You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist

209. Dean Broyles
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[00:00:00] Dean Broyles: What's happening in this context is very Orwellian. It's big brother of the [00:00:05] state saying, Hey, if you don't agree a hundred percent with our sexual orthodoxy, you're a [00:00:10] heretic and you need to be silenced and suppressed and really, [00:00:15] they bully you. Ironically, in the name of ending harassment and bullying.

[00:00:18] Dean Broyles: They're really bullying [00:00:20] and harassing a lot of religious folks. And I actually confronted a educator several [00:00:25] years ago and I said, you're trying to protect the L-G-B-T-Q identifying students from bullying [00:00:30] harassment. But what about all the other kids who have a different worldview? How do you think [00:00:35] they're feeling?

[00:00:35] Dean Broyles: Do they think they feel safe and welcome and accepted? Public schools, a [00:00:40] lot of 'em don't. It's a problem. It's a big problem that nobody's talking about. [00:00:45]

[00:00:45] Stephanie Winn: You must be some kind of therapist.[00:00:50]

[00:00:51] Stephanie Winn: Today my guest is Dean Broyles. He is a constitutional attorney [00:00:55] who serves as the president of the National Center for Law and Policy. He's an advocate for free [00:01:00] speech, religious freedom, and parental rights, with extensive experience involving sexual identity [00:01:05] issues in the courts culture and public schools.

[00:01:07] Stephanie Winn: Dean regularly files amicus briefs at the [00:01:10] US Supreme Court in landmark cases and has spearheaded the effort in California to protect religious [00:01:15] teachers from aggressive gender identity training. Dean, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining us.

[00:01:19] Dean Broyles: It's great [00:01:20] to be with you, Stephanie.

[00:01:21] Stephanie Winn: So I had a recent episode, as you know, with Laura [00:01:25] Powell talking about, uh, Mirabel versus Bonta at the [00:01:30] Supreme Court, and we're going to pick up where that conversation left off, talk about Mirabelli [00:01:35] as well as other issues affecting teachers, public schools, parental [00:01:40] rights, the future of how we as a nation handle these issues.

[00:01:44] Stephanie Winn: I think [00:01:45] you wanted to give a summary of Mirabelli for those who might not have listened to that episode with Laura [00:01:50] or might otherwise not know what's going on.

[00:01:52] Dean Broyles: Sure. Yeah, it's great to be with you today. [00:01:55] Um, I just wanna kind of back up and. I think everybody's heard about [00:02:00] the Supreme Court ruling, but I wanna lay some of the groundwork for the ruling and, and how it [00:02:05] relates to both parental rights and teacher rights.

[00:02:08] Dean Broyles: So I wanna kind of back up [00:02:10] and, and talk about the underlying case. And it's been going on, um, [00:02:15] since it's late 2022, early 2023, and there's been a lot of litigation back and [00:02:20] forth. And so it's a multi-year case and it's only barely out of the district [00:02:25] court right now, but, um, it started in, uh, uh, [00:02:30] the Escondido Unified School District, which is North County San Diego.

[00:02:33] Dean Broyles: I actually happen to live [00:02:35] in Escondido, and I'm in following case very carefully and I know the [00:02:40] parties involved and I actually know the attorneys involved, and they're a great, great group of people. [00:02:45] But it started off really as two teachers objecting [00:02:50] to what we'll call the gender secrets policy. And that's been a policy that's been promoted here in [00:02:55] California through various.

[00:02:57] Dean Broyles: Legislations and interpretations and [00:03:00] misinterpretations of legislation that basically says that the [00:03:05] school's, uh, public edu education, um, school districts and schools and teachers, [00:03:10] um, should not share a child's, um, [00:03:15] self-expressed gender identity, um, at school unless they have the [00:03:20] consent of the student, um, the minor child.

[00:03:23] Dean Broyles: So what that [00:03:25] really has developed and is a lot of different policies and practices. One is, is the [00:03:30] statement that, um, teachers and educators don't have the ability to [00:03:35] share with parents what's happening with the their child as far as gender incongruence or gender dysphoria, [00:03:40] unless, like I said, they had the, uh, student's consent.

[00:03:44] Dean Broyles: [00:03:45] Also, it led to transition social transitioning, starting to happen to school. With [00:03:50] teachers instructed to use the student self-selected pronouns to use the self [00:03:55] student, self-selected alternative names that might not match their, uh, [00:04:00] sex, uh, biological sex, um, or the, the sex they're treated as is home [00:04:05] at home.

[00:04:06] Dean Broyles: And so, um, this, these policies have been kind of [00:04:10] codified, um, at local school districts and really pushed and promoted [00:04:15] aggressively from the California Department of Education. And so these [00:04:20] teachers just said, Hey, we're, they were Catholic, uh, Catholic, Christian [00:04:25] background. And they said, we, uh, don't feel comfortable keeping [00:04:30] secrets from parents and concealing information from parents and lying to parents, especially [00:04:35] when it comes to issues that deal with a child's health, safety and welfare.

[00:04:39] Dean Broyles: And [00:04:40] so they filed a lawsuit. Um, ultimately the lawsuit grew and expanded [00:04:45] as it was litigated over time and. Actually there, a class [00:04:50] action was developed, um, about, about a year ago, [00:04:55] and there was a class of parents that joined, uh, the lawsuit, a class of teachers [00:05:00] that joined the lawsuit, all who various, for various reasons objected to, [00:05:05] uh, the gender secrets policies and practices in public schools.

[00:05:08] Stephanie Winn: So that's the background [00:05:10] behind how Mirabelli ended up at the Supreme Court. And it's my [00:05:15] understanding that it's not settled, but that some sort of statement [00:05:20] has been made that, uh, we looking on our fighting, [00:05:25] encouraging, that's what I talked to Laura about last time. Can you summarize that? I'm, I'm not good at [00:05:30] legal terminology.

[00:05:30] Stephanie Winn: I never know how to put these things.

[00:05:32] Dean Broyles: Uh, yeah, absolutely. So [00:05:35] it, the good news, I guess. And people who are concerned with, [00:05:40] uh, the gender ideology agenda that's occurring, uh, nationwide and worldwide right [00:05:45] now, is that the judge really came down on the side of [00:05:50] parental rights very strongly and in his underlying, uh, opinion.[00:05:55]

[00:05:55] Dean Broyles: Um, and the motion for summary judgment, where the basically after [00:06:00] litigating the case, you know, both sides follow their evidence. And [00:06:05] Judge Bonita is here in San Diego County and the US District Court ruled against the state of [00:06:10] California. And I'll, I'll just read a critical sentence from Ms. Conclusion or a [00:06:15] couple sentences.

[00:06:16] Dean Broyles: He says, although parental involvement is essential to the [00:06:20] healthy maturation of school children, California's public school system, parental [00:06:25] exclusion policies place a communication barrier between parents. [00:06:30] Teachers, some parents who do not want such barriers may have the wherewithal to place [00:06:35] their children in private schools or homeschool, or to move them to a [00:06:40] different public school district.

[00:06:41] Dean Broyles: Families in the middle or lower socioeconomic [00:06:45] circumstances have no such options For these parents in new policy appears to [00:06:50] undermine their own constitutional rights while it conflicts with the knowledgeable medical [00:06:55] opinion. And I'll just say parenthetically, in that case, there were several expert [00:07:00] witnesses who said, when children are suffering or struggling or experiencing, [00:07:05] um, gender incongruence or gender dysphoria.

[00:07:09] Dean Broyles: In [00:07:10] almost every instance, it's best to have the parents engaged and involved in the [00:07:15] process and be consulting with the parents. So that was the, the testimony that was given that, [00:07:20] that the court relied on for that. The, the judge went on to say, the state defendants are, in [00:07:25] essence ask, asking this court to limit and restrict a common sense and [00:07:30] legally sound description by the United States Supreme Court of parental rights [00:07:35] that this court will not do.

[00:07:37] Dean Broyles: Although a state, as previously stated, the state's [00:07:40] desire to protect vulnerable children from harassment and discrimination is laudable [00:07:45] the parental exclusion policies create a t trifecta of harm. [00:07:50] They harm the child who needs parental guidance and possibly mental health intervention to, [00:07:55] to determine if the incongruence is organic or whether it is a result of [00:08:00] bullying, peer pressure or fleeting impulse.

[00:08:03] Dean Broyles: They harm the parents by [00:08:05] depriving them of the long recognized 14th Amendment right to care and make health decisions for their [00:08:10] children. And by substantially burdening many parents' First Amendment's rights to train their [00:08:15] children in their sincerely held religious beliefs. And finally, they harm [00:08:20] teachers who are compelled to violate the sincerely held beliefs of the parents [00:08:25] by forcing them to conceal information they feel is critical for the welfare of the students.[00:08:30]

[00:08:30] Dean Broyles: And that was signed on December 22nd, 2025 [00:08:35] by Judge Bonita, and I was in the hearing that was both sides argued [00:08:40] for over eight hours on, on both sides of that issue. And then what happened is it [00:08:45] as, as, uh, Ms. Powell, um, confirmed last week or, or [00:08:50] in your previous podcast, it went to the ninth Circuit and ninth Circuit.

[00:08:54] Dean Broyles: Um, [00:08:55] granted a temporary stay of a permanent statewide injunction. So Benitas [00:09:00] took that ruling and turned it into a permanent statewide injunction. And, [00:09:05] um, what happened was the, the Ninth Circuit, [00:09:10] um, went ahead and stated it, and it was a real, it was not a good opinion, it was just a [00:09:15] very negative, cursory opinion.

[00:09:17] Dean Broyles: And I was predicting after I read it [00:09:20] that it was gonna be overturned very quickly by the US Supreme Court, and I was surprised how quickly it was [00:09:25] overturned. The Supreme Court on March 2nd, overturned the Ninth Circuit's, [00:09:30] um, temporary stay and reinstated, um, the permanent [00:09:35] statewide injunction as to the gender secrets policies, um, as to [00:09:40] under the parental rights analysis, they didn't make a firm decision on [00:09:45] the teacher rights involved, but they did rule on parental rights.

[00:09:48] Dean Broyles: But, but in the [00:09:50] ruling, the statewide injunction. Uh, has some good language and good news for both [00:09:55] teachers and parents, but I'll share in a minute.

[00:09:57] Stephanie Winn: Well, what's the good news?

[00:09:58] Dean Broyles: The district [00:10:00] court issued a statewide injunction. Part of the language in that statewide injunction was [00:10:05] language that they needed to include in any training, any training they did of [00:10:10] parents, any training they did of students or even teachers when it came to gender [00:10:15] identity.

[00:10:15] Dean Broyles: And so, um, the judge specifically wrote, judge [00:10:20] Bonita wrote, defendant shall include in a prominent place in Prism training [00:10:25] materials and in any other state approved or created instructions on the gender related [00:10:30] rights of students and faculty. The following statement. This is a [00:10:35] quoting from the the language that's actually now on the California Department Education's [00:10:40] website.

