You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist

[00:00:00] Ryan: As a man, what I struggle with is being a man in society, having feelings, [00:00:05] having aggressive impulses, having sexual impulses. For the last 10 years of my life, I've told that if I [00:00:10] look in any direction, that is not like straight ahead or straight down. I've done something pretty bad. I could make [00:00:15] people feel uncomfortable and I feel the impact on this.

[00:00:17] Ryan: You know, when I go to the gym and I go into a room and there's just me and another [00:00:20] woman, I'm gonna go into the corner. I'm gonna face away 'cause I don't want to cause [00:00:25] damage to someone. That's the message I have internalized and I have felt this pretty profoundly when I'm in [00:00:30] a meeting with colleagues and I'm often like, don't talk, don't take up space, don't do this.

[00:00:34] Ryan: And so [00:00:35] I've been told by society my responsibility. I've taken these in, but I've taken it in to say I need to [00:00:40] change who I am to conform to FIPs. If I don't, the message is kind of, everyone hates you. [00:00:45]

[00:00:45] SKOT: You must be some kind of therapist[00:00:50]

[00:00:51] Stephanie: today. My guest is Ryan Malice. He's a licensed [00:00:55] clinical social worker, a therapist in private practice in Maryland and Connecticut. He [00:01:00] works with adolescents and adults, and you could say he's specializes in the issues [00:01:05] facing boys and men. So I'm excited to dive into his experience [00:01:10] today. Ryan, welcome to the show.

[00:01:11] Ryan: Well, thank you ab for so much for having me on. Excited to talk.

[00:01:14] Stephanie: We threw this [00:01:15] together super last minute. Uh, we follow each other on X and [00:01:20] I was so grateful that you were able to show up and have a spontaneous conversation today. I

[00:01:24] Ryan: appreciate [00:01:25] the opportunities to talk. It's, I just want to hear about people's ideas.

[00:01:28] Ryan: Like I've followed you for a while. I know some of them, [00:01:30] but just to hear more about what other clinicians are doing in the field is always something that I really enjoy.

[00:01:33] Stephanie: So you [00:01:35] worked in schools and, uh, social emotional learning [00:01:40] before you became a therapist in private practice?

[00:01:41] Ryan: Yes. So I was, I have a master's in social work [00:01:45] and part of that is a, um, internship program.

[00:01:47] Ryan: And I just happened. I didn't get into the internship I [00:01:50] wanted to and got placed into school. This is my story for what I went there. I had no idea what I was doing. Like all of [00:01:55] us when we're interns and I walked down the hallway and there's a fourth grader lying on the floor. [00:02:00] Having a full blown tantrum.

[00:02:01] Ryan: And I walked past him and I don't know what I'm doing. So I'm like, are you okay? And he looks at me, [00:02:05] stops tantrum, and he looks at me and he goes, shut up bitch. I'm gonna play balls tennis with your balls. And [00:02:10] I just walk into my office and start hysterically laughing. And, and part of me just [00:02:15] knew that, oh, this is the right spot for me.

[00:02:16] Ryan: Um, I can handle this, I [00:02:20] get it. But it's like, who the hell am I talking to this kid on the floor? Like he doesn't know who I am. I'm like, I'm like, [00:02:25] fair enough, fair enough. That was funny. Um, and fair enough. So I went there and [00:02:30] I just loved it. I had never worked with kids. I was the youngest in my family and just, I [00:02:35] found kids, um, just to be awesome.

[00:02:36] Ryan: They're fascinating. They just often want someone to talk to. [00:02:40] So I worked in these environments and these were what are called level five schools. So these are students with severe [00:02:45] emotion, social, emotional, behavioral issues. There are physical restraints, there's a lot of stuff going on. [00:02:50] Um, and there's a lot of challenges there.

[00:02:51] Ryan: So I just found myself there and, and I just didn't leave for [00:02:55] about 15 years. Um. And found that it was just such a valuable place [00:03:00] to, to kinda work with kids and it, and special education. If you know anything about it, it's about 90% [00:03:05] boys. So I think this kind of led me to then, you know, I worked with so many young [00:03:10] boys and then now kind of working more and transitioning to the adults there, seeing a lot of the problems that I saw as [00:03:15] children, but now I'm just seeing them as adults.

[00:03:18] Stephanie: That's just such a, a [00:03:20] great spirit to have about that kid's attitude. I can see another person [00:03:25] crumbling in that situation.

[00:03:26] Ryan: Yeah, and that was unfortunately one of the challenges I found in the schools [00:03:30] is so much of the work with kids is how do we regulate ourselves in the face of something [00:03:35] like that.

[00:03:35] Ryan: Whether, you know, often aggression in these places for a lot of young boys is. [00:03:40] When often a child is aggressive towards us, I think the natural tendency is to get aggressive back to assert [00:03:45] control over the situation. I'm bigger, I'm stronger, I have the authority in the situation. And you see it all the time.

[00:03:49] Ryan: You get into power [00:03:50] struggles with kids and it just never worked out well and always I have found, whether it is [00:03:55] working with kids or adults, is that if I get understand why something is happening, it always makes sense to me. It's like, oh, he [00:04:00] is mad at me and I'm like, oh, I get it. He's not really mad at me, but I happen to be the avatar of authority that's [00:04:05] standing in front of them, impeding them from what they want.

[00:04:07] Ryan: Again, fair enough that they're upset. Part of [00:04:10] my job is to manage and deal with that, but it's very hard in these environments where, to be honest, you know, [00:04:15] a lot of the staff there are getting paid $30,000 a year. They're not trained. This, I [00:04:20] can tell you all kinds of stories about like, you don't have to have a degree in anything to be a special educator in Maryland.

[00:04:24] Ryan: [00:04:25] You can have a bachelor's in anything and be a teacher in the classroom the next day, um, and have a two year provisional [00:04:30] license to teach the hardest kids in.

[00:04:32] Stephanie: When you described that tendency to [00:04:35] wanna take control of the situation, it reminded me of some of the conversations I've had with my coaching clients [00:04:40] when they have oppositional strong-willed children, especially, uh, children who [00:04:45] have what I would call lopsided development, where, you know, the kid might be eight years old, but a part of them is [00:04:50] 15 and a part of them as three developmentally.

[00:04:53] Stephanie: Um, you know, those kids and, [00:04:55] and the ones who have to understand everything their own way, they can't just take it on your word, [00:05:00] they, it has to make sense to them. When we're dealing with these kids, I've, I've seen [00:05:05] that dynamic even just through the parent report of the kid tries to take control and then the parent [00:05:10] ties to take control and it just keeps escalating.

[00:05:12] Stephanie: And so you recognize how counterproductive [00:05:15] that can be. What do you think can help in those moments instead whether, [00:05:20] whether you're a parent, an educator, what does that kid really need?

[00:05:24] Ryan: This is [00:05:25] what I would always say when I would try to work with staff with these kids, is that I would try to interpret [00:05:30] their, with their language, their aggression, whatever it is.

[00:05:32] Ryan: I'm interpreting this as a foreign language. I need to [00:05:35] understand what is being communicated to me. Um, you have a kid, whether they [00:05:40] are, you know, maybe they didn't sleep the last night and they're tired and they don't wanna do the math homework, so [00:05:45] they're, they're yelling at you. I'm not gonna do the math work.

[00:05:46] Ryan: I'm gonna throw it up, throw it in the garbage, I'm gonna ball it up. I'm gonna curse you out. [00:05:50] What's going on? There's, there's always a reason for these things to be occurring. And so often what we're [00:05:55] trying to do is diminish an emotion, whether that's getting rid of it, trying to change it [00:06:00] into something else, rather than asking the question first of what is even happening in the room.

[00:06:03] Ryan: So what I'm always trying to do [00:06:05] first, whether it is in counseling or even with the kids or just what's happening, that's totally gonna determine my intervention, [00:06:10] is if there's a need to be filled and you just need a cup of water. I can just get you a cup of water and [00:06:15] we don't have to have a two hour power, power struggle, or if there's something deeper going on, we can have the conversation about [00:06:20] it.

[00:06:20] Ryan: So, so much of me is, is doing proper assessment of what's going on and not allowing our like [00:06:25] automatic emotional process to just take over. And then, you know, it kind of just starts that ball rolling of these [00:06:30] power struggles. So it's taking moment stopping and be like, I don't know why they're doing this.

[00:06:33] Ryan: And if I say that [00:06:35] to myself, I need to find more information. It's kind of a cue for me.

[00:06:38] Stephanie: Analyzing the [00:06:40] behavior. Yes. Figuring out what it could mean.

[00:06:42] Ryan: Well, in schools you learn very much. To see [00:06:45] behavioral, in a functional sense is what is the purpose of this behavior. It's usually is to avoid something, [00:06:50] to get something, to get attention, whatever it may be.

[00:06:53] Ryan: You're asking that question constantly is it's, [00:06:55] they're getting something outta this and, but often you can give kids what they want and it's, it's amazing. You can give kids who want and [00:07:00] would work for you as well. And so trying to figure out, can I provide a win-win situation? This kid gets what they want, whether [00:07:05] it's, you know, a cup of water or they want to save face in front of their peers.

[00:07:09] Ryan: Maybe I can give this [00:07:10] to them in way that doesn't actually hurt me in a way as well. So trying to figure out can I create kind of win-win [00:07:15] situations where rules are followed and you get your emotional needs satisfied.

[00:07:19] Stephanie: [00:07:20] Seems like part of the trick there is that we don't wanna reward bad behavior, but [00:07:25] we do want to show kids that there, that their needs can be [00:07:30] met.

[00:07:30] Ryan: Yeah, and there's an interesting thing with like this idea of rewarding bad behavior. You hear it all the time in [00:07:35] schools, in these types of schools I worked in where we're using behavioral modification programs and so we are. [00:07:40] Actively rewarding some behaviors and you're providing punishment or consequences to other behaviors [00:07:45] and trying to figure out, all right, how do we do this?

[00:07:47] Ryan: And make sure that we're reinforcing the things that we wanna [00:07:50] reinforce and we're making sure that we're giving fair and appropriate consequences in doing this. [00:07:55] And so often it was, are we punishing someone that is angry or are we punishing someone 'cause they threw something [00:08:00] across the room? Those two things are very different to me being angry.

[00:08:02] Ryan: I don't think we should punish you for necessarily. It's the action that that [00:08:05] anger does then, okay, is there a consequence for this? And so trying to figure out a [00:08:10] staff one is, are we using the appropriate intervention? Then two, what type of intervention are you using? Are we [00:08:15] punishing someone out of as I often saw a kind of vindictiveness 'cause, oh, this kid got one over on me, [00:08:20] or I lost control of the classroom.

[00:08:21] Ryan: Or am I trying to instill and really teach them something? And that's a lot [00:08:25] harder, I think, is to do what do I think maybe what is the student needs to hear right now? And [00:08:30] hold a firm boundary and say it's okay if you're upset. I'm gonna do this 'cause this is what I think is gonna be [00:08:35] useful for you in this moment, rather than what is gonna bring the tension down in this moment.

[00:08:39] Stephanie: There's also [00:08:40] an art to being able to recognize what the most natural consequence [00:08:45] of something would be like. I feel like when there's that sort of tip for tat power, struggle, escalation, [00:08:50] it can start to feel quite arbitrary. Yes. And on some level, if the kid can sense that, [00:08:55] like if the kid can sense you are just trying to take away something 'cause you're mad at me, they're, they're gonna [00:09:00] project onto you the same level of maturity that, that they [00:09:05] have.

