You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist

[00:00:00] Tanya: I think one of the invisible things that's happened is that a lot of sensible people have left these big organizations, so they've had a massive brain drain, and what's happened is that they have lost their best people. They've lost their critical thinkers who tried to tell them something's wrong with this [00:00:15] stuff, and they got shouted down or told to be quiet, or they saw someone else get shouted down or told to be quiet, and they thought, "I'm just not gonna pick that fight.

[00:00:23] Tanya: I'm just gonna leave that for someone else, or I'm gonna leave it for another day." And then they just leave when they can. They either retire early, or they take a job with a, you know, with a friend who they know who they don't have[00:00:30]

[00:00:31] Tanya: to do all the woke stuff with. So you've lost some really good people, and what you're left with is all the nodding dogs who just go along with stuff because everyone else is going along with it. Now, those are the worst people in your organization. So you've lost the [00:00:45] best people, and you've kept the worst people.

[00:00:48] SKOT: You must be some kind of therapist?

[00:00:54] Stephanie: Today my guest is Tanya de Grunwald. We've talked a lot on this podcast about institutional [00:01:00] capture. I've interviewed people who've been whistleblowers and gotten fired from their jobs for speaking out against the institutional capture. And today we're going to take a different angle thanks to Tanya's expertise.

[00:01:13] Stephanie: She is the host of the [00:01:15] podcast This Isn't Working, about workplace dynamics, and as... She is also the creator of This Is Working, a business community for employers. So if you have any interest, as many of my listeners do, in what is going [00:01:30] on with institutional capture, virtue signaling, workplace dynamics affected by the intersection of politics and culture, I think you're gonna enjoy today's guest.

[00:01:39] Stephanie: Tanya, welcome. Thanks for joining me.

[00:01:41] Tanya: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me on. I'm hoping that this might double as a therapy [00:01:45] session for me as well- ... given that I'm hearing some crazy stuff going on in our workplaces, so maybe you've got some thoughts for me. I've certainly got some for you.

[00:01:52] Stephanie: Yeah.

[00:01:53] Stephanie: Well, what kind of stuff are you hearing about that compels you to make this your primary focus?

[00:01:58] Tanya: Well, um, I started [00:02:00] the podcast about two years ago, and really I was looking into what we can broadly call sort of workplace dysfunction, um, particularly things to do with culture and people and leadership and, um, and how all these companies went so [00:02:15] into DEI, the diversity, equity, and inclusion agenda, and how all of that kind of mushroomed and spread, but also how it got baked into policy so quickly, um, and how some of these mad ideas got kind of normalized really, really quickly, given [00:02:30] that these are all people who are usually fairly sensible, particularly in the private sector.

[00:02:34] Tanya: Um, you know, they're quite business-focused. They wanna make money. They want productive workplaces. What were they ever doing get- drifting into all this kind of social justice activism? Uh, so that didn't [00:02:45] really fit for me, and I was interested in kind of exploring that. I think I'm the only person doing that in the world, actually.

[00:02:49] Tanya: I have, um, I have, um, listeners from all around the world. Um, I mainly talk about the UK, but I think there's a lot that everybody else can take from it, because I think one of the things I realized [00:03:00] quite quickly was that, um- There is obviously a large political agenda to this stuff, but there's also a real personal driver behind the people who are pushing it, and I don't think that's given enough credit, and that's why I wanted to talk to you about it [00:03:15] really as well.

[00:03:16] Tanya: Yeah.

[00:03:17] Stephanie: Okay, let's talk about those personal factors then. What are some of the one, the patterns you recognize in, in people's character and their psychology that contribute to workplace wokeness getting [00:03:30] so out of control?

[00:03:31] Tanya: Yeah, I mean, I should probably first e- um, explain that the reason why I started this podcast was 'cause in the kind of l- years leading up to that, I was running something called The Good and Fair Employers Club, which is my own business, and it was for the heads of, head of [00:03:45] early careers, which is the person that looks after graduate schemes and apprenticeships at lots of big companies.

[00:03:50] Tanya: So, um, AstraZeneca, the NHS, KPMG, Google, they were all members of my club. And I would bring them together to talk to each other about how to hire young people, how to go out onto [00:04:00] university campuses. Um, we did that all the way through COVID as well, and they were really making a big effort to hire from as broad a pool of young people as possible, which sounds like good stuff, right?

[00:04:11] Tanya: That felt like a really good thing to do. They wanted to make sure they were hiring the best [00:04:15] people, and they didn't feel like they were getting a proper diversity of people, so they thought, "We must be missing out on people." So really, they were trying to find... They were trying to kind of expand their talent pools and remove barriers to entry.

[00:04:27] Tanya: Those were the sorts of things they talked about. And when I [00:04:30] saw-- So that all made sense to me, and I was on board with all that stuff, particularly on what they call social mobility. I don't know if that's a, that's a phrase that's used around the world or not, but to do with p- you know, getting people from disadvantaged backgrounds into good jobs.

[00:04:42] Tanya: You know, trying to make it so that class, which is a big thing in [00:04:45] the UK, as you probably know, doesn't hold you back in life. So they were really trying to move towards what they thought was meritocracy. Um, but I saw that kind of starting to go wrong, and I saw the unintended cons- consequences of some of that stuff, particularly [00:05:00] around race.

[00:05:00] Tanya: Um, and then there was the trans agenda, which all came in as well. So I saw all that stuff go wrong, but by the time they realized it had gone wrong, um, and they weren't activists. My, I mean, my, um, my members, my clients were, you know, generally [00:05:15] in their 30s, maybe early 40s. They were pretty sensible people.

[00:05:17] Tanya: They weren't mad, you know, blue-haired, you know, uh, recent graduates. So- By the time they realized something had gone really wrong with the work they thought was good, it had become really taboo to talk about any of it [00:05:30] and to say, "Well, actually, this isn't really working. We've got this problem. There are all these unintended consequences."

[00:05:34] Tanya: So by the end of 2024, I thought, "I don't think I can keep doing this. I can't keep running this club if I can't mention the fact that I think they've made some huge mistakes here, and I think particularly w- [00:05:45] with the, with the sort of trans stuff." Um, so I ended up kind of closing that, and then I started the, the, um, uh, This Isn't Working really just to talk about the stuff that I'd seen.

[00:05:54] Tanya: But, so I think it puts me in a good position because people from Google and places are never gonna talk [00:06:00] about what the hell they were doing between 2018 and 2024, which was those peak DEI years, whereas I know what they were doing. I have to be a bit careful not to mention my clients by name 'cause nobody would want to work with me again.

[00:06:11] Tanya: But, um, I'd like to... You know, I know some of that stuff, and I think it's an [00:06:15] important piece of the puzzle. So I think when I, when I first started listening to the people that were pushing back, particularly in the kind of podcast, um, sphere. I was listening to your stuff more than two years ago, I would say.

[00:06:26] Tanya: Um, you know, I was, I was hearing all these really super clever, [00:06:30] you know, academic types talking about the DEI, you know, from the, from the political kind of perspective. And I just thought, "This doesn't match with what I know about how this agenda came in." It doesn't match. If you've ever sat in on a DEI [00:06:45] webinar, you know these are not, these are not the greatest, these are not the greatest political thinkers, these people.

[00:06:50] Tanya: Frankly, they're not very bright, most of them. Like, that's shouldn't really be a spoiler, but they're not very bright. They don't know their history. They don't know their politics. They're really driven kind of [00:07:00] by their own feelings. So I think we've really overestimated how intelligent the kind of opposition to DEI...

[00:07:07] Tanya: Uh, uh, sorry. W- w- we've kind of, um, overestimated the intelligence of this, this crowd, and therefore, therefore, uh, [00:07:15] because they are driven purely by their feelings and their own stuff, and some of it I think is their childhood stuff- They can kind of never be wrong because they're coming from an emotional place.