[00:10:40] Dean Broyles: And in the Prism training and other trainings, it says, parents and [00:10:45] guardians have a federal constitutional right to be informed if their [00:10:50] public school student expresses gender incongruence. So number one, [00:10:55] parents have a right to be informed. And it goes on to say, teachers and schools have a federal [00:11:00] constitutional right to accurately inform the parent or guardian of their student [00:11:05] when the student expresses gender UNC incongruence.

[00:11:09] Dean Broyles: So [00:11:10] teachers have a right to inform parents, okay, so parents have a right to be informed and teachers have a [00:11:15] right to, and schools have a right to inform them. And then here's a key quote. These federal [00:11:20] constitutional rights are superior to any state or local laws, state or local [00:11:25] regulations, or state or local policies.

[00:11:28] Dean Broyles: To the contrary. [00:11:30] And that gets to something that, um, you know, we learned in first year [00:11:35] constitutional law. Uh, we, it talks about the, the federal supremacy clause that if [00:11:40] there's a federal constitutional right or a federal statute in [00:11:45] place, um, and that'll come into play with teacher rights in a minute, um, that actually [00:11:50] supersedes any state right to the contrary.

[00:11:52] Dean Broyles: And, and that, that's important here because the state of [00:11:55] California had been arguing that, um, their policy [00:12:00] protected the safety of students and it protected the privacy of students. [00:12:05] So the reason the state of California said it could keep secrets from parents is to [00:12:10] protect the safety and privacy of students.

[00:12:12] Dean Broyles: And what the judge was saying, there is [00:12:15] no parental rights protected by the First Amendment and by the 14th Amendment, which we'll talk about in [00:12:20] a minute, um, those actually supersede state law and any privacy [00:12:25] claims or. Or other claims to the contrary.

[00:12:28] Stephanie Winn: Yeah, the really bizarre thing I [00:12:30] talked about this with Laura as well, is that when it comes to the safety and privacy of students, that that's being [00:12:35] treated as if the parents are a threat to that rather, rather than the people the absolutely [00:12:40] most concerned with that.

[00:12:41] Stephanie Winn: Now, um, you mentioned both [00:12:45] parents and teachers having a right to. Um, be [00:12:50] informed and to inform respectively. Uh, but this raises the question of what [00:12:55] is the teacher's obligation? Um, because we have a broad variety of teachers in [00:13:00] California, I'm sure as a conservative lawyer, you help teachers [00:13:05] who might be looking for protection for their religious beliefs, which I think you have, [00:13:10] um, some expertise there to fill us in on.

[00:13:12] Stephanie Winn: Um, but then of course we also have. [00:13:15] Teachers who've drank the Kool-Aid, who, uh, maybe see themselves as, as I discussed [00:13:20] with Laura, as having some sort of, um, well, they wouldn't see themselves as having a savior complex. [00:13:25] That's how I would label it from the outside, you know? But they see themselves as a, a sort of righteous [00:13:30] rescuer of this poor, oppressed, trans child from their bigoted parents.

[00:13:34] Stephanie Winn: And, [00:13:35] and if that is their sincerely held belief, as much as you and I might [00:13:40] disagree with it, what do we know and what do we not know at this point in time about a teacher's [00:13:45] obligation to inform the parents rather than just the right of teachers who [00:13:50] choose to, to inform the parents?

[00:13:52] Dean Broyles: Yeah. So the court hasn't yet [00:13:55] said that, um, in every instance, the parents [00:14:00] have to be informed by a specific teacher.

[00:14:03] Dean Broyles: But, um, [00:14:05] if, if we kind of jump to the Supreme Court ruling, um, the Supreme [00:14:10] Court, both in the pro opinion that was issued on March 2nd. [00:14:15] In the concurrence and even in the dissent, they acknowledge that parents had rights [00:14:20] to know. And so, and that's that it's a healthcare issue, right? It's a mental [00:14:25] health issue.

[00:14:26] Dean Broyles: Right. So it would kind of [00:14:30] follow logically that if it really is a mental health issue and parents have right to [00:14:35] know that, that somebody who knows, has a, in a, [00:14:40] you know, a position of knowledge and authority in local apprentice in public schools, [00:14:45] that they would need at some point have an obligation to tell the parents.

[00:14:49] Dean Broyles: The [00:14:50] courts haven't really come out and, and said that yet, but it's kind of, [00:14:55] I think, where the case is going. Because if it is a mental health issue and the parents have [00:15:00] the right to know whether the parents affirm or don't affirm the child's identity, right? [00:15:05] Um, they, they're the ones who love the child, know the child best and are.

[00:15:09] Dean Broyles: [00:15:10] Most likely to get them mental health, uh, care, um, when they need it, right? And [00:15:15] so, um, if parents have a right to know and schools know, [00:15:20] then it's probably gonna be become an issue at some point that [00:15:25] somebody has an obligation to tell 'em whether it's an administrator or a counselor at the school or a [00:15:30] teacher.

[00:15:30] Dean Broyles: Uh, the court has not ruled yet. The individual teachers [00:15:35] have to tell parents if they know, but there is, there is [00:15:40] a broader statement that the, the school can't conceal it either. So, [00:15:45] um, where this is really. Come up is in rec school records, right? So [00:15:50] what schools in California have done is they've, they've got these shadow records, these [00:15:55] second set of records from the official records, the official records of the student would [00:16:00] have their name and biological sex that, that they're registered as, [00:16:05] um, by their parents.

[00:16:06] Dean Broyles: But the shadow records of the second file would be a [00:16:10] file that would have the students' gender identity and their personal pronouns [00:16:15] and what bathrooms they wanna use and, and, uh, those types of things in the file. [00:16:20] And that those files have been kept from parents intentionally by school [00:16:25] districts. And I've, I've heard about and seen copies of these files and it's pretty [00:16:30] outrageous.

[00:16:30] Dean Broyles: But, but what, kind of getting to what you were saying earlier, [00:16:35] that whole system assumes that, um, all [00:16:40] parents or most of the parents are unfit. That they're, and that, that you're [00:16:45] automatically unfit if you don't affirm, automatically. Affirm. Um, and [00:16:50] so that, that, and it assumes that the state knows better [00:16:55] and the state being, you know, teachers or school guidance counselors know better than the [00:17:00] parents do.

[00:17:00] Dean Broyles: Right? And so it's basically, um, you know, [00:17:05] stealing or, or stealing parental rights away from parents and, and giving them to the [00:17:10] state when the state doesn't necessarily love your child, the state doesn't necessarily know your child that does [00:17:15] state doesn't necessarily have your child's best interest in mind.

[00:17:18] Dean Broyles: They may have an ideological [00:17:20] agenda that, that, that conflicts with your, your parental rights and your family, uh, [00:17:25] your family's religious beliefs. So it's very disquieting and [00:17:30] unsettling to think in the Democratic or republic that we would have any system in [00:17:35] place that assumes parents are unfit automatically and starts.

[00:17:39] Dean Broyles: [00:17:40] Concealing, uh, information from them and starts, uh, socially transitioning a [00:17:45] child in a very touch and go, um, uh, you know, [00:17:50] issue, uh, for counseling and, and psychiatrists, which is gender dysphoria or gender [00:17:55] incongruence.

[00:17:55] Stephanie Winn: Let's talk about those shadow files. Um, so I know of [00:18:00] forms that students are asked to fill out with their personal [00:18:05] information and, you know, to check a box saying whether or not [00:18:10] you want the teacher to refer to you by the same pronouns [00:18:15] when they're talking to your parents as when they're calling your name in class.

[00:18:19] Stephanie Winn: [00:18:20] Um, is, is that the extent of it? Or, or is there more to these shadow files? [00:18:25]

[00:18:25] Dean Broyles: Yeah, there can be more. I mean, sometimes they're, they're thin and they just have, you know. [00:18:30] Check the box for name, check the box for pronoun, check the box for bathroom or [00:18:35] sports teams or things of that nature. But often, um, what what will [00:18:40] happen is, you know, teachers and the guidance counselor, maybe administrators will come [00:18:45] together and they'll create a, what, what's called a gender support plan, [00:18:50] right?

[00:18:51] Dean Broyles: Where it's not just a student saying, this is what I want, you know, [00:18:55] please oblige me. It's the school kind of cooperating without [00:19:00] student to socially transition them, um, [00:19:05] behind their parents' backs. And so it's, it's, it's a little bit more [00:19:10] nefarious and involved. And sometimes the, the school guidance counselors and [00:19:15] teachers are, are, are pushing the child in that direction and cheerleading the [00:19:20] child, um, in a way without looking at their.

[00:19:23] Dean Broyles: Potentially other [00:19:25] under underlying mental health problems that could be, uh, involved. So, [00:19:30] uh, it's very problematic

[00:19:32] Stephanie Winn: and you would think, uh, if [00:19:35] everyone were operating from common sense that [00:19:40] the teachers, administrators, counselors would [00:19:45] have some sense of what all else was going on with that kid that might [00:19:50] have led to the gender identity issue.

[00:19:52] Stephanie Winn: I mean, we've heard many stories of a [00:19:55] kid getting bullied until they came out as trans and then being popular or at [00:20:00] least protected. Um, you know, we've, we've seen many instances of things like that where you [00:20:05] would think any adult in the kid's life at school would see that. And [00:20:10] have their heckles go up in the same way that my heckles went up as a [00:20:15] therapist when I was seeing kids claiming to be trans after knowing what else they'd been through [00:20:20] in their lives.

[00:20:20] Stephanie Winn: Right? It was seeing that, putting the pieces together that got me questioning the whole [00:20:25] thing. But unfortunately, I think we, we do know that, [00:20:30] um, even when, okay, let's take a situation [00:20:35] where there is a known abusive parent and that has already been dealt with [00:20:40] legally, and that person has lost custody, uh, let's say the boy's [00:20:45] with mom because dad's in jail.

[00:20:47] Stephanie Winn: Okay? Like even in a situation [00:20:50] like that, right, where everyone at school knows about what happened to his [00:20:55] dad, you know, where, where common sense would go, oh, this boy doesn't [00:21:00] wanna be like his dad. Of course, he doesn't wanna be like his dad. You know, do you think that might have [00:21:05] anything to do with him saying he's a girl, you know?

[00:21:09] Stephanie Winn: Um, but we're [00:21:10] not seeing that common sense in teachers and counselors. [00:21:15] We're seeing common sense go out the window when gender identity [00:21:20] enters the picture,

[00:21:20] Dean Broyles: and that's the unfortunate price of locking parents [00:21:25] out of the conversation. Right. You don't have the history in the background and information [00:21:30] that may be helpful to explain what's [00:21:35] happening and that it's, you know, there, I mean, I'm not an expert on [00:21:40] social contagion and, and social movements, but, um, I'm, I know a [00:21:45] lot of people are starting to look at this spike that we, that occurred in the last decade or so [00:21:50] with trans identifying students as a real, it was, it became like pop a [00:21:55] popular thing to be and do.