[00:09:05] Stephanie: Right? Like this is just a power struggle. Yeah. Whereas in the moment to [00:09:10] collect yourself and think through what is [00:09:15] the natural consequence of this action. In other words, if you're spending time in a [00:09:20] way that's not how I wanted you to be spending this time, that does mean that [00:09:25] later on when you wanna spend time on this other thing, unfortunately we don't have time for that because we chose to [00:09:30] make different choices with our time earlier.

[00:09:32] Ryan: It's very, we would always break it down into three things. So like, [00:09:35] natural consequences, logical consequences, imp punitive consequences. And natural is just, if you're running [00:09:40] outside and you skin your knee, no one did anything. It just happened to you. And those are the best. Um, I think we, you do a [00:09:45] huge disservice yelling at kids not to run.

[00:09:47] Ryan: They will learn, they'll figure it out. Um, and they'll [00:09:50] be okay. And we end up having this very fraught relationships. I'm [00:09:55] screaming at you to put your coat on or stop running and it's just everyone's gonna be okay. [00:10:00] Um, and allowing natural consequences to take course is really effective for people. Then you get to logical, [00:10:05] it's kind of what you're talking about.

[00:10:05] Ryan: It's like, I wanna pair the consequence to the behavior. So I want it to make sense. If you're on [00:10:10] your phone in class, okay, I'll take your phone. Like it makes sense you are utilizing this thing. And then [00:10:15] what? The next one is punitive, which is I think what we all end up leaning into, which is just, you did something bad, so I'm gonna hurt [00:10:20] you.

[00:10:20] Ryan: Um, and so I'm gonna make you remember, and this is, you know, it's based out of behavioral modification. [00:10:25] We know that if it, we introduce a punishment, a behavior is less likely to occur. [00:10:30] One of the challenges I think for with parents and in schools is, well, there's a lot more detail to this. [00:10:35] It's not just you punish someone and they stop the behavior.

[00:10:37] Ryan: It's how close to the behavior was it? Did you communicate [00:10:40] that? Which behavior were you punishing them for? Is all of this clear to them? And did I, [00:10:45] how did I do this? And how, like what, how did I enact this consequence more so than like, what was the [00:10:50] consequences? How did I engage with you about this? Did I explain to you I'm [00:10:55] doing this thing, Hey, if you do this one more time, I'm going to do this thing.

[00:10:57] Ryan: Or am I yelling at you and screaming at you and [00:11:00] calling you stupid and saying, I'm gonna take away your tv. Um, and they look, they may be the same consequence [00:11:05] of a TV being taken, but so much of it is the actual interaction between two people and how something is [00:11:10] done. I would argue maybe even more than the consequence itself.

[00:11:13] Stephanie: You seem like. Such a [00:11:15] natural fit for the work in schools, uh, but you're now in private practice. How [00:11:20] much of what you learn in the schools shows up in your private work?

[00:11:22] Ryan: Well, I would say a lot of the [00:11:25] basic lessons of this, and I think one of my basic lessons in schools is just [00:11:30] listen to people and they'll tell you what they need.

[00:11:31] Ryan: Um, and kids will share with you what they need. [00:11:35] Um, it may not be the most articulate, it may not be in the language that you want to hear, but [00:11:40] people will tell you what they need. Um, and I have taken that and now into psychotherapy. And [00:11:45] my job is not to tell anyone how to live their life and not to give them advice.

[00:11:47] Ryan: It is to help them hear [00:11:50] from themselves, what do they need in this time? And often people will just tell you, um, [00:11:55] what are the problems they have in their life, uh, the guilt that they're dealing with. The shame. I know we we're, we're talking about [00:12:00] men. A lot of issues with men is shame around. Anger is something I see.

[00:12:04] Ryan: Kind of [00:12:05] all day, every day. Um, and being able to see, you know, I worked with young kids. It's, it's [00:12:10] just in them. It's just there. It's an is. It's not, not, it's just a thing that [00:12:15] is there for men. And what do we do about it? Is really my question. As opposed to this, so often [00:12:20] I'm seeing men spend hours every day beating themself up.

[00:12:23] Ryan: Should I have this, should I not [00:12:25] have this? Was this the appropriate amount of thing? Rather than asking, what is it telling me? What is, what is this telling me [00:12:30] about the world around me? And how can IU maybe even utilize this to get the things that I do want in life? [00:12:35]

[00:12:35] Stephanie: Let's dive into that. Uh, before we started recording, I was telling you what I do, and so [00:12:40] longtime listeners are well familiar with this, but essentially in the time that I've run this [00:12:45] podcast, my career has transformed from therapist to [00:12:50] therapist with a podcast to.

[00:12:53] Stephanie: Expert on gender [00:12:55] matters, one of a handful of mental health professionals in the world that's willing to speak out against it. [00:13:00] And, and so I developed this niche where I coach parents around the world who [00:13:05] have, uh, young people in their lives that they love, who are confused about gender. [00:13:10] And that's all I do outside of this podcast.

[00:13:12] Stephanie: So I have my course ROGD repair, and I [00:13:15] have my one-on-one coaching as well as the repair bot, uh, AI that I developed. [00:13:20] And in that work I work with a lot of parents of young men who I see [00:13:25] having aggression issues, but it's taking the form of [00:13:30] denial about their biological reality. There's a sense that they can hide [00:13:35] out in a female identity.

[00:13:37] Stephanie: And so these young men will say things like, I don't wanna be [00:13:40] seen as male, just as the girls will say, I don't wanna be seen as female. And so one of the exercises [00:13:45] it'll sometimes do with these parents is actually make a mind map. What are the [00:13:50] associations that this kid might have unconsciously with what that word means?

[00:13:54] Stephanie: The word male, [00:13:55] the word man, for example. Uh, when they say, I don't wanna be seen this way, what are they really [00:14:00] saying? I don't wanna be seen as aggressive. I don't wanna be seen as threatening. [00:14:05] Right? These are some of the associations they have with it. So I get this unique vantage point [00:14:10] with the boys who are using the, the alter [00:14:15] ego identity they've constructed as a way of running and hiding from something that they're scared of and [00:14:20] ashamed of in themselves.

[00:14:21] Stephanie: Something they don't want other people to see. But I think a lot [00:14:25] about what about the young men? The young men for whom that is not their [00:14:30] coping mechanism? And I think that's where you have a perspective on, [00:14:35] you know, all the other young men out there who also are grappling with. [00:14:40] Aggression, sexuality, ambition, drive, everything that comes with [00:14:45] becoming a young man.

[00:14:45] Ryan: I've seen this pop up at primarily in one domain, which is in [00:14:50] relationships. Um, and it's generally heterosexual relationships, and it is a struggle [00:14:55] to assert themselves in a relationship. So this shows up as an inability to use [00:15:00] aggression to essentially divide yourself from the other person you're in a relationship with.[00:15:05]

[00:15:05] Ryan: And there's often, as I, I love the question you ask of like, what, what do you mean by that? I ask this all the [00:15:10] time of like, I don't, you know, I don't wanna be a manm. What, what do you mean by that? Because I know what I mean by this, but [00:15:15] I, I wanna know what you understand this to be. And often you hear things that are like, oh, wow, you have [00:15:20] interpreted or heard, or, you know, somehow gotten all of the most negative, horrible [00:15:25] stereotypes of men.

[00:15:26] Ryan: And of course you wouldn't wanna be that. No one would wanna be that [00:15:30] thing, like this monstrous, destructive, horrible thing. And it's so useful to be like, oh, [00:15:35] okay. Now I understand, okay, this is why you would want to do this and make, you know, [00:15:40] but you're describing to me is, is kind of a new idea to me. I'm like, oh, that makes sense.

[00:15:42] Ryan: Well, yeah, if I associate all of these bad things with this. [00:15:45] Wouldn't I adopt something that doesn't have any of this, or I can hide this [00:15:50] aspect that I don't wanna show anyone. It makes sense to me.

[00:15:51] Stephanie: And so what about the young men that you see before [00:15:55] we start recording? You mentioned look smacking. Yes.

[00:15:58] Stephanie: And we were, we were [00:16:00] commiserating over being close in age. And you know, I was telling you that I often see myself as a [00:16:05] bridge, as an elder, millennial. I'm a bridge between the, the people younger than me and [00:16:10] their parents who are older than me. I'm sort of helping each world understand the other. Looks, [00:16:15] maxing is one of these trends that falls outside of my domain.

[00:16:19] Stephanie: 'cause I know the [00:16:20] lingo about, you know, I, I'm, sometimes I'm the one to break it to parents that their boys [00:16:25] are watching this thing called Sissy Hypnosis pornography. Okay. And I'm the one to break it to [00:16:30] them that, you know, anime and Roblox and Ikea sharks are [00:16:35] all part of the trans culture that they didn't know about.

[00:16:39] Stephanie: Like, I'm in [00:16:40] that role explaining culture. Okay. But I've heard about this looks maxing. I've heard [00:16:45] that for young men, again, outside of my specialty, that, [00:16:50] you know, it's almost like whatever that force is that has been preying on [00:16:55] girls forever to make them concerned about their body image and buy more stuff.[00:17:00]

[00:17:00] Stephanie: It's finding a new market in boys. It's, it's telling boys they need to have [00:17:05] more powerful jaws and. What, what all is going on with the, [00:17:10] the looks maxing thing.

[00:17:11] Ryan: I'll give my take on what's going on. And I think that, like, looks maxing is [00:17:15] like, I, I was telling with you I love words, I love new language and slaying and lingo.

[00:17:19] Ryan: [00:17:20] It's fascinating to me. So I love like the maxing just adding max to end the end of anything. I [00:17:25] think it's hilarious and I love it.

[00:17:26] Stephanie: Oh, I've been saying lately, like we're cheese maxing.

[00:17:29] Ryan: Yeah, it's [00:17:30] great. It's fun. Like I, I don't know. There's, there's, I, I love it. The idea, like the looks maxing [00:17:35] thing to me is just like a bigger, it's, it's a small little piece of a bigger issue, which is I was like, I'm [00:17:40] sure you're familiar with the red pill and like community of men like that, which, you know, I watched, I remember [00:17:45] watching a lot of this when it was first coming up and I'm like, oh, there's some interesting things that are being said here, and they're addressing issues that [00:17:50] are just going totally unaddressed anywhere else in the world.

[00:17:53] Ryan: Um, and to me, I was like, oh, [00:17:55] well that's why these people are garnering attention. This is what they're, they're the only people that are willing to [00:18:00] speak to male aggression and male sexuality in a way that. Made sense to me. I'm like, oh, I, I, I know [00:18:05] those feelings. I know those thoughts. Now I have a big gripe, I think, with these communities as well, which is, I don't [00:18:10] think you're fostering healthy relationships.

[00:18:11] Ryan: I think you're fostering how to attract women, which again, if you [00:18:15] want to attract women for just like sexual purposes, sky's probably have some really good advice. [00:18:20] I'm being totally honest, like I, I don't really have an issue with that, but it's often sold as this is how to [00:18:25] feel good as a man. How to feel masculine in, in any kind of, [00:18:30] I hate to say this, but in an adult way, it feels like, to me it feels like often the, the red pill community is people that are about [00:18:35] 13 years old.

[00:18:36] Ryan: Talking how I was talking when I was 13, I was like, how many chicks can I sleep with? [00:18:40] How hot are they? And as an an adult who's a 39-year-old man with two kids, I've realized [00:18:45] I don't care about any of that. Like, that's, it's like not on the top of my mind. And I, I'm a sexual being and [00:18:50] those things are important, but.