[00:07:25] Tanya: And so I saw it in those kind of, um, DEI [00:07:30] workshops and things where, you know, you'd have an hour online. I was, I was kind of sitting in the audience even though I wasn't really invited. You could just... At that time, you could kind of enter all these things. I'd be listening thinking, "Wow, okay, this is some head of DEI from somewhere or some consultant who's hosting a thing, and there's a panel."

[00:07:44] Tanya: Honestly, [00:07:45] for the fir- for the... It would be like an hour session, but for the first 20 minutes or so, people would just be kind of going round talking about their own stuff, like really quite personal stuff. And I thought, "This is like ba- like really bad group therapy. This is like group therapy without a therapist, let [00:08:00] alone a good therapist."

[00:08:01] Tanya: And it's just everyone just sharing all their stuff. And I, and I realized quite quickly this is not political, but it's also not professional. It was just people sharing their own stuff. So I kind of, and then, then I realized when I started to challenge some of these people who [00:08:15] I would find on LinkedIn, I'm quite well-known on LinkedIn now, I'm quite active, and I would start to go, "Ooh, you know, have you thought about this from a different perspective?

[00:08:20] Tanya: You know, for example, not everybody believes in gender identity." See how well that goes down in 2022. Um, and, um, and they would give [00:08:30] me, if they responded at all, they'd be really aggressive, and many of them would just block me immediately. And I thought, well, political people love an argument, right? They love to get we- they love to weigh in and tell you why they're right and you're wrong.[00:08:45]

[00:08:45] Tanya: That wasn't what I was seeing at all. These people could not handle any kind of challenge, um, especially from someone doing the kind of reasonable... I, I would do that reasonable thing. You know, they say, you know, "Just asking questions." Well, that's me, I'm just asking questions, right? And so I [00:09:00] do that on LinkedIn, and I'm very reasonable and I'm very measured, and I actually never say what I think of anything.

[00:09:04] Tanya: I quite often say, "Oh, have you thought about some of your colleagues who might not be on board with all this stuff? Have you thought about some of your colleagues, you know, for example, whose children might have got drawn into the, you know, thinking that [00:09:15] they're trans or, you know," um, and they would, and they would just couldn't handle it.

[00:09:18] Tanya: So I realized quite quickly that there was this kind of really personal agenda to it, and I, and I, and then I started thinking, well- How is this being allowed in workplaces? [00:09:30] Like, this has been... It was sort of fashionable for a while, and then it kind of has gotten really, really bad. And so you see things like staff networks, which are sometimes called employee resource groups, but these sort of activistic groups within large organizations which are just sitting there.

[00:09:44] Tanya: Everybody's just talking about [00:09:45] their own stuff. It's quite political. It's very personal, about race, about the trans stuff, and I'm thinking, "This is not... This doesn't belong in any workplace. What on earth are these employers doing allowing these conversations to happen, and giving these people some power in terms of [00:10:00] where, where the organization goes from here?"

[00:10:03] Tanya: So yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot going on there.

[00:10:06] Stephanie: You've pointed out problems that will probably sound familiar to a lot of our listeners. The, um, the bleeding of the personal life [00:10:15] into the professional life feels like a, a cultural, maybe a generational trend. Um, and so what did you discover about the conditions that made for this?

[00:10:26] Stephanie: Because there are different groups of people involved. Um, [00:10:30] obviously at the end of the day, every single person involved is an individual, but it sounds like you were noticing some patterns in terms of, um, like you said, some people who are not very bright who allowed or perpetuated these dynamics. Um, maybe I'm going to guess that, [00:10:45] that some of what you're referring to are, like, younger folks bringing into the workplace the kind of culture they've grown accustomed to on college campuses.

[00:10:52] Stephanie: Um, and then you're also noticing that people in charge who should, theoretically speaking, know better, [00:11:00] people who, who should be protecting the mission of the company and the organization, making sure worker time is u- being used in a way that's mission aligned rather than taking all of these detours about people's personal lives and identity politics.

[00:11:14] Stephanie: [00:11:15] Uh, what are some of the, the personality traits or the psychological factors that you notice contribute to this pattern?

[00:11:23] Tanya: Well, I think there's a kind of embarrassment in the private sector about capitalism, about being capitalist, and about making [00:11:30] money. So I think depending on the company that you worked for, you might be so embarrassed, for example, about working for, um, an advertising company which, which, you know, sells stuff to people.

[00:11:41] Tanya: It's a, you know, it's all about consumers. Uh, or working for an oil company, [00:11:45] that you would have to sort of try and find some kind of higher purpose within the job that you were doing. So I think a lot of these sorts of ideas about diversity in the broadest sense came into these businesses, and sustainability is another one, so within the, [00:12:00] within the oil companies.

[00:12:01] Tanya: But they were like, they didn't wanna s- they didn't like saying, "I work for BP or Shell," or any of the big oil companies. They didn't like saying, "Oh, I sell, you know, I help," you know, you know, the big, um, you know, the big, you know, uh, FMCG companies to, you know, sell [00:12:15] stuff to people. They like saying, "Oh, we're doing great work in this way, and we're, you know, you know, are d- doing a really good diversity program, and, you know, I'm working on getting more women into the business," and that, that, that...

[00:12:24] Tanya: So this whole agenda came into the business itself, but also particularly into who they were [00:12:30] hiring. We want to be more representative. We want to look like our customers. You know, the idea... People would just talk about, you know, we don't want, um, our senior people to be pale, male, and stale, was the, was the phrase.

[00:12:41] Tanya: I mean, I think I used that phrase at one point, which is terrible, isn't it? I sound [00:12:45] awful. Um, but there was- I think

[00:12:45] Stephanie: one of my former guests used that term to describe himself, and he was also British, and that was the first time I heard it. So I guess this is a cute little British phrase that you have.

[00:12:54] Tanya: Yeah.

[00:12:55] Stephanie: Pale, male, and-

[00:12:55] Tanya: I mean, I don't think... I don't know how cute it sounds now. I think it sounds pretty bad now. It probably sounded pretty bad then, to [00:13:00] be honest, but

[00:13:00] Stephanie: it just became- Oh, it was cute when he did it. Yeah. I think it was Bob Withers who said that.

[00:13:04] Tanya: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I think it just... So there was a sort of embarrassment about the kind of old...

[00:13:09] Tanya: Everything, suddenly everything looked very old-fashioned. If you had, uh, you know, a whole load of white people on your board, if [00:13:15] any company got into any kind of problem over race or, uh, or there was a sex scandal or anything like that, immediately there'd be this sort of social media backlash. Here's their board.

[00:13:24] Tanya: Here's all these blokes on the, you know, on the senior, senior leadership team. And so they really genuinely thought, "Ugh, [00:13:30] we look really old-fashioned here. We wanna try and bring in some freshness." So all of those ideas were sort of sloshing around within the business world as well. There were a lot of myths about how diversity leads to increased productivity and increased profit, some of them run by, um, s- [00:13:45] from some very big reports from McKinsey, one of the, one of the world's biggest, um, consulting firms, and that, that's all based on really bad data it turns out.

[00:13:53] Tanya: So those ideas were kind of sloshing around as kind of business ideas as well, and then they came into sort of HR and [00:14:00] DEI in terms of who you were hiring and how you were hiring them. And then that came into the culture of the organization as well. So for example, you would have these staff networks for women or for Black people or for LGBT, and they were usually not supervised at all, [00:14:15] but that, the, that would be the perfect place for people to come in Talk about all this personal stuff, like you say, that kind of blending of the personal, um, with the professional, and suddenly there was no professional kind of basis for any of it at all.

