You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist

[00:00:00] Will Dobud: I used the Neurodivergence as a bit of a case study in the book because it [00:00:05] just stood out to me as we're actually missing the point of this topic [00:00:10] while simultaneously calling people typical, it's this othering. It felt like we were [00:00:15] getting stuck in a game of I'm this, your that. I talked about [00:00:20] doing this research project at an alternative school where every person I interviewed talked to me, they [00:00:25] had undiagnosed autism and they were gender non-conforming.

[00:00:28] And I thought, why is [00:00:30] this so important that they're meeting a stranger and telling me about their [00:00:35] labels? I didn't ask them these things in our culture. It really became how many of [00:00:40] these labels can I get? I saw this at my university. We see this, read a lot of workplaces. [00:00:45] How can we hire people based on we need this statistical check mark of people?

[00:00:49] And I'm [00:00:50] going, this is like not good for democracy. I don't think so. We see the label mania. [00:00:55] Going wild. I think it's an interesting thing when we look at the labeling. Does getting this [00:01:00] diagnosis actually lead to an improved outcome? And I'd say if we looked at more people are [00:01:05] diagnosed, more people are medicated than ever.

[00:01:07] More people see therapists and still everything [00:01:10] sucks. There's something not adding up here.

[00:01:13] SKOT: You must be some kind [00:01:15] of therapist.

[00:01:19] Stephanie Winn: Today I am [00:01:20] speaking with Dr. Will Doba. He's a social worker, researcher, and educator [00:01:25] who has worked with adolescents and families in the United States, Australia and Norway. [00:01:30] He's the author of three books, including most recently Kids these days. [00:01:35] Is that in the screen? I can't tell it. Kids these days.

[00:01:38] Understanding and [00:01:40] supporting Youth Mental Health will welcome to the podcast.

[00:01:43] Will Dobud: I'm really excited to chat with you [00:01:45] today.

[00:01:45] Stephanie Winn: It's great to have you. Uh, this book is really thorough and I [00:01:50] can just recommend it right off the bat to parents, educators, therapists, [00:01:55] anyone working with youth who wants a comprehensive overview of sort of the [00:02:00] nature of the beast of what we're dealing with, with the challenge of rating, raising, especially [00:02:05] adolescents, which is sort of my main population that I work with, although indirectly, so, [00:02:10] uh, you and your co-author, Nevin Harper, have done a really great job here.

[00:02:14] Will Dobud: Uh, [00:02:15] thank you. That means a lot. We, we certainly did cover a lot of, um, a lot of information, [00:02:20] but we wanted, our goal was really to leave parents and educators and therapists sort [00:02:25] of fired up that we've, we've been, uh, at in some cases really [00:02:30] missing the mark and that. Getting it right doesn't have to be so hard.

[00:02:33] Stephanie Winn: Okay. That's an [00:02:35] encouraging message. Um, maybe we can get, give a little sneak preview of where [00:02:40] hopefully we'll go later with the conversation, which is how do we get it right? What advice do you have for [00:02:45] parents and people working with youth?

[00:02:46] Will Dobud: The way I hear people talk about teenagers is that they're [00:02:50] annoying, they're frustrating, they're, uh, they push back at things.

[00:02:54] [00:02:55] And the, what that means is it makes us adults think, how do I combat [00:03:00] this? And we get into this power struggle with kids where really kind of setting up [00:03:05] an environment where young people can be curious, where they can be their best. [00:03:10] And I, what I mean by that is give them something to [00:03:15] participate in. And that sort of starts with giving kids something to imitate.

[00:03:18] So I think [00:03:20] really this notion of building a great connection with people [00:03:25] is way more impactful than trying to fix them. So that's where I think [00:03:30] the hopeful message of the book is. If you, if you kind of pay attention [00:03:35] to how you're thinking about young people, you can see how your thinking can get you [00:03:40] in, in trapped in a corner.

[00:03:41] You know, why won't my kid do their home, do their homework? [00:03:45] Well, whether or not your child does their homework is not your problem, that's your kid's problem, [00:03:50] and they're gonna have to deal with the consequence. So if we can avoid the power struggle [00:03:55] through a good relationship while maintaining our adult responsibilities of food on the [00:04:00] table con like consequences, you know, those sort of things.

[00:04:04] [00:04:05] It, it doesn't have to be so complicated. And that doesn't mean it's not hard, but I think [00:04:10] it's, um, we, we can kind of think our ways into, think ourselves into a trap [00:04:15] of trying to fix this other person where we also know that doesn't work in a, in a [00:04:20] marriage, you know, you can't fix your siblings or your parents.

[00:04:23] And so I think, [00:04:25] um. If we know, if we pay attention to what we wanna notice about our kids, like what do I [00:04:30] not want to change about my child? And then you'll, you'll come up with a lot of cool things.

[00:04:34] Stephanie Winn: That's a really [00:04:35] cool perspective, and it feels close to home. With the parent coaching that I [00:04:40] do, I often find myself saying to parents that there's such an important ramp up happening [00:04:45] between 13 and 18, and really by the time they're 13, you need to start thinking [00:04:50] of them as someone who is.

[00:04:51] On the way towards being on their own. And, and [00:04:55] so whatever they can take on themselves, they should. And, and there's that [00:05:00] mindset shift. I, I feel like, especially around 13, uh, if I, if I can coach [00:05:05] parents at that point in time, sometimes I see them years down the line when they really could have used that advice at the beginning of the [00:05:10] teenage years.

[00:05:10] But just like you said, right, like it's that allowing them to deal with [00:05:15] natural consequences and understand the choices that, that they have and what they will [00:05:20] live with through cause and effect, through learning their own way. That's such an important thing. And it starts with those [00:05:25] little things when they're young that parents wanna protect them from, and I talk about like [00:05:30] the laundry, for instance.

[00:05:31] If you ha hand off the laundry to them, that's their responsibility. [00:05:35] Now they are gonna forget and they, there will [00:05:40] be days that they don't have any clean underwear to wear to school. But letting [00:05:45] them experience that is a surefire way for them to understand the importance of doing their laundry.[00:05:50]

[00:05:50] Rescuing from, from the consequences isn't. So I, I love how [00:05:55] practical your thought process is here, and you also talk about building on their strengths. There was something I [00:06:00] highlighted where you had written about noticing what is going well and building [00:06:05] on their strengths. Can you talk more about that?

[00:06:06] Will Dobud: Yeah. So I know that you talk a lot about culture on, on [00:06:10] this podcast, and so like, one of the things is every headline these days, and, and I have [00:06:15] a, a lot of problems with, uh, Jonathan Hates book The Anxious Generation, but it's like [00:06:20] these, the kids today are dumber than ever before. The kids today are [00:06:25] more fragile than ever before the kids today, the mental health rates are out of [00:06:30] control and I sit there and I go.

[00:06:33] But what's the [00:06:35] solution to this? Is it, is it more, is it more mental health intervention? Is it like more [00:06:40] kids are medicated than ever before, so this is not solving the problem. And [00:06:45] so one of the things like building on the strengths is like teen pregnancy, [00:06:50] the lowest it's been in decades, the amount of kids that are smoking or, or [00:06:55] drinking.

[00:06:55] And I think there's, you know, kids aren't really exploring the world as much as they used to [00:07:00] either. There's problems both directions, but there's also really good things [00:07:05] that are happening too. And so when I think about, you know, [00:07:10] building off what works, it's kind of the, this notion [00:07:15] that. We can get into, and this is like the title of the book, we can [00:07:20] get into this trap of complaining about the kids that they're disrespectful.

[00:07:24] Like [00:07:25] everything our parents said about us. You know, we don't go outside, we're [00:07:30] lazy. We don't read books as much as everybody else. And then we just become old enough to say [00:07:35] the same thing about kids. And so we pa we play into this [00:07:40] role that there's this thing that's wrong with them. And then we start [00:07:45] intervening in ways like, like in Australia, where I am at the moment, banning social [00:07:50] media for everybody under 16, but leaving it with.

[00:07:54] [00:07:55] Middle-aged people who are the most likely to take their own lives, you know, [00:08:00] statistically speaking. And so it's always kind of like one of, one of the people I've been [00:08:05] lucky to meet in this process, Dr. Chris Ferguson. It's all the intervening seems [00:08:10] to always be about turning the screws on the kids, which is what, how he says it.

[00:08:14] [00:08:15] Like we, we, you know, 20 years ago everybody complained about violent video [00:08:20] games leading to crime and school shootings. And crime for the most part is [00:08:25] down. And video violent video games sell more than ever, and they're more violent than ever [00:08:30] before. So if you just pause for a second, the data will, [00:08:35] you know what seems like a moral panic now will usually [00:08:40] calm down.

[00:08:41] Later, but it is really hard when we're parenting and we don't want [00:08:45] our kids, as you were saying, to, to suffer, to feel distressed. Um, [00:08:50] um, and then the headlines scare the crap out of us. This is what happened with putting missing [00:08:55] children on milk cartons. You put one missing child on 10 million [00:09:00] bottles and it looked like 10 million children were missing.

[00:09:03] And the the truth is, [00:09:05] no stranger wants your child. For the most part. It's, they, it's not the way [00:09:10] it works. It's usually a family dispute, a family member, or in really horrific [00:09:15] trafficking situations, you know? But this, this, what happens is we often, [00:09:20] we live in sort of a fear-based society, and when we are, [00:09:25] we're scared of, um, our kids feeling some distress.

[00:09:29] [00:09:30] What ends up happening is we're going to intervene way too much. And so [00:09:35] instead, if you want to intervene, go for it. If you seek. Professional help, go for it. [00:09:40] But just know we as the, you know, the parents or the educator [00:09:45] also need to make sure that that mental health intervention is not [00:09:50] tinkering with what makes that child awesome.

[00:09:53] Because your child's gonna get out of a [00:09:55] hole by using what they already have. They're not gonna be, you know, they're not an empty [00:10:00] vessel as we wrote about, that needs to be filled up with this expert knowledge. If anything, [00:10:05] with concept creep of therapy, language, leaving the counseling room, [00:10:10] they already have all the knowledge.

[00:10:11] Chat. GPT can give you all the knowledge, but it's, [00:10:15] they need to use what, what makes them, um, awesome.

[00:10:17] Stephanie Winn: Well, you sound quite optimistic and I think [00:10:20] that's a good note to start on and it'll be a good note to end on. But you are also very realistic [00:10:25] about the problems kids are facing these days and, and, and the ones unique to [00:10:30] them, including.

[00:10:31] Well, not to say that environmental chemicals [00:10:35] just appeared yesterday, but you talk about the role of pollution, everything from heavy [00:10:40] metals to endocrine disrupting chemicals in the environment. And you're willing in this book to ask the hard [00:10:45] questions. I think we should all be asking like, to what extent do these [00:10:50] neurotoxins and uh, endocrine disruptors affect things like [00:10:55] widespread gender identity issues?

[00:10:57] You're, you're willing to go there. Um. [00:11:00] You also tackle questions of overprotection and [00:11:05] screens. Um, you said that you disagree with Jonathan Het on some of this, which is a, a bold stance [00:11:10] to take because he's so well respected and you know, and here you are coming on the [00:11:15] scene, um, sharing a, a different perspective on that.

[00:11:18] I, I think there's definitely some [00:11:20] overlap in your perspectives, but, um, one difference I noticed was [00:11:25] your, your chapter on screens, you explained what's particularly [00:11:30] addictive and destructive about the endless scroll, the liking, the algorithm and [00:11:35] things like that. But rather than advocating for bands, you advocate [00:11:40] for a, a more nuanced approach.

[00:11:42] And you explain, I think the terms you use are [00:11:45] digital interference versus digital integration. Can you explain that?

[00:11:48] Will Dobud: Yeah. So digital [00:11:50] interference. So we know that screens, like when our parents used to say, if you watch too much television, [00:11:55] it's gonna rott your brain. Well, there is some. Kind of truth to [00:12:00] that about, um, changes in the brains, alpha waves and all of this really [00:12:05] complicated neuroscience stuff.

[00:12:07] So in for that chapter, we spoke with Dr. [00:12:10] Mari s Swingle. She, um, actually lived an incredible life. She, uh, [00:12:15] graduated her bachelor's degree at, uh, 18 years old and said, uh, I'm gonna move [00:12:20] from Canada to France and become a model for a while. And then she came back and joined her [00:12:25] father's, uh, uh, psychotherapy clinic, and she was kind of on [00:12:30] the beat faster than anybody about technology.

[00:12:33] So over 10 years ago, [00:12:35] she wrote a book called I Minds like, like iPhone I Minds, [00:12:40] and she talked about how the infinite scroll that a, a lot of these [00:12:45] apps and, and the technology is intentionally designed to keep us hooked. They want us to stay there. [00:12:50] Now at the same time, she said there's, you know, if you watch a, a video [00:12:55] game developer, the way they play a game is very different than someone who's just playing [00:13:00] Candy Crush and mindlessly doing nothing.

[00:13:02] Like their brain is actually turning [00:13:05] on and, and becoming really active and using, um, you know, these parts of the [00:13:10] brain that are for critical thinking and, and solving problems. So [00:13:15] the issue with the banning in my perspective, and I also think [00:13:20] prohibitionist universal approaches just never work. Um, what it's, what it's [00:13:25] doing is sort of putting this blanket ban that no child is able to, you know, [00:13:30] uh, um, use this.