[00:18:51] Ryan: There's other things like having kids and being responsible and having a [00:18:55] career and bringing back to the community that helped you out actually are a lot more important than, [00:19:00] how do I maximize my wealth so I can attract as many women as I possibly can. And so it's not [00:19:05] that they're wrong, it's just they're not telling the whole truth, I think is my, my issue with it.

[00:19:08] Stephanie: It seems like these are young [00:19:10] men who haven't learned the downside of going around [00:19:15] breaking women's hearts.

[00:19:16] Ryan: And I would argue the downside of themselves and, and not even for the [00:19:20] women, just the, you know, soft in these, you look at all the, the majority of the people in [00:19:25] this, none of them are in healthy relationships.

[00:19:27] Ryan: They're not in long term stable [00:19:30] things, that they're not creating a family or something. That is, again, to me is, what else am I doing [00:19:35] here? Like, what, what else is the purpose of kind of being around if I'm not gonna establish or create something [00:19:40] and that takes a toll on these people, it's, you know, it's, wait, you know, if I get a [00:19:45] message from someone, and this happens in therapy as well, is that I get a message that, hey, this is what you need to do.

[00:19:49] Ryan: And [00:19:50] life will be good if you just follow my, you know, 10 step course. And it doesn't work out that [00:19:55] way. 'cause not everyone is, wants the same things as you are. What are, are you again, what are [00:20:00] you actually selling here? Are you selling a, you know, fantasy of just feeling great and powerful all the [00:20:05] time? Or are you telling the truth?

[00:20:07] Ryan: Which is, you know, if you wanna attract women, there's a subset of women that you [00:20:10] can engage in this way and you will attract them and they're, that exists. But let's make sure that that's what you want to [00:20:15] do. Rather than, Hey, I'm feeling really sad and isolated and alone and I want connection. These players [00:20:20] probably are not the right guys that you wanna be talking to.

[00:20:22] Stephanie: It seems to me like [00:20:25] the, uh, sort of subset of the population that we're [00:20:30] starting to talk about is in some ways the other side of the coin of [00:20:35] what I see, like the, the two reinforce each other, [00:20:40] right? Because I see the young people who are. Running from the [00:20:45] reality of their sexed bodies and the gender roles associated with that [00:20:50] even, and oftentimes including, um, people who were very gender [00:20:55] typical before they fell into this.

[00:20:57] Stephanie: You know, I'm, I'm really involved in the gender critical [00:21:00] community online, and one of, one of the things that I'm most annoyed about that's a, a [00:21:05] common trope in that community, I think is untrue, is the idea that everyone who falls [00:21:10] into a trans identity is so, as they say, gender non-conforming. [00:21:15] I, I see so many normal young men and women falling into this [00:21:20] due to one vulnerability or another.

[00:21:21] Stephanie: I see boys who were typical girls who were typical for their [00:21:25] sex before something happened in their lives where this [00:21:30] became an, an internet addiction, a socially mediated. [00:21:35] Um, contagion and, and the apparent solution to their problems. [00:21:40] Um, so it seems like for young men there are these two [00:21:45] paths. Not, I mean, not to oversimplify, 'cause I think whenever you say there's only two of anything, it's an [00:21:50] oversimplification.

[00:21:50] Stephanie: But, but you know that, let's say there, there are these two extremes where [00:21:55] there are people who are just completely rejecting nature's limits, [00:22:00] and then there's this like, hyper-masculine online [00:22:05] culture that encourages boys and men to do these things, like looks maxing. I mean, can you [00:22:10] tell us what, what you know about that segment of the internet and how it's [00:22:15] influencing young men's lives?

[00:22:16] Ryan: I, so I'm not, like, I would say I'm, I'm not an expert on looks acting, but like I [00:22:20] know it gets to the extremity of suggesting I'm doing like methamphetamines to lose [00:22:25] weight. Um, hitting your face with a hammer to reshaped bones. Like these are things I've heard of. [00:22:30] Um, and. Again, I'm always thinking there's a real problem here.

[00:22:33] Ryan: Like people are [00:22:35] searching for solutions and I, I think I have a lot of criticism, I think for the mental health field that I [00:22:40] think we have not provided an alternative solution to this. I think the, i what therapy has [00:22:45] been at least presented socially and outwardly to be, has not been something that people have found very helpful.

[00:22:49] Ryan: A lot of [00:22:50] people have a lot of issues with it. I think there's a lot, not a lot of clear communication. So, well, if I have a problem and well, I've tried [00:22:55] therapy and it didn't work, um, all the other advice I've engaged is like, well here's are these other people [00:23:00] that have some ideas, why would I not go and talk to them?

[00:23:03] Ryan: So I'm always saying like, yeah, I think [00:23:05] there's a legitimate and very real problem in here, but let's [00:23:10] be clear on what the actual issue is. Um, is it loneliness? Is it lack of connection? Is it [00:23:15] social awkwardness? Is it inability to regulate your emotions? And often these things are being sold as like [00:23:20] a, you have a problem?

[00:23:21] Ryan: Well, this is a solution to your problem. And who wouldn't want to take that if you're suffering? And I think a lot [00:23:25] of people are right now.

[00:23:26] Stephanie: What do you think are the most common issues that young men are struggling with? [00:23:30]

[00:23:30] Ryan: The first thing that came to the top of my head, I would say just personal, um, is, you know, as, as a man, [00:23:35] what I struggle with is, I guess being a man in society, having [00:23:40] feelings, um, having aggressive impulses, having sexual impulses.

[00:23:44] Ryan: Um, and you [00:23:45] know, for the last 10 years of my life, you know, I've told that if I look in, in any direction, that is not [00:23:50] like straight ahead or straight down. I've done something pretty bad. I could make people feel uncomfortable. And I feel [00:23:55] the impact on this. You know, when I go to the gym and I go into a room and there's just me and another woman, I'm gonna [00:24:00] go into the corner.

[00:24:01] Ryan: I'm gonna face away. 'cause I don't want to cause damage to someone. [00:24:05] That's what, that's the message I have internalized and I have felt this pretty profoundly when I'm [00:24:10] in a meeting with colleagues. I'm a, I'm a talkative person. I have, I wanna share my ideas, [00:24:15] but I'm often like, don't talk, don't take up space, don't do this.

[00:24:18] Ryan: And so. [00:24:20] These are just natural inclinations of who I am. But I've been told by society, and I've, you know, [00:24:25] it's on my responsibility that I've taken these in, but I've taken it in to say, I need to limit this. I need [00:24:30] to change who I am to conform to fit. 'cause if I don't, the message is kind of, everyone [00:24:35] hates you.

[00:24:35] Ryan: Um, and, and that's one of the, it's a really scary thing on so many, especially at this age that you're talking about younger people. [00:24:40] We just wanna fit in. We're going through this weird stuff. We're trying to figure out who we are, and I just want to fit in. [00:24:45] And if I have an impulse and I were to engage in that, then I get, you know, canceled.

[00:24:49] Ryan: [00:24:50] I get a message around school that I'm this creepy, horrible person because I made an advance on someone and [00:24:55] they rejected me. You hide and you say, well, I don't wanna express this part. I mean, [00:25:00] this express part of me is bad. It's caused damage in my life. And of course, why, why would anyone, why [00:25:05] would anyone want to exhibit something that is harming them in a societal system that does that?

[00:25:09] Stephanie: I think [00:25:10] it's important to know that you are saying all this as a married [00:25:15] husband and father who occupies a, a position in [00:25:20] society that's seen as respectable and responsible. You know, you're, you're [00:25:25] self-employed and you're educated. Um, you know, there's, there's [00:25:30] nothing about you that screams creepy or like [00:25:35] risky in any way.

[00:25:35] Stephanie: Yeah.

[00:25:36] SKOT: That's

[00:25:36] Stephanie: good enough. And, and you had maybe [00:25:40] just enough, I mean, just based on your age, maybe just enough of an opportunity to [00:25:45] come of age before some of these factors became. As intense as [00:25:50] they've been for the younger generation. I'm just thinking if you, as someone who you know [00:25:55] is, is generally so grounded and respectable, [00:26:00] personally, experience those pressures, what does that say about [00:26:05] young men who aren't educated or accomplished or married or, [00:26:10] um, you know, haven't had some of those formative experiences?

[00:26:14] Ryan: Again, our [00:26:15] age of like, we got to see the transition into like the internet and we had that childhood [00:26:20] experience and I, I think there's a huge component of that. Like I just didn't, I got to be a kid with [00:26:25] kids outside and I think that is a huge role in, you know, now they're scrolling these videos [00:26:30] constantly at a very young age and I do think that has a massive impact on them.[00:26:35]

[00:26:35] Ryan: But I, you know, I think one of the challenges for kids nowadays is, again, where do I [00:26:40] look for information? Um, and who can I trust? What adult is gonna tell me the [00:26:45] truth? And so this is one of the things I, I really hate, um, is the [00:26:50] politicalization and idealization of everything. A teacher, you know, if you go into a school, [00:26:55] we're presuming that you have one ideology.

[00:26:56] Ryan: And we we're not able to think aloud. And I think so often [00:27:00] what kids really need right now is a space to just think and just be, and try and [00:27:05] experiment with things. And not to be said, oh, this is who you are. It's like, okay, this is who you wanna [00:27:10] be right now. Okay, great. Like, let's, you can try this.

[00:27:12] Ryan: Honestly, what this is like, I'm not gonna [00:27:15] make any drastic changes to your life because you're going through a place of experiment and we need that. [00:27:20] And I wanna, you know, part of my goal in life is to create spaces where people are allowed to just feel [00:27:25] what they feel. 'cause again, to me, these are just things that happen to us.

[00:27:27] Ryan: We don't actually have a. Control over the thoughts [00:27:30] that enter my mind. One of my beliefs is that if I can understand who I am and that I just have these things and they don't [00:27:35] mean anything, well, I don't have to act on them. And I think so often what is problem is people deny [00:27:40] and suppress these things and they start acting on these impulses that they don't just admit, well, I am a thing that has [00:27:45] thoughts, and sometimes they're weird and random, but that's doesn't mean I am my thoughts.

[00:27:49] Ryan: And so [00:27:50] to me, I, I have a big distinction between what I think, what enters my mind and who I am. And having a space [00:27:55] for people to feel and think and have thoughts and not to be attached to that for the rest of your [00:28:00] life is that, oh, I thought that at one point, but I know me. I changed my mind all the [00:28:05] time.

[00:28:05] Ryan: Constantly when there's new information, you updated. And if someone held me to my opinion or what I said, [00:28:10] or even encouraged my opinion too hard, rather than allowing me to figure it on my own, I might [00:28:15] be a totally different person than I am today.

[00:28:16] Stephanie: I hear you talking about intrusive thoughts and also about [00:28:20] self-image when it comes to self-image and how we.[00:28:25]

[00:28:25] Stephanie: Present ourselves in real life. We influence [00:28:30] how we present ourselves through things like how we dress and groom [00:28:35] ourselves, our facial expressions and body language, and most of all our, our personality and how we interact with [00:28:40] any given situation. Whereas when we're online, we [00:28:45] have to define ourselves using words and images.

[00:28:49] Stephanie: We [00:28:50] use these labels. Um, and, and without that, there's, there's [00:28:55] nothing that comes across just in terms of a vibe. And I think about the young people who have [00:29:00] grown up on the internet and is it really any wonder that they feel so much [00:29:05] pressure to put those labels on themselves as opposed to what you're saying of just [00:29:10] being and having an experience in the moment without feeling like that has to define you, [00:29:15] especially while you're still under construction

[00:29:16] Ryan: and there's so much, um.

