36:45] write a book, you should really write a book about your travels. I'm like, well, okay. I'll write, maybe I'll write a memoir or a fiction. I fictionalized tale. 'cause you can tell more truth in fiction than you can in nonfiction sometimes.

[00:36:55] Will: So I don't, what, what do I know about writing fiction? Nothing. So, okay. Well I should probably [00:37:00] start by reading the classic books of Western literature and the most important book in the west and western literature. I knew even as a new age guy was the Bible. So I downloaded a copy of the Bible onto my Kindle and started just reading through from Genesis one one and I got all the way to the [00:37:15] arrival of, uh, king David on the scene, I believe in First Samuel is when King David shows up.

[00:37:22] Will: That was as far as I got at the time, and even in, you know, it must have been August, September, or October, something like that, of [00:37:30] 2019. So I, I detected something that there was a shift in the story around the arrival of David. I didn't read any of the gospels, didn't read the New Testament, just read that and as soon as I got to David, I was like, there's something larger going on in this [00:37:45] book than I think I'd realized previously.

[00:37:46] Will: I'd never read the Bible, never encountered it, but I somehow sensed that there was more going on. Then I put it away and then I moved to the United States and ultimately did come to faith and began reading the Bible later. So while I didn't know [00:38:00] God in 2019, he was there and I believe he led me out of this dead end in New Zealand that I'd constructed for myself and then led me to faith in him several months later.[00:38:15]

[00:38:15] Stephanie: As you were saying the words, I didn't know God, it reminds me of another Nick Mulley clip I saw be besides the one I showed you, a different one from the same producers where he shares about a moment of looking at his altar and these things he'd collected from [00:38:30] around the world and his little hanman statue and all these things, and the rock from his favorite mountain.

[00:38:35] Stephanie: And he, he, he described himself looking at this altar and saying, I don't know God.

[00:38:41] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[00:38:42] Stephanie: But you described God's working in your life [00:38:45] before you became a Christian. And this is something that I've been thinking about a lot because in the early stages of my new identity as a Christian, um, I'm, [00:39:00] you know, sorting out what parts of myself are the same, what parts of myself make sense in a new way.

[00:39:08] Stephanie: Um, and there's, you know, moments of. [00:39:15] Moments I look back on where I think of it as the Holy Spirit now. And maybe I thought of it as, I don't know what I thought of it as, but I, I thought of it as something spiritual, something divine in some [00:39:30] way. Um, I'm, I'm not a stranger to prayer, and there were a few big things in my life that I prayed for and received, um, without having a particular framework.

[00:39:42] Stephanie: And, and maybe this is colored by the fact [00:39:45] that I had actually sought God very intensely at a young age, um, when I was, uh, 18, 19, 20 21, um, through Hinduism. Um, you know, praying very intensely during that [00:40:00] time becoming somewhat of a, a obsessive compulsive zealot. Um, because it gave structure to my life and, and allowed me to, uh, seek some kind of renewal, uh, at a time that I [00:40:15] needed it.

[00:40:15] Stephanie: But it also afforded this, it gave me the sort of exotic. Culture, uh, something so different from where I came from that it allowed me to, um, create sort of a, a fantasy version and, and to, to [00:40:30] separate myself in a way. But then it didn't give me anything to reorient with because there was no bridge back from being this young white American girl with an interest in Hinduism to, um, just [00:40:45] mainstream life with, you know, college and jobs and, um, normal people there, there, and there was some connection in different places that I went, but then I, I just found myself struggling to [00:41:00] integrate these different aspects of my, um, identity and, and belief system and things that just didn't really fit together.

[00:41:07] Stephanie: And, um, and then when I stopped being vegetarian in my late twenties, I started really feeling [00:41:15] like. I'm not even a vegetarian. And so what right do I have to, you know, if vegetarianism is a, an important piece of, you know, some of these forms of worship. So, you know, that was, that [00:41:30] was the, the form in which I was comfortable approaching God or an image of God of some kind or the idea of God when I was younger.

[00:41:41] Stephanie: And, um, but there were a lot of [00:41:45] problems with it and things that didn't make sense or add up. So I, I think though that because of that part of my life in which I was in some sense [00:42:00] devout, um, that. Kept some sense in me of, um, spiritual openness and of, I guess this kind of like a [00:42:15] very unstructured, like, I don't know what to call it.

[00:42:19] Stephanie: But then I would, you know, pray sometimes and didn't know exactly who I was praying to, but I did know that I had felt God's hand in my life in some ways. Like [00:42:30] for instance, one story that always comes to mind when I think about this is a time that I helped a stranger. Um, there was, um, I was really just walking down the street and I saw a situation that seemed concerning and I felt [00:42:45] very guided in timing exactly when to stop and listen and pay attention to what was happening over there and exactly when to approach this woman in need.

[00:42:57] Stephanie: And, you know, as it turns out, what. [00:43:00] What happened over the course of the several hours that day is that I am pretty sure that God moved me to help get this woman to safety who was in a very bad situation. Um, it was a, it was only like [00:43:15] her second date with this guy, and English was her second language.

[00:43:19] Stephanie: She wasn't American. She was from a different culture. So she was at a disadvantage in terms of understanding the language and culture. And this guy was definitely not treating a woman the way you should be treating a woman [00:43:30] on a second date, let's just say. And, and I just, I, I got her out of there and, um, and it was, it was very much like a trusting timing.

[00:43:41] Stephanie: Trusting, you know, and I just approached a stranger. So I think about that, you know, as a [00:43:45] time that, um, I felt guided by something bigger and. There have been other things in my life. I feel very much in my work, like I am helped by something much bigger than me. Um, and um, [00:44:00] so there, there is a couple of big things in my life that I prayed over and, you know, one of them was for career guidance in my twenties and that led me to counseling school.

[00:44:08] Stephanie: And, um, one of them was, uh, for my husband in my thirties and, [00:44:15] and I found him. So, um, so I guess I think about these, uh, times in my life where the Holy Spirit was acting in some way, or when I prayed and received something before the Christian context and, [00:44:30] you know, I start thinking about these things and then I find some doubt, like, well, you know, where, where does this fit within the Christian context?

[00:44:41] Stephanie: And I'm, I'm wondering. Your feedback on that and what your process [00:44:45] was like of kind of integrating those moments where you felt like God's grace had affected you before you had fully accepted him. Many of you listening to this show are concerned about an adolescent or young adult you care about who's caught up in the gender [00:45:00] insanity, and therefore at risk of medical self-destruction.

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[00:45:41] Will: So scripture [00:45:45] says that, um, God chooses us before the foundations of the world. What that, and, uh, this is, uh, a component of Christianity called reformed theology, which we don't have to get into in depth now, but this is what the word said, that [00:46:00] God chooses those he loves before the foundations of the world.

[00:46:02] Will: Meaning that before he, even before Genesis one, one, essentially all of our stories as believers are, are written in his book. Meaning there was never a moment in our lives where he [00:46:15] was not with us, and we were not his. We may not have known it. In fact, we didn't. We may have even believed that the, the opposite that many people like Paul in scripture, Saul.

[00:46:28] Will: Saul was a violent persecutor. [00:46:30] Christians killed them and imprisoned them, was chasing them on the roads of does Damascus. When God appeared to him, when the Lord appeared to him, that story was written from, for the foundations of the world. And so, uh, and that's true [00:46:45] for all of us. And so as I. Came to understand that.

[00:46:50] Will: And I looked back over the course of my life, I could see little ways that I was aware of God showing up and [00:47:00] redirecting me. I could, I could see those, you know, as early as high school. Uh, I could also see many instances where I was sure that God protected me, meaning he did not allow things to get as bad as they could, you know, [00:47:15] doing 15 ayahuasca ceremonies, like when I tell people that, you know, anything could have happened in those ceremonies.

[00:47:21] Will: And then I didn't just, not just ayahuasca, but, but you know, Wachuma, San Pedro cactus, three of those experiences, mushrooms and acid [00:47:30] countless times. Um, five M-E-O-D-M-T Buffo varus, two ceremonies of that, which was the last psychedelic I ever did, which was of a conclusive moment in my life where God showed up in a, and even though I didn't know him.

[00:47:44] Will: Showed up in [00:47:45] some very clear and unmistakable ways. So there are moments and, and moments in my life that I was aware that God protected me and probably countless others, where I have no idea that he was there, where we, we will never know the [00:48:00] things that don't happen to us. And, and that's, you know, when people look for evidence of they want, wanna know evidence of God in their lives, they're looking for miracles and they may be looking for big, showy things, maybe not necessarily the parting of the Red Sea, but the reality [00:48:15] is for God's children, for his, for his people, for his elect, God is preventing disasters may be preventing disasters from happening to us all the time.