[00:13:32] So digital, there is a [00:13:35] digital interference that happens. No, no teacher wants their, their, their student on their [00:13:40] phone in the classroom. Nobody wants to have a conversation with a young person who just [00:13:45] has a, you know, a piece of metal in front of their face at the same time. I [00:13:50] think with good education, with good understanding of the [00:13:55] technologies, I think most young people actually make really healthy decisions if [00:14:00] we are involved in their life.

[00:14:01] And that can lead to a digital integration. I mean, in [00:14:05] Australia, like during COVID, and this is, I think this is like a, a key [00:14:10] aspect of the book that growing up when the rules change every [00:14:15] few years is really hard and confusing for a lot of young people. Um, [00:14:20] so in Australia, like we were the most locked down country in the world.

[00:14:23] During COVID, I could not [00:14:25] cross a state line. Um, I could not have more than 10 people at my house. It [00:14:30] changed everything. And my kids were in high school and they were at home all the time. And as someone who [00:14:35] ran my private practice out of, you know, an office in the garden, I [00:14:40] like. That was weird and challenging, but the narrative was, don't worry, you're digital [00:14:45] natives.

[00:14:45] You have to learn how to go to school online. All your friends are gonna be online. Don't worry about it. [00:14:50] Everything is online. You're gonna have your laptop. You can do the Zoom class, then write your essay on your [00:14:55] laptop. And it's only like three years removed from that. And it's ed [00:15:00] tech is the devil ban all kids off social media.

[00:15:02] They can't have techno. So it [00:15:05] always seems to me it's only the adults like what the adults want to have [00:15:10] happen. And, and I know that you can't give kids everything they'd want, they just eat candy all day. But [00:15:15] it seems like this ever moving goalpost. So I think what Mari [00:15:20] Swingle wrote was a really hopeful, uh, piece about there can be harms to this [00:15:25] technology.

[00:15:25] Absolutely. And at the same time, there can be a lot of [00:15:30] benefits from these techno, from this technology. Um, and so, I [00:15:35] mean, we're seeing it with AI now. Everyone's freaking out about ai. Um, but you know, I, I've been [00:15:40] writing about this on my substack, like, you know, like t math teachers were scared of the [00:15:45] calculator.

[00:15:45] Like this, the world changes. New York City banned pinball for [00:15:50] 30 years because they thought it was, looked like a slot machine acted like a [00:15:55] slot machine. So we can't have everyone become a gambling addict. People were actually scared [00:16:00] of the kaleidoscope in 1818. They thought people were walking into walls.

[00:16:04] They [00:16:05] were so distracted and no one would talk to each other anymore because of [00:16:10] light, color and mirrors. So like, we've done all of this before, [00:16:15] and so it's important I think, that we don't just live in right now, that we can learn from [00:16:20] history as well. Um, but at the same time, and I think you, you brought this up like with the [00:16:25] environmental toxins, how is it possible a country like, like Australia, where I am, and we could [00:16:30] talk about American context on this too, like a.

[00:16:33] Australia. They, [00:16:35] they wrote the, the federal government wrote the legislation to ban social media in nine [00:16:40] days. Like what federal government does anything in nine days? You know, I'm American. It [00:16:45] took, uh, seven years to get my children a green [00:16:50] card. Like, it's ridiculous, right? And, [00:16:55] but they, they still have, you know, the state of New South Wales still covered [00:17:00] up lead poisoning of indigenous youth from, from a mining company in [00:17:05] September of, of last year.

[00:17:06] So I'm sitting here going, why are we doing this thing when there's actually [00:17:10] a real known harm to children? Um, a, a a, [00:17:15] a known neurotoxin that we've banned from gasoline and paint. [00:17:20] But if it finds out that a mining company, um, the, the, the, their product is [00:17:25] leading to, um, you know. Higher rates of, uh, lead blood [00:17:30] concentration levels, which there's no safe level of lead in your blood.

[00:17:34] How come no one can [00:17:35] do anything about that? And so that's the part that didn't compute with Nevin. And I, when I, we, [00:17:40] especially with the, the, the phone things, I just think if all phones [00:17:45] disappeared, we'd all still talk about teenagers the same way and try to ban something else that would [00:17:50] make life easier with kids that I don't know.

[00:17:52] It's kind, it kind of doesn't add up to me.

[00:17:54] Stephanie Winn: I am [00:17:55] curious what you've noticed from your own experience that fuels your optimism that [00:18:00] most kids would self-regulate pretty well with these things. 'cause it, it's [00:18:05] my observation, they don't seem to self-regulate very well. I, [00:18:10] I often work with parents around, uh, establishing boundaries with screen time.[00:18:15]

[00:18:15] Common situation that gets a family into trouble is giving their kid a phone and what it would be, in my [00:18:20] opinion, too young, and then, uh, not setting the expectation from the beginning [00:18:25] that this is going to be something that we are in charge of. So the expectation is that [00:18:30] it's at the kid's discretion and that they will have [00:18:35] privacy and then the parent has to walk it back.

[00:18:39] They have to take away [00:18:40] privileges when they see that the kid isn't using those privileges. Whereas I think it's much [00:18:45] better from the beginning if, when you do give your kid a phone, it's clear that nothing that [00:18:50] happens on here is private. And, uh, that, uh, you, [00:18:55] you can't, you're not just going to have unlimited access to the whole internet and every app whenever you want.

[00:18:59] It's, it's [00:19:00] up to us to determine what level of access is appropriate. And partly we're going [00:19:05] to be looking to see how your mood and behavior are as cues as to whether this is good for [00:19:10] you or not. Just like you would if you, you know, if your daughter had a certain friend. [00:19:15] And every time she went to that friend's house, she came back in tears.

[00:19:19] There'd be a [00:19:20] point where you're like, I'm not sure that this friendship is working out for you. Um, [00:19:25] similarly, parents can see their kids' reactions to excessive screen [00:19:30] time or to certain types of screen time and see that that's not [00:19:35] beneficial for them. But then they end up, as you said, in a power struggle where what I observe [00:19:40] is sort of the ification of the kids, where the way that the parent talks to the kid is like, they're trying to [00:19:45] convince them this isn't good for you.

[00:19:47] And it's like, well, okay. You're gonna [00:19:50] encounter teenage resistance. So what's the boundary? You're not gonna get anywhere if you expect a kid to [00:19:55] understand or agree with your reasoning when you're coming in to tell them that something they want is off limits. [00:20:00] So what's your boundary versus a power struggle?

[00:20:03] I'm not sure how much you would agree or disagree [00:20:05] with my perspective on this. 'cause it seems like you've seen kids with a healthier relationship with technology than I have.

[00:20:09] Will Dobud: I [00:20:10] totally agree that this is, this is kind of about parenting. We didn't give our kids [00:20:15] phones until like 16. That totally agrees with Jonathan Height's perspective.

[00:20:19] Right? [00:20:20] And we kind of, we didn't really have a rule. It was just, this is our [00:20:25] household. You know, this is, this is what we are doing here. So [00:20:30] what, what kind of I think tends to happen is I, I totally agree with you that there's [00:20:35] not really any good education, but kids do things like, [00:20:40] like turn off, like turning off notifications.

[00:20:42] I think my phone is on more notification. This is [00:20:45] not something I've ever talked with my kids about. You know, and so there's things [00:20:50] that if we really educate and set up the boundaries from the start, and we could talk about [00:20:55] boundaries in parenting. 'cause boundaries seem like to a lot of us, they can feel [00:21:00] stale, frustrating.

[00:21:01] We have to enforce them. It means more work for the parent. [00:21:05] But the truth is, if your kid usually breaks a rule, like stays out [00:21:10] too late, they usually stay out. That's better than having no boundary. They still [00:21:15] come home like it's, that's safer. So boundaries are really important. I actually [00:21:20] totally agree with your perspective.

[00:21:21] I think the issue that I see [00:21:25] and with, with what Jonathan, what Jonathan Haight wrote, [00:21:30] um, is it feels like. The ban, like [00:21:35] federal government stepping in and banning something or states doing phone free schools, it feels like [00:21:40] this symbolic gesture that is like, don't worry, we've got your back adults, [00:21:45] we'll solve this problem.

[00:21:46] Where like the phone free school movement is an interesting one. Like what [00:21:50] classroom was like, this is a phone classroom. Like [00:21:55] everybody bring your phones in. Like there's no rule. That was like, no, no. [00:22:00] School was like, yes, it's really great for everybody to have their phones. So something changed [00:22:05] where teachers didn't feel they had the, the control of their classroom, the power over their [00:22:10] classroom to enforce, Hey, put that down.

[00:22:12] Or you're gonna have detention. You have to foc like, [00:22:15] I know, I'm like, I'm not like that high school teacher. I don't know what that's like, but [00:22:20] something changed where. It became really permissive to [00:22:25] allow all of these things where really what, what Nevin and I wanted. And as people, we, [00:22:30] we, we joke about this and like, we don't like shitting on people.

[00:22:32] Like, I don't like telling other people what to do. I don't [00:22:35] like being told what to do. At the same time, I want people to feel empowered [00:22:40] to do what they think is right and, and, and not feel like they're told what to do. [00:22:45] So I absolutely a hundred percent agree with you that if you're at the time [00:22:50] where you're thinking, I'm going to give my kid a phone and a smartphone and that [00:22:55] has access to all these apps and all this way too much information that [00:23:00] you do need to set your kid up for success.

[00:23:02] That's the digital integration. And, [00:23:05] and um, and I think that also starts with giving kids something to imitate. Like, I saw this [00:23:10] video the other day 'cause I've used this example before. If you're on an airplane and you [00:23:15] see the safety briefing, every person on the plane is on their phone. [00:23:20] Everybody and I watched this video of there was a plane incident and everybody had to evacuate the [00:23:25] plane and everybody brought their baggage off the plane, which is like rule [00:23:30] one of like, Hey, don't clog this up, you need to leave the plane.

[00:23:34] And there was a [00:23:35] fire and everybody was coming off with all of their luggage. And I'm going, what are we giving them to [00:23:40] imitate? So if we are on our phone all the time, it's kind of ironic to [00:23:45] call to say something that to the kid that doesn't add up. So I [00:23:50] think it, it starts with the adults.

[00:23:52] Stephanie Winn: The imitation piece is huge.

[00:23:54] I had a [00:23:55] family consulting me about a behavioral issue recently and they said it's so hard to get our kid to get ready for bed [00:24:00] in a timely manner because he's so distracted and [00:24:05] uh, he always wants to do whatever stepdad is doing. So, I [00:24:10] mean, this might sound obvious when I put it this way, but I said, so.

[00:24:13] Then shouldn't [00:24:15] stepdad be brushing his teeth when you need the boy to brush his teeth? [00:24:20] Uh, that, that would make sense, right? If the boy's gonna imitate the stepdad. But it's, it's, it's hard sometimes to [00:24:25] remember how impressionable these kids are and how much our [00:24:30] example means because then it's like, it, we, we feel guilty, right?

[00:24:34] [00:24:35] Like, I'm not always behaving in a way that I would want my kids to imitate. [00:24:40] I'm not always present in the moment. But you, you argue, um, about, [00:24:45] well, I'm not sure actually exactly what you would argue about phone free schools. I think you're right that, [00:24:50] that teachers have lost control of classrooms. And I, I did hear a lot of these [00:24:55] stories of just, everyone's on their phone in the classroom.

[00:24:57] The teacher can't control [00:25:00] anything. And even when it comes to the in-betweens, I [00:25:05] think those moments are really important. The moments in the hallway, recess, lunch, [00:25:10] um. It seems to me like in schools where they don't [00:25:15] have strict bands, that there's kind of this, [00:25:20] um, tragedy of the commons issue happening where, [00:25:25] you know, if let's say 50% or more of the students have phones [00:25:30] and they start to get them out on their break, then it, it feels like everyone should have their [00:25:35] phones out and it decreases the sort of forced pressure to just [00:25:40] socialize and be present with the kids around you.

[00:25:42] So now they're not socializing or they're only [00:25:45] socializing through their phones, showing each other things, not making eye contact. And that seems like [00:25:50] a real problem to me. So I can understand why schools would want to be [00:25:55] phone free, but it sounds like you wouldn't support that.

[00:25:57] Will Dobud: Well, I think as someone who has [00:26:00] worked outdoors with kids, like the, the biggest barrier, well, a [00:26:05] barrier to engaging in the outdoors is your phone.

[00:26:08] Like, it's annoying. [00:26:10] It's like, Hey, we're out in this beautiful natural area, like let's just watch this. [00:26:15] But I think that lands on me as the therapist to engage the [00:26:20] person in that process. So the phone is a challenge, but it also is a challenge [00:26:25] for me to be more present, to be more engaging, maybe have some more [00:26:30] charisma or something.