[00:29:18] Ryan: Incentive to do [00:29:20] these things like, you know, to put a label on there. It's, of course if I wanna fit into a group, I put a label on and that [00:29:25] group will accept me, you know, for a period of time. You know, I, I have a theory on [00:29:30] the social media, so working in schools, this fascinating thing would happen where you sit next to me in math [00:29:35] class and when I go home in the afternoon, I'm gonna talk so much shit about you online almost as if I forget that [00:29:40] I'm sitting next to you in my math class tomorrow.

[00:29:42] Ryan: And we'll have to deal with the consequences of doing this. And I [00:29:45] think so much of what is happening now is that we don't do, I mean this is a bit closer to [00:29:50] face-to-face, but we don't do face-to-face interaction. I think like, well what happens is that when I'm talking to you now, [00:29:55] I get to see your face and if I say something funny, I get to see her smile.

[00:29:58] Ryan: If I say something offensive, I might see a [00:30:00] scowl in your face. There's immediate feedback. I know instantly within my [00:30:05] own body I will have sensations that will tell me how I'm doing in the conversation, what's going on. [00:30:10] Social media there just doesn't exist, or the delay is so far past [00:30:15] what I think human beings are wired to do.

[00:30:18] Ryan: We don't see that this is another person [00:30:20] that we're talking to. It's an object or it's a thing. It's, it's something that's not human. And I think there's a huge [00:30:25] problem with so much online interactions that. We're not equipped to do it. [00:30:30] I have to put so much effort on Twitter to remind myself that, hey, that's a person there.[00:30:35]

[00:30:35] Ryan: Um, they're sitting behind their computer. I need to not be a dick. 'cause I, I have very, my sense [00:30:40] of humor is very sharp. I grew up around boys and it's just, well, how we joke around is be as [00:30:45] mean as we possibly can to one another and in the most humorous way. And I think that's funny. That's how I [00:30:50] like to interact with my friends.

[00:30:50] Ryan: But I have to remember, oh, I don't know this person. They don't know me. They can't see my little smile in me giggling [00:30:55] as I type this because I think it's funny and I don't mean harm by it. And we forget all of these [00:31:00] little nuances that help us mediate in person interactions. It's just gone [00:31:05] and it just happened and we didn't really think about the consequences of it.

[00:31:08] Ryan: And it's [00:31:10] continuing to happen. And for me, it kind of just continues to play out over and over and over again. [00:31:15]

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[00:32:02] Stephanie: A lot of them have [00:32:05] traits and I'm often left wondering [00:32:10] are they neurologically different in some sort of [00:32:15] meaningful and lasting way, or are we looking at social [00:32:20] developmental delays? Partly because of lack of, um, [00:32:25] realtime social experiences.

[00:32:27] Ryan: Yeah, it's, it's one of those questions I'm like, I don't know, [00:32:30] but it seems feasible that we should really be looking into stuff like this of what happens when you [00:32:35] cut in-person.

[00:32:36] Ryan: Human communication in half and probably more than that honestly. [00:32:40] Like it where we're at and what are the effects of that and what is the consequence? How does this impact [00:32:45] development and um, how does it impact even just something I'm really obsessed about is play with [00:32:50] kids. The play has changed and now kids still play.

[00:32:54] Ryan: [00:32:55] Often they're playing at their computers with each other, not in the same room. And again, it's a subtle little thing. And [00:33:00] I'm a huge, I played video games as I was a little kid. I engaged with my friends this way. And it's wonderful. It's a way to [00:33:05] connect. It's not the same though. It's not the same as being in the same room.

[00:33:08] Ryan: There's always these memes of [00:33:10] like, look back at the nineties, how cool it was like you're in your room with a posters up, you have dominoes and [00:33:15] all of the things. And it was a, an experience being in the same place as people having [00:33:20] to make room for everyone. And it was just, it was, the investment was [00:33:25] different.

[00:33:25] Ryan: I can hop on, talk to my friends, play a game, play a game online with them, hop back off, go [00:33:30] take care of my kids, jump back on. And it's very flexible. No, I had to commit to someone if I said I was coming to your [00:33:35] house, I had to come to your house. And we kind of had to stay there. And we had to figure out, well, what do you wanna do?

[00:33:39] Ryan: And it wasn't [00:33:40] just, I'm only gonna interact with my friend when he's doing the same thing that I'm doing. And then that's. [00:33:45] Interactions have changed immensely. And I do think there's an impact. And my que my answer is, I'm not sure how it [00:33:50] impacts them, but I'm sure that it does.

[00:33:51] Stephanie: Tell us more about what you see going on with young men these days.

[00:33:54] Stephanie: What they're [00:33:55] struggling with, what kind of help they need.

[00:33:57] Ryan: So the first thing that came to my mind, um, and I think it's something that [00:34:00] we've probably seen throughout our lives, I mean, through history, is men [00:34:05] having some form of purpose, meaning, or ritual that helps us develop into a man. And [00:34:10] what does that even mean?

[00:34:11] Ryan: What is the role that a man plays in our society? Something, I'm not sure the answer to that [00:34:15] question anymore. Um, I think, again, if we think of ourselves as kind of biological [00:34:20] beings, my body was equipped to do a very specific task that I think is outdated. [00:34:25] Um, I don't know my purposes anymore. In some sense, I was built to be violent and aggressive when necessary to fight [00:34:30] to hunt.

[00:34:30] Ryan: I don't do any of that. I get to go to the grocery store. I've never been in a physical [00:34:35] altercation. I'm actually kind of proud of that. I don't want to fight people. I, I'm not built for it. [00:34:40] Uh, psychologically, but there's a real question of like, well, what am I doing and what is actually my [00:34:45] purpose? And is there something about what, who I am that I can leverage and utilize?

[00:34:49] Ryan: [00:34:50] And I think that's a real open question that I would love to, to dig deeper and of like, what is, [00:34:55] what is a male's role in our current society? And it, you know, again, back to the [00:35:00] messages you hear, I so often heard these messages of, you know, I would see 'em on magazine covers of like, women, women [00:35:05] don't need men anymore.

[00:35:06] Ryan: Um, we've essentially replaced you. And it's, again, I just, [00:35:10] I can feel that sentiment of like, oh yeah, we are kind of obsolete. Um, and I actually [00:35:15] lent some creds to that idea of like the natural things that we tended to and [00:35:20] got power and authority and meaning and purpose for. There's not a lot of that anymore.

[00:35:24] Ryan: And [00:35:25] I'm not saying there aren't alternative routes. I think there really is, but it's not obvious. [00:35:30] Um, the world's become a lot more complicated and it's not, okay, well you go into the military or you become a farmer. It's. [00:35:35] You only had so many options and now there's too many options. There's an [00:35:40] unlimited amount of options.

[00:35:40] Ryan: I think some people are confused of, well, which one do I take and where do I actually [00:35:45] fit in where it would feel natural, it would feel good for me.

[00:35:47] Stephanie: It's sort of the combination of factors [00:35:50] that, for one, we don't know what the job market's gonna look like in 10 years. [00:35:55] It's changing so rapidly today.

[00:35:56] Ryan: No idea.

[00:35:57] Stephanie: Um. So I, I [00:36:00] really feel for anyone having to make any career related decisions right now, whether that's young people coming of [00:36:05] age or, or people in any stage of life who are losing jobs or [00:36:10] yes, at risk of losing jobs. So that's real. Um, but what we do know [00:36:15] is that, you know, the, the majority of well-paying jobs as [00:36:20] well as the majority of opportunities for those who are more entrepreneurial, [00:36:25] um, are mental work, computer based work.

[00:36:28] Stephanie: Um, [00:36:30] and, and that doesn't necessarily provide a clear outlet like you're saying, for [00:36:35] those aggressive drives.

[00:36:37] Ryan: Even just the physicality of things. You know, I, I, when I, when [00:36:40] I worked at schools, I was always lamenting that we didn't have a trade program for. [00:36:45] Even with ai, we're gonna need people to do things with their hands until the robots entirely take [00:36:50] over.

[00:36:50] Ryan: And I don't know about any of that, but for, for a period of time, we're gonna need people to do things. And the idea [00:36:55] that I could do something that my hands build, to use my physical strength to create something [00:37:00] is an area that I think, you know, societally we have just kind of ppo. Like, it's just not, [00:37:05] it's not nice, it's not a cool thing.

[00:37:06] Ryan: You're not, you know, your parents are be like, I hope you become a plumber. It's, I hope you become a lawyer, [00:37:10] an IT person, and you know, an engineer of people that are doing things with their minds. And [00:37:15] I think we've really diminished the value of the people that keep our lights on, um, the people that keep the [00:37:20] water running.

[00:37:20] Ryan: And that not only can you make some decent money actually doing this, but it actually can give you real [00:37:25] purpose to see I built that house. And to see that, oh, your lights turn on because I fixed the power lines [00:37:30] during the storm. Um, and to have a mission or something to be working on with physicality, [00:37:35] I think again, it's a, I think it's always interesting to look at the moment in time we are society and [00:37:40] it's not very much physicality is.

[00:37:42] Ryan: Almost entirely looked down upon, um, [00:37:45] as something kind of beneath us.

[00:37:46] Stephanie: Are you familiar with Maxim Smith and the preparation?

[00:37:49] Ryan: [00:37:50] No, I'm not.

[00:37:50] Stephanie: I interviewed him on this podcast. He, he's like 19, going on [00:37:55] 30. Um, very impressive young man. Um, he, he worked with his father and [00:38:00] father's friend on this program. Uh, that's basically like a [00:38:05] self-guided.

[00:38:06] Stephanie: Way of coming up with your own curriculum as an [00:38:10] alternative to college. And it's, it's geared toward young men. Um, [00:38:15] although I think there's been talk of what would, what would the female equivalent [00:38:20] be? Um, I mean, some of, not to say that women can't do the same [00:38:25] things as men, but we are, like you said, built for different purposes and have different strengths.[00:38:30]

[00:38:30] Stephanie: Um, so he did like three months at a time teaching [00:38:35] himself, you know, wilderness first aid and, you know, um, [00:38:40] life guarding and, and fence mending and just all these different experiences, [00:38:45] which seem like such a more classic way to learn through experience [00:38:50] and such a great way to build self-confidence as well.

[00:38:53] Stephanie: But it seems like. [00:38:55] Rather than those, um, experiences being built into how [00:39:00] we live, it's up to young people and those who love them to [00:39:05] come up with these plans to figure out how, how are we gonna get our son some [00:39:10] real life experiences, some, uh, you know, ways of building skills [00:39:15] and confidence and self-esteem.

[00:39:16] Stephanie: I

[00:39:17] Ryan: think it's always interesting to think about like the, how school [00:39:20] has evolved where school was a niche thing for highly educated, [00:39:25] gifted people, and now school is ubiquitous for everyone. And so this model that worked with a [00:39:30] highly motivated, you know, certain level of intellectual profile, now it's just for [00:39:35] everyone.

[00:39:35] Ryan: And I, I certainly worked with kids who they just couldn't do the bookwork. I myself, [00:39:40] I can't read poetry. You'll see me complaining on Twitter about it all the time. I cannot read highly [00:39:45] analytical texts with big words. It just doesn't make sense to me. But if it can be explained to me in a different [00:39:50] way, if I can use real world examples or if you can use objects to help me understand something, [00:39:55] I can grasp it.

