You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist

[00:00:00] Dean Abbott: If you have a young, insecure person who is living at kind of the [00:00:05] whim of our nihilistic culture, that young person can easily [00:00:10] fall into a deep kind of involvement in his or her own inward [00:00:15] narratives of what things mean, what his or her place is in the [00:00:20] world, how he or she's gonna function, and their important relationships.

[00:00:24] The [00:00:25] ruminative nature of that thought does not come from knowing. It [00:00:30] comes from pain and it is an attempt to understand the [00:00:35] problem and to cure it so that the pain goes away. People don't ruminate for fun. They [00:00:40] ruminate because they're looking for something.

[00:00:43] You must be some kind of [00:00:45] therapist

[00:00:49] Stephanie Winn: today. I have the [00:00:50] pleasure of speaking with Dean Abbott. He is a chaplain, coach and [00:00:55] author living in the Midwest. And as you might have noticed, if you normally [00:01:00] see these on YouTube, uh, we are not able to get our video to work today. We had a lot of technical [00:01:05] difficulties and eventually decided, okay, we'll just do this as an audio only.

[00:01:08] You're listening. Nothing should be [00:01:10] different. But what is different about our experience of speaking is that we can't see each other, so that'll [00:01:15] perhaps promote a different way of thinking. Anyway, this was when I would normally smile at [00:01:20] my guest. Didn't see him smiling back, but Dean, welcome to the podcast.

[00:01:23] Great to have you.

[00:01:24] Dean Abbott: [00:01:25] Thank you very much. I, you know, I had having to go, audio only is a shame because [00:01:30] I sat down at the computer today and looked at myself and I thought. This is probably the handsomest [00:01:35] you've ever been. I mean, it's, it's just, I'll [00:01:40] probably never be this handsome again.

[00:01:42] Stephanie Winn: You having a good hair day?

[00:01:43] Dean Abbott: Yeah, that, that, let's [00:01:45] put it that way. No, thank you very much for having me.

[00:01:47] Stephanie Winn: Well, I put time into my makeup for nothing, but at [00:01:50] least I can occupy a somewhat cozier position on the couch, which feels appropriate. [00:01:55] For the, the mood of this set, dreary February day that we're recording on. Before we [00:02:00] started recording, I was just kind of venting about some of my recent hardships and, uh, you seem like a nice [00:02:05] person to, to talk to when life gets real.

[00:02:07] The reason that I [00:02:10] initially invited you here is, you know, I've been following you on X for some time and you seem like a really [00:02:15] thoughtful person, and you'd shared this post about healthy versus unhealthy introspection, and I really [00:02:20] noticed that because. It's something that I talked about in a recent conversation here with Brant [00:02:25] Elwood, and it's something that I think is very relevant to the topic of [00:02:30] mental health, psychology, spiritual growth, all that kind of stuff.

[00:02:33] I feel like [00:02:35] introspection is something that is generally praised, especially in those [00:02:40] fields, but where do we draw the line between introspection and [00:02:45] rumination or narcissism for that matter? So I thought you'd be a great person to have that conversation with. [00:02:50]

[00:02:50] Dean Abbott: I hear this all the time. I actually heard it, I saw some video on YouTube about [00:02:55] this today that, um, you know, [00:03:00] encouraging psychology encourages people to look inside themselves.

[00:03:03] And that's why we [00:03:05] have so many narcissistic young people, you know, that kind of argument. And I think [00:03:10] most famously, I, I remember hearing Abigail Schreyer promoting her [00:03:15] book on the Joe Rogan podcast, say. [00:03:20] Rumination is the number one symptom of depression. And so what happens is that [00:03:25] these people go to a therapist who encourages their rumination and they really need [00:03:30] to think about something other than themselves.

[00:03:32] I'm sure you've heard that kind of argument. [00:03:35]

[00:03:35] Stephanie Winn: Yeah, and I've, I've made similar arguments, but I feel like there's a lot of [00:03:40] context and nuance surrounding them. I'm curious what you think of the [00:03:45] argument that you just summarized.

[00:03:47] Dean Abbott: I don't think that argument holds at all. [00:03:50] Okay. I think that, first of all, when I [00:03:55] travel around the world, you know, I don't look around at the particularly [00:04:00] young people today.

[00:04:01] Look at how they operate and I think, you know, the problem is that guy, [00:04:05] he's just too introspective. You know, if I'm at the. [00:04:10] Grocery store and there's, you know, a bunch of young guys behaving [00:04:15] poorly. I never think, wow. The problem with that guy is that he just wonders too [00:04:20] much if he's doing the right thing.

[00:04:23] I, I mean this [00:04:25] idea that young people are obsessively introspective, in my [00:04:30] experience, first of all is not born out at all. And that comes from someone [00:04:35] who has been a, a, a teacher, both at the high school and at the university [00:04:40] level. Done that a lot. And I, I've never thought, wow, my students just know [00:04:45] themselves too well.

[00:04:45] Right.

[00:04:46] Stephanie Winn: Well, I mean, if you equate introspection with knowing yourself, but [00:04:50] there, there's the rub, right? Because isn't it sort of like introspection gives the [00:04:55] promise of self-knowledge?

[00:04:56] Dean Abbott: Yes. Well, I think that we do [00:05:00] have. Young people who are ruminative, [00:05:05] let's say that, right? That they are caught up in their own inward narratives.

[00:05:09] [00:05:10] So that, okay, so let's start with that. If you have a young, insecure [00:05:15] person who is living at kind of the whim of our ne nihilistic [00:05:20] culture. That young person can easily fall into a [00:05:25] deep kind of involvement in his or her own inward narratives of what [00:05:30] things mean, what his or her place is in the world, how he [00:05:35] or she's gonna function in those rela in, in their important relationships.

[00:05:39] And [00:05:40] part of the what makes. That happened, I think is two things, and this is why I don't [00:05:45] necessarily agree with the Abigail Schreyer argument, is that the ruminative [00:05:50] nature of that thought does not come from nowhere. It comes [00:05:55] from pain and it is an attempt to understand the [00:06:00] problem into cure. It. So that the pain goes away.

[00:06:04] People don't [00:06:05] ruminate for fun. They ruminate because they're looking for something. So it's more like, it's not [00:06:10] that they are necessarily, I don't think narcissistically [00:06:15] self-obsessed. They're like a person who believes he [00:06:20] or she has lost something of great value in his home. And [00:06:25] can't stop looking for it because they think that if they can get the lost thing back, [00:06:30] the fear and pain that they're experiencing will go away.

[00:06:32] So the, the issue isn't [00:06:35] that they just enjoy looking for lost things too much. The issue is what has, [00:06:40] what have they lost and are they going about it in the right way? And I don't think the Abigail [00:06:45] Schreyer kind of argument accounts for that at all.

[00:06:48] Stephanie Winn: You're raising the question of [00:06:50] why we ruminate in the first place.

[00:06:52] Our mind is trying to solve a problem. Something [00:06:55] hurts.