[00:48:26] Will: And so we can give thanks for our very lives because we [00:48:30] never know, you know what Red light, uh, have forbid that the drunk driver hit. You know, at one, one intersection before ours, like results are endless. I don't mean that to inspire fear and anxiety, but to know that, to, uh, to trust, to know that, [00:48:45] that I'm the Lord as scripture says, trust to know that I'm God.

[00:48:48] Will: So, you know, I can think of many instances in, in my life where I know now that God showed up for me, where I knew then that something had happened to, uh, deliver me [00:49:00] from difficult consequences, from blessings that he's brought to me that I've prayed for, that I couldn't even put words to. And that's the thing that I think can be very scary.

[00:49:11] Will: About believing in a, a personal God as opposed to some [00:49:15] nebulous universe, because I used to pray to the universe, you know, I didn't, I was praying like you, I didn't know who or what I was praying to. Am I just praying to myself? Am I praying to some higher version of myself? Like I am that right. So I don't exist.

[00:49:28] Will: My conscience like [00:49:30] cosmic consciousness exists. Am I, I'm praying to that, but I, you know, right. So the big confusion nonetheless, I, I, I prayed, um, and the realization that I think. Um, scares people about having a personal God is there is a [00:49:45] God. This is Theo. This is, um, theism. There's a God separate from creation, not pantheism, that all is God or pantheism.

[00:49:52] Will: That all is in God, but theism that God is God in creation are separate and God is sovereign over creation and has [00:50:00] omnipotence, uh, and omnipresence and omni benevolence. God knows everything. God is everywhere. And, and God is all benevolent, but there's still this very intimidating notion that You mean God is in my, he he knows my thoughts right now.

[00:50:14] Will: Yeah. He's known them all [00:50:15] day. He's known everything that I've ever done. Yeah. He saw all of that, you know, all of the sins that you committed, all the things that you think no one knows about, God knows about it. That's a very scary, a very scary thought for for many people, particularly if, you know, you think, we think we get away with it, you know, [00:50:30] and you know, from a earthly perspective, maybe we do, but from a a, a heavenly percent perspective, a transcendent perspective, we, we don't, but it's only.

[00:50:40] Will: That it's, it's only in that realization that there is a personal God who is, [00:50:45] who does love us and God is omni benevolent, uh, that does love us and is looking out for us and does want to bless us and pour out his blessings upon us that gave his son for us. It's only in that, that we can find peace and that may [00:51:00] require us to get past ourselves and to confess things that we don't want to confess to ourselves and also to anyone who may have impacted, we may have impacted, and that can be very, very hard.

[00:51:12] Will: And don't, don't I know it in my [00:51:15] own life, but that is the, that is the way of true peace. Keeping these things buried within ourselves or casting our hopes onto some nebulous universe doesn't actually bring us peace, but more anxiety. But bringing the things up that need to be brought up and knowing that [00:51:30] a, a personal God is there guiding us and offering us redemption is the, is the only way that any of us can, can find peace.

[00:51:37] Will: And then we don't just get peace. We get what's called the peace that surpasses understanding such a peace that is so deep that we can't [00:51:45] actually understand it. That doesn't mean we're always at peace all the time, but there's a deep knowing. Death. Death, where is your sting? That there is, that there is, there's, uh, eternity with God.

[00:51:57] Will: Uh, there is. [00:52:00] Uh, blessings beyond our comprehension, let's put it that way, that is waiting for us if we can just get past ourselves. But once we do, that piece becomes very, very real. And, and to go back to the conversation about music, this is perhaps why a lot of angst isn't [00:52:15] present in Christian music, because what is there ultimately to be anxious over?

[00:52:18] Will: You know, not that there aren't things in life that are stressful, difficult, challenging. Not that we won't face trials, but we are assured over and over again throughout scripture that God is with us in trials [00:52:30] and trials, produce, produce, faithfulness and endurance. And that is where we root our hope. And all these things fit together to create the life of believers.

[00:52:38] Will: And I'm grateful that, that the Christians that you had in your life were people that represented this to you and create an [00:52:45] experience of inviting you in to share something that they have. Like the great divorce,

[00:52:50] Stephanie: you highlighted the, I don't wanna say dual nature of the faith, but I'm struggling to find a better phrase because there are these [00:53:00] messages that seem contradictory on a certain level, right?

[00:53:04] Stephanie: The message that God has a perfect standard and knows not only everything you do, but everything you think, right? Which, which that message alone can induce [00:53:15] terror and paranoia and a level of self scrutiny that could easily turn into obsessive compulsive rumination that doesn't do anybody any good. And then there's the message of salvation.

[00:53:28] Stephanie: Which [00:53:30] counterbalances that. Right? And, and this is where, um, I think this is a pretty big selling point for the Christian faith. And, and, and I haven't seen this anywhere outside of the Christian faith and, and it's life experiences [00:53:45] over the last several years, including many I've shared on this podcast with my listeners who've been following along that have led me to the necessity of that.

[00:53:54] Stephanie: Um, so, you know, one, one thing I've, I've shared a few times now, um, [00:54:00] is that in the process of being essentially persecuted myself, which is, is not an unfamiliar role, I was scapegoated as a child. Um, but in the process of being persecuted as a gender critical therapist, you know, with all the people trying to take away my [00:54:15] license for making anti-trans remarks and things like that, and by the way.

[00:54:19] Stephanie: I'm not gonna defend, I'm not gonna say it's not transphobic to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. No, no, no. These are made up words. You can call me anti-trans. I don't care. Um, so, you know, in, in, in the face of the [00:54:30] persecution that I've experienced, not only from uh, people who believe in gender ideology, but even from people on my own side of the issue who, uh, decide to target or attack me for whatever reason, which has happened a few times now as [00:54:45] well.

[00:54:45] Stephanie: None of them have been Christians by the way. Um, you know, it's never, it's never the Christians in my life, um, doing that sort of thing. But it's, it's when I've been attacked, especially when I'm, when I've been attacked from all sides, [00:55:00] that I find myself in this position where I'm like, I feel very tempted to defend myself.

[00:55:07] Stephanie: But I'm not actually interested in spending my life defending myself. Um, I, [00:55:15] I guess my, my understanding of what it is to be human and what life is about is, is just on a completely different wavelength from the people who want to pull me into battle and tempt me to, um, to defend [00:55:30] my own ego, because my framework is that we are all fallen.

[00:55:34] Stephanie: That's, that's my framework, and I don't want to accept criticism that is offered, uh, [00:55:45] in bad faith, which it has been. Right? The, the, the things that have been weaponized against me have been incredibly uncharitable distortions of things that I've said. So when someone behaves that way, I'm like, well, [00:56:00] okay, charity is a value that we do not have in common, you know, because I would never.

[00:56:06] Stephanie: On the other side of this, I would never take someone's words in such bad faith and, and twist them around so viciously as has been done to me. [00:56:15] So I can see that there's a value difference there. Um, but I, I don't wanna get pulled into battle over it. And, and so it's been these trials that I've been through that have, um, sort of affirmed to me that my values that I wanna be guided by are essentially [00:56:30] Christian values.

[00:56:31] Stephanie: And that's part of what's, uh, brought me here. But at the same time, I'm still aware of that, um, the, the tension of, of living with the knowledge that, um, that God does have a perfect standard for [00:56:45] us and that we are all fallen and God does know all of our thoughts and. We're forgiven and we are given salvation in Jesus Christ.

[00:56:53] Stephanie: Um, but it's a little bit, I, I guess there's a part that I still find unsettling. Um, and, and I think, you know, the [00:57:00] screw tape letters is, uh, when I was reading the Screw Tape letters, which I read before the Great Divorce, it made me a little paranoid because, um, you know, so well you did a great job of articulating for people who haven't heard the [00:57:15] premise of the Great Divorce, what that was.

[00:57:16] Stephanie: And I'll, I will articulate the premise of the screw tape letters for those who don't know, which is basically, um, an uncle and a nephew demon, uh, and the uncle's writing letters to the nephew Demon, giving him guidance and instruction on [00:57:30] how to tempt a particular human away from the faith. And, um, and it's comical and it's meant to shed a light on all the ways that evil can be sneaky.