[00:14:29] Tanya: So you [00:14:30] had... I mean, I think within the I think probably within the kind of, within that framework, I would say you see a lot of different things going on. I know women are getting a lot of flack for having created a lot of this woke nightmare that we're [00:14:45] in now. I don't usually use, use the word woke, but I think it's quite helpful here.

[00:14:48] Tanya: Um, and I accept some of that. I do think there's been a feminization, and I think HR people do tend to be women, and that, and that's, that's an issue. But I also think there's a lot of stuff, I don't think it's as [00:15:00] clear-cut as that. So I think, I mean, I actually see a lot of gay men, middle-aged gay men who are pushing the trans stuff really hard still.

[00:15:08] Tanya: And in the UK, we're doing reasonably well actually at kind of resetting some of this stuff, and it's the gay men within the big, [00:15:15] um, corporations who are still pushing it, um, older gay men particularly. And I think they're bringing in some of their own personal kind of childhood stuff actually. I don't think they actually care about the, anybody they would call trans at all.

[00:15:28] Tanya: It's, it usually comes [00:15:30] down to, "Well, I know how it feels to be the only gay boy in the class." I remember Margaret Thatcher, when she was prime minister, she brought in all these, these, um, this is thing called Section 28, which they still talk about now as being very painful for them if you're, if you're a gay man of a certain age and you were [00:15:45] brought up in the UK.

[00:15:46] Tanya: This is very painful stuff around their own shame, I think. And I think what they're doing is they're not fighting for their, like, trans-identified colleagues. They're really fighting for little them. They're trying to go back and rescue little boy them, um, [00:16:00] who didn't, who was made to feel ashamed. Uh, I- I mean, this has nothing to do with the world of work.

[00:16:05] Tanya: This is just all their stuff, right? But they get really emotional talking about these things. Um, and that's when I realized again that this was actually their own stuff. And then I [00:16:15] went to the Stonewall, presumably people know who, who, who Stonewall are, LG- biggest LGBT kind of charity in the UK. I went to their conference a couple of years ago with Maya Forstater, in fact.

[00:16:26] Tanya: And, uh, there were, there were lots of, um, gay guys there, and [00:16:30] honestly, some of them are practically in tears giving their, giving their speeches about this stuff. And these guys are 55, 60, and it's still very live for them, so they're pushing a lot of this stuff as well. You have the young women, I think you probably talk a lot about young women activists who are pushing this stuff and [00:16:45] the, the be kind young women a- kind of enforcers of this stuff who are, you know, they've just been socialized to, to put being kind and being nice above everything else, so they're pretty easy, pretty easy prey if you've got a new idea you want to push.

[00:16:59] Tanya: [00:17:00] They're useful. Older women, I think some of them lost their, lost their way with this completely. Um, and they started being the kind of be kind mom types. I think they've actually quietened down a little bit now because, because the [00:17:15] law has been clarified in the UK, and I think most of them are quite pleased that we now have a right to single-sex spaces that's really, really clear in law So I think they've kind of shifted their, shifted their position a little bit and they'll say, they'll say things like, "Well, you know, of course, you know, you know, it's really important to be [00:17:30] trans inclusive, but actually I do think we need single sex spaces too."

[00:17:33] Tanya: Which of course doesn't really quite work, but they, they, so they sort of, they've changed a bit there. Um, then you've got the sort of, there are some men who are like, I would call the kind of beta [00:17:45] male allies. I, I sort of really hate the word ally. The, the, the sort of male allies are the worst. The male feminists are the worst.

[00:17:51] Tanya: They're just like... But I think they just, I think they're actually just looking to pick up. They're just like, they just kind of gets them close to women and a lot of women [00:18:00] think, "Oh, these guys are so nice." I don't, you probably wouldn't if you could see what they write on LinkedIn either, but I'm like, these are just creep- these are just guys who just like are not winning at life, but like to get in with the girls.

[00:18:10] Tanya: Um, so there's some of that. Then you get the affirming parents of trans identifying [00:18:15] children who are in senior roles, um, and they'll be pushing this agenda as well. Um, and sometimes they are part of the, um, LGBT kind of staff networks as well. So there's a really unhealthy, uh, kind of dotted line between [00:18:30] the junior people in some of these networks, and I would say LGBT is the worst in terms of the most active, directly to the, um, really senior people, you know, really senior people.

[00:18:41] Tanya: Um, and they, they'll be called senior champions. And it's [00:18:45] a, that's a really unusual relationship for people who are 22 to have any sort of personal friendship with somebody who's like 60 and really senior. It's just, it's just not right. In a large organization, it is not right, but that's all been really [00:19:00] normalized.

[00:19:00] Tanya: And then there's just a lot of people, I think who just had difficult childhoods, frankly, and difficult teenage years, who kind of weaponize their own lived experience to win arguments. Whatever the argument is, they just win it by saying, "Well, I know this, and you know, of course I had such a difficult time, and well, you know, I [00:19:15] mean, I know better than you do."

[00:19:16] Tanya: So if you are someone who has, didn't have a difficult childhood or even if you did, and you've just kind of moved on and moved past it, and you are now quite robust, you find yourself arguing with somebody who's frankly very fragile and is using their [00:19:30] fragility to win the argument. And I think a lot of people Really just thought, I don't, I don't wanna have a fight with this person at work, you know?

[00:19:37] Tanya: And they're just picking their battles, and everybody started making calculations about can I really be bothered to fight this, fight this argument about flags [00:19:45] or pronouns or whatever it is, or should I just let it go? So I think that's kind of how all this stuff kind of got normalized really. I don't know if some of that makes any sense to you from your perspective.

[00:19:55] Tanya: I mean, I know you, you do lots of work with the parents of trans-identifying children who aren't [00:20:00] affirming, right? And I don't think they have-- they don't get any air time at all within these conversations. It's just completely, it's completely, um, affirming. And I have spoken to some parents of, um, of trans-identified children, um, [00:20:15] who've said how difficult it's been when they're going through all that stuff at home, and then they wanna come to work and just get on with their work, and they can't 'cause it's bloody Pride Month, and all this stuff is everywhere.

[00:20:24] Tanya: And in-- they don't feel they can say, "Actually, I'm not into this stuff. I don't think this is [00:20:30] wonderful news for everybody. I don't-- I'm not prepared to celebrate trans joy. I, you know, I don't wanna hear this stuff." So I think all these organizations went all in with one perspective. I know why that happened.

[00:20:42] Tanya: It was the way it was presented [00:20:45] was a kind of like it was the new gay rights thing. But by the time they realized there was a problem with it, it was really difficult to talk about it, and that's kind of how it happened. That sounds really lame now, doesn't it? But that is what happened.

[00:20:56] Stephanie: Towards the beginning there, you framed [00:21:00] each of these groups as downstream of embarrassment about capitalism.

[00:21:07] Stephanie: And you know, it reminds me of, you know, similar things in that genre like white guilt, and I, I consider these things to be [00:21:15] masochistic in nature, psychologically masochistic. Um- And it really stands out when you use an example like all of this happening at an oil company, for example, um, because [00:21:30] that really highlights the contrast between what most ethically driven people would be looking for in terms of a meaningful career versus almost this quasi or [00:21:45] pseudo sense of meaningfulness that comes from taking a job where ultimately you are a drone, you are a cog in a machine, you are, you know, advancing some agenda that has very little [00:22:00] to do with your values or with the wellbeing of your family and community, um, especially if you're working for a multinational corporation, right, that is in business to make money, like you said.

[00:22:11] Stephanie: So it almost feels like these dynamics where [00:22:15] they're politicizing the personal and blurring the lines between work and home and introducing victim narratives wherever you go almost feels like it's a substitute for a genuine sense of meaning that I think most people I talk to [00:22:30] want to have some degree of in their work.