[00:39:56] Ryan: And so trying to think of like an alternative program, like you know, as you were just mentioning, [00:40:00] oh, here's something that someone learns and is able, and actually maybe highly proficient with their hands [00:40:05] and with their spatial awareness to see how things are put together. But we've only given them the one [00:40:10] route essentially, which is, well, you have to be book smart and if you're not book smart, there's something wrong with you and we'll give you a disability, et [00:40:15] cetera.

[00:40:15] Ryan: You know, the whole, and there's all issues with disability classifications in my head of. Well, [00:40:20] yes, it's a, it's a disability given the way the systems are set up, but we only have one kind of system. Um, so I, you know, [00:40:25] one of the things I would love to see in education is that diversification of different minds are [00:40:30] adapted to different things.

[00:40:30] Ryan: Um, and like I think, like you mentioned, it's not necessarily right down the line of like gender [00:40:35] or sex, but that there is a population statistics we should pay attention to. And for [00:40:40] me personally, I think it's kind of more bang for your buck is kind of what I'm going for is not for perfection, but I see a [00:40:45] population that needs something.

[00:40:46] Ryan: Why not give it to 'em? Even if it doesn't include everyone. There's a huge [00:40:50] need in this domain that why don't we give this a shot? Again, I'm not looking for, for [00:40:55] perfection, but we have. Nothing right now, essentially to me in my eyes, it's not nothing but very, very, [00:41:00] very little in this kind of, you know, it's a 19 year olds making this amazing program.

[00:41:03] Ryan: Says something about the estate of [00:41:05] affairs.

[00:41:05] Stephanie: Earlier you said one of the things that young men need is a sense of purpose. And [00:41:10] I would link purpose to accomplishment. Accomplishment as the manifestation [00:41:15] of purpose and, and as we sort of acquire a history of [00:41:20] accomplishments that can contribute to a sense of purpose or direction.

[00:41:24] Stephanie: And I think [00:41:25] one of the problems I have with the educational system is that young people reach 18 without [00:41:30] necessarily having accomplished much that they can be proud of. Yes, [00:41:35] they got certain test scores and completed essays on [00:41:40] topics that they were directed to write about if, if they're even writing their own essays anymore, but.

[00:41:44] Stephanie: [00:41:45] When I'm working with parents of youth who are approaching 18, one of the tools I sometimes use [00:41:50] is, is I'll, I'll advise them to talk with their kid about what skills [00:41:55] and interests they have, uh, what's, what they've already developed, what they're currently learning, [00:42:00] and ask their kid what would it feel good to reach 18 having [00:42:05] accomplished.

[00:42:05] Stephanie: Um, you know, there's no reason, uh, this day and age [00:42:10] that a person can't reach 18 having [00:42:15] already done something like coded an app [00:42:20] or, um, painted a mural or, you know, [00:42:25] depending on whatever their skills and interests might be. And, and I think the completion of [00:42:30] an actual project that has some meaning outside of the sort of arbitrary standards set up by the [00:42:35] school system, those are the sorts of things that, that you can take with you.

[00:42:39] Ryan: It [00:42:40] made me think like the number one question I would hear in the schools is, why am I doing this? I never had [00:42:45] an answer 'cause I, this was my answer was, you're right. The reason you're doing this is I am, [00:42:50] the school is teaching you how to do things you don't like to do. And I think that's actually a very important lesson in life is how do I [00:42:55] do things that I don't like to do?

[00:42:56] Ryan: But that was the only honest answer I was able to give them. 'cause a lot of these kids, no, you weren't gonna use these [00:43:00] skills. And that is just the honest answer. And I, you know, to me, I was, I got through [00:43:05] education through minimum, the minimum u minimum amount of time I could spend on my [00:43:10] education is what I did.

[00:43:10] Ryan: 'cause I realized, oh, they're just seeing if I can write a paper [00:43:15] now. This paper doesn't have to be mean anything. Um, it doesn't have to be important. It doesn't have to be useful. [00:43:20] It has to meet the metrics that my teacher is requiring me of doing. As opposed to when [00:43:25] I was in my internship program in grad school, that meant a lot to me.

[00:43:28] Ryan: There was a human being in front of me. There was [00:43:30] someone that needed something that was real. And I felt so much stronger [00:43:35] about those processes, those applications of my knowledge to I wanna work with this kid because. I actually [00:43:40] care. I don't care about this paper. I know this doesn't matter. The reason I was doing this was I needed the [00:43:45] piece, piece of paper at the end of the, uh, of grad school so I could do the job.

[00:43:48] Ryan: That was my only [00:43:50] motivation to do this was, but since I've left, I love learning. I am [00:43:55] constantly reading. I'm bugging people on Twitter to teach me stuff 'cause I don't understand it constantly. And I [00:44:00] want that. But I had to have my own reason for doing that. And if I, I, I think like myself, like other [00:44:05] people, just 'cause someone told me to is not a good reason.

[00:44:08] Ryan: And I see it in my practice [00:44:10] quite often, which is I was, I did what I was told to do. I was really good at doing what I was told to do for 40 [00:44:15] years and fucking miserable. I, I hate my life. I followed the plan that everyone else [00:44:20] told me to do and I never asked, stopped and asked, is that what I want to be doing?

[00:44:24] Ryan: [00:44:25] I just got really good at following the rules and really good at reading. Okay, this system wants this outta me. I'll just, [00:44:30] I'll give it to it and I'll get the reward. Um. No one ever stopped to ask [00:44:35] like, Hey, what do you actually want to do? Or Are you just gaming the system? And I, I, my observation, a lot of people learned how [00:44:40] to game the system.

[00:44:41] Ryan: Um, I was one of them. So I, I know from firsthand experience,

[00:44:43] Stephanie: I appreciate the [00:44:45] honesty. I think I, I can relate to some of that just, okay, what hoops do [00:44:50] I have to jump through here? And you raise a fair point that there [00:44:55] is value in learning how to persevere through and complete [00:45:00] tasks that you're not personally motivated to complete, but toward what end [00:45:05] and what's the ratio of that to things that [00:45:10] are personally meaningful, motivating, and rewarding.

[00:45:13] Stephanie: And I think when the ratio is off, it's [00:45:15] demoralizing. And I think that is pretty much the nature of a lot of [00:45:20] education is because there's so much of it that just feels so pointless. Whereas, [00:45:25] you know, for me personally. I, I can [00:45:30] accomplish, I can also do things I don't want to do, um, [00:45:35] if it's part of accomplishing something bigger that I do want to do.

[00:45:39] Stephanie: And I feel like [00:45:40] that is the why that we could really strengthen for a lot of these young [00:45:45] people, because the thing that they want to do is, you know, get good [00:45:50] grades so they can graduate from high school so that they can get into a good college, get a good scholarship to college. You [00:45:55] know, it's these like big milestones that they're working toward as opposed to something [00:46:00] more like real life where there's a particular project.

[00:46:04] Stephanie: You know, for [00:46:05] example, if you're motivated to buy your first house, um, you're gonna have to learn [00:46:10] about mortgage insurance and you're gonna have to read a bunch of boring [00:46:15] contract stuff. And, you know, there are things that you're gonna have to learn how to do. But it's all [00:46:20] for the sake of something where you can visualize that concrete outcome and that is [00:46:25] your goal.

[00:46:25] Stephanie: That's how real life works. And I don't feel like the educational system [00:46:30] does a good enough job of emulating that.

[00:46:31] Ryan: No, I, I, I think you're absolutely right. It's, that was the most [00:46:35] honest answer that I could give them. It is still kind of bs. It's like, yeah, this is way too much of this. [00:46:40] Um, we are revolving this, this whole education system around what we want you to do rather than [00:46:45] what, trying to help you figure out what it is that you want to do.

[00:46:48] Ryan: Um, and you know, I also [00:46:50] recognize, I, I will talk a lot of negativity about the school system. I also think like pragmatically how to do this [00:46:55] is extraordinarily challenging. Um, to actually set up a system in [00:47:00] which we're teaching everyone, um, and within the laws that we have in this country, which is we have to provide everyone a [00:47:05] free access to public education, um, by law.

[00:47:08] Ryan: And how do we do this in this [00:47:10] very individualized, nuanced way where we have people spending time with these kids to work through some [00:47:15] of these problems. And one of the challenges that I saw in the school was. We try to do this through, uh, [00:47:20] social emotional learning programs or SELs, which I'm, I have feeling you've probably talked about before, and it's, well, who's implementing this?[00:47:25]

[00:47:25] Ryan: How is it being implemented? So even some of these ideas, I love it when we get down [00:47:30] to like the real nitty gritty of like, how do we actually do these things? It's extraordinarily [00:47:35] challenging, it's really expensive. And to find the actual like human power that has the [00:47:40] education and emotional bandwidth to work with, you know, kids at this level.[00:47:45]

[00:47:45] Ryan: Part of me is like, I, I, I sometimes despair. I'm like, it's not just that we don't know [00:47:50] how to do it, it's that do we even have the actual resources to provide some of these things? [00:47:55] Or, you know, some of these problems are societal issues where often in the school setting, we, we would [00:48:00] have this feeling of like, wait, I have to not only educate your kids, but I have to be their parents too.

[00:48:03] Ryan: And I have to like tell them like [00:48:05] right from wrong 'cause, and it's, how do we have this balance where the schools, we, I think over relied on the school [00:48:10] systems to provide a lot more than what schools should provide, which is just. [00:48:15] Facts, like we should be teaching you things. And we've taken this also the emotional care in sel, [00:48:20] which again, I, there's a, I see a purpose to it.

[00:48:22] Ryan: I don't wanna be like super, I'm not like black, white [00:48:25] on it. But there's some problems, um, and some concerns that is, again, just 'cause it [00:48:30] sounds good. It doesn't mean the actual implementation in any one individual school is actually [00:48:35] a good thing. And recognize that some of this is marketing. We are selling programs, [00:48:40] schools are, you know, these programs, these SELs are someone's business, the schools are a [00:48:45] business.

[00:48:45] Ryan: Very often they wanna market that they're using the new, hottest, freshest, SEL and that gets more [00:48:50] enrollment and enrollment's how these schools make money. So there's so many economic incentives that these are [00:48:55] really, I think, my stance in most things. These are really complex problems and they're really, really [00:49:00] challenging and a lot of like, you know, throw money at it or this people always have like one idea and if we just did this [00:49:05] one thing, it would fix everything.

[00:49:06] Ryan: And it's just, we've never been in this system. Um, it's a lot more [00:49:10] complex than this. It's a lot more complicated and mean. We have a lot more challenges and I'm a big person. I don't like [00:49:15] criticizing stuff very much 'cause it's cheap and it's easy. I can criticize things all day. How you actually build something like [00:49:20] this is such a monumental challenge.

[00:49:22] Ryan: But I do think it starts with these conversations at first. [00:49:25] What are we even trying to build? What are we doing? Why are we doing the things that we have been doing for the last 50 [00:49:30] years and does it work? Is it producing the results that we want? And it seems pretty clear, almost universally. I think [00:49:35] everyone is pretty displeased with how the education system is running.

[00:49:37] Stephanie: I don't personally know enough about [00:49:40] SEL to critique it, but I have had some, some knowledgeable guests come on the show. Um. [00:49:45] To be honest, I'm forgetting. Let's see. Jason Littlefield, I think is one. Um, but it's [00:49:50] been a while since we spoke. And, um, Jonathan Cogburn, I know is a mutual friend of [00:49:55] yours. He's spoke about these sort of things.