[00:57:43] Stephanie: But as I was going through it, I was like, [00:57:45] oh, evil is so sneaky. It's showing up in my thoughts in all these little ways and how am I ever gonna,

[00:57:51] Will: yep. It's kind of paranoia, ding a little bit.

[00:57:56] Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:57:58] Will: So, [00:58:00] um, this is great because, uh, there's a, there's a great answer for this and it goes back to the subject, uh, that I mentioned earlier of, uh, reform theology.

[00:58:09] Will: Now, reform theology, uh, derive is, is totally [00:58:15] derived from the words of scripture, not from tradition, which differentiates reform theology, Protestant Reformation from the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church says that we have scripture and we have our tradition from the [00:58:30] magisterium, the teaching authority of the church.

[00:58:31] Will: And these two are. Intended to be parallel authorities that, that, uh, the Catholic believers derive their faith and life guidance from ultimately tradition is superior over scripture. But that is a, that's [00:58:45] a later conversation. So what reform theology teaches, and this is, this is drawn directly from the words of scripture, is that all fell in Adam, all, all fell in Adam.

[00:58:59] Will: [00:59:00] When Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit. The all of humanity that would ultimately come from them fell as well. And, uh, so did the creation in a very real sense, the earth and the cosmos in, in a very real [00:59:15] sense. So, uh, at that moment, all of humanity in Adam and Eve chose not God. There's two choices. You know, thy, thy will be done Lord, or the Lord says, thy will be done.

[00:59:29] Will: [00:59:30] Adam and Eve. Chose to do their own will in direct opposition to what God had said. And so then we, we made a choice. And so all of humanity fell and made that choice. So everyone who came after them [00:59:45] was, uh, immediately by choosing not God. 'cause we were not, we would not have been able to stand up to the serpent if you and me were to meet the serpent, whatever the serpent was in the garden.

[00:59:55] Will: We are so many generations decayed from that original state of creation [01:00:00] that we would be powerless in the face of actual Satan. Like Adam and Eve didn't. They were not able to really put up much of a fight. And so we wouldn't either. So, um, so all of humanity essentially, uh, what became [01:00:15] destined for damnation in, in that moment.

[01:00:17] Will: So it's not just the fall, I've heard it referred to as a crash. It was a cosmic catastrophe. Way bigger than just a fall. Oh, I trip and fell. No, no. This is a cosmic catastrophe. Scripture teaches is [01:00:30] from all of humanity that came later. Uh, God chooses his elect from, from among the fallen, and he sends his Holy Spirit, gives them the eyes of faith, and they can [01:00:45] then perceive God and love Him, and love His law through God's intervention in their life.

[01:00:50] Will: God, their life, God comes down to us. We cannot ascend up to him. And this is really important. And we don't know why God chooses us. It's [01:01:00] not because we earned it. It's not because we earned it. It's not because we somehow have made ourselves worthy of it. It's that God's sovereignly chooses those he will save.

[01:01:08] Will: Now, this is from the cosmic perspective looking down, which we can't understand from the bottom up perspective. We do have [01:01:15] choices. We do. Our choices are real. Our free will is a real thing, and that's a, the, the, uh, the paradox of free will and God's sovereignty is a much larger discussion. So we do have choices, but from the perspective of scripture, this is what it says, is that God sovereignly, elects those who will [01:01:30] be saved, not because of any virtue inherent in us.

[01:01:33] Will: It's not that God saves only the quote unquote good people. God saves murderers and drug addicts and liars and cheats. God saves those people. God saves the, God saves [01:01:45] Paul, who was a, a murderer, God saves Peter, obviously who denied Christ, you know, to his face. God, the whole story is, this whole scripture is stories of redemption, right?

[01:01:54] Will: So it's it. There's nothing earning worthy in us. It's that God comes down into our lives and [01:02:00] elects us to salvation. But what that also means. To speak into the paranoia about an unattainable standard is that we can't earn our way up through perfect performance. We can't earn salvation. Perfection is not expected.

[01:02:14] Will: That is [01:02:15] not what God expects. We, none of us can ever live in total alignment with the 10 Commandments. So the 10 Commandments are a total summation of the moral law. Every right and wrong, or every, every sin and every virtuous action can be categorized in one of the [01:02:30] 10 Commandments. Right? So, so people will say, why is there no, uh, why is there no commandment against sexual assault?

[01:02:36] Will: Because there isn't a specific commandment. Thou shalt not it's filed under the category of adultery is what that goes under. And so it's a summation of the moral lodge. It's, [01:02:45] it can also probably be filed under, um, thou shalt not covet. Thy neighbor's wife is probably where it would also fit as well. So you can find any sin categorized somewhere in the 10 Commandments, the first commandment.

[01:02:57] Will: Is to honor God, to worship [01:03:00] God above all I right. And so none of us are doing that all of the time. We are all focusing on things that are not God. And I'm disappointed in myself that I can't think of the immediate words of the 10 Commandments right now. It's been the first commandments. It's been a, [01:03:15] it's been a very long day and I should probably repent for that one.

[01:03:18] Will: But we are, none of us all, we get caught up in our own petty squabbles in within ourselves, or we have conflict with other people, or we sin in, in little ways. None of us [01:03:30] can perfectly keep the law. This is all throughout the New Testament. Paul is writing this. None of us can perfectly keep the law. We're not expected to perfectly keep the law.

[01:03:38] Will: Christ's sacrifice was to make up the gap that through our entire lives, will exist as a result [01:03:45] of not perfectly keeping the law. That's like today, yesterday, and every day to follow. Christ's sacrifice covers that for his people, and what that can do is bring a great peace onto us overachievers for thinking that we don't have to be [01:04:00] perfect to be saved.

[01:04:01] Will: That's not the, that's not the point. The point is repent and believe. The point is continual growth. If you struggle with the same sin today. Work on it until you overcome it. Pray to God to intervene in your life and in your heart to send His [01:04:15] Holy Spirit to illuminate sins, to illuminate the sin and show you the way to move past it.

[01:04:19] Will: Continue. Do not give up. Lean on the Lord and not on your own understanding. And that is a process that's called sanctification. And that is what is what happens during the course of a [01:04:30] believer's life. From when they get saved to when they're called home, that they continually grow in, uh, in likeness to Christ.

[01:04:38] Will: They don't become Christ, but they become Christ-like sins that were once a problem, no longer are things that they didn't realize that [01:04:45] they were doing. They recognize and then they repent and then no longer do it. And so the life of a believer practiced faithfully is an increasing life of holiness, meaning being set apart.

[01:04:55] Will: That's what it means to be holy. So over the course of a life of, of believer, there [01:05:00] comes for people on the outside who don't believe there's something about. Those people, the Christians that I don't, can't put my finger on, but there's something different about them. It's because they've been sanctified, they're still in the world.

[01:05:12] Will: They still walk around to do all the things they, they will [01:05:15] do evangelize, evangelism, or maybe they won't, but there will be something different about them. And that is a growth and personal holiness. And so that is what it means to be sanctified as a believer to grow. And that doesn't mean that I'll have to, to do this checklist of [01:05:30] 10 things that I have to do every day.

[01:05:31] Will: No, no. It's, God meets you where you're at. And he has, he has saved people who are genuinely what we might call reprehensible people. In fact, as an example. You can read the book, run Baby, run by [01:05:45] Nikki Cruz. It's the story of a 1950s, um, gang leader, so street gang, and I think it's in New York in the 1950s.

[01:05:53] Will: He's from I believe, Puerto Rico. And he comes over here as a young man, a teenager, and you know, he begins running a street [01:06:00] gang, drugs, violence and everything. And Nikki Cruz, Cruz talks about who he was beforehand and then how he got saved and the turnaround of his life. And as you see this, he's very honest and very, you know, gripping ways about the man that he was.

[01:06:13] Will: God saved that person. It [01:06:15] wasn't because Nikki Cruz was somehow worthy or Nick Cruz could somehow earn his salvation. It's that God intervened in Nikki Cruz's life in a definitive way, opened his eyes as God opened the eyes of Paul and led him through a life of sanctification and holiness to the [01:06:30] point that where he could write this incredibly.

[01:06:31] Will: Bestselling book, millions of copies have been sold. And so to people who hear discussions of the 10 Commandments that hear God, knowing your thoughts, words, and actions, you know, you know, past, present, and future, and feel intimidated by that [01:06:45] fact, you don't need to be intimidated because it's a standard that you need to or should perform up to.