[00:22:31] Stephanie: I mean, yeah, I mean, some people are happy to just go work wherever for a paycheck, and their meaning comes from providing for their family or from some kind of extracurricular or religious activity. But I [00:22:45] know personally, having a meaningful career has always been very important to me. I mean, it-- back in my young life when I didn't know what I was going to do professionally, it really bothered me.

[00:22:56] Stephanie: Like, I'm like, "I have to feel like the way I'm spending the [00:23:00] majority of my, my waking hours is somehow making a positive difference in the world. So it, it feels like the dynamics I'm hearing you describe kind of hook into that desire for meaning, the desire to feel like our time is valuable. And [00:23:15] rather than questioning the essential purpose of a company or whether they might wanna make a career pivot on an individual level, there's this thing that kinda comes in and is like, "Oh, you wanna feel meaningful.

[00:23:27] Stephanie: You wanna feel important. Well, identity [00:23:30] politics might work for you."

[00:23:32] Tanya: Yeah. Yeah, I think so. And I think that just became... It was kind of fashionable as well, wasn't it? And I think, again, I think activism, I don't even think it's a very specific issues-based thing, just sort of rather [00:23:45] shallow activism has become a sort of hobby for quite a lot of people.

[00:23:48] Tanya: Um, you know, whatever the kind of issue of the day is. Um, and I think they were looking to bring some of that into, into their work, whether or not it was really relevant. I mean, I think interestingly with the [00:24:00] work that I'm doing now with the employers who are pulling out of this stuff, that's true that this is working, um, business network, is I think that we think in the private sector, which is moving fastest to get out of this stuff, the answer looks like [00:24:15] rediscovering purpose.

[00:24:16] Tanya: The purpose is that we're running a company here that creates jobs, creates wealth, it creates opportunity, you know, and that's good enough. That's actually good enough. That's the thing that we do here. And if, and [00:24:30] if the company does well, then everybody keeps their jobs and everybody gets to take home money for their family, happy days.

[00:24:36] Tanya: You don't need to be pushing any particular political, political agenda that, that should never, that never belonged here. But I think, I think everybody went in, and I think they all... There's a [00:24:45] real kind of herd mentality that's happened here, and h- part of that has been because I think it's be- there haven't been very many spaces for people to talk about what's really going on.

[00:24:55] Tanya: I mean, within... I mean, I know the UK the best, so- I can tell you that if I look at [00:25:00] how, what should have happened around 2017, 2018 when all these weird ideas started emerging and we had sort of trans, the trans stuff was everywhere, the race stuff was bubbling already before 2020. It all, it was all there already.

[00:25:14] Tanya: We should have [00:25:15] had proper spaces. We should, should have had a proper industry press talking about HR. Um, we should have had a c- a healthy, a healthy conference sector would've been encouraging open discussion here with really senior people, that if those [00:25:30] companies were healthy, the marketing department should have allowed their HR directors to go to these conferences and speak honestly.

[00:25:36] Tanya: They didn't. They told them either to not to go or don't talk about anything controversial. So really k- kind of com- normal, robust [00:25:45] discussion died, which meant that all these conversations either went underground or they disappeared completely, which gave an illusion of consensus that we were all just doing this DEI stuff.

[00:25:55] Tanya: This is the fashionable thing. Got to be inclusive, and there wasn't any space to [00:26:00] go, "Wait, wait, if we're inclu- if we include, if we're trans inclusive," whatever that means, "that, that's gonna have an impact on women," or, "There are some gay people actually that aren't really into this stuff," or, but there wasn't any space to ask those questions.

[00:26:13] Tanya: So I th- I don't think it's like everyone was [00:26:15] just really into it, but I do think, I mean, I'm an extrovert, so when I, so I think, you know, I tend to think things through by talking them through. And it's only when you say out loud if someone says, "Well, what is trans?" And you go, "Uh, it's when you're born in the wrong body."

[00:26:28] Tanya: And they go, "What do you mean?" And you go, "I'm not [00:26:30] really quite sure what I mean." And then you realize that you actually don't understand something at all. It's only then that you're trying to explain it to someone, then you realize you don't understand it. So there weren't any spaces where you could sort of think out loud and think, "Actually, I'm not sure this works."

[00:26:44] Tanya: So every- [00:26:45] so everyone just sort of pushed it to the side and went, "Well, everyone else is into this, so I guess let's just do it," until it reaches the point where you think, "No, something's really wrong here. This is not right." But of course, by that point, you know, the media were all in on it too, so all our journalism was all pushing all these [00:27:00] messages as well.

[00:27:01] Tanya: So to be fair to the HR people, if I'm, if I'm being generous, which possibly your listeners won't feel very generous to them, particularly if they've had awful experiences of having to, you know, try and get some of this stuff out of the workplace and failed or found it very difficult [00:27:15] If I'm being generous, the, you know, the, the preconditions were set up so that this was going to happen.

[00:27:23] Tanya: I can't actually decide. I keep changing my mind on that one. Was it inevitable or wasn't it? Was there ever gonna be a world where [00:27:30] a healthy, a healthy HR industry, a healthy business community would've talked about this stuff straight away and gone, "Hang on a minute, there are some bits of this that don't work."

[00:27:40] Tanya: And even things like D- you know the phrase DEI hire? Which is, which is a [00:27:45] horrible phrase really. You know, even if, if people start to lose faith that you're doing good work around race, they're gonna start being suspicious of the new person that you've hired who happens to be Black. And if it's a Black woman, they're gonna be really suspicious that she's not good enough.

[00:27:59] Tanya: Maybe she is good [00:28:00] enough. Maybe she got it on merit, maybe she didn't. But they should've been able to talk much sooner about the fact that there would always be suspicion around her, particularly if she found it difficult, you know, in her first month or so. Like, who is this really benefiting? The unintended consequences were there [00:28:15] very quickly.

[00:28:16] Tanya: Um, so what I'm trying to do through the, through the, um, This Is Working is bring back normalizing that kind of discussion, and people are really loving it. You can, you can find a way to talk about it and say, "Ooh, you know, did we go all in with one set of ideas here? Should we have checked out [00:28:30] more options?

[00:28:31] Tanya: And, you know, should we have kept a closer eye on who these trainers," I use that term loosely, but, "who these activists were who were coming in to do training, who were giving us bad advice?" Which it wasn't legal advice, but the advice [00:28:45] had legal consequences. If you took it on, it turns out you were probably baking bad law into your policies.

[00:28:52] Tanya: So, you know, this, there was a sort of collapse in standards, but I think the collapse in standards was downstream of the collapse in communication between [00:29:00] them all talking to each other.

[00:29:01] Stephanie: What are the consequences of these bad choices?

[00:29:04] Tanya: Well, I mean, the, I mean, the big example at the moment is the whole, the way that- A lot of these organizations have been behaving as [00:29:15] if in the UK we've had self ID the whole time, and we never did have self ID.

[00:29:19] Tanya: So you could never just use whichever bathroom you felt comfortable with, whether that's, you know, it, you know, in the, the local swimming pool or at work. But a lot of organizations believe [00:29:30] that to be the case. Um, and actually since the Supreme Court ruling, it's, um, in the UK in 2025, it's become really clear that, A, that was never the law, and B, it's definitely not the law now even if you've got a gender recognition certificate.

[00:29:42] Tanya: So it's absolutely not okay to [00:29:45] do that, and they've brought in, you know, much more clarity around that. But of course, a lot of organizations have just been kind of doing their own thing, um, having been given advice probably by some, you know, trans-identified man who came [00:30:00] in and gave them some advice saying that was the law.