[00:49:57] Stephanie: Um, I get the overall impression. SEL [00:50:00] and schools in general are not super boy friendly,

[00:50:03] Ryan: so I can speak to [00:50:05] especially schools. Uh, I would say definitely not boy friendly. Um, in [00:50:10] SEL, it, it would depend on the program. Some of them I actually think actually are tailored towards specifically boys and do a [00:50:15] decent job.

[00:50:15] Ryan: Um, and again, it's a lot in the details as who's, who's implementing this and for what [00:50:20] population are we doing so often these are just like kind of, well, the whole school's doing it rather than let's target this [00:50:25] intervention for the people that it was actually built for targeting rather than just kind of doing it.

[00:50:29] Ryan: For everyone. [00:50:30] Um, but as far as like, just even like, these are stupid things that I know everyone has always talked about, but [00:50:35] taking dodge ball outta school, just, we've taken all physicality out of stuff. I, we used to play a game. I [00:50:40] remember in middle school we called it wall ball or butts up or throw a tennis ball against the wall.

[00:50:43] Ryan: You could catch it, but if you miss [00:50:45] the ball and someone throws it against the wall, you have to line up on the wall and they get to peg you as hard as they want [00:50:50] against the wall. And I loved it. It was the most fun game. I was a baseball player, so [00:50:55] I was good at it and I won. But there was something about that was normal and [00:51:00] healthy and it was not, it was a often, I think, ferment a bonding experience for me.

[00:51:04] Ryan: It was [00:51:05] through physical pain and hardship. We actually got closer together to a lot of my friends. And we use these, [00:51:10] whether it's in sports, is, you know, the most typical. But even in just play, [00:51:15] um, I see it all the time, but with my kids there's often it's just, oh, they need to stop arguing. And I'm like, they're okay.[00:51:20]

[00:51:20] Ryan: I, I, like, I see my, I have a 10-year-old son and he. Talks crap to his friends all the time [00:51:25]

[00:51:25] SKOT: and they're laughing

[00:51:26] Ryan: most of the time when they're doing this. And of course they step over the line like kids do and they have [00:51:30] to learn from those experiences. But I don't want to take away what, again, I find most valuable.

[00:51:34] Ryan: [00:51:35] My favorite thing to do is get with a bunch of guys and just rip on each other. It's so much [00:51:40] fun. I don't notice grab it or why it is that way, but that seems to be just a [00:51:45] part of me. 'cause I know I'm not the only one that like, that's like that all of my male friends are like this. It's just how we [00:51:50] interact.

[00:51:50] Ryan: And there's not that we don't have tender parts of us. I'm, I would say I'm actually quite feminine [00:51:55] in a lot of ways and very in touch. I'm a very sensitive person, but. I acknowledge I [00:52:00] have this other part of me and I feed it and it's healthy for me to feed it. 'cause once that's fed, I'm good. I [00:52:05] can go do all of these other things.

[00:52:06] Ryan: I can go be a normal, not creepy person in society, but I got my itch scratched in [00:52:10] like a pro-social way, in a healthy way. And I, I, what I think, you know, ends up happening is people are gonna [00:52:15] scratch the it 'cause they're itching. Um, and they're gonna do it however way they possibly can. [00:52:20] And if it's a degenerate bad way that's harmful to society, that's what they're gonna do.

[00:52:23] Ryan: Um, or if [00:52:25] they find a community that is willing to encourage them and help them up and, you know, work with them, [00:52:30] they'll, I'll probably choose that one. I just don't think that there's a lot of those options. It's not easy to find that right [00:52:35] now.

[00:52:35] Stephanie: It was such a learning curve for me as a stepmom to two boys.

[00:52:38] Stephanie: Um, because, [00:52:40] you know, I didn't have that gradual transition into parenthood that a biological parent does. [00:52:45] Sure. It's just, um, you know, and, and granted we had years to get to know each other before we, you [00:52:50] know, got married, but I. There, there's so much of just boys [00:52:55] being boys that is inherently, um, [00:53:00] uh, disharmonious with my delicate nature, let's say.

[00:53:03] Stephanie: Fair enough. You know? [00:53:05] But I had to like, uh, just, just to keep reframing, like, [00:53:10] this is, this is what they need to do. And my job is usually just [00:53:15] give them space to do it. And, you know, for my husband too, it's, there's a fair [00:53:20] amount of, um, code switching between boy mode and, [00:53:25] and wifey mode. Especially considering that we, you know, the kids are with us part of the time and so [00:53:30] sometimes I'll.

[00:53:31] Stephanie: When we're transitioning out of boy mode, he'll bring some of that [00:53:35] energy to me and I'll be like, um, remember I'm your wife. I'm not your son.

[00:53:38] Ryan: I'm good. I'm good. Set enough. [00:53:40]

[00:53:40] Stephanie: And you know, the, the boys and I bring out much different sides of him and, and [00:53:45] those are all parts of being a man. But I, I think it gets a bad rep.

[00:53:49] Stephanie: [00:53:50] And, and I appreciate that you brought up here the importance of play. [00:53:55] Because part of what's going on in those processes that seem so [00:54:00] obnoxious and pointless at first glance to those of us with, you know, more sensitive [00:54:05] dispositions, part of what's actually happening is there's, they're, they're learning conflict resolution.

[00:54:09] Stephanie: [00:54:10] They're learning boundaries and assertion. They're learning, you know, some of the things that [00:54:15] you demonstrated when you had that rather upbeat [00:54:20] response to the kid being disrespectful. Right. You, you're learning a. And, and, and [00:54:25] I see what's happening with so much helicopter parenting, [00:54:30] the feminization of education and things like that.

[00:54:33] Stephanie: Um, even the [00:54:35] most, well-meaning parents like, and I've coached single moms through this, like very [00:54:40] lovely, lovely, thoughtful women, but they're women and they think like, I think, and they're [00:54:45] not necessarily thinking like a boy thinks. And you know, there, there are moments [00:54:50] that even the best moms have to learn how to step back and not [00:54:55] rescue their son from a conflict with another boy on the playground because.

[00:54:59] Stephanie: [00:55:00] That boy is finding out, can, can he roll with us? Can he [00:55:05] fight back? Can he negotiate? Right? And, and if that boy's all always [00:55:10] going to his mom, like, oh no, so-and-so hurt my feelings. Right? Like, he is not [00:55:15] gonna make it. And,

[00:55:16] Ryan: and I think you bring up, I think is so important for people to [00:55:20] not shame the parents that are doing this.

[00:55:22] Ryan: 'cause I think so often it's, I love my kid and I would [00:55:25] do anything for them. And to see them in distress, it's horrible. Like it is [00:55:30] genuinely a horrible experience as a parent to see the thing you love most in distress. And, you [00:55:35] know, like you could just take it away. I could go do something and take it away.

[00:55:39] Ryan: That's not my, [00:55:40] I, I don't feel like that is my role as a parent. My role is to help you set up a safe enough [00:55:45] environment that you can go figure it out on your own. If you have a conflict with your friend, I'm not gonna text his mom about it. I refuse to [00:55:50] go talk to him about it. Have you talked to him yet about this yet?

[00:55:53] Ryan: Now again, there are [00:55:55] lines of everything and I, you know, this idea of like boys being boys, I think we should let them be boys. And [00:56:00] there's also a line of behavior that male masculinity [00:56:05] is absolutely destructive. And we do need to have a firm line with boys of like, Hey, you've [00:56:10] crossed the line. Um, and trying to figure out where that is as a society I think is kind of what we're [00:56:15] going through right now.

[00:56:15] Ryan: Why everyone's screaming at each other about these things is we're trying to figure out like, where is the actually [00:56:20] healthy line? We maybe went too far into letting boys be boys for a long time, and I think [00:56:25] we went too far now in the other direction of we're very careful and scared of boys expressing kind [00:56:30] of natural male inclination.

[00:56:31] Ryan: I, my hope is that we're gonna find somewhere that is, [00:56:35] listen, like we have to all get along, we all live here and we have to function [00:56:40] well, and we have to figure out where is this line actually and what is [00:56:45] healthy? Aggression. What is healthy sexuality and should we punish these [00:56:50] things? And to me the line is always thoughts and feelings.

[00:56:52] Ryan: We shouldn't really punish them. It's actions that [00:56:55] we need to curb and we need to be cautious of. But allowing kids to think through, I, you know, [00:57:00] I wanna punch 'em in the face. This is my favorite thing. When a kids would come into my office and they're having a fight at the school was, [00:57:05] he'll come in, I wanna punch this other kid in the face.

[00:57:07] Ryan: And most people were like, you can't do that. No, no, no, no. [00:57:10] I'm like, huh, what do you think will happen if you did that? And I just entertain, he's already [00:57:15] thinking about it. Let me just entertain the idea. Without fail. Almost every single [00:57:20] time they walk through that, 'cause I'm encouraging them to do it, and they're like, that sounds like a lot of work.

[00:57:24] Ryan: I don't [00:57:25] know if I wanna do that anymore. And they changed their mind. But just 'cause it wasn't, I'm not telling you don't punch 'em in the face, [00:57:30] you're pissed off, you're angry. I don't think you're telling me I'm going to go. You're expressing an emotion [00:57:35] to me. You're expressing a thought to me, which is someone did something that I found, let's say disrespectful and I [00:57:40] wanna hurt them To me.

[00:57:43] Ryan: That is a normal impulse. I have those [00:57:45] impulses. When someone does something to me, I fantasize about harming them. Again, like I said, I've never been [00:57:50] in physical altercation. I have never heard anyone. Um, well, I, I'm sure I've heard someone, but not like with [00:57:55] intentional malice. But I have those thoughts and fantasies and I don't, I allow [00:58:00] myself to think that and not like, oh my God, I don't think, oh, what a monster.

[00:58:02] Ryan: It's, oh, I'm really angry at this person. [00:58:05] This person really violated a boundary of mine. And that's what I take from my thoughts [00:58:10] and maybe in fantasies, and I allow myself to play with it. It's, there's no harm there. If I can recognize, [00:58:15] okay, this is in me. I don't have to act on this. I can choose a, as an adult, I can [00:58:20] choose a different action and recognize, oh, okay, someone crossed a line.

[00:58:23] Ryan: What do I actually wanna do about that? Rather than [00:58:25] what would feel good would be to punch them. But I, I have, I have kids to worry about. I have a job and a career I, I would like to [00:58:30] maintain.

[00:58:31] Stephanie: I'm gonna connect a few different dots.

[00:58:34] Ryan: Okay.

[00:58:34] Stephanie: Um, I [00:58:35] love that response. What do you think will happen if you do that?

[00:58:39] Stephanie: [00:58:40] Um, I think it shows. So much respect for self-determination [00:58:45] and intellect and, um, with the [00:58:50] parents that I coach, some of the techniques that I use are kind of along those [00:58:55] lines of, um, letting kids actually think through things themselves. [00:59:00] 'cause that is the best way for them to learn their own lessons.

[00:59:04] Stephanie: [00:59:05] And it seems like through that process and the examples that you give, [00:59:10] you arrive at a place of people being able to [00:59:15] make their own decisions to do the right thing, not because someone [00:59:20] else told them. Right? But this, this is self-regulation here. And [00:59:25] I wanna contrast that with intrusive thoughts, which you mentioned earlier, because it's my [00:59:30] understanding that how people develop problems with intrusive thoughts, like obsessive [00:59:35] compulsive disorder, for example, has a lot to do with not.

[00:59:39] Stephanie: Trusting [00:59:40] that process of being able to actually think something all the way through. In other words, so [00:59:45] you have an aggressive impulse, like you said, I wanna punch that guy in the face. A person with obsessive [00:59:50] compulsive disorder, their mind is gonna get stuck there. They're gonna go, oh my goodness, I'm such a terrible [00:59:55] person.