[01:06:52] Will: In fact, God's love and grace covers all of it. Christ died for those sins in the past, for the sins in the present and for your sins in the [01:07:00] future. For all of ours that's already been spoken for. Your responsibility as a believer is to grow in holiness and sanctification and constantly be working towards that in terms of prayer and scripture reading, coming to know God, to love God, to [01:07:15] to be more like his son and to work on that every single day in faithfulness and, and patience.

[01:07:20] Will: And not to be like, well I didn't do a good job today, so God's angry at me. Like, well, you know, you might have done something really bad, you know, but if you are, if you're truly [01:07:30] saved, then you should be called to repent of that and then say, I never wanna do that again. This is the old me to, I want to put off the old man and become the new man.

[01:07:37] Will: And so again, it's not a standard to perform, uh, perform to. It's a likeness to be conformed to which is Christ. [01:07:45]

[01:07:46] Stephanie: And we do that not to earn salvation, but to give thanks for it.

[01:07:51] Will: Correct. Correct. 'cause we can't earn it. It was a gift. We can't, we can't earn it. And we can talk about Calvinism if you want. We can't earn it.

[01:07:59] Will: And, [01:08:00] and, and scripture also says that we can't lose it. If we are truly safe, we cannot lose it. God will, uh, sustain his elect until, until the day that they're called home. Um, and what do you do with a gift if you've ever received a gift of immense value? The gift of salvation. The [01:08:15] gift of, I mean, it's, it's difficult to put into words, but the creator of the universe, God is Trinity, father, son, and Holy Spirit, three persons.

[01:08:25] Will: And one being he sent his son one third of [01:08:30] himself. Down to earth, not one I I'm gonna use messy language. Please just go with me here to earth, to suffer, to live a perfect life, a sinless life which none of us can do. And to suffer and die, a, a, a [01:08:45] petty criminal's death to be abused and betrayed, and to have his body be destroyed in a, in a painful way to pay for all our sins.

[01:08:55] Will: The creator of the universe did that, that God did that for [01:09:00] us so that we can be united to him in faith and, and receive eternal life and salvation. There is no greater gift in all, on all of Earth in the entire cosmos than that. And so when someone gives you [01:09:15] a gift, if you understand the night nature of the gift, what do you do with the gift?

[01:09:20] Will: You treasure it and you honor it, and you give thanks for it, and you let it change you. You don't, you can't earn it. None of us can, none of us [01:09:30] can earn that gift. But we are called to honor it and treasure it and to take it seriously and not to merely discard it.

[01:09:36] Stephanie: So I have this list of notes I've been taking throughout our conversation of all the things I wanna circle back to, and we're definitely not gonna get to [01:09:45] all of them.

[01:09:46] Stephanie: Um, let me at least get this one out of the way. Um, I didn't wanna interrupt you when you were talking about my client work, because that wasn't the important point you were making, but for listeners, I wanna clarify, as anyone who's been listening to this [01:10:00] podcast for a while knows that I have not treated therapy patients in a while.

[01:10:03] Stephanie: Uh, not because, not because of the standing of my license, which remains in good standing, although I might choose to switch it to an active status, um, because I'm not actively using my license per se, [01:10:15] um, because God has blessed me with, uh, work that is uniquely suited for me. And I've had my hands full ever since I made the change to specifically coaching and educating parents of trans [01:10:30] identified youth in how to communicate with them.

[01:10:31] Stephanie: And my clients don't care about whether I am, you know, practicing as a licensed marriage and family therapist or not. They come to me because they recognize I have valuable insights on the things [01:10:45] that they're really struggling with. And so, because, um, I've been busy with that, I, uh, call my work coaching and, um, and I wanted to comment on that because, uh, listeners who are [01:11:00] atheists are going to be disappointed just as much as listeners who are Christians are going to be happy, um, that we're having this conversation.

[01:11:08] Stephanie: And, um, one thing I wanna say about atheists is that they can be very literal. [01:11:15] And, um, for years before becoming a Christian, there were times that I wished that I could use the word God in, in a, a rather flexible way. I think, um, sometimes we need to [01:11:30] reference, uh, something bigger than ourselves. And I, I felt frustrated that it wasn't easier and more natural to do so in the course of everyday conversation.

[01:11:41] Stephanie: And that I only had a few friends with whom I could, you know, speak of God. [01:11:45] Um, and so, uh, the other day I, I posted some something on X, it was like mental health reminder of the day for parents of ROGD youth. And it was something like, um, your job is to [01:12:00] plant the seed, not to change their heart. Don't confuse your role with gods.

[01:12:04] Stephanie: And it was something like that that I shared. And, uh, no shade on this particular person. I don't know who they are, but someone commented, someone who's an atheist commented, you know, good point. [01:12:15] Except for the God part, you know, blah, blah, blah. Some of us are, you know, some of us have our scars about spiritual stuff or, you know, whatever their point was.

[01:12:23] Stephanie: And I, for me, I think the thing that just slightly irritated me about that was that [01:12:30] it's like I, I know what it's like to not be a Christian. And, uh, and I, I still felt like, um, you don't have to be quite so literal [01:12:45] about everything all the time. Even if you're not a believer, like, like something like saying don't, don't, don't confuse your role with God's role.

[01:12:53] Stephanie: Um, I, I think you don't have to even have any particular definition of God to see the [01:13:00] wisdom in that statement. And so, one thing I find freeing. About becoming a Christian is that I can speak with fellow Christians about God, and I know that that will upset certain listeners of this podcast who feel excluded by that or who feel like the, like, that means I'm [01:13:15] narrowing my focus.

[01:13:16] Stephanie: And um, you know what, what Nick Moy said in some of his stuff that he was posting about his conversion was, sorry if this loses me some folks, but hello and welcome to the new people. Um, [01:13:30] and I guess what, what is the point that I'm trying to make here? I think that, uh, you know, because I've learned to anticipate what the uncharitable and bad faith and just kind of distorted reactions to things will [01:13:45] be, I can imagine people projecting a worry or an accusation that being a Christian affects my coaching.

[01:13:55] Stephanie: Um, and what I will say about this is that a number [01:14:00] of my clients are Christian. And I welcome them to bring their faith into our work. And we can pray for your children together, if you like. And for those who are not, um, uh, I think that the values that I've been guided by have [01:14:15] been pretty clear and consistent throughout a lot of what I've done.

[01:14:19] Stephanie: And that the process of becoming a Christian and naming that and um, making it explicit is not a significant [01:14:30] deviation from the direction that I've been headed for several years. Um, I think, uh, there's always the possible accusation. Again, I struggle to see this as anything but bad faith that I will [01:14:45] impose my views on people.

[01:14:47] Stephanie: Um, and I would hope that. No, I'm not gonna respond to that accusation because it's, it's, I'm trying to take the ones that I can see as coming from an innocent place and respond to those in a generous way. [01:15:00] But it's also, you know, there's, there's a line you draw when, when you get the sort of bad faith. So I'm like, where do I draw that line with what deserves a response or not?

[01:15:10] Stephanie: I'm gonna, I'm gonna pause there and let you respond. Well,

[01:15:12] Will: yeah, I totally, I totally understand. [01:15:15] You know, um, there's so much, there's so much in there. But before I, I do, I, I do wanna read, um, Exodus 20. Okay. Um, which is the 10 Commandments. 'cause I wanna make sure to get that right. Kind of important. Yeah. So this is Exodus [01:15:30] 20 verse one, the 10 Commandments.

[01:15:32] Will: Then God spoke all these words saying, I'm the Lord your God who brought you outta the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before me. That is the first commandment. Not just that you should honor God, but you should. No, gods [01:15:45] before. Before God. And there are ways in which all of us make ourselves little Gods doing, doing our will over God's will.

[01:15:53] Will: And that's just part of being human. That's part of being human is to be, to be and to live imperfectly [01:16:00] and to never fully be able to keep the law. In fact, I think before we started, we, we were talking a bit about the, the Pharisees. The Pharisees pretended to keep the law outwardly. Um, but they were whitewashed tombs.

[01:16:13] Will: They behaved in this very, you [01:16:15] know, in this very, um. I might say legalistic, performative way, but insides their heart inside their hearts were rotten. And that's what Christ is saying is that yes, you can appear to keep the law outwardly, you can appear to, but it's only [01:16:30] through an inner transformation of the heart that we can begin learning to love and keep the law fully.

[01:16:35] Will: And that is a journey that progresses over the course of a lifetime. And so, uh, regarding, um, regarding what you said about, uh, impo, uh, your [01:16:45] clients and literally, um, the word use of the word God and, and people's responses to when they find out that, uh, that you're a Christian and whether they will like it or, or not, um, and whether some people will stick around [01:17:00] or not.