[00:21:56] Dean Broyles: And so you were, and uh, there's a lot of, [00:22:00] um, peer pressure in that direction and so. Not just from, you know, fellow [00:22:05] students, but teachers and administrators and in, in popular culture. And [00:22:10] so, um, you know, I'm, I'm not saying that there aren't people who [00:22:15] really, genuinely struggle with, with gender incongruence or gender dysphoria, but I [00:22:20] think the numbers are much lower.

[00:22:22] Dean Broyles: If you, if you remove other factors and treat [00:22:25] other underlying issues, then, then people think they're,

[00:22:27] Stephanie Winn: so tell us about more the, uh, [00:22:30] religious accommodation angle.

[00:22:32] Dean Broyles: Before I jump into that, I just want to [00:22:35] talk about the Supreme Court ruling. 'cause it relates to that, it kind of sets the table for that. [00:22:40] Um, so let me, um, not, I won't, I won't beat a dead horse 'cause I know you went [00:22:45] over it already with another guest.

[00:22:46] Dean Broyles: But, uh, the Supreme Court's opinion was very [00:22:50] important. Um, not only because it's a Supreme Court, but because [00:22:55] there are, um, really important ideas that [00:23:00] are expressed here. And so. What the Supreme Court did is [00:23:05] they didn't rule on everything that had been ruled upon in, in the local [00:23:10] district court. What they did is they focused really on parental rights, but I'll talk about in a [00:23:15] minute how those parental rights affect teacher rights.

[00:23:16] Dean Broyles: So basically, you know, they were [00:23:20] addressing the, the gender secrets policy and the, and the names and pronouns, issues that we've been talking [00:23:25] about, and, and whether the district court got it right or [00:23:30] whether the ninth Circuit was right in, in reversing that, uh, permanent injunction. [00:23:35] And essentially what the US Supreme Court did is they, they said no, the district [00:23:40] court was right, uh, particularly on the issue of.

[00:23:43] Dean Broyles: Parental rights. They [00:23:45] didn't decide, uh, teacher rights. And that's important for, I'll talk about that [00:23:50] in a minute. But what the, what the Supreme Court did is they said, yeah, this, the [00:23:55] parents win or, or are likely to prevail, um, [00:24:00] because this is a preliminary injunction standard. So, uh, when, when they rule in [00:24:05] favor of someone, they say, what's a likelihood of success on the merits?

[00:24:07] Dean Broyles: And so because the case [00:24:10] was coming up on an emergency basis, they were basically saying, if the case comes back to [00:24:15] us, um, we think here's, here's why they would most likely [00:24:20] win. And so it's not a permanent decision on the merits, but [00:24:25] it's a, but this is a very detailed, uh, uh, decision. Um, and [00:24:30] the court said parents are likely to win for two reasons.

[00:24:33] Dean Broyles: Number one is [00:24:35] a first Amendment right, I'll talk about. And number two is a 14th amendment right. [00:24:40] The first Amendment right goes back to a case that was decided last summer [00:24:45] called Maud versus Taylor. And in that case, Marilyn [00:24:50] had a policy and practice of reading L-G-B-T-Q themed, [00:24:55] uh, story books and having different exercises and instruction and [00:25:00] sprinkled throughout the curriculum.

[00:25:02] Dean Broyles: And parents had asked for a right to be [00:25:05] notified. Religious parents had asked for a right to be notified and be able to opt out of [00:25:10] those lessons when they came up. And originally the school district said, yeah, we're [00:25:15] gonna, we'll do that. We'll notify you and allow you to opt out. Well, they got so many opt-out requests that, that they [00:25:20] actually shut it down and said, no, we're gonna take away that now that, right now that we gave it to you.[00:25:25]

[00:25:25] Dean Broyles: And so, um, ba so they got sued and went to the Supreme Court. [00:25:30] And Supreme Court said that, um, parents have a First [00:25:35] Amendment religious free exercise right. To instill [00:25:40] religion in their children, to pass on their faith to the next generation. [00:25:45] And the case they relied on was a case from 1973 involving the [00:25:50] Amish and, uh, back in 1973 in a case called versus Wisconsin [00:25:55] vs.

[00:25:55] Dean Broyles: Yoder, the Amish said, uh, American High [00:26:00] School is so, um, um, culturally [00:26:05] antithetical to our values as a community that we don't want our [00:26:10] kids to go to public schools after the eighth grade. We don't want compulsory education for [00:26:15] Amish children after the eighth grade. And you know what? The US Supreme Court agreed with them.

[00:26:19] Dean Broyles: They [00:26:20] said, yeah, you know, this, the values undermined or taught in, [00:26:25] uh, American high schools, um, undermine your religious Amish faith. So we're gonna [00:26:30] allow you to take your kids outta school after 14, uh, you know, when they're in eighth [00:26:35] grade if you want to. And so what the court said in the UD [00:26:40] case is, um, when lessons are taught [00:26:45] not just L-G-B-T-Q lessons, but when lessons are taught that substantially interfere, [00:26:50] undermine with the religious faith that a parent is trying to pass onto a child, [00:26:55] that parents have a right to notify the school, that they wanna be [00:27:00] told ahead of time that the lesson is occurring, number one and number two is the right to be able to [00:27:05] opt out from it.

[00:27:06] Dean Broyles: And the Supreme Court yeah, said yes, we could, we will protect the [00:27:10] religious beliefs of families by, uh, requiring notification opt out. And this is [00:27:15] really what the, the First Amendment requires. And so that was a big win, but it was [00:27:20] a big win, really only for religious parents in this area, right? There may [00:27:25] be non-religious parents, um, who object to gender ident identity [00:27:30] ideology and might wanna be notified and opt out of that, for example.

[00:27:33] Dean Broyles: So. [00:27:35] That the reason I give you that background is because now, [00:27:40] um, the Supreme Court in Maribel said, no, we're, we're not just ruling in [00:27:45] favor of religious parents and the right to pass on their faith. We're actually ruling under the [00:27:50] 14th amendment that all parents have a right to, [00:27:55] um, um, opt out of this or be excused from this kind of, um, [00:28:00] activity.

[00:28:00] Dean Broyles: And what they said is that parents have a right into the 14th [00:28:05] Amendment to direct the care and education of their children. Right. So that, that [00:28:10] was, those are cases dating back to a hundred years ago involving, you know, whether parents could [00:28:15] send their kids to Catholic schools, like a ca, a old case from 1923 called Pierce [00:28:20] Versus Society of Sisters.

[00:28:21] Dean Broyles: And fast forwarding to today, there's been other Supreme Court [00:28:25] cases that have said the parental right to direct the care and education of your children. [00:28:30] Um, extends to healthcare decisions and it also extends to mental healthcare [00:28:35] decisions in a state, a case called Parham. And so, um, the [00:28:40] court in Maribel said, you know, in addition to the religious parents having religious [00:28:45] objections, um, non-religious parents or any parent can [00:28:50] have an objection to these materials and can ask to, um, [00:28:55] not be a part of this.

[00:28:55] Dean Broyles: And what the, what the court said is, parents not the state have the [00:29:00] primary authority to, to, with respect to the upbringing and education of children. [00:29:05] The right protected by these precedents includes the [00:29:10] right not to be shut out of participation in decisions regarding their children's [00:29:15] mental health.

[00:29:16] Dean Broyles: And so, um, the court also [00:29:20] said. California's, uh, gender secrets policies likely violate [00:29:25] the parental rights to direct the, the healthcare and, um, mental [00:29:30] health decisions of their children. Right. So that makes sense also. So there's [00:29:35] a, there's a religious right under the first amendment of parents. There's the, the, what we'll call the [00:29:40] secular right under the 14th amendment of parents, um, to, to make decisions [00:29:45] about their healthcare.

[00:29:45] Dean Broyles: So, um, that, that is a real, real strong [00:29:50] affirmation by the US Supreme Court that parents not the state, should [00:29:55] be the primary ones making these decisions and not having their religious [00:30:00] beliefs or choices undermined by secrets

[00:30:02] Stephanie Winn: it seems like. Really good [00:30:05] news in theory and then in practice. I wonder how it [00:30:10] works when you think about how baked in the DEI [00:30:15] stuff is to curriculum.

[00:30:16] Stephanie Winn: I mean, it's one thing to know [00:30:20] that your kid is in a health class, which has a unit [00:30:25] at precisely six weeks into the first semester of seventh grade where [00:30:30] they talk about this and that, and you ask to review the curriculum and then you decide [00:30:35] to excuse your kid from that class. Like that's one thing when it's compartmentalized [00:30:40] like that.

[00:30:40] Stephanie Winn: But I think in real life it seems like the lines aren't so [00:30:45] neatly drawn. What are your thoughts on that?

[00:30:48] Dean Broyles: A lot of parents, [00:30:50] you know, are afraid to opt their kids out, um, because you [00:30:55] know, they don't wanna be seen as those parents, right? Or they don't want their [00:31:00] kid to be ostracized or bullied, or. And so, [00:31:05] um, there, there's that issue.

[00:31:07] Dean Broyles: Some parents are afraid to opt their kids out even if they can't. [00:31:10] Um, what we developed, and we'll be talking about this, [00:31:15] you know, at a statewide webinar coming up next month, um, on parental rights and [00:31:20] teacher rights is, um, what organizations like ours are encouraging parents [00:31:25] to do is, um, understand generally what's in the [00:31:30] curriculum.

[00:31:31] Dean Broyles: Figure out what their religious beliefs are. If it's a religious parent, for [00:31:35] example, and communicate at the beginning of the school year, Hey, [00:31:40] here are my sincerely have religious beliefs. Here are my, um, [00:31:45] um, here, here are things in the curriculum that you may be teaching [00:31:50] that will conflict with them, and I wanna be notified and, and have the right to [00:31:55] opt out.

[00:31:55] Dean Broyles: And that kind of puts the burden then after UD on the [00:32:00] district. To notify parents when they teach things that they know are gonna be on the [00:32:05] parents' checklist. And some parents could have very short checklists. It could be just L-G-B-T-Q [00:32:10] stuff. It could be, you know, some people are offended [00:32:15] by evolution being taught as a, a scientific fact versus a [00:32:20] scientific theory, things of that nature.

[00:32:21] Dean Broyles: But, you know, parents might be [00:32:25] object to, um, witchcraft being taught as coal and things of that, that [00:32:30] nature. So it's not just L-G-B-T-Q issues that parents can opt out of, [00:32:35] it's, it's other things too. And so we're developing resources where parents [00:32:40] can identify their beliefs and objections and ask to be opt out.