[00:26:31] And as someone who has worked in high schools, like, you know, the [00:26:35] most boring place in a high school is the teacher's lounge. Like, it's like soul [00:26:40] destroying to, to be there where everyone's on their phone not talking, they're exhausted, they're [00:26:45] overworked. There's too many kids in their classroom. And so the phone is almost [00:26:50] like a pacifier where really working with kids is like, we have to be [00:26:55] really present and energized and, and, and kind of, you know.[00:27:00]

[00:27:00] Discuss why learning Shakespeare is interesting. Like, like I found high school [00:27:05] soul destroying. If I had a phone, I would sit there the whole time on the [00:27:10] phone, but I was nothing. I was engaged in, I really didn't even learn how to be a student [00:27:15] until I started studying psychology and social work where I went, oh my gosh, this is actually interesting.

[00:27:19] [00:27:20] I like this stuff. Um, and you know, went on to do a PhD and [00:27:25] write stuff and I love writing and, but I didn't learn any of that from high school, like high, high. [00:27:30] So I think there's this kind of concept and it's almost like a, like a [00:27:35] nostalgia bias. That school was better when I went to school. Like if we use [00:27:40] this kind of phone, the phone free school lunch, and I'm a hundred percent and I'll get to where I'm a hundred percent [00:27:45] with you as well.

[00:27:46] Like, teachers would ban doodling in the classroom [00:27:50] if they could, or like that we talk to friends in past notes, like all of [00:27:55] these things. But what has happened in school? We've [00:28:00] simultaneously kind of killed recess. Like there's no risk on the playground [00:28:05] anymore. The playgrounds are safer than they've ever been.

[00:28:08] You know, Maryland, where, where [00:28:10] I'm from, the, the public school system in my county has banned baseball, [00:28:15] football, and, and, uh, one person on the monkey bars at a time. Um, all of these [00:28:20] rules, and I'm sitting there going. What adult went to college, got a teaching [00:28:25] degree, and then is like, you know, what I wanna do with the rest of my career?

[00:28:28] I wanna police, you know, [00:28:30] tag on the playground. So we've simultaneously kind of made [00:28:35] school as, and I'm talking, not talking about education, like the schooling system. [00:28:40] We've created this schooling system that really only works for [00:28:45] kids that fit in with the system. And so if you're someone who doesn't have a [00:28:50] good social network at, at school, what are you going to do in, [00:28:55] in, during recess or in between class times when you can zone out on your [00:29:00] device or, you know, you're, you're not gonna sit there and talk to [00:29:05] nobody.

[00:29:05] So this idea that if we just remove the phones, everything at school will be solved. [00:29:10] I don't know if that, I think there's a way bigger problem with school. [00:29:15] Um, and Peter Gray, uh, uh, I believe he's a psychologist from Harvard. He, [00:29:20] he writes about play and things like that, that you can actually have a way bigger correlation [00:29:25] to changes in school curriculum in 2010 to anything that's a [00:29:30] mental health crisis than the phones.

[00:29:32] And so there's this, I [00:29:35] just think, and never in my life did I think I'd be someone talking about phones or social media. [00:29:40] It actually doesn't interest me that much. It's mostly youth development that I'm really [00:29:45] fascinated about. But what I see happening is this. [00:29:50] Notion that once this thing is gone, school will be, pr will be excellent.

[00:29:54] Where the [00:29:55] truth is, school has kind of never been excellent. So if we look at youth [00:30:00] mental health, it's deteriorated. Youth anxiety has risen since the 1950s. [00:30:05] Um, I think the peak re the 1980s were suicide was as high in the [00:30:10] eighties as it is today. Um, so what was going on in the eighties? Well, family [00:30:15] systems, you know, divorce was more common, so we had more family separation.

[00:30:19] Um, you also have the [00:30:20] Cold War, so everyone's scared of getting, you know, bombed and, and it's terrifying. [00:30:25] And then 2010 you have this, again, another spike that seems to slowly be, [00:30:30] uh, going down since COVID. Um, but the part I agree with you [00:30:35] is I want kids playing and having fun. And I think most kids [00:30:40] in the right environment will choose that.

[00:30:42] And I'm speaking, this is my own. [00:30:45] Nostalgia. But when I've run expeditions, um, with young people, uh, this [00:30:50] is why I went to Norway. Um, most of my work in the outdoors, like sitting [00:30:55] around and having dinner together around a fire is like, it's a, it's such a [00:31:00] wonderful experience and no one's on their phone.

[00:31:02] And so if you're having an engaging [00:31:05] conversation, people will usually put their phone down. So again, it's what have we given young [00:31:10] people to participate in that they'd rather be on their phone. So that's sort of where [00:31:15] I think from the, how we can think about it as adults.

[00:31:18] Stephanie Winn: I'm trying to figure out [00:31:20] exactly where to draw the lines around what you're saying and where we agree and disagree because I, I don't want to [00:31:25] misinterpret your point.

[00:31:26] I, I think there's, there's a lens through which I can hear what you're saying, [00:31:30] where it's essentially. Okay. The adults [00:31:35] in a kid's life, including teachers, have to compete with this, you know, [00:31:40] endless dopamine machine over here to just be more interesting. Right? If they're [00:31:45] drawn to all the, the endless stimuli, it's because you're not interesting [00:31:50] enough.

[00:31:50] You need to be more interesting and, and there's, there's a degree to which well, we'll never be able to compete, [00:31:55] uh, because it's, it's a completely different type of experience. [00:32:00] Um, I don't, I certainly wouldn't take the stance [00:32:05] that, uh, phones are the only thing wrong with schools. I agree with you that I [00:32:10] think a lot of how public education is run is total garbage.

[00:32:14] [00:32:15] It's not experience based. It doesn't prepare kids for the real world. [00:32:20] Um, if anything, it gives. An inflated sense of their [00:32:25] capabilities to the students who are the most academic and then they're in for a harsh reality [00:32:30] when those aren't the skills that are really needed in the real world. And, um, I, I [00:32:35] mean there's, we could do a massive overhaul, so I wanna make sure I'm not, [00:32:40] I'm not misunderstanding you to say that, uh, that we [00:32:45] just need to compete with the phones for kids' attention and be more interesting.

[00:32:48] Will Dobud: Yeah. I think this just gets [00:32:50] back to boundaries. This is where I really agree with you. Like I, I remember when I used to, [00:32:55] like, for instance, I worked in Alaska for a while and we were taking young people on expeditions as an alternative [00:33:00] for them going to jail. And, um, these were really, [00:33:05] you know, rural kids from rural remote communities.

[00:33:08] And I'd always [00:33:10] say, listen, I'm gonna stub my toe. I'm gonna say [00:33:15] shit when that happens, or a worse word. And so I don't care about [00:33:20] swearing, but what's gonna happen is swearing will eventually get out of control while [00:33:25] we're all together because we're just gonna start using it. And what happens is if like [00:33:30] swearing is fine, but sometimes if you swear too much, you sound like an idiot.

[00:33:33] So can we just see what [00:33:35] happens? And in a few days, if swearing gets outta hand, can we all work on that together? And everybody [00:33:40] goes, sure. Where if I said, no swearing, I've got [00:33:45] no buy-in. No, there's no, are we all agreeing to this? Even though [00:33:50] I want people to speak politely to each other? And then I would say, but I am gonna [00:33:55] say no, no, like racism stuff.

[00:33:57] Like I don't want to hear that stuff. And they go, okay. [00:34:00] And then eventually something happens, someone they get angry with each other, they [00:34:05] call each other names, and then you go, Hey, can we go back to what we talked about here? So I think it's [00:34:10] kind of. You can do any banning that you want. I'd like any school to do [00:34:15] whatever they want.

[00:34:15] I mean, I'm good friends with people. They run a nature school, um, in New South Wales, [00:34:20] Australia. It's amazing. There's no phones there. It's probably a rule I like. It doesn't, I don't lose sleep about it, but [00:34:25] I like the boundary to be important to the context [00:34:30] of why it's there. And so when I see, and I think this [00:34:35] is kind of the most important thing I took away from writing this book, that when I hear [00:34:40] the way the language is like we have to protect the kids.

[00:34:43] Like here, here, when I [00:34:45] first read The Anxious Generation, an Anxious Generation, Jonathan Hets book, the thing that [00:34:50] stood out to me is he proposes four norms. And the norms are something like, you know, [00:34:55] no social media till you're 16, no smartphone till you're 16, and uh, [00:35:00] you know, no phone at all till you're 12.

[00:35:02] Something like that. And then. [00:35:05] Unstructured play, no adult interference. So the four norms are like [00:35:10] one adult interference, two adult interference, three adult interference, four, [00:35:15] no adult interference. And I just thought this is like a really odd way to [00:35:20] conceptualize what you're proposing here. And not to mention the research and, [00:35:25] and you know, we don't have to get into that.

[00:35:27] But the, the thing I think where I [00:35:30] really agree with you is I want the school to be making a informed, like [00:35:35] when the, like when Montgomery County Public Schools say no baseball on the playground, [00:35:40] I'm sitting there going, why? And it's just about what if [00:35:45] somebody gets hurt, someone got hurt playing baseball last year.

[00:35:48] Well someone's gonna get hurt [00:35:50] on some other playground equipment, then we'll make playgrounds even more boring than they've [00:35:55] ever been. You know? So I, I think if a school wants to go down the phone [00:36:00] free school thing, and I think, sure, go for it. I think. [00:36:05] Also think about how is it that we're talking to kids?

[00:36:09] I put out a [00:36:10] video just the other week that, um, it was a mainstream news, [00:36:15] uh, thing in Australia, and it's a digital de detox bootcamp run by [00:36:20] army veterans here in Australia. And so parents are sending their kids and they're, you know, [00:36:25] basically going through this nine day pseudo bootcamp and it's all about technology, right?[00:36:30]

[00:36:30] And that's the focus. And the, the person on the news said, you know, these [00:36:35] kids arrive and they're, they're, they're a shell of a person. And I just went, how are you [00:36:40] going to treat a child that you believe is a shell of a person? Like right off the [00:36:45] bat, you're starting at, I have to fix you and I have to fill up this empty shell [00:36:50] with what I think is important.

[00:36:52] And so I think creating the environment [00:36:55] and if that, if that involves the boundary of. Phone free schools, go for it. [00:37:00] But don't I, I think it's just a cautionary tale of if we do this because we think [00:37:05] there's something wrong with kids, it it, it won't lead us to the utopia that we [00:37:10] think it will.

[00:37:10] Stephanie Winn: It's hard for parents or busy adults around a [00:37:15] kid to put themselves in a kid's shoes, but sometimes it [00:37:20] makes all the difference.

[00:37:21] If you can just take a few moments to. [00:37:25] Mentally put yourself where they are. I saw a really beautiful example of [00:37:30] this recently. So my husband and I were out for a walk and there was a [00:37:35] grandfather with his maybe 2-year-old granddaughter outside. [00:37:40] And at one point they were just parked in the middle of the sidewalk [00:37:45] while the little girl who at that point, she'd been pushing around a, a, a baby [00:37:50] stroller, a little kid-sized baby stroller full of her stuffed animals.

[00:37:53] And, and they were stopped and [00:37:55] her stroller was parked and she was chasing leaves down the [00:38:00] sidewalk. They were blowing in the wind and she was filled with delight. And [00:38:05] as we passed him, he basically, he, he greeted us and he narrated [00:38:10] her experience to us. He said, we're noticing the effects of wind. [00:38:15] Or something like that.

[00:38:16] And I was like, great theory of mind, grandpa. That's exactly [00:38:20] what's happening. She's two years old. Wind is a total novelty. The fact that this leave [00:38:25] leaf is moving because of this invisible force is so exciting to her right now, [00:38:30] and you're doing a great job of putting yourself in her shoes. You're patient, you're totally present, like she's [00:38:35] having the time of her life.

[00:38:36] And you can do that with a 2-year-old. They're gonna be fascinated by [00:38:40] something observable in the, in the material world. And you can do that with a child of, of [00:38:45] any age. It gets a little bit more complicated as they get older, but this is where a lot of [00:38:50] power struggles, I think come from. I notice in parent coaching is that the parent [00:38:55] forgets to figure out where is my child's attention [00:39:00] before they go and ask that kid to put their attention somewhere else?[00:39:05]

[00:39:05] And, and you can end up in these oppositional. Dynamics. [00:39:10] And so sometimes the solution is really as simple as just noticing [00:39:15] or coming alongside them or Hey, what are you doing? But not in an [00:39:20] accusatory way, not like, uh, are you supposed to be doing that? But [00:39:25] literally what are you working on? Um, and uh, and that can help especially [00:39:30] with the kids with who have difficulty transitioning too.

[00:39:32] Um, because sometimes they're [00:39:35] oppositional, you know, they're not obeying your instructions in the very moment. Well, did you think [00:39:40] about where their mind was at? Especially considering kids are so overscheduled, they [00:39:45] have so many transitions in rapid succession, then meanwhile you have all of [00:39:50] these kids who are somewhat autistic diagnosed or not.

[00:39:53] And we can actually, I think we should talk [00:39:55] about that next 'cause you have some really great things to say about that in the book. Um, but kids who, who [00:40:00] may already struggle with transitions and need longer stretches of [00:40:05] time for their attention to just naturally go. Wherever they want it to go. And, and they're [00:40:10] already not getting enough of that.