[01:17:00] Will: It, it's a simple fact that some people simply will not stick around. Um, there, there is a verse in scripture. We are, um, the aroma of life to, um. Those who are living in the aroma of death to those who are perishing. Meaning there's, [01:17:15] in the same way that, uh, I mentioned earlier that people who pursue personal holiness have a, there's something about that guy that I can't put my finger on if it's appealing.

[01:17:27] Will: That's the aroma of life. This, these people, like, I think Nick [01:17:30] Baldy talks about it. You've talked about it. These people seem to have something that I want. In fact, when I went to go visit my friends in Coeur d'Alene and I heard the Bethel song, the friends who later baptized me a few years later and gave me simply Christian by Auntie Wright, they had the aroma of life about them.

[01:17:44] Will: I could [01:17:45] pick up something. I may have had an, an important, I might say, visionary experience on the playa with them. But that wasn't what did it. It was going to spend time with them in their homes and seeing the way that they lived and detecting the aroma of life. They're not faking it. [01:18:00] This is real that's going on here, and I've never seen something like this before.

[01:18:03] Will: But this is, and I said this to myself at the time. This is what I somehow always imagined Christians would be, but I, I hadn't yet met them, particularly living in the Bay Area. It's quite difficult. And so [01:18:15] that was what really sparked my curiosity and why I kept in touch with them while I, while I traveled, doing all the perennial man things.

[01:18:22] Will: So to some, that's the aroma of life to others, they call out the aroma of death. They, they [01:18:30] hate it. They're repulsed by it for many, many, many, many reasons. In fact, I, uh, through some circumstances I realized some people in my family perceive me that way, unfortunately. And so, uh, but it's not [01:18:45] unfamiliar in the life of believers that as we simply become Christians ourselves and seek to live in a holy way and use the name of Christ and use the word God, that some people are just deeply put off by that.

[01:18:59] Will: But it shouldn't [01:19:00] be a surprise because Christ himself came to earth to save sinners. People murdered him for his trouble, right? They had that visceral reaction to him. In fact, I actually, I, I wanna read, um, my, [01:19:15] my favorite passage in scripture, one of them, but certainly it's quite high up on the list. It's top three for sure, is John.

[01:19:21] Will: Everyone knows John three 16, but not everyone has read John three 19 through 21. So I'll read John three 16 and this will, this will [01:19:30] lay it out so everyone knows John three 16. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

[01:19:40] Will: Very famous verse, but you have to continue reading for God did [01:19:45] not send the son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through him. Gift. He who believes in him, he who believes in him is not judged. He who does not believe has been judged already because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten [01:20:00] son of God.

[01:20:01] Will: This is the judgment and these three verses are the important ones for what I'm talking about. This is the judgment that the light has come into the world and men loved the darkness rather than, rather than the light for their deeds. Were evil. For everyone who does [01:20:15] evil hates the light and does not come to the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed, but he who practices the truth comes to the light so that his deeds may be manifested, maybe manifested as having been wrought in God.

[01:20:29] Will: So when we [01:20:30] talk about the aroma of death and the aroma of life, those who are seeking righteousness want to bring their light, their, their deeds into the light so they can see, Lord, I was mistaken, but I was seeking you and as many of us were and are, and did things that were [01:20:45] very sincere, but they were sincerely wrong, myself included.

[01:20:48] Will: And so, but then there are people that hate the light because their deeds were evil and they wish to hide. And those are often, not always, but those are often the people that have the [01:21:00] most visceral response to simply someone saying simply the word of God. Simply the word God. I don't know. I'm not talking about this person on X.

[01:21:07] Will: You understand? I have no idea who that person is. I don't know

[01:21:10] Stephanie: who they are either. Yeah. Right.

[01:21:11] Will: So, so I don't want, if, if that person should listen to this, I don't want you to hear me [01:21:15] talking about you 'cause I don't know you. Right? Yeah. It's not personal. But they're the people who often have the most visceral reaction to people simply using the name of Christ.

[01:21:24] Will: Right? They, that they smell the aroma of death. Scripture says that, that their, [01:21:30] in many cases, their deeds were evil and they don't want to come to the light. And that is a, that is a feature, not a bug of being a Christian, is that is just part of being set apart, of being holy. That yes, we are in this world.

[01:21:43] Will: And, and, and it's really [01:21:45] important, and this is where I think a lot of people don't like Christians, and perhaps for good reason is there is a way that a person can be a, can call themselves a Christian and puff themselves up as holier than thou, right? That is, that is a real thing. And it is terrible [01:22:00] and it is not how Christ conducted, excuse me, conducted himself or his apostles conducted themselves.

[01:22:05] Will: They were all, you know, quite humble. Moses was described. I think he's described as like the most humble man in the history of the world is how he's described actually. Literally, I [01:22:15] think it's in Leviticus probably. And so like Christians believers are called to be very humble. Now that doesn't mean that we can't, we can't be direct in our speech we're called to, um.

[01:22:27] Will: Speak, uh, seasoned with salt. So we're not [01:22:30] supposed to just be so istic and you know, be blown over by every wind, but we are called to present ourselves and, and to be dignified. But there's a way of being holier than thou that we're not supposed to be. So that properly pursued Christian life, we do take on a character of [01:22:45] holiness that will be attractive to some people.

[01:22:47] Will: Like what? What is it that makes that person different? And there will some, there are some people that will be repulsed by it and will actually be drawn to attack it as happened with Christ. And that is just part of it. And it shows up in personal [01:23:00] lives. It shows up in professional lives, it shows up in creative lives, and it showed up for the history of believers.

[01:23:05] Will: And that's why we have martyrs. That's why many of the early Christians in the, in the first century of the church were killed by the Roman Empire. You know, lit Miro, lit them on [01:23:15] fire, you know, devoured by lions for sport, things like that. And that's part of it that we will be hated because we are set apart and loved by God.

[01:23:22] Will: But for the gift of salvation, what's one life?

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[01:24:08] Stephanie: Alright, now back to the show. Yeah, and I'm prepared to accept that and when I think about, I mean, first of all, [01:24:15] I've, that is nothing new to me. Persecution is nothing new to me. It's just being persecuted as a Christian, I'm in good company. Um, and, and when I think about the, the nature of, of some of those attacks, I think.

[01:24:28] Stephanie: Again, I, I [01:24:30] compare values. I think, would I ever do that? No. I would never attack someone for their faith. I would never say some of the nasty things that people say, your God does not exist, and things like that. So that for me is a filter because I, you know, when I can recognize that someone's behavior is, must be driven [01:24:45] by a much different set of values than the ones that I hold, it's easier for me to not measure myself by, by their standards.

[01:24:52] Stephanie: And I think that's one of the, um, things that's so relieving about having a faith as you know exactly what standards you're being measured by. [01:25:00] Um, and I, I think my, uh, my intention here in, in making any kind of clarification about my work is really for, um. Not, not for people who are evil. Um, it's, it's not, [01:25:15] it's not for people who would viciously attack someone for their faith, but, but those who have genuinely been wounded by, you know, misuse of the word of God or because, and I do have a lot of compassion for people who have wounds around religion, and I think it was [01:25:30] freeing for me to realize that's not my story.

[01:25:32] Stephanie: Um, you know, I, I feel for people whose story that is, but I've been through many. Many difficult things in life, but none of them were at the hands of Christians. Um, except for that one mean girl in elementary school whose father was [01:25:45] a preacher who would always tell me I was going to hell. And she was my, like nemesis because we were both teacher's pet competing for the highest grade.

[01:25:51] Stephanie: Um, you know, besides that one girl in elementary school, um, who I, I trust is in a better place now in midlife. Um, besides her, you know, I, [01:26:00] my, my issues have not been with Christians. And so that's, that's not my particular issue, but I do want to reach out to all, all well-meaning people who are sincerely looking for the help that I offer and reassure them [01:26:15] that, um, the help I offer is.

[01:26:18] Stephanie: Attuned to where people are at. And that is what I do in the coaching work I do. It's very deeply personalized and I've worked with people from every religion and, and people who are not religious. And I, I do adapt. [01:26:30] And I think there are certain places where there might be a be a values clash that needs to be articulated, but that's why when I start working with new people, I always have a 45 minute free initial consultation.

[01:26:41] Stephanie: Um, for people who are considering my coaching services, where we can go over any of their [01:26:45] questions and usually if there is a values difference that needs to be stated upfront in those conversations. It sounds more like this, it sounds more like parents telling me that they believe some people are trans, just not their kid.