[00:30:03] Tanya: Might have come from Stonewall or one of the activist groups. And so without even checking that, they will have just written that into their HR policies around LGBT. They would call it their trans inclusion policy, [00:30:15] you know. Um, lots of these organizations have a, um, you know, their health insurance will cover, um, well, I don't know if we still call it gender affirming care, but all the surgeries and hormones and stuff without anybody thinking, wait a second, if we're [00:30:30] doing that, are we, are we saying that we as an organization think this stuff is a great idea?

[00:30:35] Tanya: Are we, are we liable for anything if this turns out to be a mistake, um, you know, for that person? Are they gonna say, "Well, you paid for it," you know? Um, so I [00:30:45] think there's a lot of, there's a lot of issues that have come in. I think one of the invisible things that's happened is that a lot of sensible people have left these big organizations, so they've had a massive brain drain.

[00:30:57] Tanya: And what's happened is that they have lost their best people. [00:31:00] They've lost their critical thinkers who tried to tell them something's wrong with this stuff, and they got shouted down or told to be quiet, or they saw someone else get shouted down or told to be quiet and they thought, I'm just not gonna pick that fight.

[00:31:14] Tanya: I'm just gonna leave that [00:31:15] for someone else, or I'm gonna leave it for another day. Um, and then they just leave, you know, kind of when they can. They either retire early or they take a job with a, you know, with a friend who they know who they don't have to do all the work stuff with. So you've lost some really good people, and what you're left [00:31:30] with is all the nodding dogs who just go along with stuff because everyone else is going along with it.

[00:31:35] Tanya: Now, those are the worst people in your organization. So you've, you've lost the best people and you've kept the worst people. And I think what I'm seeing now in the UK is, [00:31:45] um- is really a race against the clock to see whether, whether you can save your organization. If you've got into a big mess with this stuff, have, ca- have you got enough good people left to be able to turn this thing around before the whole [00:32:00] organization collapses?

[00:32:01] Tanya: I really do think it's that serious, because if you've shut down conversation around these sorts of issues, you've probably shut it down elsewhere in the organization, and everybody, as a result, all your good people just care a bit less about the company. [00:32:15] Or, I mean, it's not even just, just in the private sector, the organization.

[00:32:17] Tanya: So if everyone just cares a bit less about their job, they're like, "Oh, you know, I used to like working here. I, you know, I, I would've picked that battle 10 years ago, but I can't be bothered now 'cause that manager's so awful and no one's gonna thank me, so I'll just leave it." [00:32:30] Everyone just cares a bit less about doing a good job, and from an employer perspective, that's really, really bad news.

[00:32:36] Stephanie: So it's been demoralizing. Yeah. And- And I

[00:32:39] Tanya: think- Yeah ... you quite think people who used to enjoy their job now don't, which is bad.

[00:32:44] Stephanie: [00:32:45] You question whether it's too late to turn it around. What do you think needs to happen in, let's say there's someone here with, uh, let's say, high up enough position in a company to make a meaningful difference.

[00:32:59] Stephanie: [00:33:00] What do employers need to do to turn things around, and what are going to be the main barriers to accomplishing that?

[00:33:08] Tanya: It depends on the organization, but within, I mean, and the law wherever you are in the world, and I know things are really bad in Australia and really bad in [00:33:15] Canada. Um, I don't know so much about the US, but the UK, we have reasonably good legal protections, in theory anyway.

[00:33:21] Tanya: It's not super fun going through that route. But I think what I'm hearing, the success that people are having, and they're telling me about it, is when they say, [00:33:30] um, when they don't actually say what they think of any of this stuff, but they say, "Look, you know, I think we need to reset around some of this stuff.

[00:33:38] Tanya: I think we, I think leadership needs to come back into the room. I think the grownups need to come back in the room, and we need to say, actually, [00:33:45] what are these, what are our staff network groups actually doing? Are they doing anything useful? Can we, kind of, w- can we take charge again and say, 'Actually, we're not bringing all this stuff to work anymore.

[00:33:56] Tanya: Um, we're actually here to do work,' and to just [00:34:00] basically lead better?" I think a lot of this stuff is not really about activism. I think the activists took over, they took control, but they were allowed to do that because the leaders lost control. Um, so you need the senior people. If there are enough senior people in your organization who [00:34:15] are sensible, and if you're one of them, that helps.

[00:34:18] Tanya: It, you know, if there's one or two people who are a problem, you probably wanna see if you can get rid of them. If there's an activist in your midst, if there's somebody with a trans-identified child who will not budge and cannot see this clearly, um, you might have to [00:34:30] try and find creative ways to get them out of the room or go around them.

[00:34:34] Tanya: Um, but I think you're gonna have to, you're gonna have to align your senior people, and you're gonna have to arrange how you're gonna do a sort of reset, and to prepare for a bit of a mutiny from some of [00:34:45] your young ones particularly. But actually, the job market's pretty bad at the moment, and I think so I think that will be helpful for employers 'cause they can say, "Well, this is what we're doing.

[00:34:56] Tanya: We're actually not doing all the, all the flags anymore. We're not doing Palestine. [00:35:00] We're not doing the trans stuff. We're not doing the BLM stuff. We're just, you know, we're resetting. We just wanna, you know, we wanna remove that. We wanna get back to focusing on what's really important, which is this company selling paper clips," or whatever they do.

[00:35:12] Tanya: And if you don't like it, then, you [00:35:15] know, the door's over there kind of thing. I mean, it's difficult to get rid of people in the UK Generally. But when you're making redundancies, which a lot of organizations are, it's quite a convenient moment to think, "Well, actually that person has been trouble for a while, has been stirring up [00:35:30] trouble, so let's put them on the list."

[00:35:31] Tanya: So I think what they're gonna do is they're gonna start clearing out the problem people, paying them off to get rid of them, and then they're left with the people who are actually there for the right reasons, who are the good performers. That feels like quite a good result to me really, [00:35:45] I think. Yeah.

[00:35:47] Stephanie: You've mentioned a couple times now the affirming parents of transgender identified youth, which are obviously not the ones that I talk with. People who come to me for help have serious concerns about the path [00:36:00] that their child is on. What insights can you share with us about the parents who are all in, who are true believers in this stuff, and what that has to do with these workplace dynamics?

[00:36:11] Tanya: Well, you just sort of hear rumors about- Oh, [00:36:15] well, you know, you know, of course, the chief executive of that company that's very clearly all, all in with this stuff still, you know, you know they've got a trans child, don't you? So there are a few companies that are pretty much known, I'm not gonna say who they are, but, you know, where it's sort of [00:36:30] rumored that there is somebody who's basically driving the organization off a cliff because they have clearly made a promise to their child that they're gonna push this agenda.

[00:36:39] Tanya: Sometimes it's the, it's the child who may well be grown up, 'cause these people will be probably in their 50s by now, possibly, [00:36:45] possibly older, 60s. Um, the child may be saying, may be even saying, you know, "I'm kind of gonna withhold my love or whatever unless you continue to push my agenda in your role. You know, you happen to be very [00:37:00] senior, Mom, Dad, at this organization.

[00:37:02] Tanya: You've got to do your stuff." So I've heard some of that as well. I mean, all of this is so dysfunctional. Like, and if you're, if, say, you're... I don't know this for sure, but one of our big gyms is, um, [00:37:15] Virgin Active, and they, they were in a muddle with all their changing rooms for a long time. They had, you know, they had men, you know, men walking into women's changing rooms, you know, um, locker rooms.

[00:37:25] Tanya: And, um, and I'm like, why wouldn't you sort that out? That's a huge risk, [00:37:30] right? At some point something nasty is gonna happen in one of those locker rooms, and if you were the, you know, the person that decided it was fine, then your head's on the block. It's very clearly not, it's very clearly not lawful in the UK to do that.