[00:40:11] Will Dobud: Well, we were finishing writing the book. Um, [00:40:15] I started down a, a really deep rabbit hole [00:40:20] about, um, not only American philosophy, but the, the founding of our [00:40:25] professions of social work, of psychology, um, and as an outdoor person, and I did [00:40:30] my, my, my doctoral research was a bit about this, but about kind of [00:40:35] experiential learning.

[00:40:36] And I started noticing that in some cases we [00:40:40] get this idea sort of, I don't wanna say wrong about [00:40:45] experiential learning, but it's, it's kind of become synonymous with activity. Like what [00:40:50] activity are you doing? What experiential activity? But experiential [00:40:55] was really like this, you know. John Dewey's the most well regarded person [00:41:00] on this topic, but John Dewey was a, a mentee of William James, like [00:41:05] famous Harvard psychologist, you know, uh, oversaw the first psychology PhD [00:41:10] in America.

[00:41:11] Um, had the first psychology experiential lab, um, [00:41:15] at Harvard in, in, in the world. Like, he, he was remarkable. And he, his [00:41:20] ideas were things like stream of consciousness, like this is a William [00:41:25] James idea that your, your consciousness is gonna change based on what you're experiencing in the [00:41:30] world. So if you read a book, and let's say the book is brilliant, but you [00:41:35] say, that book is boring.

[00:41:36] There's something to learn about this. Like, what is this about [00:41:40] me that I'm in? I'm experiencing this as boring, but someone else might experience [00:41:45] this as really riveting. My wife loves reading fiction. I only [00:41:50] read nonfiction. Like what is different about us that we can learn about who we are? [00:41:55] So I love this idea of chasing the [00:42:00] leaves and, and someone saying, this is the wind.

[00:42:03] Because now if the child is [00:42:05] experiencing wind, where a lot of schooling today is very passive, [00:42:10] which this is the part that. Is very interesting to, to me as, as a [00:42:15] therapist, like the, the, the manualizing of therapies like [00:42:20] William James and Jane Adams and John Dewey, like the, the gurus of the early [00:42:25] 19 hundreds, psychology, social work and education.

[00:42:28] They would hate this idea, like [00:42:30] Dewey wrote about a crowded curriculum. There's too many things to learn and kids aren't [00:42:35] getting the chance to experience things and they should be solving problems together and [00:42:40] an open source kind of learning. Um, and so teachers all [00:42:45] learn this stuff. Therapists, we all learn, it's all the relationship, it's hope and [00:42:50] expectancy, and it's a sense of, you know, a shared interest in the problems that we're [00:42:55] solving or what we're the work we're doing together.

[00:42:57] But then still everything we had, [00:43:00] everything we do is dictated by the insurance company. It's dictated by people who aren't [00:43:05] therapists who are telling us what to do. So there's this kind of, and I think this is the undertone of the [00:43:10] whole book, like. If we sit, if we [00:43:15] kind of sit around and we, this is where we can get into like, I think is a good segue into autism as [00:43:20] well.

[00:43:20] Like if we sit around and wait for like, [00:43:25] you know, like they just announced that, and this is early 2026, [00:43:30] it was just announced there's gonna be a new DSM and it's gonna be way better than the last DSM. [00:43:35] But everyone who's writing this new DSM all have financial interests with the [00:43:40] pharmaceutical companies.

[00:43:40] And so it's like, why? Why are we even caring about what? Like, and I [00:43:45] know we all have to make money and that's the world we live in. It's kind of this irony that what we're [00:43:50] trained to do and then the system we're forced to work in seemed like two totally different [00:43:55] worlds. So with school, I think if we really revisited everything you just [00:44:00] said, which is can they have more time together instead of.

[00:44:04] A bell [00:44:05] rings. You sit down and rows in a seat, in a, in a classroom. The bell rings. You stand up, you [00:44:10] walk next door, sit down, bell rings, stand up, go to the next where it's very, it's like [00:44:15] kind of antithetical to everything we know about childhood. And let me say something, [00:44:20] going back to the early 19 hundreds, most children in the early [00:44:25] 19 hundreds worked in factories, right?

[00:44:27] And so most kids did not go to high [00:44:30] school. And if you really want to think about high school being important, like George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, none of these people [00:44:35] went to high school. I think Thomas Jefferson owned his plant, owned his [00:44:40] plantation from 12 years old. I think he was the manager of the, like, there was a different way we [00:44:45] viewed kids back in the day.

[00:44:46] Not that owning a plantation is cool. I'm not advocating for that. [00:44:50] What has changed is it was everyone needs to go to school. [00:44:55] This will be really important, and I'm not anti this idea. Jane [00:45:00] Adams, when she won, she was the first American woman to win the Nobel Peace Prize. And she was [00:45:05] also, um, when she died in the thirties, she was the most famous woman in America that we hardly talk [00:45:10] about anymore.

[00:45:10] She, she created my, my profession of social work. Um, [00:45:15] you know, along with other people, of course, but one of the things she did [00:45:20] was she fought tirelessly to get kids out of factories. And it [00:45:25] wasn't because of an ethical issue. It was this is not good for the growing body [00:45:30] to do nothing to be this. She wrote a book in 1909 called The Spirit of [00:45:35] Youth, where she went through, uh, in Chicago, many of the kids [00:45:40] that wound up in the juvenile courts, and she's like, all of them are stuck in factories [00:45:45] all day.

[00:45:45] What would you do on the weekend? You, you'd go to the train tracks and hop [00:45:50] on a train and go on an adventure. You know, so if we're crushing the spirit of [00:45:55] youth, it's no wonder that they're pushing back. So I found it interesting and then like [00:46:00] reading Eric Erickson and the developmental stages, Eric Erickson has a great [00:46:05] quote, I think it's in 1960, where he says, you know, we learned how to, [00:46:10] how to stop stunting the growing body by getting the manufac factories.

[00:46:13] Now we have [00:46:15] to stop like stunting the spirit of youth because of our own adult [00:46:20] anxiety. And so we see this a lot where it's trying to fit kids into this [00:46:25] box. And so I think that like there's stuff to look at historically as [00:46:30] to why, how these really radical thinkers created, [00:46:35] how they saw things, and then how we still put up with the system staying exactly [00:46:40] that, that the status quo is okay.

[00:46:41] I mean. I work at a university, I'll tell you, [00:46:45] trying to get anything going, like they say, will, you've written about outdoor therapy? [00:46:50] Create an elective. Do you know how long that process is? I have to get that approved by like nine [00:46:55] different subcommittees. I was like that. That sounds like a huge pain in the ass.

[00:46:59] [00:47:00] Like they want you to make a change, but secretly they don't want any change to happen. [00:47:05] And so, 'cause that's hard. It's hard to change things, but I think many people, if they revisit [00:47:10] not only their own youth and how they thought about themselves as a teenager, [00:47:15] but also if someone got into therapy, got into being an educator, why you [00:47:20] got into it.

[00:47:21] I think that can keep you motivated to keep kind of bucking against [00:47:25] the system that's been put in place.

[00:47:27] Stephanie Winn: Your trans identified kid won't listen to [00:47:30] reason, because reason isn't what they need right now. They need a parent who [00:47:35] knows how to communicate in an empathic yet strategic manner. [00:47:40] ROGD repair gives you over 120 lessons in the psychology and [00:47:45] communication tools that actually work when normal parenting doesn't.

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[00:48:07] Stephanie Winn: All right, let's talk about autism. We [00:48:10] flagged that. I appreciate the way that you address this because early in the book [00:48:15] you acknowledge that we have a lot more environmental toxins that could [00:48:20] have something to do with rising rates of, well [00:48:25] mental conditions that are downstream of things like heavy metal exposure, [00:48:30] phthalates.

[00:48:30] Things like that. Um, so you look at the rising rates of [00:48:35] autism, what they might have to do with things like that. Um, but you also talk [00:48:40] about how the term neurodivergence gets misused and the [00:48:45] issue of secondary gain, identity, politics and youth over identifying with their mental [00:48:50] illness.

[00:48:50] Will Dobud: Neurodiversity is a really interesting one.

[00:48:53] Um, and actually one of [00:48:55] my, one of my colleagues, a a feminist scholar, um, uh, sent, sent [00:49:00] me this article about it, and it was a few years ago, and I just went, oh my gosh, I, I can't [00:49:05] believe like mainstream, we're getting this so backwards. So like the, the [00:49:10] historical perspective was, um, there's an honors thesis, uh, from the [00:49:15] mid nineties written by Judy Singer, um, an Australian sociologist who [00:49:20] wrote that.

[00:49:21] This concept of neurodiversity is a, is a place, it's [00:49:25] a setting. Like your brain is different to my brain. We're having a conversation and that's, [00:49:30] that's neurodiversity. So it was actually this kind of movement to [00:49:35] move beyond labeling. And, and so it was really inspired by, um, a [00:49:40] lot of, um, uh, feminism and, and gay rights activism that [00:49:45] how can we move beyond having to just be put in this box, um, if, [00:49:50] if I happen to have, have autism.

[00:49:52] And so the, the concept [00:49:55] was really, um, neurodiversity being that your, [00:50:00] your brain and your neurological makeup is as unique as your fingerprint. So [00:50:05] everybody has this unique neurological makeup, so that way we can think of [00:50:10] a classroom or a workplace that's open to everybody. You know, like, [00:50:15] and, and speaking from like, like disability activism, like every elevator [00:50:20] has braille on it.

[00:50:21] Like how many people can read braille? Like I would [00:50:25] guess less than way less than 1% of, of, you know. But you [00:50:30] do that so that any person can ride the elevator. So it brings [00:50:35] everybody in no matter what. And you don't really have to get into it. You can just go, yeah, you're [00:50:40] come ride this elevator. So what happened with [00:50:45] neurodiversity is it turned into this movement [00:50:50] of are you neurodivergent or are you neurotypical?[00:50:55]

[00:50:55] And it turned into kind of a, a power move one way or the [00:51:00] other. And, and so this rise of. I'm [00:51:05] neurodivergent, meaning I'm more kind of neurodiverse than you are. [00:51:10] And so I think maybe this naturally happens with things. Humans, we love classifying and [00:51:15] categorizing things, but if you wind up all 8 billion people in the world, you'd never find the [00:51:20] line where divergence starts.

[00:51:22] You know, same way if you lined up people by [00:51:25] color, lightest to darkest, you wouldn't find where black starts. You know? [00:51:30] It's a odd sort of way to go about things this, this [00:51:35] endless need to classify things. What we saw, and we've seen this over the last [00:51:40] 10 years, was, and, and I think this is one of the things, social media being [00:51:45] like WebMD for mental health, like this played a big part in this where [00:51:50] you had fidget spinners and then you had toys [00:51:55] designed for your.

[00:51:57] Divergence, if you will, like [00:52:00] actually marketed towards something. So the, the, the way that we [00:52:05] went about this, which I thought was kind of challenging and maybe risks [00:52:10] being a little too academic and nerdy in some parts was [00:52:15] if you asked me why has rates of autism gone from [00:52:20] one in a thousand, one in 10,000 to like one in 38, depending [00:52:25] on who you ask, something like that, I would say, well, the DSM three came out and they [00:52:30] opened it up for everybody and so everyone can fit into this sort of [00:52:35] thing.

[00:52:35] And then what happened [00:52:40] as well is if you ask a toxins researcher to. [00:52:45] What's going on? They're going, well. They're, we're, we're all, got all these chemicals in us that are all [00:52:50] linked to social, social, behavioral concerns, attention related issues, [00:52:55] um, especially if you look at the levels of these things in, in utero.[00:53:00]

[00:53:00] Um, and so it was all for them. It's, [00:53:05] no, duh, this is all linked, but it's really challenging in, in, in [00:53:10] today's, today's political, social, cultural climate has changed a bit. But [00:53:15] I pull this video of, uh, of the president talking about, you know, [00:53:20] Tylenol and autism and immediately everyone's like, this is crazy.

[00:53:24] It's just [00:53:25] because the DSM opened it for everyone. That's why they're, well, that's also not [00:53:30] cool that everybody gets labeled all the time. That also doesn't really sound like, oh, [00:53:35] that's a great. What does it say about the diagnostics criteria? If you can just [00:53:40] open it up and then everybody can get it. So the other thing, and we didn't write about this in the [00:53:45] book and I wish we did in Australia, in, in like the 2010s, they [00:53:50] introduced new funding for people that were diagnosed with, with auto.

[00:53:54] And so what we saw [00:53:55] is this spike of diagnosing people, 'cause all the workers got more money. Like that also [00:54:00] changed things. So there's all different ways we can kind of look at it from, [00:54:05] from different angles, but. What I, I used the, the [00:54:10] neurodivergence as a bit of a case study in the book because it just stood out [00:54:15] to me as we're actually missing the point of this topic while [00:54:20] simultaneously calling people typical, which is like not cool as [00:54:25] well.