[00:32:44] Dean Broyles: And, [00:32:45] um, by law now after Mahmud, the school has to honor their rights. Um, [00:32:50] if, unless the school somehow can successfully argue, which would be hard for them [00:32:55] to do, that it doesn't substantially burden. Uh, the rights of parents to pass on their faith to their [00:33:00] child, which is gonna be as something the school doesn't want to get into.

[00:33:04] Dean Broyles: But, but [00:33:05] you're right. You know, practically will parents, a lot of parents use that, [00:33:10] right? Um, I'm hoping it they, because that's, that's one of the [00:33:15] problems I think in public education today and why so many people are fleeing public education [00:33:20] is it's become much more ide ideological, not just on transgender [00:33:25] issues, but on a number of issues and, and not respecting the rights of [00:33:30] different communities and different religious groups who, who are, are [00:33:35] undermined and offended by what's being taught.

[00:33:37] Dean Broyles: And so I think if we're gonna ha [00:33:40] public school as much as possible needs to be neutral and not, not be going [00:33:45] around throwing elbows and defending people. And I think public education can do a better [00:33:50] job of that. And I'm hoping that enough parents start opting out. So it kind of cleans [00:33:55] up things to where we're back to teaching.

[00:33:57] Dean Broyles: Reading, writing, math and science [00:34:00] rather than ideologies that not everybody agrees with.

[00:34:03] Stephanie Winn: In practice, [00:34:05] if a parent goes through those steps and [00:34:10] notifies the school, here are my objections to certain types of content, [00:34:15] um, and then they find out that their wishes have not been honored, what recourse do they have?

[00:34:19] Stephanie Winn: [00:34:20] What steps can they take? Is there a file? Like can they file a complaint? Who's [00:34:25] accountable?

[00:34:25] Dean Broyles: So, good question. Um, they do have legal rights and you know, it's [00:34:30] not necessarily to get money damages if their rights are violated. Typically these cases [00:34:35] involve mostly what we call injunctive and declaratory relief.

[00:34:38] Dean Broyles: Um, we [00:34:40] handled a case in Encinitas, for example, where the district, um, [00:34:45] not only taught gender ideology, but had these Catholic Christian students [00:34:50] participate in the mentoring of kindergartners and gender ideology and was very [00:34:55] coercive stuff and. Um, you know, we're, we filed a [00:35:00] lawsuit and we we're prevailing in that, but, um, typically what you would get is, [00:35:05] is an injunctive relief, like, like happened in Bare Belly, where the court [00:35:10] says, you know, stop doing this,

[00:35:12] Stephanie Winn: right?

[00:35:12] Dean Broyles: Knock it off. So in, in [00:35:15] our case, um, in Encinitas, the district adopted a policy [00:35:20] pursuant to Mahmud that says, we're gonna notify parents and allow you to opt out now, which is how [00:35:25] all the parents were asking for all along. They said, Hey, if we we're not telling you you can't [00:35:30] teach this stuff, even though we have ideological differences with you, what we are [00:35:35] telling you is just let us know and let, allow us to opt out to protect our kid and their [00:35:40] conscience.

[00:35:40] Dean Broyles: If, if, if you do it, and the district said, no, we're gonna, the district was [00:35:45] brazen. They said, we're, we're gonna keep teaching it. We're not gonna tell you when we're [00:35:50] teaching it, and we're not gonna allow you to opt out, be notified, or opt out. I mean, so. [00:35:55] That's very, in my, in my mind, that's un-American.

[00:35:57] Dean Broyles: That's very, that's very [00:36:00] anti parent. It's anti-family, it's anti-religion. It's not what we're supposed to be [00:36:05] about here in the United States. So

[00:36:06] Stephanie Winn: another place where I can see this running into some [00:36:10] problems in the execution is, um, how [00:36:15] schools handle student gender transitions [00:36:20] when, let's say, let's say that a school is in compliance.

[00:36:23] Stephanie Winn: So let's say [00:36:25] that a school is honoring the parent's right to being [00:36:30] notified, um, and the school and parent are in communication. [00:36:35] And let's say you have, uh, some affirming parents in a [00:36:40] school who think it's great that their kid. Uses some other [00:36:45] name and pronouns as and is getting on board this medical [00:36:50] conveyor belt.

[00:36:51] Stephanie Winn: And those are their sincerely held beliefs that, that this is a good [00:36:55] thing, right? And that tho those students with those gender identities [00:37:00] that are supported and encouraged by their parents, where the parents in the [00:37:05] school are communicating, are sharing a classroom with [00:37:10] students from conservative or religious households or [00:37:15] simply who do not, uh, believe in gender identity ideology.

[00:37:19] Stephanie Winn: So [00:37:20] there's a question of how the students are asked [00:37:25] to speak about their classmate, that they're asked to use the name and [00:37:30] pronouns, and furthermore that this is. Discussed [00:37:35] under the umbrella of anti-bullying. I'm trying to remember which experts I've had on this [00:37:40] podcast to talk about how that's been, that, that sort of slate of hand that they've done with the [00:37:45] anti-bullying stuff, um, and how they use that to slide a lot of [00:37:50] gender identity ideology by people.

[00:37:53] Stephanie Winn: So practically [00:37:55] speaking, when a student who, let's say, [00:38:00] shares their parents' religious beliefs and doesn't believe in gender identity ideology is sharing a [00:38:05] classroom with a student from a much different background, [00:38:10] how. You know, what the rules are in school in terms of, you know, [00:38:15] using preferred pronouns and everyone getting the lesson on [00:38:20] why you need to respect people and why respect needs to take the [00:38:25] form of lying about people's sex.

[00:38:27] Dean Broyles: And affirm always affirming no matter what. Yeah. [00:38:30]

[00:38:30] Stephanie Winn: Like, I'm wondering how that plays out for students.

[00:38:34] Dean Broyles: [00:38:35] So that's a great question. And you know, there's a great case, [00:38:40] um, called Tinker versus Des Moines that dealt with, um, high [00:38:45] school students protesting the Vietnam War by wearing black armbands. And [00:38:50] there's a great line from that case.

[00:38:52] Dean Broyles: It, it says that students do [00:38:55] not shed their constitutional rights at this schoolhouse gate. Okay. [00:39:00] So in that case, what I would argue, and I think we would prevail on it, [00:39:05] especially with this Supreme Court, is that, uh. [00:39:10] Whether it's under the guise of anti-bullying or harassment, [00:39:15] um, the state can, can cannot coerce student speech, [00:39:20] right?

[00:39:20] Dean Broyles: The state cannot tell that student, you have to use a name that doesn't [00:39:25] conform with gender or a pronoun that doesn't conform with their actual, I'm sorry, [00:39:30] actual sex. Um, let me correct that. Um, and so yeah, that, [00:39:35] that, that violates the conscience of that student to say things that they [00:39:40] believe are untrue, right?

[00:39:42] Dean Broyles: You're telling them, you know, for the sake of [00:39:45] peace and, and anti-harassment, anti bullying, to basically you have to [00:39:50] suppress your belief, right? And silence yourself and censor [00:39:55] yourself for what's, you know, what we'll call the L-G-B-T-Q greater good, right? And so [00:40:00] that's problematic, um, because at that point the [00:40:05] school is coercively trying to violate the free speech rights.[00:40:10]

[00:40:10] Dean Broyles: Of, of, in this case, a religious student who, [00:40:15] who do isn't on the, um, transgender bandwagon. So [00:40:20] we would, we would, we would sue the school for violating their, their first amendment rights. [00:40:25]

[00:40:25] Stephanie Winn: So that was a Supreme Court case back in the seventies.

[00:40:29] Dean Broyles: It [00:40:30] was, uh, the, the Tinker V versus Des Moines, I believe it was the late sixties.[00:40:35]

[00:40:35] Dean Broyles: Yeah. But they're, it's been reaffirmed over and over again. So students have, [00:40:40] teachers' rights are a little bit more murky in public schools, but student rights are definitely well [00:40:45] protected in public schools.

[00:40:47] Stephanie Winn: Your trans-identified kid won't listen to [00:40:50] reason, because reason isn't what they need right now.

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[00:41:27] Stephanie Winn: So tell us how this works in practice [00:41:30] then. Um, given that that is that the students' free speech rights are [00:41:35] protected, that feels intuitively to me, like it flies in the [00:41:40] face of stories I've heard, although I can't conjure any particular story, but I feel like I've heard stories [00:41:45] of students being called in the principal's office for their sincerely held beliefs.

[00:41:49] Stephanie Winn: [00:41:50] And I'm wondering, I mean, of course there's always, regardless of [00:41:55] law. Regardless of policy, there's always social incentives and disincentives. And that's what [00:42:00] students are gonna base their behavior on most of the time. I mean, most middle schoolers do not have strong faith in [00:42:05] their convictions so much as they have a, a great deal of social anxiety and, uh, [00:42:10] care for what the group thinks.

[00:42:11] Stephanie Winn: And, you know, even, even the boldest of sixth [00:42:15] graders are not, uh, particularly wired to go against the grain [00:42:20] and, and say unpopular things. But what I am hearing is that the protection is [00:42:25] there, even if it doesn't feel like it in the culture of the [00:42:30] learning environment. I'm just wondering how this plays out for a student.

[00:42:34] Stephanie Winn: You know, let's say [00:42:35] there's a parent listening. Who, okay, take. A recent friend of mine, [00:42:40] um, met a woman recently who has a 15-year-old daughter, and she said, my [00:42:45] daughter's an even bigger turf than I am. So suppose that my new friend is [00:42:50] listening and or her daughter, maybe she's listening with her daughter, [00:42:55] and, uh, the daughter wants to abstain from using [00:43:00] preferred pronouns in awoke, you know, Portland Public School.

[00:43:04] Stephanie Winn: [00:43:05] Um, what should that daughter and her mom know about [00:43:10] her rights and how that plays out in practice?

[00:43:12] Dean Broyles: Well, I mean, uh, these [00:43:15] cases are often fact sensitive, but I, I would say, you know, you [00:43:20] have to be brave and bold and courageous to stand up against the, the cultural wave, [00:43:25] uh, that we've all been kind of under, especially under transgender issue recently.

[00:43:29] Dean Broyles: But [00:43:30] I, you know, I, I love to represent people who. Not, they're [00:43:35] not hateful. They're not mean, they're not big. They're actually not bigoted. They actually love [00:43:40] people no matter how they identify, but they're just not willing [00:43:45] to lie. Um, it's like a, Alexander Sol Chen wrote that, [00:43:50] um, that that speech in that article on, uh, calls live not by [00:43:55] lies.