[01:26:58] Stephanie: And that's, [01:27:00] that's a, a major, um, I, I think, uh, breakdown in worldview. That can happen for those families when, when they actually believed this stuff until it hit their family. And that's when I feel the need to articulate so that they have fully informed consent about submitting to my coaching [01:27:15] process that, well, as far, you know, I'm happy to meet you where you're at, but just so you know, I do not believe that, I do not believe this is a real thing.

[01:27:22] Stephanie: I do not believe that anyone is born in the wrong body. Uh, humans can't change sex. Uh, there are only two sexes and any [01:27:30] attempts, these are my foundational beliefs. Any attempts to, uh, mimic the appearance of the opposite sex only lead to harm. So I just, I state my values and that's kind of the main area of difference that I've encountered with families.

[01:27:43] Stephanie: And usually they end up saying, well, we [01:27:45] wanna work with you anyway, you know?

[01:27:46] Will: Yeah. I just, and just to clarify one thing, if, if someone decides not to work with you because you're a Christian, I'm not calling them evil.

[01:27:54] Stephanie: Yes, thank you.

[01:27:55] Will: It's really easy to misinterpret a lot of, a lot of these teachings and a lot of these [01:28:00] verses to have intentions that they, that they don't have.

[01:28:03] Will: But sort of like talking about larger conversation about the, a believer encountering phenomena in, in his or her life. Um, uh, but it, it, I don't mean to apply it to your [01:28:15] coaching process either.

[01:28:16] Stephanie: Yeah, no, absolutely. I just, I always want to, um, build bridges and bridge gaps where possible, um, you know, 'cause I think there, there are a lot of people who have been hurt, um, [01:28:30] by other religious people.

[01:28:33] Stephanie: Yeah. And, and I feel for them. 'cause I, I've been hurt. It just wasn't in that context.

[01:28:38] Will: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And, and that's a, and that's a tragedy by the way. Um, when Christians act, [01:28:45] hypocritically. Which is failing themselves to uphold the standards that they profess to those who are entrusted to their care.

[01:28:53] Will: That is a, it's a tragedy and God hates it. God, it's a, it's a, it's a grievous sin. It's a [01:29:00] classic example of holier than now. It's, and, and scripture is very, very clear about, there is no absolute human authority. No father is an absolute human authority. His authority [01:29:15] is under the lordship of Jesus Christ and his authority.

[01:29:18] Will: The constraints of his authority are outlined in God's word. And so any, any father or pastor or faith leader or whoever, you know, uh, small group leader, [01:29:30] man or woman who is claiming an absolute authority to do sinful things is. Wrong, and they're failing to communicate the whole council of God. And, and I remember, uh, a little bit ago we started recording because I, I [01:29:45] had mentioned that scripture has some beautiful things to say about women.

[01:29:48] Will: And, and I meant remember that you wanted to get that, wanted to talk about that. Um, and perhaps if not this conversation then later, but I, I do have this, um, I do have this passage bookmarked in, in my Bible with a [01:30:00] special flag. These, these other two represent where I am in the old and the New Testaments.

[01:30:04] Will: Um, and so, but uh, this one, uh, I have marked with a special flag as a, a new husband. I got married, uh, this summer. And so Ephesians, I also

[01:30:13] Stephanie: got married this, this summer. [01:30:15] Oh, congrat. Congratulations. When I was, I'm sorry. I just have to say, when I was listening to your story about like the timeline of 2020 for you, I, I was like, oh, there's so many parallels.

[01:30:25] Stephanie: Sorry, go ahead.

[01:30:26] Will: No, I, I, I, I think that that, um. [01:30:30] There's a wave that's happening that of, of people coming out of the new age, being delivered from it into Christian circles right now. It's quite a lot. It's a, it's a large thing. It's been going on. I think it's going to continue to build you, [01:30:45] me, Nick Mul and, and many others are, are part of that.

[01:30:48] Will: And so, uh, and so all of our stories are very similar and I believe God has a plan for why so many of us all at once. And I think there are many reasons for that. But I, I want to read, I [01:31:00] want to read Ephesians five because this is one of the ephe, Ephesians 5 22 through, um, through 33. This is one of the most misinterpreted and misused passages in scripture in multiple directions.

[01:31:14] Will: But it's really, really [01:31:15] important because it may speak into the heart of people who have suffered. Abuse by Christians. Um, maybe they've seen something happen between their mother and their father, or maybe they've experienced something from their father or their mother for that matter. [01:31:30] So I'll read this.

[01:31:30] Will: Ephesians 5 22, wives be subject to your own husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church. He himself being the savior of the body, but as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to [01:31:45] be, uh, to their husbands and everything subject to their husbands and everything.

[01:31:49] Will: Those three verses are quite challenging to our modern context and, and, uh, people can get quite worked up about them and we can talk about them because, you know, headship and, and submission is the proper [01:32:00] word, but headship is, uh, is a controversial subject in our post fini feminist age. But these verses taken out of context are extraordinarily dangerous because it's what follows after that is so [01:32:15] deeply important.

[01:32:16] Will: Talking about the responsibilities of a husband and a and of a father. So many abusive Christian, particularly men, will take these verses out of context and say, see, this is what it says right here. You know, close the book. [01:32:30] That's the end of the story. That is absolutely not the end of the story. And the verses that come later are so important.

[01:32:34] Will: So we'll keep reading from, um, verse 25. Husbands love your wives just as Christ also loved the church and gave himself up for her so that he might sanctify [01:32:45] her. Having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word that he might present to himself the church and all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she would be holy and blameless.

[01:32:55] Will: So husbands also ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. [01:33:00] He who loves his own wife, loves himself for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it just as Christ also does the church because we are members of his body. And so, uh, and then I'll just finish the passage.

[01:33:13] Will: For this reason, a man shall leave and [01:33:15] this is a citation from the Old Testament. For this reason, a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. This mystery is great, but I am speaking with reference to Christ in the church. Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to [01:33:30] love his own wife, even as himself.

[01:33:31] Will: And the wife must see to it that she respects her husband. So from verses 22 through 33, there are four verses that reference three and a half really, that reference the, the wife's responsibility to [01:33:45] the husband. The rest are all about the husband's responsibility to the wife. To be loving, to be self-sacrificial, to give himself for her and even die for her.

[01:33:54] Will: And that doesn't just mean bodily, but die in terms of die to himself on her behalf, to [01:34:00] overcome his own limitations, to work harder, to give more, to apologize more, to humble himself when necessary as Christ did. And so many people who have suffered, uh, religious abuse in Christian homes from abusive fathers, [01:34:15] these fathers don't know these verses that should not happen.

[01:34:19] Will: And that means that the father is asserting himself as an absolute authority, is not subject to Christ and, and God's word, and has sinned, grievously against his family. And I [01:34:30] think not enough people who have suffered spiritual abuse hear that they hear the first two verses, well, you're supposed to be subject to your husband.

[01:34:37] Will: That's that. But they don't hear what the husband's responsibility is in that. And this is why Christianity can, can. Brings so [01:34:45] much peace to people that have suffered so horribly in, in situations with, with family and marriage, is that the true counsel of God, the true picture of God's want for his paper people is so much [01:35:00] more beautiful and so much more loving and kind and generous and it's so balanced and true, but a lot of people get a distorted picture, the things proof text taken out of context, uh, uh, used to justify sin.

[01:35:14] Will: And that [01:35:15] is not how God's word is meant to be used. The true counsel of God brings peace and healing, uh, to so many, and, and so that's one of the many reasons why I love God's word, is that it has all the answers for men and for women, especially in relation to each [01:35:30] other. We just have to encounter it as it is not as other people tell us.

[01:35:34] Will: It's.

[01:35:36] Stephanie: Thank you Will. That was beautiful. And it reminds me of where before we started recording, I was, uh, talking about watching the chosen [01:35:45] and, um, the depiction of the disciples, which you explained you're not watching so that you don't form an image in your mind of who Jesus is, um, which I totally get.

[01:35:55] Stephanie: Um, but for me, uh, I was describing how it's helpful to [01:36:00] see how relatable and flawed the disciples are each in their own way. And, and thinking about the women in the Bible who were presented in the chosen as I've seen it, you know, the woman at the well, the woman with the 12 years of bleeding, Mary Magdalene, [01:36:15] um, these women, Martha, Mary, Martha, I'm trying to

[01:36:19] Will: think of that story.