[00:54:25] Like it's, it's, and it's this othering that we, that we kind of had a [00:54:30] problem with that everybody, it, it felt like we were getting stuck in a game [00:54:35] of I'm this, you are that. Um, and before we hit record, I talked about [00:54:40] doing this research project at an alternative school where every person I interviewed talked to me, [00:54:45] they had undiagnosed autism and, um, they were gender non-conforming.[00:54:50]

[00:54:50] And I thought, what, to myself, I thought, why is this so important [00:54:55] that they're meeting a stranger and telling me about their labels? Like, I, I didn't [00:55:00] ask them these things. It just, and so it became sort of in, [00:55:05] in our culture. It really became this sort of, how many of [00:55:10] these labels can I get? And then I saw this at my university, we see this [00:55:15] read, read a lot of workplaces.

[00:55:16] How can we hire people based on we need this, you [00:55:20] know, statistical check mark of people. And I'm going, this is kind of not how, this is like [00:55:25] not good for democracy, I don't think. So that sort of was our view of [00:55:30] this. So we see the label mania, um, going wild and we, [00:55:35] we shared a study that. As children, as, as I think there's a study of a [00:55:40] few hundred kids in California and they, they gave them a, a mental health [00:55:45] symptomology checklist and asked them, do you self-identify as having a, a mental [00:55:50] disorder?

[00:55:50] And those that said yes, two years later when they did the, you know, the post, [00:55:55] uh, uh, the, the survey at the end of the study, two years later, those who dropped the [00:56:00] label had the biggest increase in self-esteem. So we're kind of throwing away, [00:56:05] throwing around these labels that might actually not be helping with like protective [00:56:10] factors.

[00:56:10] And not to say like self-esteem is everything that hype kind of came and went too, but [00:56:15] it's, I think it's an interesting thing when we look at the labeling, like, does [00:56:20] getting this diagnosis. Actually lead to an improved outcome. And I'd [00:56:25] say if we looked at, you know, more people are diagnosed, more people are medicated than ever, more [00:56:30] people see therapists and still everything sucks.

[00:56:33] There's something not adding [00:56:35] up here.

[00:56:35] Stephanie Winn: And then you mix in identity politics, the victimhood [00:56:40] narratives, the secondary gain. You give this example of a girl who has [00:56:45] labeled herself as having borderline personality disorder and that [00:56:50] you showed her the list of traits and said, you know, I don't think you meet these traits.

[00:56:54] And [00:56:55] she was saying, oh, but my, I have a social media presence based around [00:57:00] this, uh, label. And that gets so dangerous. In this case, you were [00:57:05] describing a teenager and you went on to explain that, you know, there's a lot of [00:57:10] disagreement in our field about whether teenagers should be given personality disorder [00:57:15] diagnoses at all.

[00:57:16] I, I personally believe that. Traits of [00:57:20] potential emerging personality disorders should be noted as traits in a [00:57:25] patient's chart so that that can be monitored. And you know, the pattern can be recognized over time, but it's [00:57:30] really dangerous to give someone that label so early on when there are so many [00:57:35] people who would meet criteria for borderline personality disorder at 16 because they're [00:57:40] 16 and, and they can still grow out of it, right?

[00:57:43] But what happens if they get caught up in the [00:57:45] system with that label? And what happens if they overly internalize that label? When is the label [00:57:50] helpful for them to recognize, oh, that's my borderline, as you would with something like [00:57:55] narrative therapy, which you speak of highly, where externalizing the problem, oh, that's my borderline, that's [00:58:00] not me.

[00:58:00] So I have an independent sense of self and that's my disorder. Acting up like that can be helpful, but [00:58:05] just as much there is the, uh, getting sympathy, building an identity on this [00:58:10] thing. And uh, and, and then when it comes to something like [00:58:15] autism. I, I just throw my hands up in the air because I have so many people [00:58:20] coming to me saying that their kid is autistic or was considered for an autism [00:58:25] diagnosis, or that they've, you know, they've gotten them evaluated or they haven't.

[00:58:28] But I [00:58:30] really don't know whether we're looking at the more extreme end of the spectrum, [00:58:35] where, for example, um, a, a high [00:58:40] schooler has to be repeatedly instructed not to touch their private parts in public. [00:58:45] That's a pretty severe form of autism there, and that's, you know, that's going to [00:58:50] warrant a different approach than a kid who's socially awkward.[00:58:55]

[00:58:55] And how much does that have to do with isolation during the pandemic and spending a lot of time online? And the shortage [00:59:00] of experience, which you also write about? Let me flag that. Um. [00:59:05] And so much of what I think benefits the kids who are right on that cusp [00:59:10] of like, maybe they qualify, maybe they don't for that, uh, [00:59:15] autism spectrum diagnosis is it seems to me like they need more co-regulation.

[00:59:19] They need [00:59:20] more quality time, more mirroring, more, um, of [00:59:25] that narration of their inner experience. Oh, we're watching leaves and how they move in the wind. [00:59:30] It's like, it seems like the things that benefit any youth or any therapy [00:59:35] patient, they just need more of those things to help scaffold their [00:59:40] brain and social development in the right direction.

[00:59:42] That's, that's my personal opinion on what they need. [00:59:45] What do you think?

[00:59:45] Will Dobud: Yeah, I would agree with that. I think not, not that we have to go back to talking about [00:59:50] phones or social media, but I think like, I guess this is just a lot of me being kind of [00:59:55] an overthinker of things. I think, okay, you've got this diagnosis now what?[01:00:00]

[01:00:00] And the truth is now what you have to do exact the exact things that you just said. [01:00:05] So what are we gonna do different? Like how is this, this diagnosis going to help us? How can [01:00:10] we move beyond just a word? And you're absolutely right, we need that co-regulation [01:00:15] and the, the, you know, saying the inside part out loud that we can [01:00:20] make meaning and, and reflect on our experience and be in relationship with other [01:00:25] people.

[01:00:25] So I think where, what we saw with the, and the reason we [01:00:30] lumped this into identity politics is it's as if everybody that's a red [01:00:35] person thinks exactly the same. And everyone who's a blue person thinks exactly the same. Where [01:00:40] it's like, this doesn't, this is, this is, as adults, we have to embrace that this is [01:00:45] messy and complicated.

[01:00:46] And if we're going to, you know, if we're gonna say [01:00:50] autism spectrum disorder, that there's this like, like as you were saying, there's like nonverbal [01:00:55] and um, and that, and that and the teenage years can become quite violent. You know, like [01:01:00] you have an, an extreme thing that we're, we're kind of. What, what I saw, especially [01:01:05] in Australia when all this funding came for working with providing social supports and [01:01:10] therapy for young people, like the amount of, and now they're scaling it back 'cause they spent too much [01:01:15] money and it's like, but it's, things come and go in waves [01:01:20] and so in like, like cultural waves.

[01:01:23] And so what, [01:01:25] what I saw was, and we, we wrote about this later in the book and, [01:01:30] and I think this is sort of, I think this captures my thinking on like the rise of [01:01:35] students requiring accommodations in the classroom, especially at universities. [01:01:40] It's, I would not want my classroom and, and I know that [01:01:45] talking about this can immediately be like, oh, what an asshole.

[01:01:48] But I, I don't, I have [01:01:50] nothing here nor there. Like, if a student has accommodation I'll do it. But there's also like, [01:01:55] is this an opportunity where you can learn the subject material you have to learn and. [01:02:00] Learn about yourself and the way that you learn and the way, 'cause I know when I [01:02:05] was diagnosed with A DHD, again, this is a term that does, well, my [01:02:10] wife probably thinks about it more than I do, but like, 'cause I'm annoying to live with, but I know that [01:02:15] I can get hyperfocused.

[01:02:16] Like how, how have I written books like that all happens at one in the [01:02:20] morning, you know, that doesn't happen at 9:00 AM wake up. I should probably write this book right now. [01:02:25] That's just me getting my inside ideas out on paper, you know? [01:02:30] Um, and so I also have a job with a lot of flexibility. So I'm in the [01:02:35] right environment where I'm kind of left alone to do my own thing.

[01:02:38] I work with a great team of [01:02:40] people. Um, I get to write research projects on whatever I want to, and I learn, [01:02:45] uh, learn about new things whenever what, like, whatever. I've got this kind of. Freedom that [01:02:50] high school didn't give me. So the, the, the, let's say if someone did a [01:02:55] brain scan of Will's brand, maybe they'd go, oh my gosh, how a DHD is this person, Edward [01:03:00] Hallowell actually said to me, I got diagnosed by him in Massachusetts, and he said to me, [01:03:05] um, I can't believe you got out of eighth grade.

[01:03:08] I was like, I know. School [01:03:10] sucks, man. This is brutal. You know? But, um, what I see [01:03:15] with the labeling is it's, it should, if, if we really believe that this meant one in [01:03:20] 38 people have autism, wouldn't we have a serious revisiting of [01:03:25] schooling? Like a serious, like what is the most important thing? 'cause it's, it's [01:03:30] gonna be socializing and being together and, and, and learning about [01:03:35] ourselves.

[01:03:35] That's the, the, and going back to my nerding out about experiential, the reason it's [01:03:40] experiential is it's the reflecting on experience. That's how you learn from experience. You don't [01:03:45] just learn by not thinking about what you're doing. So you learn from really thinking [01:03:50] about what happened. Now what, so what, what does any of this mean?

[01:03:54] [01:03:55] And we kind of are, are using these labels to say, now I understand you, but I can't [01:04:00] change anything that I'm doing now. It's all on you. To change.

[01:04:04] Stephanie Winn: I [01:04:05] was nodding and smiling as you were talking about your relationship with your A [01:04:10] DHD. 'cause I also got diagnosed with A DHD in my thirties, you know, by [01:04:15] the time I already had a master's degree in a counseling practice and all these people coming to me, I think I have a [01:04:20] DHD, and they would tell me about it.

[01:04:21] I'm like, well, I guess we all do, or at least I do. And then I [01:04:25] eventually was like, okay, I'll take a label. And, you know, I went through the little honeymoon phase with the [01:04:30] stimulants and it's amazing for five minutes when your brain can [01:04:35] hold seven things in your working memory at once instead of two. Um, that's, that's a nice feeling for [01:04:40] me.

[01:04:40] The heart, heart palpitations and insomnia aren't worth it. Um, and, and so my lifestyle [01:04:45] is very similar to yours. I have a life that works for. The [01:04:50] mind that I have and, you know, I can get things done in bursts. I can [01:04:55] hyperfocus, I can pull something off in a few days that might take someone else [01:05:00] months.

[01:05:00] But if I don't finish it all at once, it's gone forever. Like I, I've [01:05:05] lost my hyperfocus. Sorry. That idea did not make it to fruition. And, and this [01:05:10] is why I'm afraid to let go sometimes when I'm working on a project. 'cause I'm like, if I drop this [01:05:15] project, it's just gonna dis I can't pick it up six months later.

[01:05:19] So I [01:05:20] completely relate to what you're saying, but at the same time, had I gotten [01:05:25] labeled sooner, uh, or, or let's say someone with a [01:05:30] similar temperament and personality to myself. Um, [01:05:35] similar neuro type, you know, to myself, existed in today's environment. [01:05:40] W would I, would they be able to make it to this level of success?

[01:05:42] Would they be able to build that life? Because, [01:05:45] you know, I think the current culture is a lot of using it for the excuse making, right? [01:05:50] What you said is, what do we do with the diagnosis? What does that mean? We need to do with our [01:05:55] lives to, uh, you know, make up for our deficits, for example? And [01:06:00] that's a much different mentality than the secondary game mentality.

[01:06:04] [01:06:05] Let me hide behind this diagnosis. Let me use it as an excuse to fail in the [01:06:10] areas where I struggle. And what I wonder is, who is going to sit down [01:06:15] with these young people and look them in the eyes and say to them, honestly, let's have a [01:06:20] conversation about what you're afraid of. Because this might feel cute and pretty [01:06:25] for now, you know, the safety blanket that you're hiding under of, well, I have this [01:06:30] disorder, so I can't do that, so don't expect it of me.

[01:06:32] And if you expect it of me, you're cruel. [01:06:35] Right? Uh, that might feel comforting for a while, but you will end up [01:06:40] seriously, uh, inhibited and [01:06:45] behind in life in ways that are gonna be really unpleasant to live with the consequences of. So [01:06:50] can we maybe help you face your fears, shame, inadequacy, you know, fear of growing up, fear of [01:06:55] responsibility.

[01:06:55] Can we help you face those one by one so that this label doesn't become an obstacle?

[01:06:59] Will Dobud: I could not [01:07:00] agree more. And that's where we have to sit down with young people, especially when these [01:07:05] terms are. Thrown around and they're thrown around in, in this medicalized [01:07:10] like fashion where there's like, there's no biopsy for these things.

[01:07:13] So, uh, you [01:07:15] know, that's like sort of the, I remember doing the A DHD test and I was like, this is so [01:07:20] boring. I was like pushing a button when a light turns on or something. I was like, what am I doing here? [01:07:25] Like, and so there's no biopsy for these things. So these are sort of, [01:07:30] they're ideas of what's going on with your, your [01:07:35] neurotype, as you said.

[01:07:36] And I think I, and people like this is, this is [01:07:40] kind of funny 'cause I'll talk about this with students and you've experienced me for over an hour now. And I, I [01:07:45] say, listen, if I get off topic, just raise your hand and say, will I don't follow. And [01:07:50] then students will come up to me and they're like, you're my A DHD superhero.