[00:06:55] Dean Abbott: Right?

[00:06:56] Stephanie Winn: Which you framed as something that feels missing or [00:07:00] lost or something that we feel a need to fix. But it seems like we're not always [00:07:05] very good at thinking through how to solve those problems. And so [00:07:10] rumination can lead to getting stuck instead.

[00:07:13] Dean Abbott: Sure. You just keep looking [00:07:15] forever. Right. But I think there's another part of that that is [00:07:20] really. Missed and that is that there is a kind of unhealthy rumination [00:07:25] that is like constantly seeking within the self answers to [00:07:30] questions that can only halfway be answered within. In our [00:07:35] culture, we don't have the other half.

[00:07:36] So let's say unhealthy rumination [00:07:40] is a kind of pointless. Thinking about, [00:07:45] say, negative experiences you've had, um, where, where the content [00:07:50] of your thoughts is essentially the same and it just goes over and over and over. But in [00:07:55] order to make your thinking, I think about your own growth and your [00:08:00] problems.

[00:08:01] Productive. It has to be done in light of [00:08:05] some external standard, so some external [00:08:10] input that you receive from somewhere that our culture does not offer to [00:08:15] most people.

[00:08:16] Stephanie Winn: What do you mean by an external standard?

[00:08:19] Dean Abbott: Well, I just wanna, [00:08:20] I'm just making the point that there's a difference between a kind of nihilistic [00:08:25] rumination in which a person just rehearses their pain.

[00:08:29] [00:08:30] Okay. Or engages in fantasies of what I should have said to that person who hurt [00:08:35] me, or if I were a better or different kind of person, I wouldn't have sustained these [00:08:40] losses. But there's no, there's no external meta-narrative in our [00:08:45] culture to tell anyone what a loss means. So I wanna, I would, [00:08:50] for example, contrast this kind of pointless nihilistic [00:08:55] rumination with a kind of serious practice of Christian.

[00:08:59] [00:09:00] Self-examination and you know, I'm, I'm just using the Christian model here because that's, you know, [00:09:05] I'm a Christian, that's what I'm familiar with. But in, in, in, in a serious model of [00:09:10] Christian self-examination, we are always looking at [00:09:15] ourselves, looking at what's happening inside us, becoming aware of our feelings, our [00:09:20] desires, our motivations, et cetera, and we can reflect on those at [00:09:25] great length.

[00:09:26] Look at our formative influences, but [00:09:30] we can do that in a way that does not become depressive, doesn't become [00:09:35] narcissistic or orient us toward withdrawal from the world because we [00:09:40] have, within the Christian narrative, we have a program [00:09:45] of sort of growth, and we have. An external [00:09:50] standard for what we should be.

[00:09:51] And so we can ask ourselves not just the question, where's this [00:09:55] lost thing? Right? And why did all this happen to me? We could actually ask [00:10:00] ourselves, what would it look like for me to grow into the kind of [00:10:05] person I should be? And that's a much more productive [00:10:10] question for self-examination than a kind of [00:10:15] pointless nihilistic rumination.

[00:10:17] I don't know if the. Distinction I'm making is clear. [00:10:20]

[00:10:20] Stephanie Winn: Well, I'm wondering how vulnerable I should get on my own [00:10:25] podcast. 'cause once I put something out there, it's like, it's, it's out there. But, but this feels really [00:10:30] close to home recently. And, and I'm thinking of giving an example, so I'll see if [00:10:35] I can use myself as an example without saying anything I regret.

[00:10:38] So lately I've [00:10:40] been feeling that sense of loss, um, sort of like a bereft feeling [00:10:45] because. My social life isn't what I wish it was.

[00:10:49] Dean Abbott: Mm-hmm. [00:10:50]

[00:10:50] Stephanie Winn: I spend all day online talking to people one day a week. I record [00:10:55] podcasts four days a week I coach. So I'm talking to people online all the [00:11:00] time and usually in a, a role where I'm helping.

[00:11:04] We're [00:11:05] advising, guiding, instructing, hosting, interviewing. The focus is on [00:11:10] being generative and generous toward others. And then during my free time, I [00:11:15] try to build community locally, but that also often puts me in the role where [00:11:20] I'm the one extending myself to others. I'm. Hosting, inviting [00:11:25] networking, and I've noticed that I'm not getting a lot back, and [00:11:30] I recently had some personal hardships where I really needed a friend.

[00:11:34] I really [00:11:35] needed a support system and couldn't find it. I couldn't find the type of support [00:11:40] system I was looking for, and it was like, well, why not? I've, I've [00:11:45] certainly hosted my share of dinner parties. I, I reach out, I am helpful and kind to [00:11:50] people, I introduce people to, people that they will, like, why isn't that support system [00:11:55] there for me?

[00:11:56] So I found myself kind of constantly on the verge of [00:12:00] rumination in an unhelpful direction and trying to like pull it back. Finding that part of me that I [00:12:05] know is just trying to solve a problem, right? It's, I'm in pain. Where are my friends? [00:12:10] Who can I lean on? Have I done something wrong? You know what, what have I not done [00:12:15] right to like find myself lacking that support system?

[00:12:18] Is it my fault? Is it their [00:12:20] fault? And I'm curious about, you know, that that Christian self-examination [00:12:25] that you described. Because it gives a little bit of a framework to think about [00:12:30] what Jesus encourages us to do in terms of, you know, the way that we extend [00:12:35] ourselves to others without expectation of return.

[00:12:37] But then in practice, in [00:12:40] practice, uh, not living in the kingdom of heaven where everyone is, [00:12:45] you know, equally kind and generous. It can become a little [00:12:50] worrisome. What would be like an example of a a, a Christian self-examination [00:12:55] method of reflecting on something like that, that loneliness or that feeling of lack of reciprocity?[00:13:00]

[00:13:00] Dean Abbott: Well, I think what you've described, I would begin to want to examine [00:13:05] an assumption that has arisen that you talked about, right? Which is that we put [00:13:10] ourselves out there with no expectation of return. I'm not sure that's true. [00:13:15] So this is part of, so let me walk through the, what I'm thinking about it would be like [00:13:20] health, a healthy kind of self-examination.

[00:13:22] You find, okay, I'm having a rough [00:13:25] time and I'm lonely. I think that's an essential problem. You're, you're describing there I'm lonely. [00:13:30] Uh, I don't feel connected to people the way I want to. So then it comes up, [00:13:35] well, I'm putting myself out there and I'm not getting back much. So now the question is, [00:13:40] do I get angry about that or do I try to?

[00:13:43] Now that becomes a [00:13:45] solvable problem and a lot of the [00:13:50] differentiation between a kind of nihilistic self [00:13:55] rumination versus a more Christian or more directed. [00:14:00] More productive self-examination is whether or not [00:14:05] solvable problems come up. 'cause if you live in a nihilistic [00:14:10] world, then there aren't very many problems that are solvable because it is the [00:14:15] basic nature of reality that you can't ever solve your fundamental problem because nothing matters, [00:14:20] nothing.