[01:36:20] Will: Mary, Martha and Lazarus and John.

[01:36:22] Stephanie: Oh yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Um,

[01:36:25] Will: maybe they haven't gotten that there yet in the show.

[01:36:27] Stephanie: No, they've, they've shown lazarus's [01:36:30] sisters. 'cause I've gotten to the point where Lazarus has been resurrected. Okay. Yeah. Um, I didn't mean to interrupt,

[01:36:35] Will: I'm sorry.

[01:36:35] Stephanie: No, but I, I don't know as much about them though.

[01:36:38] Stephanie: Um, but these are, these are ways that women suffer, that are, that makes, you know, I guess my [01:36:45] take home is like, God knows the ways in which women suffer. You know, the, the suffering from, uh, the pain of when our reproductive systems betray us, the suffering from men, um, [01:37:00] the, the, the wounded sexual acting out of the, the woman at the well, and then the madness that Mary Magdalene suffered from the, um, you know, whether it's neurosis or psychosis.

[01:37:12] Stephanie: I don't, I don't know the nature of what Mary Magdalene [01:37:15] was going through. Um. Before she met Jesus. But these, these are female issues that the women we're all struggling with, and the way that, uh, Jesus' response to them is [01:37:30] depicted in the chosen. And I, you know, I look forward to reading these stories in the Bible, but it's, um, it, it's, it's very compassionate and, um, I know that, uh, for a lot of women that they're.

[01:37:43] Stephanie: Struggle [01:37:45] against Christianity is based on, I guess, what I would consider a flawed understanding. Um, but perhaps one that's been portrayed through, through abusive people in their life of, of its teachings on women. But I hope that, because I have a lot of feminists in this [01:38:00] audience. I mean, my, my audience ranges from like radical feminists on one side to conservative Christians on the other, and all the people, the various demographics have been brought together by the gender critical movement because we all have at least this one thing in common, that we know that men are not women, [01:38:15] you

[01:38:15] Speaker 3: know?

[01:38:15] Speaker 3: That's right.

[01:38:16] Stephanie: And so because of that, I, I get such a wide mixture of comments because people come together over this one issue and they have completely divergent views on other subjects. And I know there are, there are a lot of women in my audience who, um. Feel that they've been [01:38:30] harmed by what they label patriarchy.

[01:38:31] Stephanie: And to that, I can say I'm, I'm sorry for what you've been through. And I also know what it feels like to have deep woundedness at the hands of men misusing their power. But I don't think that we do ourselves any favors by [01:38:45] conflating that with God or his word, or his plan for our lives.

[01:38:48] Will: It's very difficult to not make that leap for many people.

[01:38:51] Will: And I think that that leap goes back to probably the 1960s and the 1950s and a little bit [01:39:00] before where civilization, particularly coming outta the first half of the 20th century, which was a horrible time in human history, it was painted as the product of masculine Christian patriarchy. And it failed devastatingly for everybody.

[01:39:14] Will: And so, [01:39:15] uh, so men, men are the problem and God is the problem. And Christianity is, is the problem. And, um. If anyone is tempted to believe those things, I can certainly understand and, uh, sympathize. I, I would recommend that you read the book, [01:39:30] the book that Made Your World by Dr. Vishal Manglwadi. And in that book, uh, he's an Indian, uh, as in from, uh, the, the Nation of India, um, philosopher in, in theologian.

[01:39:41] Will: And he talks about just how much of what we [01:39:45] understand of western liberty as compared and contrasted with the rest of the world, particularly the third world has come. Directly from scripture, directly from the spread of, of the Bible, not the spread of the church. That's a different thing. The Catholic church is a [01:40:00] different thing.

[01:40:00] Will: It's the Protestant Reformation versus Roman Catholicism. But the spread of the Bible itself, what it brought to people around the world. So in a context of thinking, you know, how, uh, quote unquote oppressive God is, the, the words of Christianity in the Bible are the [01:40:15] most liberating force in human history, and he documents it quite movingly in his book.

[01:40:18] Will: It's an excellent, excellent book. It's hard for us to understand living in America because we, all of us listening right now, we're born in a Western Christian context. That context has been [01:40:30] assumed in Europe for centuries and it's now just starting to go away. But in places like India. In other countries.

[01:40:36] Will: That is simply not the case. The Bible came to them long after it had been translated into English, and it was used to liberate so many people and, and create, [01:40:45] you know, true, true freedom in ways that we now genuinely take for granted. And believe me, I backpacked through India for six months on my own in 20 18, 20 19.

[01:40:54] Will: And I will tell you, our two countries are not the same. It's almost like they're two different [01:41:00] planets. And so there's a deep misunderstanding of the impact and the meaning and the power of scripture as a liberating force for everybody. And I, I tell that bit about Ephesians because I, I, I have found that, and now I've been [01:41:15] subject to unjust female authority.

[01:41:16] Will: That's a big part of my story and I would be happy to talk about it. But the, uh, one of the things that's so powerful. From scripture is that God says, no matter what this person [01:41:30] who did to you says, I hate that, that that was done to you. I hate that, that God hates, that. God hates the sin. He, he hate he, he hates it, and He's there.

[01:41:42] Will: He's there. In that moment, we might ask, [01:41:45] why did God allow it to happen to begin with, and the response, that's the problem of evil. This is a lot of people's objection to God. Why? Why does, why is there suffering? If God is good? The answer to that is, well, God takes suffering so seriously. He sent his son [01:42:00] down to suffer with us.

[01:42:02] Will: God sent Christ to suffer with us and to live a perfect life and to die of death. None of us could. So God is not separate from our suffering. He understands our suffering intimately and has suffered in ways that we can't [01:42:15] understand. May, may none of us ever understand what it is to be betrayed and crucified and beaten, you know, so that the flesh flew from our bones.

[01:42:23] Will: May none of us ever understand that God understands suffering intimately. He understands my suffering and your suffering, and [01:42:30] everyone's suffering because God himself has suffered unlike any other religion. In the world. God himself suffers with us, God, with us. That's the name of the, one of God's name.

[01:42:42] Will: Christ's name is Emmanuel. God with us, God [01:42:45] suffers with us. He is with us in our suffering. He does not abandon us to it. He does not tell us like Hinduism does, that suffering is illusionary or Buddhism, that we have to transcend notions of joy and suffering and, and escape this reality. No suffering is real.

[01:42:58] Will: Joy is real, and God has [01:43:00] experienced all of us with all, all of it with us. There is nothing else like that. World, and that is the power of the Christian message. Not that God is removed or remote from creation. He's some sort of blind theistic watchmaker. No, God loved the world so [01:43:15] much that he sent his only begotten son to be with us in am amongst the suffering, and that should bring us immense consolation.

[01:43:22] Will: Do you know that God himself knows what it is to be betrayed? God himself knows what it is to be abused. God himself knows what it is [01:43:30] to be murdered. He knows all of these things because he experienced them bodily with us. And that should bring us immense peace to know that we have not been abandoned to the problem of evil.

[01:43:39] Will: We are joined in it and that, and that no matter what's happened to you [01:43:45] or me, or anyone listening, God has experienced that bodily with us. He, he's not separate from us, he's not distant from us. He is not looking down from some lofty, lofty perch judging us with his law. And he came down to suffer with us so that we can [01:44:00] conform to him and be like him.

[01:44:01] Will: And that is the only message of hope that I've ever found. I have found no message of hope in therapy, no message of hope that you can truly, truly be transformed away from the things that cause you pain instead of just managing them. [01:44:15] Your whole nature, your whole character, your whole being, can be transformed to long for righteousness and depart from sin only by Christ's sacrifice.

[01:44:23] Will: And that's why one of the many reasons that I am the guy that I am is I was doing all the new age stuff for so long. [01:44:30] I did all the practices, name it through float tanks, breath work, ayahuasca, Buddhist meditation on a mountain, festivals, yoga. Na, I could show you a list of three. I did them all. It moved me this [01:44:45] much.

[01:44:45] Will: But in five years of becoming a Christian, my character has transformed so radically to really embody the peace that passes, understanding that I am the man that I am today, wholly because of God. All the wisdom that I had in myself was useless and got [01:45:00] me to a dead end, and God plucked me out of that and gave me a life, and gave me a wife and a daughter and one on the way and the opportunity to say these things.

[01:45:09] Will: Opportunity to say he enters into our lives and delivers us from it.

[01:45:12] Stephanie: That's really beautiful. Will, and I had to laugh when you [01:45:15] said float tanks because you know how I feel about float tanks, they're actually extremely therapeutic for my condition.