[01:07:53] And I go, no. That's kind of [01:07:55] like a trigger warning. That's not me saying I'm, I'm telling you. This is what I'll [01:08:00] do because I know myself and I know how I'll, how I'll act and [01:08:05] what will happen and I'll be impulsive. And I like what you said about not finishing a project on [01:08:10] Friday. Um, there, there was an argument on social media about wilderness [01:08:15] therapy stuff, which I have researched about.

[01:08:17] And, uh, someone came at me about wilderness [01:08:20] therapy and definitions and, uh, my wife was at work, I was working at home and she said, come to work [01:08:25] with me and, and do some work in my office. I was like, sure. I went there and I wrote 3000 [01:08:30] words in like three hours of a peer review paper. It's still open behind our thing.

[01:08:34] Haven't [01:08:35] touched it. Like, I was like, that's boring, you know? I was like, so my, my list [01:08:40] of unfinished projects is very long as well. But I think when you, [01:08:45] if you are, let's go back to like autism and you're, and socially, you know, [01:08:50] that you have some quirks that might make socializing difficult. I [01:08:55] think the, the gift is to really lean into that.

[01:08:58] Then really [01:09:00] lean into how does this make you, I mean, so special and [01:09:05] awesome, like how does this make you amazing? Like, and I think [01:09:10] instead of observe, like, like we talked about this, like the oppression Olympics, instead of [01:09:15] just bringing in more identifiers about, and I [01:09:20] think it worked in, in, in, in the, the power way, like you said, it gets you out of [01:09:25] things, you know, I think, and Nevin wrote about.

[01:09:27] And I think [01:09:30] for those to under, like, I think looking at things internationally is really interesting that [01:09:35] in North America, this is a far bigger phenomenon than, than say in Australia or other [01:09:40] countries where I've been lucky to go. But like Nevin, um, [01:09:45] teaches in a, he taught in the child and youth care, um, department.

[01:09:48] He's in the faculty of health now. My, [01:09:50] this is my co-author and he also teaches education, um, every now and then. [01:09:55] And he had students with, um. Accommodation plans for [01:10:00] no public speaking and no group projects. And he started saying to [01:10:05] the students, how are you going to prepare yourself to run a classroom if [01:10:10] you've never practiced public speaking?

[01:10:13] And so I, I'm not a [01:10:15] very nervous public speaker, but I grew up playing music. So I'm used to being on a stage, but [01:10:20] everybody should be nervous about public speaking. It's scary, you know, [01:10:25] I'll watch this when this episode comes out and think, gosh, I should have said that more clearly. You [01:10:30] know, like that's how, that's how that works.

[01:10:32] So I think being an adult that's present [01:10:35] with, okay, now what, what are we going to do with this? [01:10:40] And so then learning things like my, my wife knows that sometimes I'll come to bed at one in the morning 'cause [01:10:45] I've been working on a project and she knows that I will sit in bed and be annoying, [01:10:50] fidgeting if I don't write that project out.

[01:10:52] So knowing yourself is, is [01:10:55] really important. Um. She also knows, like if we're on a holiday, on [01:11:00] vacation, summer, she works in travel. So we're really lucky we get to travel a lot. Like I do need [01:11:05] a few hours to work every day, otherwise I'll never be present, you [01:11:10] know, and it's like, if you know those things, we can be in a relationship where [01:11:15] like she, she stinks at working from home.

[01:11:17] So I know when she comes home, I better put my work [01:11:20] down and hang out with my wife and then I can go back to work later. Like having these knowing [01:11:25] yourself is really important. Um, if we're, if we're gonna understand ourselves through [01:11:30] these, you know, these labels and, and terms. Well,

[01:11:33] Stephanie Winn: I think, uh, your wife and [01:11:35] my husband might have a lot in common.

[01:11:38] I like, I'm the same way. I [01:11:40] mean, we could be on vacation, the first week of vacation is relaxing, but then the work impulse [01:11:45] comes back. Yeah. And I'm like, I, I have to go write this down. I got the creative inspiration. Yeah. [01:11:50] We also had a moment, um, I needed his help with something that was glitching on my computer the other day.[01:11:55]

[01:11:56] And I pulled him in and of course his solution is you need to shut everything down and [01:12:00] turn it. And he said he wanted me to close out all these programs. Oh my gosh. And I'm just about how to meltdown. Yes. Because I'm like, [01:12:05] if I close all these windows, I'm never gonna remember the five projects I was working on.[01:12:10]

[01:12:10] Will Dobud: Yes, exactly.

[01:12:11] Stephanie Winn: Uh, but you talk about people using their anxiety or their whatever [01:12:15] diagnosis as an excuse to get out of things. And you and I, as mental health professionals know, and I think you get, [01:12:20] you did a good job of articulating this in the book, how incredibly counterproductive that is, because [01:12:25] these are the things that build your sense of identity.

[01:12:27] And, and, and it's just reinforcing [01:12:30] that sense. I am someone who doesn't have the strength to do X, Y, or Z. [01:12:35] Right. And, and how are you ever going to build genuine confidence if [01:12:40] you're constantly avoiding things and then it feeds back into the cycle of anxiety?

[01:12:43] Will Dobud: Yeah. And it leads to as [01:12:45] well, um. And this is also in my, in my head [01:12:50] at the moment about, um, this, this, this will really kill you.

[01:12:52] I was gonna do a keynote at this conference about this [01:12:55] very topic, and then the conference got canceled. So now I have this whole presentation in my head [01:13:00] that I can't deliver on. So you're gonna get a chunk of it here now. So you should do

[01:13:03] Stephanie Winn: it

[01:13:04] Will Dobud: on

[01:13:04] Stephanie Winn: YouTube. [01:13:05]

[01:13:05] Will Dobud: Yeah. I, I thought about doing that. Yeah. But one of the things like I've been thinking about is it also [01:13:10] leads to, this is gonna sound like a leap, so bear with me and, and challenge me about [01:13:15] this as well, please.

[01:13:17] It leads to this sort of [01:13:20] institutionalizing of our thinking. And what I mean by that is [01:13:25] I, I'll go to the university support and we're, I'm just talking about the [01:13:30] university context, but I think it's the same in high school. I'm gonna go and get this [01:13:35] written down that I get 15 extra minutes per hour on an exam or something.

[01:13:39] [01:13:40] Cool. We put it out there and then there's this inherent [01:13:45] assumption that I can't do the exam unless I have this, so then I'm back at the [01:13:50] support services who are all wonderful people doing their job, of course. And then [01:13:55] it creates this cycle of being caught up instead of just [01:14:00] thinking for yourself about things.

[01:14:03] And so it, it doesn't lead to this [01:14:05] sort of intellectual freedom to do your own work, do your [01:14:10] own thing, know who you are so that you can know. [01:14:15] When someone's pulling the rug out from under you. And so instead of this [01:14:20] teacher is making fun of accommodations, what an asshole. I'm sitting there going, no, [01:14:25] I, I do want you to be your best self.

[01:14:26] And if you need extra 15 minutes, you can just ask me. I, [01:14:30] I'll give it to you. What do I care? You know, but what it's wrapped up in the [01:14:35] label and the mental health terminology, and then it gets wrapped up in the system [01:14:40] on your medical charts on these, you're kind of, you're, [01:14:45] you can start to be doing yourself a disservice.

[01:14:48] And I see this a lot, especially being [01:14:50] a social work educator, which is mostly a, you know, you know. Women [01:14:55] dominated profession and women in, you know, coming back to university [01:15:00] usually in their thirties or forties. It's usually a later career change. And when you are talking [01:15:05] about your experience, there was many who said, I had the euphoria.

[01:15:07] When I finally realized I have a [01:15:10] DHD and this is how my brain works. And I'm going, great. Now you get to know yourself [01:15:15] as a learner and that gives you the freedom. To know how to work [01:15:20] the way to construct your workplace, the way to take care of yourself if you're on vacation, [01:15:25] the way to be in relationship with other people, and that is the real freedom [01:15:30] of this.

[01:15:30] We're just the institutionalized. I get 15 more minutes. That's not [01:15:35] really going to help you that much.

[01:15:37] Stephanie Winn: Are you a therapist in need of continuing [01:15:40] education that's not over the top woke? Check out my colleague Lisa Mustard's pod courses. [01:15:45] All of her pod courses are approved by the National Board for Certified Counselors.

[01:15:49] [01:15:50] Right now, Lisa is offering my listeners an incredible deal. Get all 27 POD [01:15:55] courses. For only $44 that could meet almost all of your continuing education [01:16:00] needs for the year. Visit lisa mustard.com/pod [01:16:05] courses and use code some therapist to take $5 off of her $49 [01:16:10] pod course bundle. Again, use code some [01:16:15] therapist@lisamustard.com slash pod courses.

[01:16:16] I'll include that link and coupon in the show notes for your convenience. [01:16:20] Alright, now back to the show.

[01:16:22] Will Dobud: The leap I was gonna make about this, about being a psychotherapist [01:16:25] is I was trained in solution focused. Loved it. It hit me at 20 years old, like, oh my [01:16:30] gosh, why doesn't everybody do this? And then I started going to solution focused conferences and [01:16:35] I saw the whole, you're not as solution focused as you're supposed to be.

[01:16:38] And I was like, okay, [01:16:40] see y'all later. I'm done with this club. Like, I still like the ideas, but I was like, I don't need to [01:16:45] be in that inner circle anymore. Like they, they're bullies about the, what term [01:16:50] did you ask the miracle question the right way. You're, you're being, you're being you. Why are you even [01:16:55] talking about the diagnoses?

[01:16:56] Like all like, I was like, oh, this is like a bullying club, you know? [01:17:00] And then like, wilderness therapy, same thing. I was like, Hey, we should probably not kill kids. [01:17:05] They were like, uh, will, you should stop talking about this. I'm like, ah, okay. See y'all later. I'm out. You know [01:17:10] that getting out of that is the real freedom to be able to do whatever you want.[01:17:15]

[01:17:15] So I think that sometimes there's this. Notion that the, that [01:17:20] this label is going to lead to something. And I think at first we see [01:17:25] the euphoria of, oh my gosh, I get it. And I think just like you and I were, was talking about [01:17:30] now what, how, how, if I learn, how I learn, how can I do [01:17:35] more learning in the style of learning that I want to do, which I think is actually [01:17:40] really individualistic.

[01:17:41] And, and knowing who you are so you can bring your [01:17:45] best self to a neurodiverse space

[01:17:48] Stephanie Winn: in your, in your section on [01:17:50] borderline personality disorder, you said that even Marsha Linehan, [01:17:55] who invented dialectical behavioral therapy for the treatment of borderline personality disorder, one of the [01:18:00] most respected names in the field of treating BPD, even she said.

[01:18:04] [01:18:05] She does not advise patients to tell their medical professionals that they have BPD because [01:18:10] she knows that they will be discriminated against and that, you know, their health concerns might not be [01:18:15] taken seriously. And, and that is an example of [01:18:20] being alert and thinking for yourself about what is in your best [01:18:25] interest, regardless of what your hindrances might be.

[01:18:27] Or maybe especially bearing in mind what your personal [01:18:30] limitations might be. You know, it reminds me of did you see this clip that went viral this week of the [01:18:35] guy, uh, talking about norm's, psychos and schizos?

[01:18:39] Will Dobud: [01:18:40] No, I didn't see that. That's funny.

[01:18:43] Stephanie Winn: It, I loved it. And [01:18:45] then I saw, I started seeing a lot of posts.

[01:18:46] Of course, this is how sensitive the algorithm is. I don't know, like, [01:18:50] maybe people were always talking about this, but because I liked and shared the video, now I'm seeing all the [01:18:55] tweets about it. But, you know, but there's a discourse that has been sparked about, [01:19:00] here's this premise, right? But. That psychos benefit [01:19:05] from the naivete of normies who don't know how to spot psychos because normies are [01:19:10] normies and they project their normal, empathetic way of thinking [01:19:15] onto other people.

[01:19:15] Don't recognize the predatory, exploitative nature of [01:19:20] psychos. Psychos are running the world controlling the normies, and you know who gets a bad rap? [01:19:25] Schizos. Schizos is a natural predator. Of psychos because they're just [01:19:30] crazy enough to know what the psychos are up to, but they're not here to hurt the [01:19:35] normies.

[01:19:35] They're here to protect the normies. So he basically, in a very colorful manner, makes this case. And now I'm seeing [01:19:40] all these people saying, yeah, let's, let's look out for our schizos. And, and I [01:19:45] thought, you know, I think I have just enough schizo in me to appreciate what he is saying, because I [01:19:50] can get a little, like, I have that little bit of conspiracy theorist edge to me.

[01:19:54] In fact, one [01:19:55] of my favorite negative reviews in my podcast, like, if you're gonna leave a negative review, at least make it [01:20:00] entertaining. Right? So this one, uh, the, the title of the review was, you must be some kind of [01:20:05] conspiracy theorist. I was like, okay, well at least be clever. Um, but [01:20:10] you know, one thing about the schizotypal mentality that he's referring [01:20:15] to is that skepticism of the, the fact that there are.