[00:43:55] Dean Broyles: We're just not willing to say things that aren't true and that aren't consistent with what they [00:44:00] believe about human sexuality. And so, um, [00:44:05] they, they could, you know, depending on the facts, um, we, or an [00:44:10] organization like ours would represent them if the school is [00:44:15] pressuring them to say things or do things that conflict with their sincerely held [00:44:20] religious beliefs.

[00:44:21] Dean Broyles: And so, typically, and we do these cases all the time, [00:44:25] we'd be making a, um, religious fear exercise claim on behalf of the student. But we'd [00:44:30] also, in that context, be making a. Free speech claim because [00:44:35] it's, it's, they're trying to coerce speech, not, and that's [00:44:40] not just speech. I mean by speech. They're trying to really coerce what they believe, [00:44:45] right?

[00:44:45] Dean Broyles: What the student believes or what they're able to express about their own belief, right? [00:44:50] So it's very, um, what's happening in this context [00:44:55] is very, um, Orwellian. I mean, it's, it's big brother of the [00:45:00] state saying, Hey, if you don't agree a hundred percent with our sexual [00:45:05] orthodoxy, you're a heretic and you need to be silenced and [00:45:10] suppressed.

[00:45:10] Dean Broyles: And bull, bull really, they bully you, ironically, [00:45:15] in the name of ending harassment and bullying. They're really bullying and harassing a lot of, [00:45:20] of, uh, religious folks. I mean, even here in liberal California, [00:45:25] approximately 70% of, um, the. [00:45:30] The, the public, uh, rep is representing a different religious beliefs, right?

[00:45:34] Dean Broyles: And [00:45:35] so in a high percentage of those probably have fairly traditional religious beliefs, [00:45:40] and a lot of them go to public schools and they're, they're feeling bullied and harassed and [00:45:45] silenced. And I actually confronted a educator several years ago, and I said, you know, I know [00:45:50] you're, you're trying to protect the L-G-B-T-Q identifying [00:45:55] students from bullying harassment.

[00:45:56] Dean Broyles: But what about all the other kids [00:46:00] who have a different worldview? How do you think they're feeling? Do they think they feel safe and [00:46:05] welcome and accepted in public schools? A lot of 'em don't. Um, so. [00:46:10] We've got, it's a problem. It's a big problem that nobody's talking about.

[00:46:14] Stephanie Winn: So you're [00:46:15] talking about the, uh, chilling effect on the student.

[00:46:19] Stephanie Winn: Not [00:46:20] only what they feel that they can say, but what they can [00:46:25] believe. Because so much of how we arrive at our beliefs is through [00:46:30] talking to other people. And that makes me think of a third factor, which [00:46:35] is what students signal to other students are acceptable thoughts [00:46:40] to entertain. Um, I, I. Suspect that [00:46:45] there's a lot of preference falsification going on, um, [00:46:50] especially in, uh, blue states.

[00:46:53] Stephanie Winn: Um, [00:46:55] because I, I know, and I've talked on this podcast and I've talked behind the scenes to [00:47:00] many people, um, in traditionally liberal areas, many of them still [00:47:05] quite liberal themselves personally, um, but who do not [00:47:10] agree with gender identity, ideology. And [00:47:15] it's really frightening how hard it is [00:47:20] for people to even find each other, to find other people in their own community [00:47:25] who share their beliefs, um, or who, who otherwise [00:47:30] have not bought in to this crazy set of beliefs.

[00:47:33] Stephanie Winn: So if students. [00:47:35] Feel, I mean, we're, we're talking about two different things because we're saying legally [00:47:40] students do have free speech rights. Um, no student in a public school can be [00:47:45] compelled to use, uh, speech that feels, um, [00:47:50] like it violates their sincerely held beliefs, whether those are religious beliefs or simply [00:47:55] beliefs in biological reality.

[00:47:57] Stephanie Winn: Um, but practically the culture of the [00:48:00] school is a different matter. And when it comes to the culture of the school, that's what [00:48:05] I'm concerned about is can students, uh, find other students who are, who are [00:48:10] questioning this? I mean, how many times have, have any of us looked around for someone [00:48:15] else in the same room to validate our perspective when it's something didn't.

[00:48:19] Stephanie Winn: [00:48:20] Seari seem right or smell right or, uh, something is off. You know, you hear something. Do you [00:48:25] hear that? Is that my tinnitus? Or is there a high pitched sound in the room? You, you look to other [00:48:30] people to, to see, am I crazy? Am I being [00:48:35] hypersensitive or is there something going on here? And students in, in [00:48:40] a developmental time in their life, uh, if they can't do that with each [00:48:45] other, if they can't, you know, say that's a boy.

[00:48:48] Stephanie Winn: Right? That's, [00:48:50] yeah, that's a boy. You know, if they can't do that then, and then they're just constantly [00:48:55] being gaslit and their natural instincts are being suppressed, and then you end up with this [00:49:00] broad scale preference falsification, where it's like the emperor's new close. Everyone thinks that [00:49:05] everyone else really sees the close and most people don't.

[00:49:08] Dean Broyles: Yeah. It's interesting to [00:49:10] use the term Emperors New Close. 'cause I've, when I've written about. Years [00:49:15] ago, I was writing about what, what I called the gender blender and gender confusion. And before it [00:49:20] was even, you know, right after it was pushed at the US after the Supreme Court ruled [00:49:25] and on behalf of same-sex marriage, right.

[00:49:26] Dean Broyles: In 2015, as soon as that, that, you know, [00:49:30] constitutional right was, was recognized, um, that's when gender [00:49:35] started being pushed right away. And I predicted then that, um, [00:49:40] that it, the, the t was gonna unfortunately [00:49:45] boomerang on the whole movement, um, be, and, and it's, it's unfortunately happened. I mean, [00:49:50] TT has now fallen quickly out of favor because of things like the cast report from England, [00:49:55] the HHS report recently last year, and know the science [00:50:00] scientific research is starting to really come out against.

[00:50:04] Dean Broyles: The idea [00:50:05] of pushing kids in, in this one one way direction. Um, it's very [00:50:10] harmful, but I, I use the same term. The emperor has no clothes. Why? And I felt like I was [00:50:15] alone in saying that out loud, you know, five to seven years ago. But now [00:50:20] it's, it's, it's becoming more popular. And I think for me, the issue [00:50:25] of gender ideology, um, until [00:50:30] people realize how people are being harmed by it, right?

[00:50:33] Dean Broyles: Like, like lobotomies, you [00:50:35] know, it used to be popular to, with people, with mental problems, to do lobotomies. [00:50:40] Thankfully we don't do that anymore because it's unthinkable, right? I think [00:50:45] we need to make butchering, uh, children's bodies with chemicals [00:50:50] and hormones and surgeries unthinkable. 'cause it really is causing a lot of [00:50:55] harm.

[00:50:55] Dean Broyles: Um, but, you know, they, the whole idea of, of peer [00:51:00] pressure. Kind of, um, it maybe is a good segue to talk about teachers, right? [00:51:05] Because it's not only students in the classroom being pressured to use pronouns [00:51:10] and names, it's teachers, right? And they've got the Damick Lee sword hanging over them [00:51:15] of maybe losing their job if they don't, if they're not with the program.

[00:51:19] Dean Broyles: And [00:51:20] so, um, what, what's happened is really in my [00:51:25] mind, almost diabolical here in California. Um, there was a law that was [00:51:30] passed in 2023. It was called AB five. [00:51:35] And um, the idea of AB five is, hey, you know, we've been [00:51:40] pushing this agenda for a decade now. We've been passing [00:51:45] laws and the CDEs has been pushing the lie that [00:51:50] legally schools had to keep gender secrets from parents, right?

[00:51:54] Dean Broyles: And so everybody [00:51:55] is kind of. They, they thought they had, everybody bought into it, but they're like, oh, we [00:52:00] need to make sure all of our teachers are on board. So they created what's [00:52:05] called, um, L-G-B-T-Q Cultural Competency Training, um, in [00:52:10] 2023. And there's, there's about 10 to 12 things that the statute [00:52:15] says, oh, when you go through the training, this is what you need to teach.

[00:52:17] Dean Broyles: And it's, it's a, it's a [00:52:20] five year, one hour a year, uh, training. [00:52:25] Um, and the California Department of Education was tasked to create [00:52:30] this model training, it's called PRISM Training. And it started this, they [00:52:35] started implementing it and putting into practice this year with the first year of training was this year.[00:52:40]

[00:52:40] Dean Broyles: And, um, we started getting calls from all our state, from [00:52:45] Christian teachers and, and even teachers of other faith who [00:52:50] said. This stuff is very coercive, it's very aggressive. I [00:52:55] can't in good conscience even take the training basically, is what these teachers were starting to say. And [00:53:00] we started looking into it.

[00:53:01] Dean Broyles: And um, [00:53:05] basically the training among other things said you were, you know, you're, you're [00:53:10] basically a bigot on the wrong side of history if you don't affirm [00:53:15] right. And at Affirm, I'm not just talking about, you know, all [00:53:20] the L-G-B-T-Q stuff, but they're really focused on gender in the training. [00:53:25] If you don't affirm that the child's chosen name pronouns and keep secrets from [00:53:30] parents and you don't create a safe space in your class with all the [00:53:35] L-G-B-T-Q banners and, and stuff, then you're not a good ally, you're not a good teacher and [00:53:40] you're not culturally competent.

[00:53:41] Dean Broyles: So it's trying to push all the teachers no matter what [00:53:45] their sincerely held religious beliefs are to. Um, [00:53:50] affirm and, and essentially, um, it, it, it's, so [00:53:55] it basically tells these teachers you need to suppress what you believe, [00:54:00] um, and, and, and self-censor yourself. [00:54:05] And if you don't, um, it's, the [00:54:10] best way to describe it is it's basically asking people with a, [00:54:15] uh, worldview of human unhuman sexuality that's traditional, biblical Christian, [00:54:20] Catholic, et cetera, to basically erase and replace their worldview.[00:54:25]

[00:54:25] Dean Broyles: You know, it's like, here's, here's the right belief, here's a wrong belief. You're believing [00:54:30] wrong, you know, believe this and do this and say this, right? So it's very, [00:54:35] and it tells 'em, here's what you need to do in the classroom. And so, um, [00:54:40] we got involved and I did a lot of work. Uh. On [00:54:45] religious accommodation.

[00:54:45] Dean Broyles: I'm, I'm, I'm actually an expert in religious accommodation. I've done a lot of cases, especially during [00:54:50] the pandemic. Um, and I'm actually been asked, I'm a constitutional [00:54:55] attorney primarily, but I do a lot of religious accommodation, employment cases [00:55:00] and I've had a lot of success in that. So I was, when uh, teachers started reaching [00:55:05] out with the concerns, nobody else stepped up to help 'em.