[00:59:55] Stephanie: I wanna punch this person in the face. Can I trust myself not to punch them in the face? What if I can't trust myself [01:00:00] not to punch 'em in the face? Now I need to do this obsessive ritual to make sure I don't punch 'em in the face right. Because they [01:00:05] don't have that freedom to go, okay, what would happen if I did that?

[01:00:08] Stephanie: Hmm. Do I wanna deal [01:00:10] with those consequences? Probably not. Do I have another choice besides punching 'em in the face? Yeah. I can [01:00:15] go blow off some steam by shooting some hoops. Um, okay. Problem solved, right? Yeah. It's like [01:00:20] the, the whole, um, closing the loop. But I, I kind of feel like when there's not. [01:00:25] Room for people to have their aggressive impulses and autonomy and [01:00:30] self-managing and self-regulating.

[01:00:32] Stephanie: Then we end up with this highly [01:00:35] neurotic culture of people not trusting themselves.

[01:00:37] Ryan: To tie this into, like with your parents, I think one of the [01:00:40] challenges is I, I really try to maintain neutrality. It's, I don't get to choose what other people do in their lives. [01:00:45] I would hate that. I am very defiant, and when people try to tell me what to do, like I lose my mind.

[01:00:49] Ryan: It is just who I am, [01:00:50] so I wanna give that same respect to everyone else. But the hard part about that, and I think especially probably for the [01:00:55] parents that you work with, is that I have to allow my child to maybe make a bad decision. That that's the risk of [01:01:00] freedom is like, Hey, I'm gonna give it the choice.

[01:01:02] Ryan: He might walk outta my office and punch someone in the face. Like that is a [01:01:05] distinct possibility that they may do this. My usual is like, okay, [01:01:10] like he will deal with the consequences of this and maybe this will be the next thing after the [01:01:15] consequences of this action. Maybe that'll be what opens his eyes to a different path, and I think you [01:01:20] have to allow people to make their own choices and live with their own choices.

[01:01:24] Ryan: I always, I, you know, something I [01:01:25] often say when I'm working with therapy people, the reason I don't give anyone advice is that, well, if I give you [01:01:30] advice, well, I'm the smart one and I give you good advice. Uh, if the advice didn't work well, then you get to blame [01:01:35] me. Either one of those situations, I don't like either one of those.

[01:01:37] Ryan: I want you to come up with your own solutions and [01:01:40] be realize that you have the ability and talent to listen to yourself to understand what it is that you [01:01:45] want. To take action on that and for you to feel the consequences of your own actions, not [01:01:50] that other people pushing you around telling you what to do.

[01:01:51] Ryan: And I think often with the kids is that they feel, well, mom's telling me what to do [01:01:55] 'cause this is what mom wants me to do. Um, something I always suggest, I, I do it to myself. So I, I often [01:02:00] try to say, I, I try the product out before I tell anyone else to think about something is I ask [01:02:05] myself a question, when are my kids bothering me?

[01:02:06] Ryan: They're annoying me about something that's just driving me insane. I was like, [01:02:10] do I really care about this? And what is it that I actually care about in this moment? If they're doing [01:02:15] something, making a mess, I'm like, what am I actually worried about right now? Maybe I'm worried about they're breaking [01:02:20] something expensive and fair enough, maybe I'll, you know, I'll raise my voice, I'll do what I do.

[01:02:23] Ryan: So often we're just [01:02:25] annoyed by something. And so I think it is a personal issue that we're having, that my [01:02:30] perspective happens often from our own childhoods and our own unresolved issues. And our kids have [01:02:35] this amazing talent to just like put their finger in and twist it in all of those sore spots. [01:02:40] But we actually, if we take that one moment, ask what am I actually upset about?

[01:02:43] Ryan: What am I actually worried about happening [01:02:45] right now? It often clarifies I'm not actually even worried about anything. The kids just kind of [01:02:50] annoy me. And that's again, just like having aggressive impulse. Your kids will annoy you. They are [01:02:55] frustrating. You have feelings of aggression towards your children.

[01:02:57] Ryan: It's something I have shocked me. [01:03:00] Um, when I was a parent, I, I couldn't, I couldn't wrap my head around people that abuse children. And I'm like, [01:03:05] how could you hit a child? And then I had a child and I had a child who lied to me for [01:03:10] two hours straight about something. I knew that he did, and I felt it. I [01:03:15] felt that impulse of just like, I, I don't think I've ever been so enraged in my entire life.

[01:03:19] Ryan: And [01:03:20] I was like, uh, okay. It was that moment. I was just like, oh, I get it now. [01:03:25] Again, it's just a feeling that I'm having. I'm not a monster. I have yet to hit my children. I don't plan on doing it, [01:03:30] but I allow myself to feel angry enough 'cause. They will do that to you. And I think parents [01:03:35] struggle with these feelings of aggression towards their own children.

[01:03:37] Ryan: And so often they're trying to like, well, if I stop him from doing [01:03:40] this, I will, I won't be angry at him anymore. And then, you know, the conflict cycle just happens over and over again. [01:03:45] So, and it's often, you know, so much of the focus. I, I really, I, again, I still know very [01:03:50] little about what you do, but what's something I, I admire very much that you're working with the parents.

[01:03:54] Ryan: So often in these [01:03:55] schools we work with just the kids and we may never meet the parents. And so much of [01:04:00] what's happening with a child is what's happening in the family unit. Um, I big shout out to [01:04:05] Jonathan Cogburn getting me on. I'm rereading all my systems theory stuff and it's kind of blowing my mind at the moment.

[01:04:09] Ryan: [01:04:10] But yeah, it's not just a child. They're not the fully formed individual. There's other people in [01:04:15] this unit that we need to address and so often it's a child goes into the office and the parents aren't [01:04:20] included. And that, I think that is just an area of weakness of mine that I'm trying to. Get better at it.

[01:04:24] Ryan: So [01:04:25] I really, you know, I admire it's, that's one of the hard parts about working with kids. You're not working with just one person. You're working with entire [01:04:30] family units. If you wanna do the work well,

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[01:05:05] Stephanie: Again, use code some therapist@lisamustard.com [01:05:10] slash pod courses. I'll include that link and coupon in the show notes for your convenience. [01:05:15] Alright, now back to the show. I think you've brought up some important points about [01:05:20] autonomy. And, uh, letting kids make their own [01:05:25] decisions and deal with those natural consequences of it.

[01:05:27] Stephanie: And I, I frequently find myself [01:05:30] telling parents that, especially between ages 13 and 18, there needs [01:05:35] to be a continual progressive ramping up [01:05:40] of the amount of freedom and responsibility that you give them. And you, you have to constantly recalibrate [01:05:45] because as an adult, you're not changing nearly as quickly as they are.

[01:05:48] Stephanie: So you, you have to keep [01:05:50] up. Where are they at this week? Is there something I was doing for them up until yesterday that [01:05:55] I should stop doing today? And, and there's so many [01:06:00] little shifts you can make in adolescence between telling them [01:06:05] what to do or otherwise imposing your will versus. [01:06:10] Treating things like their own decisions and as learning opportunities for them to [01:06:15] learn how to think through and problem solving and yeah, a fair amount of letting [01:06:20] them make mistakes.

[01:06:21] Stephanie: But if, if every parent who's caught up in the [01:06:25] moment of the struggle of parenting and adolescent could see from that 40,000 foot view, [01:06:30] they would be able to see that it's so worth the reward. [01:06:35] Letting them make that small mistake today is how they're gonna not [01:06:40] make a big mistake tomorrow.

[01:06:41] Ryan: My personal experience with this, what is the hardest is that [01:06:45] it's harder to do that.

[01:06:46] Ryan: It's actually the harder work to watch your child [01:06:50] struggle and make a mess and just sit there while you could just do it for them. [01:06:55] And the, the whole situation's over in five seconds if I do it for you. But it's a 20 [01:07:00] minute ordeal if I'm teaching you. And it is a genuine challenge because as you said, these are [01:07:05] not huge milestone development.

[01:07:07] Ryan: These are everyday things. Are we gonna, I'm gonna teach you [01:07:10] how to fold your laundry today. It's a whole skill. And we, I think we kind of take, we often forget as adults that [01:07:15] this is a, there's our whole process to like skill learning. And it's not easy and it's often not [01:07:20] fun, especially if a kid doesn't wanna do it.

[01:07:21] Ryan: So, you know, I always try to like, give parents like, Hey, this [01:07:25] is hard. Don't expect this to be easy. Um, but I agree with you. But you know, the [01:07:30] argument is, hey, it is so much better when they're independent, when they feel capable and [01:07:35] autonomous to do these things, then you don't have to do anything for them.

[01:07:37] Ryan: So it's like putting the work now and [01:07:40] give them, you know, don't do things for kids that they can do for themselves and probably for any adults who did, he'd buy that [01:07:45] and the general advice. But it's hard. It's really, really hard. And I always try [01:07:50] to bring back like the human element of. It's very painful to watch your child struggle.

[01:07:53] Ryan: And I'm sure I have so [01:07:55] much, so much sympathy for these parents that are going through some of the challenges that you talk about is that what do [01:08:00] you do as a parent when you see something like this and you just see your child suffering, you don't know why [01:08:05] and you have all these people giving you advice from every direction and they're not in your shoes [01:08:10] dealing with, you know, like the 1:00 AM breakdown that you're dealing with and like the day to day [01:08:15] where I get you're trying to avoid those things and you would do anything to do that.

[01:08:19] Ryan: Even if it's [01:08:20] not the greatest thing. Sometimes you will, you will try just about anything to [01:08:25] improve your child's life. And that's hard to admit that sometimes I'm hurting my child. It's something I think of a lot [01:08:30] about the harms of good things that good people do. So as parents we harm our kids as educators, we [01:08:35] harm people as therapists.

[01:08:36] Ryan: I harm my clients. I know that I do. It is something I'm acutely aware of [01:08:40] constantly. 'cause if you don't, you are gonna do more of it. Um, and being open to the idea of like, [01:08:45] ah, I screwed that up. Okay, I'm gonna do it different next time. And it's okay. Um, [01:08:50] we're, so to me, like saying I'm going to do something gives me permission to like, okay, I don't have to [01:08:55] hide it 'cause I already know I'm gonna do it.

[01:08:57] Ryan: So rather than hiding when this does happen and feeling the shame [01:09:00] of, oh my God, I can't believe I did this. Like, oh, here it is. Here's the thing that I knew was gonna happen. How do I [01:09:05] actually want to deal with this as a parent therapist, whatever, you know, whatever the role is that I'm playing.

[01:09:08] Stephanie: I'll just remind [01:09:10] anyone who needs this reminder that you want your kids to be competent and [01:09:15] competence doesn't develop overnight.

[01:09:16] Stephanie: And it's also not a matter of technically knowing how to do a [01:09:20] skill in the same way that, you know, one could recite the steps [01:09:25] or watch a video of someone else doing it and say, oh yeah, I could have done that. Right. The, the [01:09:30] skills that we genuinely have, we've practiced them hundreds if not thousands of times.

[01:09:33] Stephanie: Your kid might [01:09:35] technically know how to do something, but that doesn't mean that they genuinely have the competence and skill [01:09:40] that develops through repetition of doing it on their own and, and. [01:09:45] Learning along the way. And it's that genuine competence that [01:09:50] builds confidence, that builds identity. And, and if we [01:09:55] haven't sold it enough yet, the more genuine event and identity [01:10:00] your kid actually has, the less likely they are to build a fictitious alter [01:10:05] ego and hide behind that and use that as a grandiose [01:10:10] crutch.