[01:20:19] People out [01:20:20] there to exploit your weaknesses. And that's the real irony of [01:20:25] all these young people who are so, um, they're making themselves so [01:20:30] vulnerable with these labels totally in a number of ways. One is their fragile mentality that they [01:20:35] themselves do not believe that they can take the test in the, in an hour.

[01:20:38] Uh, they, they don't [01:20:40] believe that they can rise to the occasion. They believe they need all these accommodations. [01:20:45] Um, but it's also that they're bearing themselves to the world saying, I have no [01:20:50] self-esteem. I like, I think I need all this sympathy. And then just making it so [01:20:55] easy for the predatory psychos of the world to present themselves [01:21:00] and their agendas as the solution when really, um, they're, they're just [01:21:05] there to capitalize off of their weaknesses.

[01:21:07] So I think from a somewhat paranoid [01:21:10] schizoid position, yeah, we can actually make a case for, [01:21:15] you know, even the young people with borderline personality disorder as Marshall Lenahan herself said, [01:21:20] like maybe not putting that on full display, maybe guarding your heart a little bit more. [01:21:25]

[01:21:25] Will Dobud: A hundred percent.

[01:21:26] Th that's so well said, and I could not agree more. And it [01:21:30] reminded me of, um, I chopped this from the introduction, but I, I might write a substack about this [01:21:35] experience when I was doing my. My Bachelor of social work degree, I was working at [01:21:40] all of these wilderness therapy programs 'cause I just loved the outdoors, I loved the therapy stuff.

[01:21:44] I was just [01:21:45] learning. I was, I would go anywhere, I'd even volunteer. And my serious girlfriend at the time, that [01:21:50] relationship died because of work. 'cause I was like, I need to go outside and be camping and stuff. [01:21:55] And when I had to do my internship, my first internship was at a, um, [01:22:00] a clinic for adults with severe and persistent mental illness.

[01:22:03] Now I had no desire to work with adults [01:22:05] or severe and persistent mental illness. I was adolescent in the outdoors the whole time. [01:22:10] And I got to this place, it was a, it was in a, like a strip mall next to a thrift shop in a seven [01:22:15] 11 out in Gaithersburg, Maryland. And, um. I [01:22:20] got there, I had to pick up, I would, I'd get there, get this 18 seater van drive to [01:22:25] the supportive living facility, which was about 10 minutes down the road.

[01:22:28] Pick up all of these adults with [01:22:30] schizophrenia, antisocial person, you know, everything under the sun. And [01:22:35] then we'd come back and then we'd do day programs together. It was kind of like babysitting adults. We do [01:22:40] group therapy about your medications, like group, you know, psycho. I

[01:22:43] Stephanie Winn: had the same job.

[01:22:44] Will Dobud: [01:22:45] Okay. Yeah,

[01:22:46] Stephanie Winn: we had the same life.

[01:22:47] Will Dobud: Yeah. That's so cool. I, I loved it. [01:22:50] I thought I would hate it. There was an exercise program that, um, when I [01:22:55] got there and the exercise program was, uh, we had to do, do exercise like three times a week, but it would, the [01:23:00] person before me just took them to the mall, like to a Westfield shopping mall. And they all just sat in the [01:23:05] food crowd.

[01:23:05] I was like, we're gonna go to the Potomac River and walk, like, we're going to [01:23:10] go walk along the tow path along the canal. And they were like, is this risky? I was like. No [01:23:15] donkeys walked the towpath to build Washington DC We will be. Okay. So we're [01:23:20] finding turtles and doing all of these fun things. It was a blast.

[01:23:23] And one day, one of [01:23:25] my, one of the clients did, didn't show up. He was one who came on his own, didn't get in the van with [01:23:30] me. He didn't show up. And the boss comes in and she goes, oh, that person, he's taking [01:23:35] part in a clinical trial. And I said, okay. And I looked through his file. This was like [01:23:40] his 20th clinical trial, right?

[01:23:43] And then I looked at who, [01:23:45] how did he get involved in this clinical, like what was, he was here yesterday, like what changed [01:23:50] from yesterday to today? And I looked in it, and the, the [01:23:55] service that we were providing, we were billing state, you know, state funding every day. So our notes to [01:24:00] get, to get our funding, and I'm obviously a free worker from the university.

[01:24:04] [01:24:05] We were owned by a pharmaceutical company who also owned the f, [01:24:10] the supported living facility. So I started looking at everyone's file and [01:24:15] everyone had been in multiple clinical trials, so there was no actual agenda for us to help [01:24:20] people. So where were we? We're in Montgomery County, Maryland, where NIH is.

[01:24:24] So [01:24:25] we're bankrolling million dollar studies for new medications for [01:24:30] schizophrenia, no desire. So there's no mention in in these studies. [01:24:35] These are the same 20 people that we did our study on last year with the same 20 [01:24:40] people. So there's actually this, who gets better if they go right back to adult [01:24:45] daycare with supported living.

[01:24:47] And so I started going, what the hell is [01:24:50] going on? And so I left there going, I loved being around those [01:24:55] people and I hated the institution that I was supporting. And when I [01:25:00] left, started working in Australia. My wife's Australian, so I started going to Australia. And [01:25:05] I looked back at my work in wilderness therapy.

[01:25:07] I started going, how is [01:25:10] nobody talking about like the forced kidnapping of children? Like this is why Paris Hilton endorsed our [01:25:15] book. Like, 'cause Nevin and I started writing out and going, actually the researchers are [01:25:20] all funded by the industry. They've never admitted anything critical about this [01:25:25] kind of, you know, very involuntary practice and this institutionalizing of [01:25:30] children and I was just like, how is no.

[01:25:32] So I think very much we do [01:25:35] need to support the people that are calling people out and we use this video, I don't know if you've seen this one, [01:25:40] about being the first follower of somebody. Like that's more important [01:25:45] to building a movement than being the lone voice, that the best thing we [01:25:50] can do is support the people that we think are raising the alarm as well.

[01:25:54] The [01:25:55] schizos as you'd say. So I think very early in my career I started and [01:26:00] growing up in like a, like a punk rock community. It was always about calling, calling things out. Same. Yes. [01:26:05] Always about calling things out. And so I was just like, what? Hey, social work [01:26:10] degree, my teachers. Why, why are we not doing something about like, these are the [01:26:15] most vulnerable people like in the world, and why are we okay with them just [01:26:20] being rats in clinical trials and while these researchers get super rich off [01:26:25] all this funding?

[01:26:26] You know? And then this is the part like where my mom and I, we [01:26:30] love politics and we argue about it all the time. When, when the current administration like removes some [01:26:35] funding for NIHI go, well they've gotten away with a lot of dodgy [01:26:40] shit people. Like, and you know, that's not my, the way I lean politically, but I was [01:26:45] like the, like also, if you really knew this, there's a lot of icky here.[01:26:50]

[01:26:50] Like, and, and, and how these ideas come to, you know, fruition. Like, I mean, [01:26:55] we wrote about the history of Ritalin. Like that was a chemist coming up with [01:27:00] synthesized methylphenidate to test it on his wife so she could lose weight and [01:27:05] focus on her tennis a bit more. Her name was Marguerite, so he called it the Rita Line.

[01:27:09] [01:27:10] Ritalin, you know, Adderall was the name of Adderall is a weight loss drug. [01:27:15] Um, OALL, and I think that was what it's called. And then the guy who bought it [01:27:20] hired a marketing team who said a DD for all Adderall. Like, he's like, he thought it [01:27:25] was inclusive language. And it's like these, some of these ideas don't come from [01:27:30] laboratories of ethics, you know, and so I'm with you.

[01:27:33] We've gotta support the people who [01:27:35] are calling things out.

[01:27:36] Stephanie Winn: So what you're saying is you're a schizo too.

[01:27:38] Will Dobud: Yes. [01:27:40]

[01:27:40] Stephanie Winn: Yeah. Nothing quite like that club of us Schizos who are just smart enough to pass for [01:27:45] Normies whenever we want to. Right. Like we're the most dangerous people in the world, but we use our powers for [01:27:50] good.

[01:27:50] Yeah. Um, so you were talking about wilderness therapy, taking people [01:27:55] outdoors. There's a chapter leader in your book where you talk about the shortage of experience. And [01:28:00] I, I think earlier in the interview I was hearing you referring to that as well, like when we were talking [01:28:05] about how schools are really lacking in the types of experiences that they [01:28:10] allow kids to learn from, for example.

[01:28:12] So I, I'd like to bring it home for [01:28:15] especially the parents and the audience right now. 'cause this is something I notice them struggling with too. Um, [01:28:20] you know, I, I talk to a lot of parents who are fortunately, you know, affluent and [01:28:25] well-intentioned enough to be able to afford their kids lots of extracurriculars, but they're still like.[01:28:30]

[01:28:30] Experience gets confined to these extracurricular spaces, and you and I grew up punk [01:28:35] rock kids, so we, our experiences were not confined to the, uh, to the safe [01:28:40] extracurriculars. Right. We were in the mosh pit. Yeah. We were in protest. Um, mm-hmm. Not, not to say [01:28:45] that those are the best experiences to have, but what types of [01:28:50] experiences do we wanna support young people having and, and what do we need to do as a [01:28:55] society and what can parents do to support those developmentally appropriate experiences?

[01:28:59] Will Dobud: The book is [01:29:00] kind of outlined where we interviewed different sort of experts in the field and we [01:29:05] interviewed, um, Alan Beat Hansen sanded for this chapter, the Extinction of Experience. [01:29:10] And Ellen is like in Scandinavia, she's in Norway. She's like the foremost [01:29:15] researcher on risky play and rough and tumble play.

[01:29:18] And [01:29:20] Nevin actually on, on Nevin Harper MacArthur on his substack. He re-interviewed her [01:29:25] recently and. She said some, some things I wish she had [01:29:30] said when, when we talked to her for the book as well. But one of the things is I, [01:29:35] there can be a bit too much instruction and kids need to play in [01:29:40] roughhouse. So rough and tumble play in Norway, they're actually starting to prescribe [01:29:45] children that come to the clinics that are, that say, I, I might be autistic.

[01:29:49] It's like, [01:29:50] okay, well let's get you and go do some rough and tumble play. Uh, and also the great [01:29:55] thing of rough and tumble play is if you want your kids to learn about consent, they will sort this [01:30:00] out. They will learn what stop means, you know, and know I don't want to rough [01:30:05] house anymore. But what happens, and, and Ellen talked to Nevin about this, um, [01:30:10] project she did like 20 years ago where she was whittling, um, doing [01:30:15] whittling activities with young people that were, um, in, in, uh, in a, in a jail, in a [01:30:20] incarcerated facility, right?

[01:30:22] And she said the jail was so scared of [01:30:25] giving these kids knives. Right. And she said, don't worry, it will be okay. And they're doing [01:30:30] something and one might get a cut. And at the end of the study that she was doing, they said, yeah, you know, I [01:30:35] learned how to better use a knife. Like I know the mistake I made this and that.

[01:30:39] So really [01:30:40] what we tend to do is jump to the worst possible thing that could happen. [01:30:45] And what that does is it makes us go, let's not give that a try. But the other [01:30:50] thing that happens is when we're on the sidelines, let's say you're watching your kid climb a [01:30:55] tree, right? They might fall out of that tree.

[01:30:57] That's the risk they're taking, right? [01:31:00] The second you go watch out for that branch, you've actually [01:31:05] distracted your kid from the thing that they're doing now they're climbing a tree and worrying about your [01:31:10] anxiety. So one thing that's really helpful, I found this as someone who [01:31:15] I've never been a dog owner before, and we got a bulldog 10 years ago, [01:31:20] and I'll tell you, I knew nothing about dogs.

[01:31:23] My wife had never had a dog. [01:31:25] Sometimes me being around people that have had dogs really lowers my [01:31:30] anxiety. You know, why is he eating grass? Well, it's okay. [01:31:35] I go, okay, you know, he's doing dog things, you know, is he sick? Is [01:31:40] his allergies as bad as before? He's okay. You know, and so. [01:31:45] I learned a lot from being around other adults.

[01:31:47] What has happened in the [01:31:50] western world in our communities is we often live in places where we don't know our neighbors [01:31:55] and we don't have time with our kids, with other adults around. So even this notion [01:32:00] of a play date, I mean, I grew up in a neighborhood where we just went to the park and [01:32:05] saw what kids are there.

[01:32:06] And so that has really changed. This is [01:32:10] something that's really changed for kids where they don't see you with other adults as often [01:32:15] as before. So one of the things you can do is just set up times [01:32:20] where your kids can be with other kids without you involved. And yes, [01:32:25] something bad might happen, but at what cost is it taking this [01:32:30] away and having this safety, safety, safety.

[01:32:33] Um, and this, I, I think [01:32:35] being from Washington, DC I will say, um. One of the most [01:32:40] amazing things that happened, and this is sort of context that me as a, you know, I, [01:32:45] I like writing about this stuff too and doing presentations about it. In the [01:32:50] eighties, DC was the murder capital of the country, right? That's, this is a bit before my time.