[00:14:20] There's, there's no, uh, very little external [00:14:25] structure for your emotional life. But when you have some external [00:14:30] structure for your emotional life, you can then say, well, okay, so part of [00:14:35] the reason I'm lonely is because I'm telling myself I do these things [00:14:40] without expecting anything in return. And at that point you can either become [00:14:45] resentful or you could think well.

[00:14:47] Maybe that's not the case. That you [00:14:50] are a human being who has limits and you've created as a limited creature. [00:14:55] And what it means to be a limited creature is to have needs. And so now the [00:15:00] question is, okay, so that's legitimate. It's a legitimate thing. You are saying you need, you need [00:15:05] connection. Now it's just a matter of like what action can be taken [00:15:10] to solve that problem.

[00:15:11] So you're actually becoming a person [00:15:15] who. Unlike the, the person who, who's obsessed with looking through his house, you actually become [00:15:20] a person who kind of has an inkling where the thing you're looking for might be, [00:15:25] and you begin to think about how to take action to make that happen [00:15:30] because you have kind of come to a point where you, you're, your self-examination [00:15:35] has revealed your legitimate need.

[00:15:38] Is that clear? [00:15:40]

[00:15:40] Stephanie Winn: I'll tell you where I struggle with that. So I'm not like your conventional [00:15:45] Christian. I'm, I'm trying to follow Jesus. I ran into some problems with the Old [00:15:50] Testament and the only person whose answers to those questions made any sense to me is [00:15:55] someone who says that he left the Christian Church to follow Jesus and has a [00:16:00] much different interpretation of those things.

[00:16:02] And I was listening to a talk by this individual recently. [00:16:05] Where he talked about the history of Jesus' followers, which [00:16:10] began in the first century a day, just being known as the way, as I'm sure you know, better, [00:16:15] better than I do. And, and the moral of the story after listening this whole talk on the history [00:16:20] of the church was invite others to your home and [00:16:25] have them over for dinner and extend your kindness toward them and try to be that.

[00:16:29] [00:16:30] Extension of Jesus' love in the world. And I thought, you know, we're not doing half bad. That is [00:16:35] what we have been doing. My husband and I, we have been hosting dinner parties and you know, meeting [00:16:40] and connecting with people and giving hospitality. And so I think I found a tension because [00:16:45] there's a part of me that feels like that's the kind of person I wanna be.

[00:16:49] You know, [00:16:50] I wanna be that generous host. And then there's another part of me that's [00:16:55] like, wait a minute. You've been to my house five times and I haven't been to yours [00:17:00] once.

[00:17:00] Dean Abbott: Right?

[00:17:01] Stephanie Winn: You've come to all these things I've invited you to, but it's never [00:17:05] occurred to you to invite me to anything, and where do I reach my limit?

[00:17:08] And, and so I think [00:17:10] it's a question for me of like, which path is following Jesus? Right? Do I, because I, I [00:17:15] don't think that continuing to extend myself where there's a lack of reciprocity is healthy for me, but I [00:17:20] also think that it's a reflection of my values. I mean, you're right to point out [00:17:25] that there are needs and limits, but I'm curious, especially because you do have that Christian [00:17:30] framework, like what is that external standard that we measure ourselves by?

[00:17:33] Dean Abbott: In terms of what, like [00:17:35] how, how generous we are?

[00:17:37] Stephanie Winn: Yeah.

[00:17:38] Dean Abbott: Well, I think [00:17:40] we have a hierarchy with regard to our generosity in anything, right? [00:17:45] So we all, for example, would not think, well, I [00:17:50] should serve people so fully. That I just stop sleeping [00:17:55] and I'm never gonna sleep again. Right. So the question is, in what way [00:18:00] is your need for relational reciprocity different from your [00:18:05] need for sleep?

[00:18:05] And I just, I don't think it is particularly different because they're both [00:18:10] necessary for your flourishing into the sort of fullness [00:18:15] of whom you are for the person you're created to be. And you need relational [00:18:20] reciprocity for that, just like you need sleep. Then there is no clear cut standard. [00:18:25] Okay.

[00:18:26] Because a lot I think of, I mean this is going kind of a different [00:18:30] direction than I had thought, but a lot of kind of living a Christian [00:18:35] life is the development of wisdom. And so I can't say to you, well, [00:18:40] you should. You should have people over six nights a week. I have, don't have that authority, [00:18:45] but what I can do is to encourage you, for example.

[00:18:49] To [00:18:50] be realistic about your needs and to not [00:18:55] dismiss those out of a kind of hyper spirituality. And once [00:19:00] you've accepted that you have those needs, then it's a matter of developing [00:19:05] wisdom about what works for you to get you, move you toward [00:19:10] that end of, um, sort of becoming the fullness of yourself. So [00:19:15] it's a wisdom issue and not an issue of a specific rule following.[00:19:20]

[00:19:20] Stephanie Winn: And I take it to return to the original subject, that that would be part of your [00:19:25] definition of healthy introspection. At wisdom.

[00:19:27] Dean Abbott: Yeah, yeah,

[00:19:28] yeah. Is to, [00:19:30] yes. Yes. So there is a kind of introspection that is nihilistic and there is a [00:19:35] kind that leads to wisdom. And I'll say something about wisdom because [00:19:40] it is a quality that.

[00:19:41] I think you can look around in the world and see the [00:19:45] world is not overflowing with it necessarily, but particularly when you [00:19:50] wanna talk about Christian people, I think it oftentimes in many [00:19:55] Christian. Subgroups, context, et cetera. There's almost a kind of [00:20:00] anti wisdom. What I mean by that is that it is part of kind of [00:20:05] the moral spiritual faith development of a lot of people [00:20:10] to, to go through stages and one of those stages [00:20:15] is gives me a rule for everything or it is.

[00:20:18] How much can I [00:20:20] do this without feeling bad, right? Like, how much can I have people over [00:20:25] before I start to feel like I'm being taken advantage of?

[00:20:28] We gotta get kind of stuck in this [00:20:30] emotional thing where we, well then we think, but can I trust those emotions?

[00:20:33] Or we, we look [00:20:35] outward to our church, or even to the Bible or whatever, for a very clear rule about everything.[00:20:40]

[00:20:40] But really that's like one phase of faith development and [00:20:45] moral development. Whereas long term, what you're trying to do is get to a phase where you [00:20:50] have internalized the Christian perspective, the gospel perspective on [00:20:55] things. And you then you. As an individual have to take [00:21:00] moral responsibility for making the decisions for [00:21:05] your own life where there is no clear cut rule.

[00:21:08] So I can tell you, [00:21:10] Stephanie, you should not commit murder. There's a very clear [00:21:15] biblical command not to do that, right? I can't tell you. You should have people [00:21:20] over six nights a week, because I don't know what it's like to be in your body. I don't know what it's like to be in your marriage. I don't know [00:21:25] what it's like to be where you are financially anything.

[00:21:27] And so [00:21:30] that becomes a decision you have to make as wisely as possible.