[01:10:10] Ryan: I like this idea of competency and how do you build competence [01:10:15] competency in someone. It's not an easy task and it's to allow them to figure out, well, first competency in what, [01:10:20] what do, what do we want them to build the competency and give them the space to figure this out. And [01:10:25] as you said, breaking down like what does it actually mean to teach someone how to do something?

[01:10:29] Ryan: Um, and the [01:10:30] steps and the process to go do, and then breaking it down. And I think the other, the one other piece that I thought [01:10:35] was great of what you said is, I wanna take it actually, not just kids. I think this is adults. [01:10:40] We are highly motivated. Often, I always use dieting as an example, or losing weight, highly [01:10:45] motivated.

[01:10:45] Ryan: We even may know the exact, like you said, the skills and the list of things we need to do and we fail to [01:10:50] do it. There was like 96% of diets often fail. At some point we fail to do [01:10:55] this and recognizing, oh, what is, to me what that is, is that there's often a emotional or like [01:11:00] a, there's a thing going on beneath our rationality.

[01:11:03] Ryan: Um, and we have to understand [01:11:05] kids have not developed their emotional regulatory skills yet. They just haven't. They're younger [01:11:10] and so of course they're going to sometimes be able to perform a task and sometimes not. [01:11:15] Maybe the variability is higher than for us as adults. But I see plenty of adults who, [01:11:20] and myself included, some days I'm on fire and I can just do it all.

[01:11:23] Ryan: And there's some days I'm [01:11:25] practically worthless and I can't, and it's not 'cause I don't know how it is something [01:11:30] emotional, it's something inside of me that is just, I can't do it today. And to seeing that when our [01:11:35] kids, you always often see like, well, I saw you do it yesterday. It's like, well, yesterday was a different day and I was in a different state of mind [01:11:40] and we were maybe in a different relationship yesterday than we are today.

[01:11:43] Ryan: And all these little factors [01:11:45] rather than just, it's not like as you, I think you said it's so important. It's not just rote skills. Learning, there's [01:11:50] so much more to why do human beings do things than just they didn't know how. Um, thereafter we know how [01:11:55] to do, we know how we know what we're supposed to do.

[01:11:56] Ryan: Most of the time it's the challenge of doing the thing that's [01:12:00] scary or doing the thing that is frustrating and that we're not so great at yet. I hate being bad at things. So like learning new [01:12:05] skills. I hate that hump, that first month. You're getting into something and you're like, [01:12:10] I know I'm totally incompetent.

[01:12:11] Ryan: I don't know how to do any of this. It's not fun at all. But then you get it into like a [01:12:15] year of doing something like, oh, I see. And it's starting to get fun. And if you stick with something. It becomes [01:12:20] really fun when you master it and you become competent in doing it. But again, it's [01:12:25] just recognizing it is hard and you need encouragement and help and scaffolding for kids [01:12:30] to get them to that part where, okay, you can take it on your own.

[01:12:32] Ryan: Now, I think we're often too quick to be like, oh, [01:12:35] well I told you once. I'm just go do it rather than, no. A lot of this is challenging and [01:12:40] prepares to remember. If, even if it wasn't challenging for you, your kid's, only 50% of you, they're [01:12:45] 50% of another person. Um, and they're not you and they have a different life experiences and what [01:12:50] was easy for you may be a totally different challenge for them.

[01:12:54] Ryan: But it's, it's [01:12:55] all these factors are playing out constantly, but through, in that moment when things are just not going well [01:13:00] is very hard to remember this. Not just to yell at your kid and be like, do this, um, or lose your cool about something, [01:13:05]

[01:13:05] Stephanie: a sort of underlying subtext. I'm hearing with a lot of what you're saying [01:13:10] is a healthy sense of differentiation.

[01:13:11] Stephanie: I think when you have a sense of [01:13:15] differentiation, then all of these things become possible. And so listeners are going, what does she mean by [01:13:20] differentiation? We all know what it is to differentiate, but what, what is that? In a psychological sense? And this is [01:13:25] something that I talk about in my course, this is something that our mutual friend Jonathan Cogburn talks about.

[01:13:29] Stephanie: 'cause he also, [01:13:30] you know, operates from a family systems perspective. Um. I would say there's kind of [01:13:35] two main components to what I mean when I say differentiation. So, uh, there's, I [01:13:40] guess you could call it inner differentiation and outer differentiation. Inner meaning Can I differentiate [01:13:45] thoughts, feelings, and actions from one another?

[01:13:47] Stephanie: Like earlier you differentiated [01:13:50] feeling angry from throwing objects because you're [01:13:55] angry. Right? Uh, we don't have to be afraid of the emotion of anger [01:14:00] itself if we have a sense of differentiation that simply having an emotion does not [01:14:05] necessarily mean that a set of actions is soon to follow. So there's that level of differentiation.

[01:14:09] Stephanie: [01:14:10] And then there's also the interpersonal differentiation, recognizing our perspectives, um, [01:14:15] needs, experiences all vary from one person to the other. And being able to [01:14:20] coexist, being able to have a sense of self. And to, to remain [01:14:25] anchored in one's own experience while making room for others' experiences is a function of [01:14:30] sort of that aspect of psychological maturity.

[01:14:32] Stephanie: So if listeners are hearing, [01:14:35] you know, the things that you like about Ryan's perspective and you're like, what is it about this guy? He sounds [01:14:40] so healthy and emotionally mature. What, what is that? I think differentiation is part of what you're hearing. It's [01:14:45] part of what allows for all of these downstream things, right?

[01:14:48] Stephanie: And that same ability that you were [01:14:50] describing to kind of be with someone while they're making a decision, especially if it's a young person, that you [01:14:55] love to be with them in that decision making process without feeling the need to impose your will [01:15:00] to give them that differentiation from you so that [01:15:05] they can differentiate their own will and uh, they can make [01:15:10] choices where there's also a difference between, um, what they [01:15:15] might be feeling and what they might choose to do with those feelings.

[01:15:18] Stephanie: So the child's [01:15:20] differentiation. Is partly reliant on the adult having a healthy [01:15:25] sense of differentiation, which is one of the reasons that, you know, parents can benefit from doing things like [01:15:30] my program RGD repair or working with me, where again, like you said, Ryan, like I'm not even working [01:15:35] with the youth directly, but by doing your own inner work, you're modeling a way of being that gives other [01:15:40] people more room to mature as well.

[01:15:41] Ryan: This idea of differentiation, I, I will take all the [01:15:45] compliments that I seem like I'm differentiated. It's a journey and I would say I'm a different person than I [01:15:50] was five, maybe 10 years ago. I was totally undifferentiated other people's [01:15:55] feelings felt as if they were my own. My life was based upon how do I make sure that that [01:16:00] person's okay?

[01:16:00] Ryan: 'cause if they're okay, I am okay. And that was how my life operated, [01:16:05] um, since I was a child. And I'm not gonna go into the details of that, but that was my [01:16:10] existence and it is a. Existence full of resentment and anger is what I [01:16:15] can describe it as, is that I'm not living my own life. I don't know what my own life even is.

[01:16:19] Ryan: [01:16:20] Um, all I know is how do I get through to the next day and make sure that the person around me is okay? 'cause that's the [01:16:25] only way that I know that I can feel. Okay. And it is, you know, I, this is why I'm a big [01:16:30] advocate of psychotherapy is not only just 'cause what I wanna do it, I feel like it saved my life and continues to be a [01:16:35] part of my life to help me differentiate this thing that I'm just wired this way Now.

[01:16:39] Ryan: I, I, you know, [01:16:40] I, I always like to make sure everyone understands there's no finish line ever. We don't just [01:16:45] differentiate and then you're differentiated. It is an ongoing process because a relationship. [01:16:50] It's trying to undifferent you. It's trying to meld two people together. And so there's all these forces that are constantly pushing and pulling [01:16:55] at us that it is a journey.

[01:16:56] Ryan: And if people like what I'm saying, or think I'm differentiated [01:17:00] and maybe have some secret wisdom, great, but I'm not there yet. And part of what I'm doing, even right now [01:17:05] in today, is an example of me trying to do that is it's scary to do this. If I'm totally honest. [01:17:10] It would be safer not to do this. I've wanted to talk about all this stuff for a long time.

[01:17:14] Ryan: And I was [01:17:15] afraid because other people's feelings, I was like, oh, I don't want to induce that 'cause that will make me feel upset. [01:17:20] And I couldn't differentiate myself and what I thought was interesting or the ideas that I wanted to talk about from [01:17:25] what other people would feel about it. And it is, I, all I can say is that my personal journey has [01:17:30] been life so much more fun.

[01:17:31] Ryan: When you get to be yourself, you're not worried about everyone else constantly. You get to do [01:17:35] silly things. You get to make jokes that, yeah, they might upset someone, but you know, your friends are gonna laugh at it. And [01:17:40] that's great. I, I want to be able to have. The fun and the freedom that I have [01:17:45] learned and, you know, fought for in my life.

[01:17:47] Ryan: I wanna bring that to other people. 'cause I've been in those positions and [01:17:50] often in moments in my life still am. Um, so I always wanna make sure that, you know, sometimes people see [01:17:55] therapists and they're like, oh, they have it all good. We get idolized by, you know, by clients. They go like they have it all together.

[01:17:59] Ryan: We [01:18:00] don't, we are figuring out just like everyone, and it is a process. There's no finish [01:18:05] line. It is just an ongoing journey that you can increase your competency in, um, as kind of we've [01:18:10] talked about. You gotta put in the work to do that.

[01:18:12] Stephanie: I think that's a really positive note to end on. [01:18:15]

[01:18:15] Ryan: Sounds good. Well, I appreciate so much.

[01:18:17] Ryan: How are you having me on today?

[01:18:19] Stephanie: Ryan [01:18:20] Malice. Where can people find you?

[01:18:21] Ryan: Um, you can find me@ryanmalice.com is my [01:18:25] website just for psychotherapy training, supervision, consultation. You can find me on [01:18:30] Twitter at um, vir, at Virtual msw. Um, I like to make [01:18:35] jokes be silly and, um. Sometimes get angry about psychotherapy.[01:18:40]

[01:18:40] Stephanie: Thanks so much for, uh, coming on the podcast today. It's been a pleasure. You

[01:18:43] Ryan: are welcome. [01:18:45]

[01:18:45] Stephanie: Thank you for listening to you Must Be Some Kind of Therapist. [01:18:50] If you enjoyed this episode, kindly take a moment to rate, review, share, or [01:18:55] comment on it using your platform of choice. And of course, please remember, [01:19:00] podcasts are not therapy and I'm not your therapist.

[01:19:04] Stephanie: Special [01:19:05] thanks to Joey Rero for this awesome theme song, half Awake and to Pods [01:19:10] by Nick for production. For help navigating the impact of the gender craze [01:19:15] on your family, be sure to check out my program for parents, [01:19:20] ROGD Repair. Any resource you heard mentioned on this show [01:19:25] plus how to get in touch with me can all be found in the notes and links below [01:19:30] Rain or shine.

[01:19:31] Stephanie: I hope you will step outside to breathe the air today [01:19:35] in the words of Max Airman. With all its sham, drudgery and [01:19:40] broken dreams, it is still a beautiful [01:19:45] [01:19:50] [01:19:55] [01:20:00] [01:20:05] [01:20:10] [01:20:15] world.