[01:45:20] Will: Sure, sure. And I,

[01:45:22] Stephanie: no, they're a big part of my healthcare regimen.

[01:45:24] Stephanie: That's

[01:45:24] Will: right. It's not a Yeah, you don't use it as a spiritual practice. It just was top. Well, it

[01:45:28] Stephanie: is. I mean, like, [01:45:30] it really, it helps with my condition and I do use it to, to pray and meditate. And I actually, before we started recording, I told, I told you how I was praying in a float tank, and I got, I got guidance in there.

[01:45:39] Stephanie: But, um, yeah, that's,

[01:45:40] Speaker 3: that's, but that's

[01:45:40] Stephanie: different from using it to try to achieve some sort of like transcendental state of mind when there's [01:45:45] nothing wrong with your body. That's right. Um, that's fair. But, um, I mean, that was all really beautiful. And on a lighter note, I, I know I, I read this to you or I told you about this before we start recording, but.

[01:45:56] Stephanie: You know, when you talk about how God suffers with [01:46:00] us and, and knows what our burdens are, um, I was telling you before we started recording that, uh, lately I've been praying and then getting answers rather quickly. And, um, one of the things that I [01:46:15] pray about most days is how to deal with difficult people and, um.

[01:46:20] Stephanie: And I was not expecting to read this in the Bible today. And I actually, I read it and I felt surprised and laughter and mirth, and it was, um, the, [01:46:30] the Proverbs 23, the message version translation reads, carrying a log across your shoulders while you're hefting a boulder with your arms is nothing compared to the burden of putting up with a fool.

[01:46:42] Stephanie: Um, and the, the NIV, [01:46:45] uh, is stone is heavy and sand a burden, but a fool's provocation is heavier than both and Right. So reading that, I just, I felt this like surprise and mirth. Like, here's God saying, no, I get it. Suffering fools is really terrible. [01:47:00] It's awful.

[01:47:00] Will: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It is. It is. It's, and I love the way that Proverbs speaks about the nature of righteousness struggling against foolishness.

[01:47:09] Will: And since you mentioned, uh, Proverbs 23, um, it's. [01:47:15] Alcoholism appears in scripture. And I remember when I read this like, you know, we think of alcoholism, quote unquote as this new thing. It's like, no, Proverbs 23, verse nine, verse 29, I'm sorry, through 35, talks about the [01:47:30] what we today call alcoholism. So you talk, you see, have, have we really grown that much as a society?

[01:47:36] Will: Not really, not, not really. We haven't really progressed much beyond when Proverbs was written, which I think would've been. Like 1400 BC [01:47:45] something, something like that. And so you, you encounter this wisdom and it's like, it's just right there. The wisdom for our lives has been written. It's in a book. It's here, it's literally here.

[01:47:54] Will: It's really like, not the sum total of like all of the world's wisdom in terms of like how to change a tire or something like [01:48:00] that. But everything that we need to lead a, a righteous and godly and sober life is contained within these pages. But the, the important part is that so many of us, when we encounter Christians.

[01:48:12] Will: Our lives prior to becoming Christian. They [01:48:15] only give us a part of this. Maybe they don't intentionally withhold it. Maybe they don't, maybe they don't know it themselves, but it's the incomplete picture of God and the incomplete Christ, uh, picture of Christ in this character that creates true harm. The full [01:48:30] picture of who God is and the full picture of Christ's character and story liberates us and makes us free from the heaviest burdens.

[01:48:37] Will: I really recommend the book, uh, Pilgrim's Progress, actually by John Bunion. That's another excellent one. The start of that book, you know, sort of depicts what [01:48:45] it was like to become a Christian. These things that we thought were irresolvable in our lives suddenly become, not become resolved. I'll, I'll give you an example.

[01:48:53] Will: You're a therapist, you'll appreciate this. Or you were a therapist and now you're a coach. Pardon my use of titles. You're some kind, you must be [01:49:00] some kind of therapist or something, right? So. I remember I was in transpersonal psychotherapy with a, with a male therapist in 2014 and 2015. And, uh, there was a lot of, uh, meditative vision work, a lot of breathing, a lot of [01:49:15] like, sort of allowing, uh, uh, active imagination.

[01:49:18] Will: That's it. And during one particularly deep session of active imagination, it was like I had traveled to the bottom of myself at a very, a very deep, very deep pool. And sitting there at the bottom of the [01:49:30] pool were like these giant concrete blocks. I found, and you know, the purpose of therapy, at least that I was doing it, was to release trauma, right?

[01:49:38] Will: So there's this trauma, traumatic memory, traumatic experience. Let's release this. But I encountered these things that were really heavy and significant [01:49:45] at the bottom of me that I felt that nothing could penetrate. They were heavy and they were just stuck there. I couldn't lift them, I can't crack through 'em.

[01:49:51] Will: They're just there. And I came to, came and I asked my therapist about them, well what about these like sort of concrete blocks he had? He understood what I was talking about. He's like, you know, I [01:50:00] think some things are just, are just with us forever. That was the answer that he had. He was good, man. He did, he, he worked hard.

[01:50:07] Will: He was, he was sincere, but he said, some things are just with us forever. So fast forward five, six years later, I'd become a Christian quite unexpectedly, [01:50:15] and I started experiencing sanctification in the Holy Spirit. And I can remember what it felt like to have those heavy blocks at the bottom of me. That visceral felt sense, you know?

[01:50:24] Will: And it was, if these blocks suddenly started to move. [01:50:30] Things that sat at the bottom of myself, suddenly had no weight at all, and they dissolved and they went away. And I didn't have to do anything. I wasn't doing some sort of meditative practice. I wasn't taking anything. I wasn't taking some class or some [01:50:45] course.

[01:50:45] Will: It was simply through scripture and prayer that I found these heavy burdens. The nature of which I don't actually know went away and they're not there anymore. Uh, what does that mean? I don't know what that means. I can't tell you what the blocks represented. I never found [01:51:00] out, but I was aware that sitting at the bottom of me, uh, bottom of me were giant immovable blocks of dead stone.

[01:51:07] Will: And since beca, and they were immovable no matter how hard I tried, because after that therapeutic session in 2014, I traveled after that and that's when I did all the [01:51:15] crazy new age stuff. Those blocks were still there. After I became a Christian and, and started experiencing real sanctification, those blocks went away and they're gone.

[01:51:24] Will: Now, does that mean anything in some sort of theological sense? No, I don't know. I [01:51:30] can't tell you, but I can tell you what it feels like is very different. And it required no effort, no giant bills, no transcendent practices. It was just God's gift to bring me peace. And that's the promise [01:51:45] to all believers.

[01:51:47] Will: I think

[01:51:50] Stephanie: I'm gonna resist the urge to comment on anything else you say. 'cause I notice every time you say something sparks so many different thoughts in my mind. And then I keep thinking where, where are we gonna wrap it up? I'm gonna just let it, let it be [01:52:00] there. That's a, such a beautiful, um, note to end on.

[01:52:02] Stephanie: Just that, that, that feeling of peace and relief.

[01:52:06] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Um,

[01:52:07] Stephanie: and earlier you described that the peace that surpasses understanding, so you're not describing this with any. Understanding of what [01:52:15] happened. Uh, nor nor is there a need to. There's just acceptance of God's grace. So, nailed it. Yeah. So beautiful.

[01:52:21] Stephanie: Thank you so much. Will, um, pleasure having you here. And I hope we get to talk about faith again sometime soon.

[01:52:27] Will: I would love that. I'd love to share. A bit about women from the [01:52:30] New Testament as well. Maybe that'll be the next, the next conversation

[01:52:33] Stephanie: we have. Sounds good. Thanks so much. Thank you for listening to you must be some kind of therapist.

[01:52:40] Stephanie: If you enjoyed this episode. Kindly take a moment to rate, review, [01:52:45] share, or comment on it using your platform of choice. And of course, please remember. Podcasts are not therapy and I'm not your therapist. Special thanks to Joey Rero for this awesome theme song, half Awake [01:53:00] and to Pods by Nick for production.

[01:53:03] Stephanie: For help navigating the impact of the gender craze on your family, be sure to check out my program for parents, our OGD Repair. Any resource you heard mentioned on [01:53:15] this show plus how to get in touch with me can all be found in the notes and links below rain or shine. I hope you'll step outside to breathe the air today in the words of Max Airman.

[01:53:28] Stephanie: With all its sham, [01:53:30] drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful [01:53:45] [01:54:00] world.