[00:21:34] Stephanie Winn: Tell us [00:21:35] more about the qualities and processes of healthy introspection [00:21:40] and how they differ from unhealthy, let's say narcissistic rumination, for [00:21:45] example.

[00:21:45] Dean Abbott: I think healthy introspection leads to hope. Let's say it that way [00:21:50] because you, you come to know yourself, you know, the standard and I mean, we could use some other [00:21:55] standard too, like, you know, like there's a kind of a revival and stoicism that's been going [00:22:00] on for the last three years.

[00:22:01] And a lot of, I think what the peel of stoicism is probably [00:22:05] particularly among young men is that it provides a kind of moral standard. [00:22:10] So in stoicism, you know, makes a lot of, puts a lot of emphasis on not being [00:22:15] reactive and being a victim to things that you can't control. And so young [00:22:20] man, let's say he's read some stoic literature and he's starting to reflect on [00:22:25] himself, okay, I, I'm feeling really upset about this.

[00:22:28] I'm really angry. I'm really sad. [00:22:30] Is this something I can control or not? So he appeals then to an [00:22:35] external school of thought, an external standard, an external truth that [00:22:40] structures his internal rumination so he doesn't fall into [00:22:45] just confusion. He can say, yes, it's, it's something I can't control, [00:22:50] so therefore I will, now I have the hope that I can [00:22:55] become the kind of person who is less reactive to this.

[00:22:58] And so it leads [00:23:00] to the hope of increased internal [00:23:05] structure out of which we can respond to the difficulties in vicissitudes [00:23:10] of life without collapsing into [00:23:15] narcissistic. Rumination about, not even just about ourselves, but about our experience and about [00:23:20] other people and, and that kind of thing. So the problem I have with the Abigail Schreyer sort of [00:23:25] argument is that it takes, it only offers two options, [00:23:30] which is stop thinking so much about yourself or just focus on something else.[00:23:35]

[00:23:35] And neither of those is deep enough to actually promote any kind of growth [00:23:40] on the part of a human being. And what you really have to have is lots of [00:23:45] self-examination in a light of an external standard or, or, uh, an [00:23:50] standard you wanna live up to or a goal you wanna achieve. I'll say [00:23:55] one more thing too. I do coaching with, mostly with men, though I do [00:24:00] coach women at times too.

[00:24:01] It is really interesting because I coach people from all kinds of [00:24:05] faith backgrounds and what we always do at the beginning, what I always [00:24:10] do is I just, we do a real thorough inventory of [00:24:15] that person's goals and desires, and I find that, especially with [00:24:20] men, you say, well, what do you want in life? And they have zero clue.

[00:24:24] Because [00:24:25] you know, if you're a man and a lot of times pe you go your whole life, people don't ask you that. [00:24:30] And so I ask them, many men have no idea. And so even if [00:24:35] they aren't particularly religious or philosophically oriented, a lot of times [00:24:40] just having a clear sense of who they are and what they actually want.[00:24:45]

[00:24:45] Is enough to pull them out of that kind of depressive rumination and put them [00:24:50] on a path that actually is leading somewhere. I don't think like, you know, [00:24:55] contra Abigail Schreyer, I don't think rumination leads to depression. I [00:25:00] think that what probably leaves a lot of people to depression is a [00:25:05] lack of a lack of any kind of internal structure, even if that [00:25:10] just comes from their own.

[00:25:11] Goals.

[00:25:12] Stephanie Winn: It's so much easier to [00:25:15] identify what's wrong or the feeling that something is wrong [00:25:20] than identify what that signifies a lack of, [00:25:25] that we might be able to build in our lives.

[00:25:27] Dean Abbott: Yeah, I think that is true, and it [00:25:30] takes a lot of work to get to the point where we see that feeling as [00:25:35] information about something instead of just an immediate reaction.[00:25:40]

[00:25:40] So we have a feeling that we're lonely and it, [00:25:45] I think it's very typical to think, well, I shouldn't be so either something's wrong with me or something's [00:25:50] wrong with other people. And so I get resentful toward them and I start to hate [00:25:55] myself. And I, you know, then I become very, uh, critical of myself. [00:26:00] Might say, well, you know, you wouldn't be lonely if you were better in [00:26:05] this way or that way.

[00:26:06] But all of that is very unproductive. When really what we need to [00:26:10] think is, well, okay, I'm feeling really sad because I don't have any [00:26:15] connections and that's tells me that I'm built for relationship [00:26:20] and I have to be responsible for putting myself in a situation where [00:26:25] some of that, or I'm getting at least some of that need met.

[00:26:28] What are some practical things [00:26:30] I could do to get that? And I just think that transition from [00:26:35] my emotions are an overwhelming reality that I can do nothing about [00:26:40] to my emotions are telling me something important about what I need and who I am and what my [00:26:45] situation is like, and what can I do about it.

[00:26:48] That's a huge and just [00:26:50] absolutely critical transition for people to make as we're all growing [00:26:55] up.

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[00:27:31] Dean Abbott: to take half off your first month.

[00:27:34] Stephanie Winn: [00:27:35] We're talking about emotional intelligence, being able to decode our emotions, what [00:27:40] they're telling us about our needs, and, and to identify those [00:27:45] needs as.

[00:27:46] Things that we can fulfill through actions and, and it takes [00:27:50] vulnerability to do that because there's, there's always the parts of the picture we can't [00:27:55] control, especially when we're talking about social needs, which are such a huge part of the [00:28:00] picture. You know, I think where I am tempted to enter a negative [00:28:05] cycle of rumination would be if I were to get lost in [00:28:10] the thought that.

[00:28:11] Well, I've already done all the things, you know, I've, I've [00:28:15] hosted and invited and I've done all these things and it's not working, so therefore, what's [00:28:20] wrong with me? Or like, you say, what's wrong with other people, but to have that hope [00:28:25] that you're talking about requires faith and vulnerability because there has to be openness to the possibility [00:28:30] of maybe there's another course of action I can take even in a world where.[00:28:35]

[00:28:35] Other people are unpredictable and the only thing I can control is my own [00:28:40] actions. Still. I have to trust that the world has enough coherence and enough basic [00:28:45] goodness that I can kind of put one foot in front of the other and take steps that seem like [00:28:50] they're likely to lead me to that goal and, and just hope for the best.

[00:28:54] Dean Abbott: Yes. I [00:28:55] don't know if you follow Jonathan Schuler on Twitter. Um, he's a very well known [00:29:00] psychologist and, uh, someone that I. Someone I've learned a lot from and whom I [00:29:05] respect, but he's recently been writing a little bit about how psych, the, the [00:29:10] psychology project, as he calls it, is not moral education. And that has, for [00:29:15] example, makes psychology different from any kind of religious counseling, which he thinks [00:29:20] somehow consists primarily of moral education.