[00:37:43] Tanya: So that [00:37:45] person, if that person is part of the decision-making committee to decide, um, whether that policy should be changed or not, the rest of the people in that senior leadership team should be saying, "Should this person be in the room or not? Can this... Should this person have a vote?" [00:38:00] Because if they are so all in with this particular belief system that they can't see the legal risk here clearly, and the reputational risk, you don't wanna be the gym that has a, you know, a nasty, a nasty attack in one of your changing rooms.

[00:38:13] Tanya: Like, that's [00:38:15] terrible. Um, if they can't see it clearly, should they be there? Should they be in the room? So then now starting to talk about how you remove people from the conversation, or do you say, you know, do you make them say when they w- when they join the organization, "Okay, do you have any beliefs around this stuff?"

[00:38:29] Tanya: And [00:38:30] people have all sorts of religious beliefs, um, and that they, it would be part of their job at a senior level to not bring those beliefs to their role, right? So is this a good example? But they don't see it as a religion, do they? So that's the difference, and they will see it as them doing their [00:38:45] bit to, you know, advance trans rights, rights for young people, you know, healthcare and all this kind of stuff.

[00:38:50] Tanya: So I, I don't know. I think, I think that's gonna be a really difficult one. I don't... And there, there's a mix of opinions on that. But I, I'm happy that we're at least beginning to have those discussions because, I mean, they're long overdue. [00:39:00] Um, but I think that's, that's a sign of kind of moving forward really.

[00:39:03] Tanya: But- I still just see an awful lot of people's personal stuff, to be honest. And I wanted to ask you actually, if you don't mind, um, like how much of what I've described [00:39:15] in terms of people bringing their own stuff in, particularly this kind of, this bullied, I was bullied at school, I'm a victim, I'm a victim thing.

[00:39:23] Tanya: Do you think that's, do you think that's an excuse that they're bringing in? Do you think these are the sort of people who will never take responsibility for [00:39:30] anything? Um, I'm not talking about the, the parents, the s- senior parents, probably more, more the kind of junior or mid-level people. Are they just the sort of people who want to have someone else to blame for stuff?

[00:39:41] Tanya: And is it their own kind of... Do you... [00:39:45] Like, are they just using that as an excuse 'cause they're actually quite controlling people? I don't know. What do you think's going on?

[00:39:51] Stephanie: Well, I don't know precisely who we're talking about, right? And I can't get inside their head, but what I can say is that [00:40:00] if you were significantly bullied Then if you were smart about it, you would learn from that how to not put yourself in that position again because the [00:40:15] consequences of having been bullied were very real for you.

[00:40:18] Stephanie: So I was bullied, and I don't mind saying this because I know the position I'm in as a self-employed person who's really gone out on my own path, right? I've already faced threats to my career [00:40:30] and livelihood and license. So these things can't hurt me in the same way that they could hurt me if I was in a workplace dynamic with other people.

[00:40:40] Stephanie: As someone who was severely bullied myself, like feared for my life [00:40:45] bullied, um, I developed enough street smarts from that to not, um, share that information with people who could use it against me. Again, I share it here because I've gotten to a place in my life and career where you can't hurt me [00:41:00] Right?

[00:41:01] Stephanie: Like, you wanna come after my license? Activists have already tried that. So, uh, people who are in a different position, um, where they do need their coworkers, uh, to treat them with [00:41:15] respect, and they don't wanna be bullied again, if they really knew what it was like to have been bullied, they wouldn't admit that weakness.

[00:41:23] Stephanie: Let me give an example of what I mean. I started watching Lord of the Flies last night, and I didn't get very far. Um, I [00:41:30] read the book in, like, ninth grade or something, and there's a modern remake on, uh, Netflix. And I only got about 10 or 15 minutes in 'cause it was dark and gruesome. But, you know, one of the first things that happens in Lord of the [00:41:45] Flies is a little boy, whose name we don't know, is asked by another little boy, Ralph, he's, he's asked, "What should I call you?"

[00:41:54] Stephanie: Right? So Ralph asks the, the fat kid, "What should I call you?" And the fat [00:42:00] kid says, "I don't care what you call me, as long as you don't call me what I was called before." Ralph asks, "What was that?" He says, "Piggy. They called me Piggy." So what Piggy just did is he handed [00:42:15] Ralph the keys. He's like, "Here's how you can hurt me."

[00:42:18] Stephanie: If Piggy was smart, if he had learned anything from being bullied, he would not give anyone that power to use over him. He would say, "You can call me Joseph," [00:42:30] or whatever his name is, right? Or he could make up a nickname that's even stronger and say, "You can call me this. Call me King Joseph." You know? But Piggy did the stupidest thing, and that is what you do as a victim of bullying who has not [00:42:45] learned to take care of yourself, who has not learned street smarts, which is, "I was really hurt before when people called me this name.

[00:42:51] Stephanie: Here's the name you can use to hurt me." So of course, where the story goes, yes, that name's gonna be used against him, and ironically, it might never [00:43:00] have been used against him if he hadn't handed people the keys. So that's, that's what I think of when I think of this. I think, "Oh, you were bullied? Really?

[00:43:07] Stephanie: Were you bullied like I was, where I feared for my life?" Because what that taught me is not to be stupid enough to hand people the [00:43:15] keys to how you can hurt me. And so I'm suspicious, right? Anyone who's going to claim a victim identity in that sort of setting, I'm, I'm suspicious. Did you really? Or have you learned that the claims you're making are [00:43:30] actually social currency in this environment?

[00:43:33] Stephanie: They let you be the bully, not the bullied.

[00:43:36] Tanya: Hmm. Ew.

[00:43:42] Tanya: Oh, this is such a toxic soup of a [00:43:45] mess. No wonder the employers wanna ditch it all now. Yeah, yeah. I, yeah, something doesn't seem right to me, all right. And, and, and also lots of people who are, you know, are bullied would never, ever behave like this because it just wouldn't, it doesn't occur to them. They don't want, they don't want to live in the past.

[00:43:59] Tanya: [00:44:00] They want to move on. They don't want to, you know, just kind of s- s- sort of stay in that place. I think it's probably more likely with the older gay men I mentioned, that they, they want to talk about their shame, I think. I don't know what they're trying to get it out or [00:44:15] something. I don't know what that's about.

[00:44:16] Tanya: But they, I, I kind of believe them, but I don't think it's bullying. I don't know what it is.

[00:44:21] Stephanie: In order to share that kind of stuff, you have to, at minimum, have trust that you're in a place where no one will use it to [00:44:30] hurt you. And frankly, I don't often see that trust being earned, so there must be something else to it.

[00:44:36] Stephanie: There must be... It goes beyond, "I trust these people not to use this to hurt me again like I've been hurt before." It goes beyond [00:44:45] that to, if I say this, I get a get out of jail free card. I get a license to dominate other people. Uh, I get more weight added to my opinion. I get something out of it, otherwise why would I [00:45:00] be doing it?

[00:45:00] Tanya: Yeah. It's, it's, it's noticeably difficult for kind of s- straight women to take on these gay men in the workplace and say, "Well, actually, what about, what about women, or what about people that aren't into this stuff?" Because, because those men will always turn around and [00:45:15] say, "Well, listen, love, you know, I, you know, I don't think you know what it's like to be the only gay boy in the, you know, in the class."

[00:45:20] Tanya: And it's like you don't wanna be the straight woman bringing this stuff up because it's a kind of oppression points thing. So I think that's what they get from it, and I think they use that against... I mean, th- these are not, these are, [00:45:30] like, not nice gay guys. These are, like, the bad ones, the ones that really don't like women.