[00:55:08] Dean Broyles: I thought somebody needs to help these [00:55:10] teachers 'cause they should be even, have to be subjected to this [00:55:15] very aggressive, coercive, or willing and training. And so, uh, we [00:55:20] developed, um, a religious accommodation request letter that actually, [00:55:25] you know, argues that, um, these [00:55:30] policies and practices. They were pushed by Prism.

[00:55:32] Dean Broyles: And there's the policies, same policies and [00:55:35] practices we've been talking about all day today. Um, violate the First Amendment [00:55:40] rights of teachers to be free from course speech themselves, like the students we were talking about [00:55:45] earlier. And Al also violates their free exercise of religion. But the [00:55:50] main leverage we have is actually statutorily under Title vii, federal Title VII [00:55:55] and state, uh, similar state law called the Fair Employment Housing Act.

[00:55:59] Dean Broyles: Um, [00:56:00] basically what those statutes require is that an employer [00:56:05] must accommodate the sincerely held religious objections to an [00:56:10] employer mandate in the workplace, unless it imposes an undue hardship on [00:56:15] the employer. Um, and undue hardship was recently ruled in favor [00:56:20] of employees at the Supreme Court.

[00:56:22] Dean Broyles: Recently the standard was set. Back in the [00:56:25] case a couple years ago called CR versus DeJoy. And so we started [00:56:30] telling these teachers, Hey, guess what? You have a right to re request religious [00:56:35] accommodation and they have to accommodate you and, and, and, [00:56:40] and they really don't have a defense that it impose an undue hardship on the, um, [00:56:45] school because, uh, undue hardship is a significant burden or expense and [00:56:50] the school just can't meet that defensive test.

[00:56:53] Dean Broyles: And so, [00:56:55] um, we, we started writing these letters and started submitting 'em in [00:57:00] November. And over time, um, school districts have actually pulled back on Prism. [00:57:05] Prism was, was created by the California, um, [00:57:10] department of Education. They subcontracted with the, uh, Los Angeles [00:57:15] Department, county Department of Education.

[00:57:17] Dean Broyles: Who brought in a [00:57:20] coalition of very far left groups like the Trevor Project, um, [00:57:25] ACL Youth, Southern California, um, advocates for youth that does cartoon [00:57:30] pornography for kids in schools. I mean, just who all these really woke [00:57:35] groups, um, who are really pushing the trans agenda in a very radical [00:57:40] way and all spheres of their influence to create this, this curriculum.[00:57:45]

[00:57:45] Dean Broyles: And I said earlier there was 10 to 12 kind of more vanilla type things that the [00:57:50] training was supposed to include on a scale of one to 10. I would describe [00:57:55] the statutory requirements in the training, maybe about a five of being bad [00:58:00] as far as ideology. But, but what they did is [00:58:05] they supercharged it in the form of this prism training, which was the model for everything else [00:58:10] that was probably a 10 or 11 on a scale of one to 10 of being really [00:58:15] ideological and aggressive.

[00:58:15] Dean Broyles: And so. These teachers saw this training, they're like, we can't do it. We [00:58:20] can't take the training. And so we developed this resource and started pushing back. [00:58:25] And thankfully, um, some districts have created [00:58:30] alternative training that's a little bit more watered down, not as aggressive, but it [00:58:35] still statutorily has to be similar or substantially similar to Prism.

[00:58:39] Dean Broyles: So [00:58:40] all the training's bad, it's just the question of how bad is it? How coer some is it? [00:58:45] And um, recently since the Mirabelli decision at the US Supreme Court, [00:58:50] um, the, all of our clients have been getting, [00:58:55] uh, not just offered alternative training that's still bad. They're now [00:59:00] being told they don't even have to take the training at all.

[00:59:03] Dean Broyles: Not just for this year, but [00:59:05] some of them for all five years. And so, um, and the [00:59:10] context of protecting teachers rights, we're being able to do that successfully. [00:59:15] What's sad to me though is, um, that kind of fear factor that we [00:59:20] talked about amongst students. It's very prominent amongst teachers too. Teachers don't wanna be [00:59:25] looked down off, uh, uh, as, you know, homophobic or, you know, [00:59:30] transphobic bigots or whatever.

[00:59:31] Dean Broyles: So they're afraid to reach up, [00:59:35] you know, reach out and, and, and make a stand. And some of the teachers [00:59:40] have have kind of bit the bullet and gone through the training anyway, but then come back to other [00:59:45] Christian and Catholic teachers and said in tears and said, I really feel like I [00:59:50] sold my soul. I really feel like I violated my conscience to take this training and I wish I [00:59:55] hadn't done it.

[00:59:56] Dean Broyles: And so, even though we're helping hundreds of teachers across the state, [01:00:00] in the state, the sizes of California, um, we should be getting [01:00:05] thousands if not tens of thousands of assistance requests. And we're only getting a few [01:00:10] in part because, um, as we've been talking about. [01:00:15] We live kind of in a post-Christian culture, in a post-truth culture, in a [01:00:20] post-traditional culture where if you maintain a, a biblical view or a a [01:00:25] Christian view or a Catholic view on human sexuality, you're seen as backwards and kind of cast [01:00:30] aside.

[01:00:30] Dean Broyles: So even though, like we said, you're legally protected, a lot of people are [01:00:35] afraid to stand up. And, um, the problem is, [01:00:40] you know, whether you're a Christian or not, if, if you can't stand up and speak the [01:00:45] truth and, and speak at boldly, and clearly we don't live in a free [01:00:50] nation anymore. And there's, there's this kind of sociological theory that was [01:00:55] developed after pre-World War ii, Nazi Germany to explain why did so many Germans go [01:01:00] along with what Hitler and the Nazis did, right?

[01:01:03] Dean Broyles: Not just to the Jews, [01:01:05] but to, to, to everyone. Um, and the idea is as more pressure [01:01:10] comes against. The more, uh, people wanting to save their [01:01:15] skins and their livelihood and their families, they, they become more and more quiet in [01:01:20] silence. And it's called the spiral of silence. But that spiral can be reversed.[01:01:25]

[01:01:25] Dean Broyles: And I think we're seeing that happen in this transgender space, right? Where more [01:01:30] people are willing to speak the truth of love and speak up and, and [01:01:35] say, this is insanity. We've gotta rethink this. Um, we're [01:01:40] seeing, um, uh, more of a movement against it, and we're [01:01:45] making, um, I think it's becoming, starting to become unthinkable.

[01:01:48] Dean Broyles: And so I'm, I'm [01:01:50] hopeful that the truth will prevail, um, whether from a Christian [01:01:55] perspective or from a secular perspective in this whole ID ideology. I just wanted to [01:02:00] affirm that, that teachers and students have rights. It's not, even though we were [01:02:05] focused on parental rights of mirabelli and Mahmud, it's actually spilling over into the [01:02:10] teachers and.

[01:02:11] Dean Broyles: Um, you know, one of the things that the, the, the court [01:02:15] has said is that the teacher's right to inform parents, [01:02:20] um, is their religious right too. That's what the Judge Bonita said. [01:02:25] If they believe, if their religion teaches them that parents should [01:02:30] be the ones in control of their child's life and not the state, then that [01:02:35] the, the, the teacher actually has a legal constitutional right to inform parents.

[01:02:39] Dean Broyles: [01:02:40] And that, that's kind of boosted by the parental right to know, right. The [01:02:45] parental right to know that information. And so, um, I think the [01:02:50] rights of teachers and parents are, are very well intertwined and [01:02:55] aligned here. And some, some teachers won't wanna tell parents, um. [01:03:00] But I think it's a mistake to assume that all parents are [01:03:05] unfit, therefore, all parents must be kept in the dark.

[01:03:07] Dean Broyles: I think that's a very dangerous [01:03:10] proposition.

[01:03:10] Stephanie Winn: Are you a freethinking therapist looking for like-minded community? The [01:03:15] Association for Mental Health Professionals is a sanctuary for holistic critical thinking [01:03:20] counselors and therapists who want to stand firm in our values and reclaim our profession. From [01:03:25] ideologues, A MHP offers its members a blog and podcast, [01:03:30] monthly webinars, and an annual conference each fall in Texas.

[01:03:33] Stephanie Winn: Visit [01:03:35] Association for mental health professionals.org to join a growing number of [01:03:40] like-minded therapists who want our profession back. Alright, now back to the show. We've [01:03:45] been talking about this from the angle of teachers' rights to inform parents [01:03:50] and parents' rights to be informed. I feel silly for not [01:03:55] covering this earlier, but what does all of that have to do with policies [01:04:00] on using preferred names and pronouns when parents don't [01:04:05] approve?

[01:04:05] Stephanie Winn: 'cause it's, I mean, our parents in California essentially being [01:04:10] informed, Hey, your kid is going by this other name and pronoun in school. And if the parents, [01:04:15] if the parent objects to that, it's, is it, well we check the [01:04:20] box, we informed you and we're gonna keep calling them what they wanna be called in school or [01:04:25] does it go beyond information?

[01:04:27] Stephanie Winn: Do the parents have a right to [01:04:30] decide if that name and pronoun can be used or [01:04:35] not?

[01:04:36] Dean Broyles: Yes. So, um, [01:04:40] some of this needs to be worked out in the courts [01:04:45] exactly what the parameters are, but I think that's where [01:04:50] it's going. Because if parents has the right to direct care and education of their [01:04:55] child, and you know, that includes knowing about de gender dysphoria.

[01:04:58] Dean Broyles: It's not just knowing about de [01:05:00] gender dysphoria. It's, it's, um, it's, [01:05:05] it's kind of being in charge and, and where that goes. Right. This, in other words, the [01:05:10] state shouldn't be in charge of what happens with that. It's the parents who are in charge of what happens with that and their [01:05:15] mental healthcare providers.

[01:05:16] Dean Broyles: Right. So, um, [01:05:20] I, I believe ultimately the courts are gonna say, and, and this is, and the state's [01:05:25] kind of interpreting it this way so far, is that, hey, if a parent tells [01:05:30] you, um, tell me if my client is expressing gender [01:05:35] incongruence, then we need to tell them, right? If the parent says, [01:05:40] I don't want you to use preferred names or pronouns, then we probably need to respect that.[01:05:45]

[01:05:45] Dean Broyles: 'cause that seems to be where the Supreme Court is going with all of this. That, that [01:05:50] parents have a superior right, to make those decisions over the state. [01:05:55] So the state can't undermine not only [01:06:00] the religious parental rights involved, but the healthcare parental rights that are involved for everyone, [01:06:05] even if they're not religious.

[01:06:06] Dean Broyles: So I think, I think that's where it's going. But, [01:06:10] um, we're still kind of early in the litigation. There's, there's actually, besides the [01:06:15] Mirabelli case, there's I think up to several dozen other [01:06:20] cases, including the foot case that are pending before the Supreme Court are working [01:06:25] their way up towards the Supreme Court.