[00:29:22] But really, it, it [00:29:25] doesn't. Now I wanna talk about two things. The first thing I talk about is that. [00:29:30] Our culture has entirely lost [00:29:35] the notion of formation and of experience and education as [00:29:40] formative. When I was in high school, I had a wonderful teacher whom I was friends with [00:29:45] for a decade until he died in 2024, and I [00:29:50] remember he had a drawing on the wall in his [00:29:55] classroom and it was.

[00:29:57] A drawing of a human head and the top had been [00:30:00] flipped open like a hinge, and there were books pouring into it. And I [00:30:05] remember he talked about this is an example of what your education should not be. [00:30:10] You're not here to just have us pour these facts into you, but rather he was a [00:30:15] English and literature teacher.

[00:30:17] But rather the things that you read and [00:30:20] experience, they shape you almost as if you are clay. Okay? [00:30:25] We don't in our culture have any real notion of human and [00:30:30] spiritual formation, and we think, well, so like [00:30:35] education is, you know, becomes just about knowing a bunch of facts, the media you [00:30:40] consume. It has no formative effect on you.

[00:30:43] It's just something you would entertained [00:30:45] by for a couple of hours and it's gone. Your relationships with one another don't [00:30:50] really change the shape of your mind and soul. What is friendship for in our culture [00:30:55] anyway, other than just a person that you don't mind doing fun things with? And I [00:31:00] think part of the, what we're discussing here, it becomes kind [00:31:05] of anorexic when we lose that concept of formation.

[00:31:09] So that [00:31:10] like our lives, as we try to move away from a kind [00:31:15] of an artistic way of thinking, that we can't just [00:31:20] flip a switch and do that. It's a long process of formation. And I [00:31:25] think we all would be more compassionate with one another if we tended to see [00:31:30] people in the process of their formation somewhere.

[00:31:32] If we said, look, we're all growing [00:31:35] up and we're all growing up at different rates in different, different ways, [00:31:40] and how can we be positive? Positive influences on one another's [00:31:45] formation. Like the people you encounter, they're clay-Like how are you [00:31:50] going to make them something stronger or more beautiful?

[00:31:53] Stephanie Winn: That's really beautiful [00:31:55] and it resonates with my understanding of people. I don't use the word [00:32:00] formation, but I, I might have to borrow that. I often talk about development. Because so much of the [00:32:05] work I do, I mean exclusively the work I do when I'm not PO podcasting, I am [00:32:10] talking to parents who are concerned about their adolescent and young adult children.[00:32:15]

[00:32:15] So I have that formative, you know, what I usually call developmental, but a formative [00:32:20] lens. Right? Thinking, you know, I, I've often advised parents, for instance, most [00:32:25] young people when they're 17, 18 are quite narcissistic. But [00:32:30] how you respond and how the rest of the world responds to that stage in their [00:32:35] development.

[00:32:36] Is a big part of what shapes who they'll be when they're 30 years old. Right. They're [00:32:40] this work in progress and, and I even explain and I break down like why a [00:32:45] young person as they're gearing up for this intimidating thing called adulthood, why they form a false [00:32:50] sense of self in order to deal with it in the first place.

[00:32:53] As a, you know, a [00:32:55] coping mechanism and what are the factors that kind of influence whether that coping [00:33:00] mechanism can fall away gradually as a real true self emerges, or whether they lean more and [00:33:05] more heavily into the false self that they've constructed. So I'm gonna have to borrow that [00:33:10] word for.

[00:33:10] Formation. And you know, it's rarely more true than when it comes to parenting young [00:33:15] people, but I like how you apply that lens to people at all stages in their lives because we, [00:33:20] we do never stop growing and, and we, we shape what we bring out in one another.

[00:33:24] Dean Abbott: Yeah. And I [00:33:25] think too, I wanna make a distinction between development and formation.

[00:33:29] Stephanie Winn: Okay. That,

[00:33:29] Dean Abbott: you [00:33:30] know, I believe that. And I'm obviously not the only one, but that human [00:33:35] beings have a kind of internal plan for their development [00:33:40] and we develop according to that. But that process, and I, and I don't think that, just [00:33:45] like biologically, I really think that is true uniquely [00:33:50] for each individual that there is a kind of real.

[00:33:53] Self [00:33:55] that you're supposed to develop into, but that, that process goes haywire in in many, many [00:34:00] ways as you're talking about, right? And it becomes the development of coping mechanisms, defense [00:34:05] mechanisms, the false self, all of that. And the question that a formation is, [00:34:10] what do we do to form one another in ways [00:34:15] that are more in alignment with that?

[00:34:18] Original [00:34:20] plan. Right. Uh, how, how can, and I'm sure this is what you're, [00:34:25] you're talking to the, to the parents about is how do you respond to a [00:34:30] narcissistic 17-year-old in a way that's formative, they're clay-Like [00:34:35] how do you shape them in a way that's more in aligned with [00:34:40] that inner sense of development?

[00:34:42] That's happening within them that has been [00:34:45] short circuited in some way by trauma, loneliness, the difficulties of [00:34:50] life, whatever it is,

[00:34:51] Stephanie Winn: or just a lack of the right formative [00:34:55] experiences. I think especially with a lot of young people being impacted by the pandemic lockdowns. I mean, I [00:35:00] find it so hard to create a social life as I've been talking about throughout this conversation, [00:35:05] and I sympathize with young people because at least I had a social life when I was young.

[00:35:09] Pre [00:35:10] pandemic, pre. Smartphones, right? Pre uh, [00:35:15] this, at least this level of social media. So there can be that lack of [00:35:20] experience, but I think what you're talking about, it also takes emotional intelligence and [00:35:25] intimacy because it requires a degree of faith that you know something [00:35:30] about who that person is capable becoming.

[00:35:31] Right. When you talk about sort of the plan for the individual, it's not [00:35:35] just a universal plan of what's good for a human being [00:35:40] and what. Virtues, we wanna see everyone cultivate. But also that each one [00:35:45] of us has certain gifts. And I think that's part of what makes Haring [00:35:50] require that emotional intelligence and faith and intuition is, is that you have to have [00:35:55] some degree of insight into who that person is capable of becoming, not [00:36:00] just what you want them to become or what you thought they might become when they were little, but really what are those [00:36:05] seeds within them that are.

[00:36:06] Trying to sprout.

[00:36:07] Dean Abbott: Right. You know, you mentioned the [00:36:10] thing that I, I wanted to talk about formation and you mentioned the other thing I wanted to talk about, which is [00:36:15] virtue and that the difference between [00:36:20] pointless narcissistic rumination and a kind of self-examination that is healthy is [00:36:25] one leads to virtue and one does not.

[00:36:27] And so to take a little bit of issue with Dr. [00:36:30] Shedler, I think that to say. Psychology, [00:36:35] therapeutic enterprises or whatever are not fundamentally moral education, but rather trying to help [00:36:40] the, trying to allow the client to discover his own, I [00:36:45] guess, his own moral framework or something. The problem with that [00:36:50] is that we have literally thousands of years of literature.

[00:36:54] [00:36:55] Showing us what works in human life and what does not.

[00:36:57] Stephanie Winn: I agree.