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[00:46:14] Tanya: So [00:46:15] I think there's a couple of things that people are really interested in that keep coming up, which is one is the role of women, um, and how, how there are so many women who are still kind of pushing this, this agenda, and whether it's just totally, you know, the problem is that we've feminized the [00:46:30] workforce, particularly in, in certain sectors like teaching.

[00:46:33] Tanya: So, and I, and I... The conclusion I'm coming to with that one is that I think this strange time that we're in brings out the best in some women and the worst in other women, and the best in some men and the worst in other men. I don't think [00:46:45] it's as clear-cut as that. So I tend to stick up for women, um, because I think, I think a lot of women have been holding their hands up and saying, "Wait a minute.

[00:46:54] Tanya: There's a problem here. There's a problem here." And the men in senior roles have ignored them and dismissed them. So I [00:47:00] think that there's, there's some... there's pl- plenty of blame to go around, as I like to say. So I think, um, you know, although women are, you know, have been part of pushing, pushing lots of this stuff as well.

[00:47:09] Tanya: And, you know, and there, you know, there are some men who've been very helpful and some men who've been extremely unhelpful, as I say. [00:47:15] So that's been something I'm kind of... I haven't quite decided where I've landed on that one yet, but I don't buy into this idea that women are to blame for everything and, you know, woke workplaces are created by women 'cause I think...

[00:47:26] Tanya: And, and certain industries as well, I c- I... W- the [00:47:30] question that keeps coming up for me, depending on which industry you're looking at, is what, what type of work does this... what, what sort of person is attracted to this kind of work in this kind of industry? Um, and if everybody is like [00:47:45] that, what problems do you get in that industry?

[00:47:47] Tanya: So presumably it's the same in psychotherapy, right? The sort of people who want to be, to be a psychotherapist might have a tendency to be a certain type of person, and you see the same thing within HR, you see the same thing within journalism, you see the same thing in [00:48:00] advertising, you see the same thing in health, you know.

[00:48:03] Tanya: So you get this sort of really, um, this sort of really dark... If they'd been doing actual diversity, they would have better, a better sort of mix of people, um, than they do. [00:48:15] But particularly in do- female-dominated, um, industries or sectors, like I would say the charity sector is very female, teaching is very female.

[00:48:23] Tanya: And, you know, some of these podcast bros that I'm sure you, you and I both know would say, "Oh, it's women have taken over," la, [00:48:30] la, la. It's like, well, actually, the men have left those industries 'cause they're not very well-paid anymore. There's no prestige anymore, and they've left the women to get on with it.

[00:48:37] Tanya: So, you know, that's, that's kind of what happens when you don't have that diversity of thought that you would get from having a diversity actually [00:48:45] of sex. You don't have that anymore. So I'm... Uh, that's one of the things I want to push back on and I, you know, I'd like to interview somebody who thinks it's all women's fault 'cause I'd like to say it's, there's plenty of blame to go around for men as well.

[00:48:55] Tanya: Um- One of the other things I'm looking at, I don't know if you saw, [00:49:00] there was a guy who, um, is a lecturer at, um, Oxford University who, uh, wears these giant plastic breasts. I am going somewhere with this. And he, like, they're [00:49:15] huge, and he's got this beard. He's, he's a they/them, but I don't think he's actually trying to convince us he's female.

[00:49:20] Tanya: He's got this giant beard, and it kind of like tickles his fake cleavage. He's a lecturer at Oxford University, right? He wears his lipstick. He's, uh, has not got a hair on his head [00:49:30] And he just basically, he is going around, he's a lecturer and, and he's also a tutor. So some of his students will be as young as 18, and there will be girls, they might be in a very small group, might even be one-on-one.

[00:49:42] Tanya: And [00:49:45] this person is just being allowed to work there dressed like that. And I know that we are saying, you know, within the UK the law basically says that trans-identifying people, you know, there's not that much employers can do. But there's a [00:50:00] point at which you're like, that is really... Like, even that person being there might be sexual harassment in itself, not e- even if he's not doing anything, and there's no suggestion that he is doing anything.

[00:50:11] Tanya: But Oxford allowing him to be there dressed like that with these [00:50:15] very low-cut tops. I mean, this is huge, like squidgy prosthetic breasts, and he's parading around like that. And I'm, I'm interested in... I mean, I, I mean, I saw this guy on LinkedIn. I'm interested in lots of questions around that. Fi- first of all, why on earth is there [00:50:30] someone that I know personally commenting below his post saying, "Oh, hi there, Matt.

[00:50:35] Tanya: You know, you look really well. You know, it's nice to see you. You know, it was great to catch up with you at that last event." I'm thinking, how do I know someone who can't see what is so [00:50:45] clearly, like, a sexualized way of presenting in the workplace and have any critical thought going on? How is it that we're not seeing that?

[00:50:53] Tanya: But also, why I'm interested in what's going on within Oxford has, I'm sure [00:51:00] somebody will have complained about this person at some point. But clearly Oxford don't feel confident they can get rid of this person, b- presumably because they've been told by some lawyers that he's protected under this, um, you know...

[00:51:11] Tanya: We, we have the Equality Act, which has, uh, g- gender [00:51:15] reassignment as a protected characteristic, and they would say, "Well, that's, he's probably allowed to do that 'cause bringing his authentic self to work or whatever." And there's no consideration given to how the women might feel, for example, or the strange vibe that this person creates just from [00:51:30] being there in the room.

[00:51:31] Tanya: So I think, I think the employers have got quite a long way to go on those conversations. I actually do think they're possible, but it's still, with cases like that, it's astonishing to me that there is anybody still in any sort [00:51:45] of senior role who can't, isn't looking at that going, "Yeah, we've clearly gone wrong here."

[00:51:50] Tanya: That can't... We, the, the law can't say that we have to allow him to dress like that when he's teaching young women. Like, that is not, it's not professional. [00:52:00] It's not appropriate. You wouldn't let women wear clothes like that if, even if that, those breasts were real. I mean, it's just... So that, at that point, I just think, in some way, I think those people are quite useful though, because I think they do switch on [00:52:15] the sort of normies' brains and think, "Well, is that what trans is?

[00:52:19] Tanya: I don't really understand this trans thing. Like, is this... What's the difference between trans and someone just being a cross-dresser?" Which is a good question, isn't it? So you [00:52:30] kind of... These sorts of people are make- In the w- the workplace is interesting because you get a mix of people who you wouldn't normally hang out with, different backgrounds usually.

[00:52:37] Tanya: You know, some industries are more samey than others. But you're gonna encounter people, and I guess if you're gonna talk about peaking, you [00:52:45] know, a lot of people see this stuff at work first and think this is a bit weird, which they wouldn't have seen in their own s- social circle necessarily. Some people see it, stuff at their children's schools.

[00:52:55] Tanya: But the workplace is quite interesting I think, 'cause you have all these different people all colliding with each [00:53:00] other, all these different beliefs, all these different backgrounds. And I think... And the HR people are not ready for it at all 'cause they have, they've got the law wrong and they've got their culture all wrong.

[00:53:09] Tanya: But it's an interesting kind of melting pot really, and that's why I think you're gonna see the workplace [00:53:15] inc- you know, continue to be the kind of explosive place to be, right? And that, and that's where so many of these cases have ended up coming from, is the workplace. Think things like the nurses that have been, you know, taken, um, hospitals to court for making them change with, um, male colleagues and [00:53:30] things like that.

[00:53:30] Tanya: It's really interesting, um, to see that collision of everybody in the workplace who's gonna talk. You know, you just can't please everybody, and you can't please everybody if, if one group has such a dom- dominant, um, belief system that requires everyone else to [00:53:45] pretend to go along with it even if they don't believe in it.