[01:06:27] Dean Broyles: So, um, I think the [01:06:30] court in the procuring decision that they issued on March 2nd [01:06:35] was signaling that, Hey, we're gonna, we're gonna side [01:06:40] strongly with the parents on this issue. Um, and, and you [01:06:45] can't keep secrets anymore, especially if the parents tell you they wanna know. And especially if they tell you not to [01:06:50] socially transition the kid behind their back.

[01:06:53] Dean Broyles: And I think that's gonna spill over [01:06:55] and benefit teachers too. Even though this current Supreme Court ruling didn't really address [01:07:00] the teacher arguments, they were primarily address at the lower court level by Judge Beez. [01:07:05] I think ultimately the arguments and facts that were provided [01:07:10] there will, uh, also occur in favor of teachers who wanna notify [01:07:15] parents.

[01:07:15] Stephanie Winn: So it is moving in the direction of parents having the [01:07:20] right to say no, you may not call my child by a different name and pronoun in [01:07:25] school. And that's not set in stone yet. It is [01:07:30] being framed, however, at least by you here as a healthcare decision, which I would agree with. And that was [01:07:35] something I discussed with Laura Powell in our episode on this topic.

[01:07:39] Stephanie Winn: You know, [01:07:40] she raised the question of is social transition a medical intervention? [01:07:45] And, uh, she and I both said, and I'm sure you agree that it is [01:07:50] and therefore should not be made by people without a medical [01:07:55] background or without, um, a counseling background. But of course, you [01:08:00] know, I have my objections with, uh, the way that a lot of my [01:08:05] colleagues think on this issue.

[01:08:06] Stephanie Winn: And, uh, part of the issue that I see [01:08:10] is therapists wanting to see themselves [01:08:15] as good people who are just following their client's lead, taking it one step at a [01:08:20] time, exploring gender identity and not [01:08:25] acknowledging that. For one thing, as a [01:08:30] professional and as an adult other than a child's parent, we have a certain degree of authority [01:08:35] with our patients who are adolescents and young adults.

[01:08:38] Stephanie Winn: And that that authority [01:08:40] means something. And that our stance, even if we think of it [01:08:45] as exploratory, can be interpreted as a [01:08:50] validation of the identity. And that things like, uh, going [01:08:55] along with using names and pronouns are not neutral. And I [01:09:00] cannot tell you how many stories I hear in my unique role as a coach for these [01:09:05] parents.

[01:09:06] Stephanie Winn: Of them finding a therapist they thought was well vetted. [01:09:10] Um, you know, typically not someone with a high profile like myself. In fact, I [01:09:15] specifically advise them not to do that. I say, if, if your child's therapist [01:09:20] can be found on the transgender map website, then that's not gonna work. [01:09:25] 'cause your kid's gonna Google them and they're gonna say, oh, this person's a terrible Nazi.

[01:09:29] Stephanie Winn: Right? Like, [01:09:30] so you want someone your child will trust and establish rapport with, but you also wanna make sure [01:09:35] that person's well vetted. I cannot tell you how many stories I hear of parents taking their [01:09:40] kids to these people they think are going to explore the issue, not just take [01:09:45] a declaration of identity, at face value as some sort of demographic label.[01:09:50]

[01:09:50] Stephanie Winn: And then so much of the time these therapists [01:09:55] end up affirming the identity or, you know, talking to the parents often in front [01:10:00] of the child about the importance of just giving them that inch. [01:10:05] Saying, oh, well, you know, if you just compromise. And, and these, the therapists are [01:10:10] so terribly informed. I can tell I've never met them, but I can tell that they don't [01:10:15] know what they're doing.

[01:10:16] Stephanie Winn: When parents talk to me about how they're proceeding [01:10:20] because they are naively assuming that the child [01:10:25] will be satisfied, right? So the child puts it forth like some sort of compromise, [01:10:30] like a position that they can settle on, right? Well, if my parents will only call me this, or [01:10:35] they'll only do this for me, and then I'll be okay.

[01:10:37] Stephanie Winn: Right? And then the therapist naively believe that [01:10:40] collude with the child, argue that position to the parents. [01:10:45] And I think these therapists really think that, that that'll make the [01:10:50] kids stop, resenting the parent, be more open with them, start collaborating and [01:10:55] working with therapy in a more productive and holistic manner, and that eventually they'll be [01:11:00] able to.

[01:11:01] Stephanie Winn: Get them to a better place. That I really think that's what a lot of these therapists [01:11:05] think. And they're so wrong about that because if, if you've been studying this [01:11:10] issue intensively for a while, like I have, you see that, that, that the goalposts are [01:11:15] constantly shifting with these kids. You know, they might believe, they might sincerely believe [01:11:20] that they will be satisfied by their parents' compromising on [01:11:25] the name or pronoun issue, but they'll, their so-called [01:11:30] euphoria in reaction to that is going to be short-lived, and then they're gonna up the ante again.

[01:11:34] Stephanie Winn: [01:11:35] And every time a young person reinforces the belief through their [01:11:40] actions, their words. Their counseling relationship reinforces the belief that they [01:11:45] have to be seen and treated a certain way in order to be themselves, in order to be okay. They're strengthening the neural pathways [01:11:50] associated with gender obsession and digging themselves further into that hole.

[01:11:53] Stephanie Winn: So I am so frustrated with [01:11:55] my colleagues on this issue. I, um, have this conversation every single week and [01:12:00] my coaching work. Um, you know, I tell parents, uh, it sounds [01:12:05] paranoid until you've seen what I've seen. Then you understand why I say that therapists are guilty [01:12:10] until proven innocent on this issue. So all of that is my little soapbox rant in [01:12:15] reaction to the topic of healthcare because yes, that is a healthcare [01:12:20] decision, right?

[01:12:21] Stephanie Winn: The, the decision to participate in social transition in any way [01:12:25] to affirm the identity, to use the name and pronoun is endorsing it and [01:12:30] is having a, an impact on what's happening with that developing [01:12:35] child's brain.

[01:12:36] Dean Broyles: It's a stepping stone off into the. The [01:12:40] next thing on the conveyor belt you mentioned earlier, which is medicalization and, you know, [01:12:45] hormone therapies and chemicals and surgeries and, and, um, [01:12:50] the, you know, I don't know if you've heard these statistics, but [01:12:55] the desistance I, I heard from these social scientists who study this a lot.

[01:12:59] Dean Broyles: [01:13:00] They said the de desistence rate of, of, of people who [01:13:05] once identify as transgender is over 85%. [01:13:10] Okay. If, and, and if it, it may, you know, I don't, I don't know if those [01:13:15] numbers are correct or not, but if it's anything close to that, we've gotta be very [01:13:20] careful pushing kids to make decisions that they may [01:13:25] regret for the rest of their life.

[01:13:26] Dean Broyles: I mean, this is one thing where you can really do a lot of [01:13:30] damage before you realize what's happened. And, um, we're [01:13:35] talking about kids here. You know, this whole idea of autonomy [01:13:40] has made us insane, right? We're gonna make young people who don't have [01:13:45] their prefrontal cortex fully developed. They're not 24 or 25 or older yet.[01:13:50]

[01:13:50] Dean Broyles: We're gonna seed autonomy and authority to them to direct the [01:13:55] counselor and the parents as to what happens that may affect the rest of their life. Um, in [01:14:00] any other context, this would be insane, you know, if our kid came to us and said, Hey, [01:14:05] you know, I feel like I'm a crocodile today, right? What, what, what, what would we do with that [01:14:10] information?

[01:14:10] Dean Broyles: What we just say? Yeah, I, you know, whatever you wanna be, you can be a crocodile. [01:14:15] And I'm not, I'm not trying to minimize the issue, but what I am saying [01:14:20] is this whole bandwagon effect is, you know, peer pressure and bandwagon has not [01:14:25] just affected kids and, and what they're experiencing. It's affected. [01:14:30] Or infected.

[01:14:31] Dean Broyles: It's like, I don't, I don't wanna call it the woke mind virus, but [01:14:35] maybe I will. It's just, it's made people stupid to, [01:14:40] to, to actually put aside normal safeguards and, uh, [01:14:45] commitments to truth that we would have in every other context in, in, in [01:14:50] professional, uh, society. We've just kind of gone insane collectively together on this [01:14:55] issue.

[01:14:55] Dean Broyles: And I think thankfully we're starting to wake up from our slumber.

[01:14:59] Stephanie Winn: [01:15:00] Yes. And we don't know what the desistance rates really will be with this cohort, because we [01:15:05] never run this experiment before. You know, the desistence rates we know more about, [01:15:10] have to do with an older cohort of people who are mostly, mostly turned out to [01:15:15] be gay and lesbian.

[01:15:16] Stephanie Winn: Um, and, and we're talking about, you know, [01:15:20] gender atypical behaviors and gender dysphoria and young children. Well now [01:15:25] we have a social contagion. Where we have girls who were [01:15:30] very girly and feminine until last week, and then the [01:15:35] perfect storm hit between her social influences, her [01:15:40] online influences, her normal frustrations with things like [01:15:45] menstruation, you know, the, all these things hit.

[01:15:47] Stephanie Winn: And then [01:15:50] unfortunately the, uh, pansexual to non-binary to trans. Pipeline in [01:15:55] middle school girls is still alive and well. As much as there is speculation and, and [01:16:00] anecdotal reports, and I see them too, that it seems to be, uh, no longer [01:16:05] trendy or that, you know, there's a younger generation that's had this, uh, propaganda s shoved down [01:16:10] their throats so much that they're growing up sick of it and rejecting it as much as that's happening.[01:16:15]

[01:16:15] Stephanie Winn: Still that pansexual to non-binary, to trans pipeline in adolescent [01:16:20] girls in the schools, and a lot of other sources of indoctrination. We also see it at later ages [01:16:25] with the males. Uh, that's anecdotally what I see is the males tend to be later ages, and that's [01:16:30] also, um, when Lisa Lipman, uh, presented at Gen SPECT [01:16:35] in Albuquerque in September, some preliminary research that's not published yet.

[01:16:39] Stephanie Winn: That was what [01:16:40] her data was showing as well. Also, if you go to deran.ai, I've had Peter, James, Steven, the creator of [01:16:45] Deran Det Trans AI on this podcast. We've talked about how the data [01:16:50] from his Reddit forum scrape also matches up with sort of younger [01:16:55] females, the older males, right? So we have like an increasing picture of who these kids are, what their [01:17:00] demographics are, you know, and those girly girls, the [01:17:05] ones who are repressing their femininity to hide behind the shield of masculinity [01:17:10] because of what that represents to them.

[01:17:12] Stephanie Winn: Um. I mean, what are their desistance rates [01:17:15] gonna be like sky high. Right? But, but we're medicalizing it, [01:17:20] we're affirming it. So we, we've never run this experiment before where all of society [01:17:25] is on board where a, a temporary state is being taken to mean something [01:17:30] else and medicalized. So it's just gonna be a big crazy mess for many [01:17:35] decades to come.