[00:36:58] Dean Abbott: Right. Going all the way back to [00:37:00] Aristotle or before, uh, it's interesting. Hey, for Christmas I was given a [00:37:05] set of books and one of them was the DMA Pata, which is a collection of. 400 [00:37:10] sayings attributed to the Buddha. The Buddha was a wise, clearly a very wise person.

[00:37:14] [00:37:15] And if you did nothing but read the Buddha and think, well, hey, he seems to know what he's [00:37:20] talking about. And he tried to do some of the things that he suggests. Or you [00:37:25] raid Marcus Aurelius like I was talking about, or Aristotle or even oh, into the Middle [00:37:30] Ages. Someone like Bo Atheist, these people are all talking about how to live the [00:37:35] right kind of life.

[00:37:36] And I think to act as if we don't have [00:37:40] thousands of years of resources telling us what the right kind of human life is. [00:37:45] When we go into like a, a situation where we're working with people. Is in a way [00:37:50] kind of to abandon them and instead to say, all right, look, you [00:37:55] don't have to reinvent the wheel on your own.

[00:37:57] There is a real thing [00:38:00] called virtue, and it's part of what you can grow into. And the more you [00:38:05] pursue virtue, the more you will become the [00:38:10] best unique expression, the best expression of your unique self. So we don't have that in our [00:38:15] culture at all because we are. Cut off from all those sources [00:38:20] of wisdom telling us very clearly what the, what the good life looks like.

[00:38:24] Stephanie Winn: I [00:38:25] agree, and I think this is one of my kind of major complaints about what we [00:38:30] could call a liberal approach to psychotherapy, which is that it, it lacks a framework of [00:38:35] what we know is generally good for the human soul. There's kind [00:38:40] of this, anything goes. Philosophy and I saw someone, a, a [00:38:45] therapist post something I thought was quite wise on social media saying that the difference between a [00:38:50] less good therapist and a more expert therapist is less good therapist.

[00:38:54] [00:38:55] You're in the driver's seat, they're in the passenger seat, they have the map, they know where you're going, they tell you where [00:39:00] to turn, and they said a more skilled therapist sits in the backseat, looks out the [00:39:05] window, and says. Hmm. Interesting. You told me the last time [00:39:10] you drove down the street, you got beaten up.

[00:39:12] It's, I wonder why you're choosing to go [00:39:15] down the street again. The problem with that framework, as much as I agree halfway with [00:39:20] that comparison, the problem is that. In that [00:39:25] narrative. The only reason we know that that's not a healthy street for that person is because [00:39:30] they've personally been beaten up down that street before.

[00:39:32] What about the reality of [00:39:35] if a hundred other people had been also beaten up on that street? Just because that particular [00:39:40] person hasn't necessarily been down that street. You know, it's like, do we have to [00:39:45] reinvent the wheel with every single human being? I'm not saying that we have to apply [00:39:50] one rigid moral framework to all human beings in a way that doesn't allow for any [00:39:55] individuality, but at the same time, it kind of feels with a more liberal, [00:40:00] progressive approach to psychotherapy that every individual is in it.

[00:40:04] [00:40:05] To learn things from first principles themselves, that if we had a little bit [00:40:10] more openness to that wisdom of the past at which you could consider a more [00:40:15] conservative approach, not politically, but in the sense that we're preserving [00:40:20] what we know, what has already been built. You know, rather than questioning it [00:40:25] constantly, if, if we relied on the knowledge that what's true for other people [00:40:30] is probably true for me, we could actually.

[00:40:32] Potentially spare ourselves a lot of [00:40:35] pain. Like an example of that is if you take a person at any age [00:40:40] and ask them to imagine what they're gonna want at a different age in the future, [00:40:45] let's say 20 versus 60, ask your average 20-year-old. What are you gonna want when you're 60? I [00:40:50] think if you looked at the responses, you would find that what 20 year [00:40:55] olds imagine they're gonna want when they're 60 is closer to what they want when they're 20.[00:41:00]

[00:41:00] Than what they will actually want when they're 60, and that a better guess of what they're gonna want when they're [00:41:05] 60 would come from looking at what the average 60-year-old wants. [00:41:10] Your guess. You as an individual at 20, if you're planning your life at 60, are [00:41:15] probably going to make wiser decisions that you're going to be happier with if you base your [00:41:20] future planning off of what does the average person want at that time in life [00:41:25] compared to what I currently value and think that I want.

[00:41:28] And yet we [00:41:30] go about psychotherapy as if every 20-year-old can [00:41:35] imagine what they're gonna want, uh, based on their current [00:41:40] wants rather than like, you know, the human condition.

[00:41:43] Dean Abbott: I think you said something [00:41:45] very, you casually said something very important, which is that [00:41:50] if we can kind of come to see that what is true [00:41:55] for the vast majority of people is probably true for me.

[00:41:58] You said you were kind of referring [00:42:00] to that as a, a means of cultivating wisdom, but it, I would just point [00:42:05] out it's also a good way to combat loneliness and [00:42:10] that when you sort of come to see yourself as another [00:42:15] instantiation of kind of the human experience. You [00:42:20] suddenly realize, oh, any of these writers are thinkers that I, or, [00:42:25] or people from the past, they're not so different from me.

[00:42:29] It [00:42:30] places you inside a larger human narrative that I think does help at least [00:42:35] somewhat to resolve an existential loneliness than I think most people [00:42:40] feel in a, a liberal culture. A liberal in the sense that it is about [00:42:45] liberating one from the wisdom of the past. I think most people do feel an [00:42:50] existential loneliness, that if they were more familiar with the, [00:42:55] with the kind of the thinking of, of the past, they might feel less [00:43:00] existential loneliness.

[00:43:01] And just to close the loop on the thing about psychology [00:43:05] and moral education. I, I think that, yes. Well, I think what we're saying is that for a lot of, [00:43:10] um, therapeutic relationships too. To be successful, it really does [00:43:15] have to have some level of moral education or you're [00:43:20] kinda leaving help on the table that you could [00:43:25] offer to people who are suffering.

[00:43:26] Stephanie Winn: I'm trying to think of an example of that. 'cause I think I know what you're [00:43:30] talking about in the sense that if someone is behaving in a way that the average person would [00:43:35] consider immoral, like their behavior is hurtful to others, it's also [00:43:40] hurtful. To themselves. That's what I believe at least, that when we're [00:43:45] selfish, when we take lie, cheat, steal, that, that damages our soul and, and it's one of [00:43:50] the reasons that I'm able to guide parents lovingly into interventions [00:43:55] that they're hesitant to embrace, but that their kids' behavior calls for, because [00:44:00] it's sort of like.

[00:44:01] Taking away the toy when a kid isn't using that toy [00:44:05] properly. Right. Like, you know, you know, the rule is that toy is not to be used to hit [00:44:10] your brother with, and if you are using the toy to hit your brother, then we're taking away [00:44:15] the toy. 'cause that's not what it's for. And I think, you know, as much as you might do that when a kid [00:44:20] is five, there are, there are similar things when someone's 20 where.