[01:32:54] [01:32:55] I was just a baby in the eighties, so it was the murder capital of the country. [01:33:00] But simultaneously, one of the best youth driven, [01:33:05] DIY punk music scenes emerged with Fugazi, minor threat, bad brains, [01:33:10] teen idols, rites of spring, these amazing bands. What happened [01:33:15] at the time, and many of these were, you know, some of them like Ian mackay, they were like [01:33:20] private school kids at Georgetown Day School, but they wanted to play music [01:33:25] and they had some values about that.

[01:33:28] They thought every show should be [01:33:30] all ages. But the way, the reason this movement. [01:33:35] Really grew was really because venues would open their doors on the [01:33:40] weekends during the daytime. So everything was a matinee show, right? [01:33:45] So they'd close the bar and say, all these kids can come roughhouse right in [01:33:50] this, in this venue.

[01:33:51] Now, if you look at pictures of, like you said, of punk [01:33:55] shows, it looks violent, right? It looks like here are, here's the scum of the [01:34:00] earth roughhousing together. Now that movement was, you have bad [01:34:05] brains. So you have a, you have a a, a predominantly, you have a black punk band that is in [01:34:10] this predominantly white genre of music.

[01:34:12] You had people from all walks of life. It was [01:34:15] a very, uh, woman driven, uh, scene at the time as well. There's [01:34:20] great journalism books about the women of punk in punk rock in Washington, DC They're amazing. [01:34:25] So you had this entire movement. Was actually designed about giving [01:34:30] kids a safe place to do things that we don't like the look of as long as they're [01:34:35] home before dark, so the adults kind of left them alone.

[01:34:39] [01:34:40] But the parents were terrified. It was the murder capital of, of the world, of the of [01:34:45] of America, you know, and then what you had simultaneously is you [01:34:50] have Ian McKay writing about, you know, being straight edge. And that became its own kind of annoying [01:34:55] movement too, as well. But being straight edge, also PETA is getting very [01:35:00] popular.

[01:35:00] So then you have veganism in the punk scene, right? All these things [01:35:05] inspire, were inspired by this amazing movement of leaving the kids alone. [01:35:10] Now, what's really funny about that, we remember like, speaking of conspiracy, what's really funny, like, like the [01:35:15] Pizzagate, the story about like Hillary Clinton and, and you know, eating babies at, uh, at [01:35:20] Comet Pizza.

[01:35:21] Comet Pizza is one of those venues I've played punk shows at Comet [01:35:25] Pizza. You know, it's an amazing, it's got ping pong and shitty pizza and pizza's, okay? And [01:35:30] then they let kids play punk music, any band that want it. It's an amazing story of when you leave [01:35:35] the kids alone, they usually really sort it out.

[01:35:38] Right. And I see this as [01:35:40] also as an ice hockey player. If I go to the rink and a five-year-old [01:35:45] shows up for, you know, a pickup game of ice hockey, everyone goes, cool. [01:35:50] And the kid can play and play with people that are better than them. Worse than them. [01:35:55] And so everyone's kind of in it together. And I think that is the sort of thing I think [01:36:00] as I finished writing kids these days, my head was in this place of democracy [01:36:05] and participation.

[01:36:06] What have we given kids to participate? And I think the punk [01:36:10] community is a really great one because what do we want to do? We're going there to express [01:36:15] ourselves and the rough house. And maybe that's something developmentally many of us need. [01:36:20] Maybe a good mosh pit could save your life. Who knows? [01:36:25]

[01:36:25] Stephanie Winn: That's a great quote.

[01:36:27] Yeah. It's like, let kids [01:36:30] play and I mean, gosh, I, I scared the daylights out on my mother with the things I did as a [01:36:35] teen. And to be fair, they were very scary. They would've been very scary for any parent. [01:36:40] And now when parents join my course and one of my introductory videos, it's like, welcome to the course.

[01:36:44] I'm like, [01:36:45] here's my personal background and why I'm uniquely suited to operate at this [01:36:50] intersection of, you know, helping my Gen X and Boomer clients understand [01:36:55] their. Gen Z and Alpha kids as this elder millennial, I consider myself [01:37:00] honorary Gen Z. Um, yeah. Or excuse me, honorary, um, gen X. Yeah. 'cause I'm [01:37:05] married into Gen X.

[01:37:05] Um, yeah, I was thinking as you were talking about how we were talking about climbing trees like my [01:37:10] husband, gen X, he, uh, we saw some parent shouting at a kid in a tree [01:37:15] the other day and he was like, when I was growing up, I could be in a tree for two hours before anybody noticed I was in a [01:37:20] tree.

[01:37:20] Will Dobud: Yeah.

[01:37:21] That's a crawl suits. So, yeah.

[01:37:23] Stephanie Winn: Yeah. I mean, I did some really, really [01:37:25] risky stuff as a teenager, and I'm not saying that it was the smartest, but, [01:37:30] uh, but I, I survived and I developed like a thick skin despite being a [01:37:35] sensitive soul, if that makes sense.

[01:37:36] Will Dobud: Absolutely.

[01:37:37] Stephanie Winn: Let's close on one, one more of your [01:37:40] hopeful messages for, uh, parents and others who are worried about the [01:37:45] younger generation.

[01:37:45] Will Dobud: So I know that we started this with what, what, what do you, what are you gonna [01:37:50] notice? And, um. When I came to Australia, I started a [01:37:55] small nonprofit, um, doing outdoor expeditions with kids and normal [01:38:00] private practice stuff. And I, I used it as like my [01:38:05] laboratory to test out things that I was thinking about.

[01:38:08] And one of the things we [01:38:10] did, we built this parenting, it was a while, we were out on [01:38:15] expeditions for, for 14 days. The parents had a, like a short 10 minute webinar that [01:38:20] they got every day and a workbook that went along with, with our program and then stuff for [01:38:25] them to do. And before we went on the, on the [01:38:30] expedition, I had a call with each of the, each of the families, um, with the parents.

[01:38:34] And I said, [01:38:35] listen, us therapy people, we, we might have Doctor on [01:38:40] in front of our name or MSW after it, right? We've studied a lot, but we [01:38:45] can also. Get in the weeds on the wrong stuff. Like we can get stuck in our own [01:38:50] head and thinking what's important? And I just need to know before I take this kid [01:38:55] basically camping and hiking and canoeing and doing all this fun stuff for 14 days, what are the [01:39:00] things you do not want me to change about your child?

[01:39:03] And I [01:39:05] didn't really care what they said, I just wanted them to think about it. And [01:39:10] I think many of us know that despite how, you [01:39:15] know, divided the world seems and how, um, frustrating [01:39:20] technology is and how, you know, invasive mental health [01:39:25] concepts are, that if we pause and actually look [01:39:30] at what these kids have been through COVID, you know, all of these [01:39:35] things, they did kind of get on with it for the most part.

[01:39:38] And there's kids that are, and [01:39:40] families that are really struggling and I want them to know [01:39:45] that. That people we know, we can see, we can see that struggle. [01:39:50] And with, when I'm talking to parents, I want them to know that I hear their concerns. I [01:39:55] also want to know the other side of the story. So for every tale of [01:40:00] hardship and difficulty, there is a story of survival in there.

[01:40:04] And I [01:40:05] wanna know why you keep going. What made you pick up the phone and find, you [01:40:10] know, 'cause your, your child's not gonna Google will Doba and say, Hey mom, send [01:40:15] me to go see this guy. You know, um, that if we pay attention to the, [01:40:20] to how we notice things, it can be really good. And the, the example I, [01:40:25] I think I took this out of the book, but like if, if Renee and I have had an argument, [01:40:30] it's tempting to make that argument go on.

[01:40:32] Like, oh, she's so wrong. And then she's sitting there, why is [01:40:35] he chewing with his mouth open? How annoying is he? Instead of going, I get to live with my best friend. [01:40:40] That is gonna involve arguing and it's gonna involve being annoying, but what a [01:40:45] treat. I think that about my young adult children who, you know, I'm trying to be like, Hey, [01:40:50] move out.

[01:40:51] And then I'm like, I'm gonna miss this when they move out, you know? And they're amazing [01:40:55] kids. Like they're incredible. And I'm just like, yeah, they are really annoying. But at the same [01:41:00] time, this is actually a really precious time. How great is this? You know? So, [01:41:05] you know, it's okay to be like. The kids are annoying.

[01:41:09] You know, [01:41:10] every adult has said it, so it must just be adult phenomenon. You know, we, I know you read, when you read the book, like [01:41:15] we trace this back to Socrates whinging about the kids that's before Christ, you know, [01:41:20] 400 years before Christ. And he is saying, these kids are disrespectful to adults. They're [01:41:25] lazy.

[01:41:25] You know, going into the early 19 hundreds, everybody was scared of advanced [01:41:30] locomotion. Outward Bound was founded on this idea. The kids are outta shape and lazy [01:41:35] because of advanced locomotion. That was the 1930s. So it's good to go. [01:41:40] It's okay to complain about modern times. We, we have only lived in modern times, every [01:41:45] time as modern to what you live in.

[01:41:47] Also notice that those kids are [01:41:50] also adapting to the modern times, usually pretty okay. And some are really [01:41:55] struggling. And that's, that's, you know, important to notice that and listen and hear [01:42:00] it out. Um, but also to notice the things that are great and you can find [01:42:05] more of those great things by doing things together, having dinner together as a family, those sort of [01:42:10] things.

[01:42:10] And having great conversations.

[01:42:13] Stephanie Winn: Well, I think that's a fabulous [01:42:15] note to end on. Uh, will Doba, thank you so much for joining us. So, [01:42:20] um, everyone, his book, I'm gonna hold it up to the screen. If you are watching on YouTube Kids these [01:42:25] days, understanding and Supporting Youth Mental Health by Will Dobo and Nevin Harper.

[01:42:29] [01:42:30] Um, people can find this everywhere. Books are found.

[01:42:32] Will Dobud: Yep. Maybe

[01:42:33] Stephanie Winn: in

[01:42:34] Will Dobud: store, in your [01:42:35] nice book, you know, nice independent bookstore if you wanted to support your bookstore. Um, but yeah, [01:42:40] anywhere, Amazon, anywhere you buy your books.

[01:42:42] Stephanie Winn: Where else can people find you?

[01:42:43] Will Dobud: I'm pretty open [01:42:45] book, so, and my name is really, uh, simple to find me.

[01:42:48] So any of the social media [01:42:50] platforms, I try to be active on that, um, when it's not soul destroying. [01:42:55] And, um, I, uh, um, will dobo.com, you can get in touch with [01:43:00] me. Um, and anyway, I just, the, the, the coolest thing about doing, doing this book and [01:43:05] drifting away from the outdoor therapy field, um, uh, in, in as far as academic [01:43:10] writing, um, was just meeting new people.

[01:43:12] So I love people getting in touch and being in contact, [01:43:15] and I really appreciate the time with you and your awesome podcasts that you've grown, which is so [01:43:20] amazing. So, um, thank you. I really appreciate it.

[01:43:22] Stephanie Winn: And, uh, are you seeing [01:43:25] patients?

[01:43:25] Will Dobud: I have a small, I keep a small practice here in Adelaide. Um, I'm still trying to [01:43:30] find the COVID ID.

[01:43:32] Really crushed our [01:43:35] nonprofit. Um, and I was lucky that I simultaneously got offered full-time work at a university. [01:43:40] So I'm hoping that we can bring, um, that full nonprofit back. But I [01:43:45] always con I have consultation and do tons of different things. I keep my feet in [01:43:50] every door so I don't become a stale, crusty academic who hasn't seen a client in 20 [01:43:55] years.

[01:43:55] So, uh, which is far more common than we think, which is [01:44:00] terrifying. But, um, no. Yeah. So keep a small practice and, uh, I just wanna get back to [01:44:05] expedition work 'cause that is my. That's me at my best, so. Oh,

[01:44:09] Stephanie Winn: [01:44:10] that sounds so fun. Wish I was on a kayak in Australia right now.

[01:44:14] Will Dobud: Yes, [01:44:15] that's right. Well, we're in the, oddly enough, I don't know when this will come out, but we've just had a like [01:44:20] two and a half weeks of over a hundred degrees, so there's been nothing good about going outside.[01:44:25]

[01:44:26] Brutal. Yeah.

[01:44:28] Stephanie Winn: Alright, well thanks so much. It's been a [01:44:30] pleasure.

[01:44:31] Will Dobud: Thank you.

[01:44:32] Stephanie Winn: Thank you for listening to you [01:44:35] Must Be some kind of Therapist. If you enjoyed this episode. Kindly take a [01:44:40] moment to rate, review, share, or comment on it using your platform of choice. [01:44:45] And of course, please remember, podcasts are not therapy and I'm not your [01:44:50] therapist.

[01:44:51] Special thanks to Joey Rero for this awesome theme [01:44:55] song, half Awake and to Pods by Nick for production. For help [01:45:00] navigating the impact of the gender craze on your family, be sure to check out my program [01:45:05] for parents, ROGD, repair. [01:45:10] Any resource you heard mentioned on this show, plus how to get in touch with me, can all be found in [01:45:15] the notes and links below.

[01:45:17] Rain or shine. I hope you will step [01:45:20] outside to breathe the air today in the words of Max Airman. [01:45:25] With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful [01:45:30] [01:45:35] [01:45:40] [01:45:45] [01:45:50] [01:45:55] [01:46:00] [01:46:05] world.