[01:17:35] Stephanie Winn: I mean, I think probably the rest of my life, you know, I'm, I'm about [01:17:40] halfway through, about halfway through life, and I feel like this is gonna, um, [01:17:45] I, I don't know. I'm gonna be in the retirement home and hopefully I'll be [01:17:50] respected. I'll be like, yeah, I was one of the first, you know, I was one of the first calling [01:17:55] BS on that, you know, but I mean, we're gonna have a lot of, um, [01:18:00] a lot of regretful, sterile [01:18:05] 30 and 40 somethings with a lot of health problems.

[01:18:08] Stephanie Winn: I, I say this as someone who. [01:18:10] Has struggled with my health a little earlier in life than I was hoping to have had to do [01:18:15] so, and I just really feel for where these kids are gonna end up. [01:18:20]

[01:18:20] Dean Broyles: I would just, one thing I would add to that, what we're starting to see in [01:18:25] my, in my former life as an attorney, I was, I did medical malpractice cases, right?

[01:18:29] Dean Broyles: [01:18:30] And so we're starting to see detransition win [01:18:35] malpractice cases, and not only against doctors, but I think who, [01:18:40] who did the surgeries and procedures. I think it's gonna be against some of the counselors who pushed 'em in that direction too. [01:18:45] So I think I'm, I, you know, we, we talk about being on the [01:18:50] wrong side of history or the right side of history.

[01:18:52] Dean Broyles: We also could be talking about, [01:18:55] um, hurting people and being held accountable for hurting people. And so,

[01:18:59] Stephanie Winn: yeah, [01:19:00]

[01:19:00] Dean Broyles: I think that's, I think we're gonna see that conversation grow and [01:19:05] actually that the same firm that, um. Is [01:19:10] litigating the Bare Belly case is, is suing Kaiser for Chloe Cole. [01:19:15] So, um,

[01:19:16] Stephanie Winn: so I did have, um, Benjamin Ryan on this podcast to discuss [01:19:20] the Arian v Einhorn verdict.

[01:19:22] Stephanie Winn: As soon as that happened, and I, I've been [01:19:25] in the gender Cris scene long enough. I remember when we were all like, what about when there's [01:19:30] finally a verdict? You know, like it, it was years of like, we need one of these [01:19:35] cases to succeed. And then, and then it happened, right? And it was very in the Einhorn and it feels so [01:19:40] significant to me as a therapist who's speaking out against this issue and who's [01:19:45] completely pivoted my career to focus on this issue in a much different way than I ever [01:19:50] imagined possible.

[01:19:51] Stephanie Winn: Um, that the very first [01:19:55] Detransition lawsuit to succeed found the psychologist, [01:20:00] 70% liable for the harm. That is huge [01:20:05] and. I mentioned it on that episode, and I'm gonna mention it again here, [01:20:10] that the psychologist in that case worked [01:20:15] for the company that essentially, [01:20:20] what's the word? When a company buys out, another company?

[01:20:23] Stephanie Winn: Acquired, [01:20:25] yeah. Acquired, um, uh, the company that acquired the company I [01:20:30] used to work for, in other words, I worked for one little company over here that was regional. He worked for [01:20:35] one little company over here that was regional. The same company bought out both of those [01:20:40] nationwide. Right. So I would've been colleagues with this guy.

[01:20:44] Stephanie Winn: I mean, we're [01:20:45] basically professional cousins. The guy, the guy who's found [01:20:50] 70% liable. And of course the company doesn't want the spotlight on them. Nobody knows that life [01:20:55] stands health is, um, Einhorn's employer. But [01:21:00] I'll say it 'cause I don't mind. I don't mind [01:21:05] saying that, uh, you know, that there, there are individuals.

[01:21:09] Stephanie Winn: I mean, [01:21:10] the, the whole way that this was handled in the case, um, you know, [01:21:15] there, there must have been some agreements behind closed doors that they were gonna keep the focus on the individual [01:21:20] psychologist and not the environment that he worked in. But I think at some [01:21:25] point we have to deal with the environment because as a therapist who worked in a group [01:21:30] setting, probably quite similar to the group setting that he worked in, there is a [01:21:35] standard of care established in that environment where if you don't, [01:21:40] um.

[01:21:40] Stephanie Winn: Have the proper expertise for a certain presenting problem, you'd go and [01:21:45] talk to a colleague, or you get more training, or you bring it up at a clinical [01:21:50] meeting with your colleagues and you say, Hey, does anybody, can I consult with you about this [01:21:55] gender dysphoria case? Or whatever? Right. And gender dysphoria, by the way, was like never in her [01:22:00] record even.

[01:22:01] Stephanie Winn: Um, so as, [01:22:05] as the heat gets turned toward therapists for their [01:22:10] role in this, right, everyone's gonna wanna pass the buck. Oh, I was just following orders. I was [01:22:15] just doing what I was told. But as you know, people like Einhorn got found [01:22:20] liable, uh, for the harm that they've done in, you know, detransition our [01:22:25] cases or other forms of malpractice.

[01:22:27] Stephanie Winn: At some point we have to look at what are company [01:22:30] policies, what's being taught at trainings. Um. [01:22:35] Like the culture of, uh, psychotherapy. And so on that [01:22:40] note, I know that you, uh, advise therapists, um, mostly in [01:22:45] California. Um, and some of that has to do [01:22:50] with, um, religious therapists who want to offer, [01:22:55] um, voluntary talk therapy, uh, for people with [01:23:00] unwanted same sex attraction.

[01:23:01] Stephanie Winn: That's not something we're gonna get into here because I am Switzerland on that [01:23:05] issue. But, um, I'm curious, uh, because that's, that's kind of the more [01:23:10] extreme manifestation. I know a lot of therapists who, um, just wanna be [01:23:15] able to speak more freely about gender identity. Um, what can you say to the [01:23:20] therapist in the audience, particularly the therapist in California or any [01:23:25] other blue states that you might know of?

[01:23:27] Stephanie Winn: Um. About [01:23:30] their freedom of speech and their freedom to, uh, [01:23:35] adhere to their conscience and their sincerely held beliefs in counseling [01:23:40] relationships with young people presenting with gender distress. What can you say to those therapists who are [01:23:45] listening?

[01:23:46] Dean Broyles: Yeah, so there's a case pending before the Supreme Court.

[01:23:48] Dean Broyles: Right now. It's a [01:23:50] child's case outta Colorado. And, um, I was asked to [01:23:55] file an amicus brief in that case, but I was too busy to do it at the time. But, um, a lot of [01:24:00] the counselors and therapists I work with filed briefs in that case. And [01:24:05] it's pretty clear that the US Supreme Court is [01:24:10] going to uphold the right of people in talk therapy [01:24:15] to not have compelled speech.

[01:24:17] Dean Broyles: Right? And in, in this [01:24:20] case, Charles happens to be a Christian. Um, but [01:24:25] um, her. It's not, it's not just her religious liberty. [01:24:30] It's at stake. It's, it's whether counseling, you know, [01:24:35] uh, licensing bodies and, and state officials can, can coerce speech as [01:24:40] far as talk therapy and talk therapy, um, [01:24:45] is classic free speech.

[01:24:47] Dean Broyles: And, and, and, and we believe that [01:24:50] the US Supreme Court's gonna affirm that principle. So [01:24:55] whatever side you're on of, of the, um, same sex attraction issue or the [01:25:00] transgender issue, um, what we advocate and what we think the [01:25:05] Supreme Court's gonna, uh, affirm is, is the right to speak as [01:25:10] freely as possible without being constrained or coerced or pressured.

[01:25:13] Dean Broyles: And, you know, [01:25:15] jumping back to the malpractice issue, I think that, [01:25:20] um. One of the things, one of the fallouts of this whole, uh, transgender [01:25:25] agenda is that the adults in the room and the professionals in, in the room, by adults, [01:25:30] I mean teachers, parents, therapists, uh, surgeons, [01:25:35] did not behave like adults. And they were not objective and they didn't look at [01:25:40] the truth, and they gave way too much autonomy to the child whose prefrontal [01:25:45] cortex, as I said earlier, wasn't developed.

[01:25:46] Dean Broyles: And so we, the adults failed. Kids have [01:25:50] failed kids, and we need to apologize for that, repent of that, and, [01:25:55] and never do it again. So that's my soapbox for today.

[01:25:58] Stephanie Winn: That's a great [01:26:00] soapbox. Well, where can people find you?

[01:26:02] Dean Broyles: I have a website, it's [01:26:05] nclp law.org. It stands for National Center for Law and [01:26:10] Policy and uh, law.org.

[01:26:12] Dean Broyles: And I do a little bit on [01:26:15] Twitter and some on Facebook, but. The main place to find us is probably on our [01:26:20] website or, or, or check us out on Facebook, but we're, [01:26:25] I've been involved in the whole, um, uh, identity, [01:26:30] sexual identity movement probably for the last 25 years in various [01:26:35] legal and public policy aspects.

[01:26:36] Dean Broyles: So, um, very familiar with it and very, [01:26:40] very pleased that, um, on, on this issue, we seem to be [01:26:45] pushing, uh, telling the truth and pushing back evil and winning. So I'm [01:26:50] really encouraged right now.

[01:26:52] Stephanie Winn: Well, thank you so much, Dean Broyles, for all [01:26:55] of your advocacy, all the work that you're doing to, um, [01:27:00] help our movement succeed and for sharing your expertise with us on the podcast today.[01:27:05]

[01:27:05] Stephanie Winn: It's been a pleasure.

[01:27:06] Dean Broyles: Thank you so much, Stephanie. Good to meet with you. [01:27:10]

[01:27:10] Stephanie Winn: Thank you for listening to you Must Be Some Kind of Therapist. If you [01:27:15] enjoyed this episode, kindly take a moment to rate, review, share, or comment [01:27:20] on it using your platform of choice. And of course, please remember, [01:27:25] podcasts are not therapy and I'm not your therapist.

[01:27:28] Stephanie Winn: Special thanks to [01:27:30] Joey Rero for this awesome theme song, half Awake and to Pods by Nick [01:27:35] for production. For help navigating the impact of the gender craze on your [01:27:40] family, be sure to check out my program for parents, ROGD, [01:27:45] repair. Any resource you heard mentioned on this show plus how to [01:27:50] get in touch with me, can all be found in the notes and links below.[01:27:55]

[01:27:55] Stephanie Winn: Rain or shine. I hope you will step outside to breathe the air today [01:28:00] in the words of Max Airman. With all its sham, drudgery and broken [01:28:05] dreams, it is still a beautiful [01:28:10] [01:28:15] [01:28:20] [01:28:25] [01:28:30] [01:28:35] [01:28:40] world.