[00:44:24] You know, [00:44:25] it's not just that they're harming others, but that this isn't good for, as you would [00:44:30] say, their formation.

[00:44:32] Dean Abbott: Let me give an an example. This just occurred to me. [00:44:35] Imagine 20-year-old guy. He's doing okay in life, like [00:44:40] he's got like a group of guy friends or whatever, but secretly [00:44:45] on his phone every day, he's like really into sports [00:44:50] betting.

[00:44:50] Okay. And let's say he's, he's [00:44:55] lost a lot of his like regular income from whatever job he has, and [00:45:00] he's made the foolish decision to take out a credit card so he can gamble there more. [00:45:05] Okay. That's a problem for that guy, and I don't think anyone would [00:45:10] deny that that's a problem. So the question then of [00:45:15] moral education is that we have to say, look, there's a virtue of.

[00:45:18] Self-control. There's a [00:45:20] virtue of stewardship. There's a virtue in, in being a [00:45:25] forward-looking person. The problem with trying to talk about moral [00:45:30] education is that people think that it stops at saying, Hey, don't gamble. Well, [00:45:35] sure not gambling. Would be the great thing for this [00:45:40] guy, but the problem of being a human being is that we can't just [00:45:45] stop.

[00:45:46] We have a very hard time not doing those things. No matter [00:45:50] how much we know they're a problem. And this is where [00:45:55] now we can do some structured self-examination [00:46:00] and we ask, what is that doing for you? Right. [00:46:05] Tell me more about. What's going on inside you [00:46:10] when you decide to do that? We ask much deeper questions [00:46:15] that help us to come to understand the core of this person [00:46:20] and what's being expressed in this action that is hurting him [00:46:25] and hurting others in a way or, or could potentially hurt others, could potentially drive [00:46:30] him to even more desperate and negative behavior.

[00:46:33] So it's not just a matter of saying, [00:46:35] Hey, gambling is bad. Don't do it. We really have to dig down and we, [00:46:40] and I think, help people like that to the degree that we can [00:46:45] do that kind of deep inner examination of themselves in [00:46:50] terms of what's going on here with you. And, and, and you were talking [00:46:55] about the therapist who says, Hey, turn here, or, or the one who says, [00:47:00] I noticed you've driven down this street.

[00:47:02] And I do think the, the, the one [00:47:05] who says, I noticed you chose to drove down this to drive down this street. That [00:47:10] probably is the better therapist, but it's easy to [00:47:15] confuse means and ends. And so with the guy who's addicted to [00:47:20] gambling, you know, we, let's say we say, oh, I, I noticed that. [00:47:25] You really spend a lot, you spend more money in the last six [00:47:30] months on your father's birthday than on any other day.

[00:47:34] Right. That's an [00:47:35] interesting thing to notice. Right. I'm curious about what's going on there. That is a [00:47:40] way of, that's a technique. But the, that's a means, but [00:47:45] the end, his growth in virtue, his growth in freedom, his [00:47:50] formation into more of the more of the person he's meant to be. And [00:47:55] so I think a lot of, when we talk about kind of standard psychological [00:48:00] approach is a confusion of means and ends.

[00:48:02] We think a lot of people tend to think [00:48:05] asking the better question or making the better observation is an end in itself, but it's actually [00:48:10] just a better means. For getting to the real end, which is positive [00:48:15] formation development and virtue freedom to be more of the person that you really [00:48:20] are. Those kinds of things.

[00:48:21] Stephanie Winn: You know, I don't want to straw man, Jonathan Shedler [00:48:25] and put words in his mouth that he didn't say, but I am [00:48:30] tempted to join you in making the case for why. Something. I [00:48:35] don't know if it, I don't know if moral education is exactly the right word for it, but [00:48:40] like the thing about healing or self-improvement or [00:48:45] behavior change or whatever the goal of psychotherapy might be is, you know, we [00:48:50] are moral creatures.

[00:48:51] Morality is part of what we [00:48:55] are, the cultivation of virtue. If that's not. Part of the process then, [00:49:00] like what are we doing? How can a person expect to feel whole, I guess if, [00:49:05] if they're not in a process of cultivating virtues? [00:49:10]

[00:49:10] Dean Abbott: Yes. So two things about that. First of all, when you were talk, giving the example of the therapist who says, [00:49:15] I know she drove down the street and the last time you mentioned the street, you told me you were beat up.[00:49:20]

[00:49:20] Okay. The only reason the therapist is even asking that question is because the therapist has a [00:49:25] deep internal sense that beating people up is wrong. Right? [00:49:30] Reality is inescapably moral. That's an easy thing for people to [00:49:35] deny, but even the story that you just told me. Is built on a moral [00:49:40] framework. 'cause a therapist is asking, in that situation, I wonder why you chose to drive down this [00:49:45] street where something immoral happened to you.

[00:49:48] So it's, it's, it's inevitable. What [00:49:50] you're saying is, you know, how do we ever make progress if we're not trying to be formed towards some [00:49:55] sort of virtue? That's what I was talking about at the beginning of our talk with the person [00:50:00] who is in a ruminative spiral where she's constantly looking for that thing in the [00:50:05] house.

[00:50:05] That's law. The person who's not engaged in that, you know, [00:50:10] deeply introspective and formative process [00:50:15] of virtue development result, it sort of resorts to kind of looking [00:50:20] in her house everywhere for this thing that she knows is lost, but she'll never find.

[00:50:23] Stephanie Winn: Help me with one more [00:50:25] little personal tip here, Dean.

[00:50:26] Okay. Because I'm, I'm really thinking like I'm, I'm applying our [00:50:30] conversation. To myself, and I'm thinking, you know, [00:50:35] generosity is such a core virtue for me and my husband. It was one of the [00:50:40] qualities that I noticed in him

[00:50:42] Dean Abbott: Mm.

[00:50:42] Stephanie Winn: That made me feel like we were aligned [00:50:45] and, and something I, I count on so deeply in him is that we're both generous and hospitable people.

[00:50:49] [00:50:50] So I know that generosity, hospitality, gregariousness, these are things that I [00:50:55] value that matter deeply to me in my character. And I don't wanna give them up, right? And so I'm [00:51:00] thinking like, if, if the problem that I'm looking to solve is that that [00:51:05] energy isn't coming back around to me when I need it, like what is the virtue that's [00:51:10] missing here?

[00:51:10] 'cause, 'cause those are the three virtues that. I'm saying are pretty strong [00:51:15] that I, I don't wanna give up here. I'm curious because you, you have this sort of [00:51:20] framework of having an external standard, right? And we're talking about the virtue. So is [00:51:25] it, is it just wisdom that sort of self-knowledge like we were talking about?

[00:51:28] Or is there another [00:51:30] virtue word that would be helpful for me to hang onto here?

[00:51:32] Dean Abbott: If you were coming to me as a coaching client, [00:51:35] I would wanna ask you. And I don't pretend to have the answer. I would [00:51:40] wanna ask you about how honest you

[00:51:41] are

[00:51:42] about your needs and how courageous you are [00:51:45] about just telling people what you need.

[00:51:46] So we would maybe talk, frame it in terms of [00:51:50] honesty and are you willing to say, Hey, this isn't working for me and I need something back. Do you have the [00:51:55] courage to do that? I don't know, but those are a couple of them, A couple of virtues that might [00:52:00] apply. Or even just to go to people and say, Hey, here's what I need from you.

[00:52:04] Stephanie Winn: [00:52:05] Yeah, yeah. No, it's a fair point. I mean, I think long-term listeners will be like Stephanie Wyn. [00:52:10] She's so honest and courageous, but about things that are bigger than myself, you know? But when it comes [00:52:15] to me, when it comes to me. That's a tough one. Absolutely. And I've been practicing that lately, [00:52:20] but it's been really hard 'cause I've just had to cut people off.

[00:52:22] I've just had to be like, I've known you two years. [00:52:25] I've invited you to like 10 things. You've never invited me to anything. I need my friends right now. Clearly you're not [00:52:30] interested in being a friend, you know?

[00:52:31] Dean Abbott: Right, right. Sure. And I think being honest about [00:52:35] that is. I think that's what part of what makes you a trustworthy person, if you're willing to be [00:52:40] honest about that.

[00:52:40] And I will say too, that, you know, virtues, they kind of [00:52:45] apply differently in some ways at a macro level versus a micro level, right? So one [00:52:50] thing to maybe be courageous about a political issue, it's another. To have the [00:52:55] courage to risk real personal relationships because they aren't working in some way.

[00:52:59] Stephanie Winn: [00:53:00] Yeah, yeah, that's, that's a good point. Not good at being vulnerable in personal relationships. Well, [00:53:05] tell us a little bit about, I know we have to wrap up soon, so I want you to, you know, have an opportunity to share what [00:53:10] it is that you do. 'cause in a moment I'll ask where people can find you. And I know that you do coaching [00:53:15] and that you have the title chaplain, so I'm curious where, where and how does [00:53:20] that work show up?

[00:53:20] Dean Abbott: Well, I do lots of coaching with. People who find [00:53:25] me online, I have been in. Kind of a [00:53:30] struggle the last few days because about 12 days ago, my Twitter account was hacked.

[00:53:34] Stephanie Winn: The [00:53:35] podcast scheme, right?

[00:53:36] Dean Abbott: Yeah. It's crypto. Crypto, I think.

[00:53:39] Stephanie Winn: Was it the [00:53:40] one, sorry? Was it the one where they DM you saying, vote for me in this podcast?

[00:53:43] Competition or co-hosting. [00:53:45]

[00:53:45] Dean Abbott: I don't know, maybe that sounds strangely familiar, but, uh, whatever's happening is that [00:53:50] someone who is not me is currently using my Twitter account to [00:53:55] scam people into buying crypto of some sort.

[00:53:58] Stephanie Winn: Oh, no. Even still you're still [00:54:00] locked out.

[00:54:00] Dean Abbott: Yeah. 12 days now.

[00:54:02] Stephanie Winn: Oh, yikes. So when I was just DMing you about our [00:54:05] technical issues, that was not you.

[00:54:07] Good thing you texted me instead.

[00:54:09] Dean Abbott: Right. [00:54:10] So sometimes I'm available there, and I, I have tended to get a lot of clients [00:54:15] through Twitter recently. That's kind of changed a lot. Well, not a lot, but begun to change [00:54:20] as I have sort of, people have found me in other ways. I've taken, taken a lot of [00:54:25] referrals from other coaches and, and, and that kind of thing lately.

[00:54:28] So I do a lot of that. I'm

[00:54:29] [00:54:30] also a writer. I'm kind of moving toward trying to get more [00:54:35] involved in the writing part of my life.

[00:54:36] The chaplaincy work is sort something that's still in [00:54:40] development as a, for a long time I've been ordained as a community chaplain, but [00:54:45] that's a different thing from being a clinical chaplain like you might encounter in a hospital or jail or [00:54:50] something.

[00:54:50] There's very specific training that is required to do that. And I've just finished one [00:54:55] course of that and that's something I'm interested in looking into too, is um, [00:55:00] you know, I guess what you would say is that vocationally, I'm just very interested in. [00:55:05] Where in the world do I have the opportunity to [00:55:10] bring some comfort, some light, [00:55:15] some aid to people who are in need?

[00:55:19] You know, I [00:55:20] have a particular set of gifts that kind of lend themselves to [00:55:25] particular manifestations of that mission. [00:55:30] If I were, I don't know, a really good baker or was really good at. [00:55:35] Technical things, those manifestations would look different, but I, I'm not either [00:55:40] of those and so I am just looking for that, uh, those [00:55:45] opportunities.

[00:55:45] It's part of my own formation. It's part of my own growth toward virtue [00:55:50] to, to constantly sort of be asking myself that question. So people could [00:55:55] typically have found me on Twitter at Dean Abbott, and maybe they will be someday [00:56:00] in the future, able to do that. But, uh, now I would suggest not doing [00:56:05] that and definitely not buying any crypto from me.

[00:56:08] Instead, uh, I [00:56:10] can be found@deanabbott.com. That is my website and my. [00:56:15] Substack. So there's lots of things I've written there that you could read. And also there's a [00:56:20] services tab that explains lots more about my coaching and how I work and what kind of [00:56:25] services I offer. And also I, I work some with a coaching [00:56:30] consortium called A Life Design.

[00:56:32] And you could find out about me there, life [00:56:35] design.org/dean. Well,

[00:56:38] Stephanie Winn: Dean Abbott, thank you so much. It's been [00:56:40] a pleasure speaking with you. I'm glad I finally got to know you a little bit.

[00:56:43] Dean Abbott: Yes, thank you so much.

[00:56:44] Stephanie Winn: [00:56:45] Alright, it's been a pleasure.

[00:56:46] Dean Abbott: Bye-bye.

[00:56:47] Stephanie Winn: Thank you for listening too. You [00:56:50] must be some kind of therapist.

[00:56:52] If you enjoyed this episode, kindly take a [00:56:55] moment to rate, review, share or comment on it using your platform of choice. [00:57:00] And of course, please remember, podcasts are not therapy and I'm not [00:57:05] your therapist and. Special thanks to Joey Rero for this awesome [00:57:10] theme song, half Awake and to Pods by Nick for production.

[00:57:14] For [00:57:15] help navigating the impact of the gender craze on your family, be sure to check out my [00:57:20] program for parents. ROGD Repair. [00:57:25] Any resource you heard mentioned on this show plus how to get in touch with me can all be [00:57:30] found in the notes and links below Rain or shine. I hope you will [00:57:35] step outside to breathe the air today in the words of Max Airman.[00:57:40]

[00:57:40] With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful [00:57:45] [00:57:50] [00:57:55] [00:58:00] [00:58:05] [00:58:10] [00:58:15] [00:58:20] world.