[00:53:46] Tanya: That's not gonna work well. It doesn't matter what the law is actually, whatever country you're in. I'm looking at Canada and Australia and I'm thinking, "It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if that's the law. It's still never going to work for employers [00:54:00] because you're gonna lose your best people." People, good people are gonna stop going into that industry or that organization because they can see what a mess it is.

[00:54:08] Tanya: So I don't think it works at all. So I think it will sort of probably kind of implode on itself, [00:54:15] um, in a way, which is quite interesting to watch.

[00:54:17] Stephanie: I think part of the problem is that there's been so much permissiveness toward ideologues whose goalposts are actually going to [00:54:30] constantly shift, that there's an insatiability to the ideology.

[00:54:34] Stephanie: And it hit me earlier when you were talking about the affirming parents, the true believers, or the ones who have essentially brainwashed themselves to convince themselves to [00:54:45] keep that relationship with their kid that feels endangered. And now that they've gone along, you know, these parents have indulged it much more than my clients have.

[00:54:52] Stephanie: They're using the name, they're using the pronouns, they're paving the way for their kid, correcting other people when they use the so-called wrong [00:55:00] pronouns. They're helping their kids schedule and pay for these medical appointments, right? Those parents, the ones I don't see in my practice, um, you gave the example of some of them being under pressure from their kids to, uh, essentially [00:55:15] carpet the planet for them, right?

[00:55:16] Stephanie: You know, that saying that it's easier to put on a pair of shoes than to carpet the whole world so that you have a soft surface under your feet, right? So, you know, the kids who are getting what they think they want, right, the [00:55:30] kids who are receiving from their parents what my clients' kids only dream of receiving from their parents, the things they think they want, the name, the pronoun, the money and support for surgery and drugs, right?

[00:55:44] Stephanie: Even the [00:55:45] ones who are getting all that- The ante keeps upping. The goalposts keep shifting. Well now if you wanna keep a relationship with me, you have to not only provide for me, but you have to make the world a so-called safer [00:56:00] place for so-called trans people, right? Which of course I'm saying so-called, I'm putting air quotes around these things because I don't think that this is actually a safer world for so-called trans people.

[00:56:10] Stephanie: I think it's a dangerous world because they're being convinced to, [00:56:15] uh, adopt medical procedures that increase all-cause mortality. So obviously it's not the safer route, but the narrative around safety for these people, um, is, is part of the problem and, and I think this is one of [00:56:30] the really insidious aspects that's crept into the workplace that I, I remember when I was still working in, in group psychotherapy practice.

[00:56:39] Stephanie: Um, and it's this most of the time unspoken assumption [00:56:45] that the world will bow down for you, right? That, that the red carpet will be rolled out, that, um, all of society will bend around you. And the conversation nobody's having with the people who are pursuing these [00:57:00] life-shortening, uh, drugs and surgeries is what if it doesn't go that way?

[00:57:06] Stephanie: What if you can't reach that critical mass you desire of people in society who are willing [00:57:15] to reconstruct everything to accommodate you Right? If things don't go your way politically and culturally, do you still wanna do this to yourself? 'Cause I think with other [00:57:30] challenging and questionable decisions that other young people have made, uh, it's, it's more at your own risk, and live with the consequences.

[00:57:41] Stephanie: And don't expect that everyone's going to agree [00:57:45] with you. In fact, there's no universal ticket for making sure everyone likes you, right? And that's, that's how I grew up. I presume that's how you grew up. I presume that's how most people have grown up. And those hardships that we faced and the risks that we took where we were [00:58:00] going out a limb- on a limb potentially by ourselves, they strengthened our character, they taught us our limits, and they ultimately showed us how to be a part of society and be ourselves at the same time, which is the task of young adulthood.

[00:58:12] Stephanie: Um, so I, I [00:58:15] feel for the people with the shifting goalposts 'cause I'm over here on this end of things where parents who come to me for help have been pressured by their kids, maybe their kid's therapist, maybe their kid's pediatrician, uh, to just make this one little compromise, right? "Oh, just [00:58:30] call her him," right?

[00:58:31] Stephanie: "It's no big deal. It'll make him happy," right? That's the narrative. But we can see what's downstream of that, is that it, there, there's an insatiability built into the nature of the beast.

[00:58:42] Tanya: I think, yeah, I think the employers are finding something [00:58:45] similar. They thought, "Oh, this pronoun thing, I don't really get it, but I'll just, we'll just do it.

[00:58:48] Tanya: It's no big deal." And then you see how you end up kind of handing over control. It, it, you know, thinking about young people, which is, was originally my, my background, and I-- So I used to work for women's mag- magazines as well. So I used to [00:59:00] write for Glamour and Cosmo and those sorts of magazines as well, so I'm interested in young, young women as a kind of group in general.

[00:59:05] Tanya: It's funny that sort of come back to, come back to that again. But, you know, the employers are really noticing that the young people that they're hiring are very intolerant, um, [00:59:15] are quite entitled, especially if they're university graduates. The girls are s- you know, particularly kind of authoritarian, and they don't have that resilience, as you say.

[00:59:22] Tanya: So it's kind of coming in even... I mean, they're having problems with young people anyway, and I, and I, I've been saying to them, "Well- [00:59:30] Part of that is because of the messaging that you're sending out to them, even when you go onto, you know, college campuses to present your brand to them at the careers fair, right?

[00:59:40] Tanya: Your whole ... All your messaging is basically bring your whole self to work, just in [00:59:45] photographs and, you know, other sort of slogans. It's like if you're sending that message to them and then you ask them, you indulge them the entire way through, not just the applica- not just the attraction kind of stage, but also through the selection stage and [01:00:00] making sure they're comfortable, comfortable, comfortable with everything and, like, you know, you know, you know, can we get you anything more to help you to feel more comfortable?

[01:00:06] Tanya: You can't really be surprised if when you give them the job and they start the role, they're kind of a pain in the ass because you have basically, that's exactly who you advertised for [01:00:15] and that's exactly who you got, and you send the message that you're going to continue to pander to them, and then they start client work or they start working with more senior people, and then the recruiters start to get this feedback of like, "Who are these awful new graduates you're, you're sending us?

[01:00:28] Tanya: They can't handle anything, and they're a [01:00:30] pain to work with, and no one likes working with them."

[01:00:32] Stephanie: You talk about the never-ending desire for comfort. I have a lesson in my course on the relationship between comfort and challenge, and the examples that I use are, you know, what's the best shower you've ever had in [01:00:45] your life?

[01:00:45] Stephanie: It's the one after that four-day camping trip where you didn't have fresh water, right? What's the best meal you've ever had? It's the one after 10 hours of working straight physical labor with nothing to eat. That was the best meal you ever had. Um, you know, [01:01:00] there is a paradoxical relationship between comfort and challenge.

[01:01:03] Stephanie: The more challenge you have, the more you can actually truly appreciate comfort and receive it and digest it, right? Whereas if you're constantly seeking, chasing [01:01:15] comfort, comfort, comfort, um, your world shrinks. That's, that's how people develop agoraphobia, right? Avoiding things that trigger discomfort, uh, not recognizing their internal locus of control, the part of you that has a say in [01:01:30] how you perceive your challenges.

[01:01:32] Stephanie: Um, and this, this is the problem that I, I see with so many young people, right? And it's part of the culture that they're in, that I should always be seeking comfort. I should always be seeking protection and avoidance from [01:01:45] things that challenge me in any way, which really reveals a lack of emotional intelligence because e- emotional intelligence I partly define as the ability to learn from our emotional experiences, to first recognize and identify our emotions, but then [01:02:00] also understand what are our emotions telling us, because they could be telling us very different things, right?

[01:02:04] Stephanie: Fear as an emotion, uh, or sensation or whatever you wanna call it, in a certain situation is telling us, "Get away from this danger Right? In [01:02:15] another situation, our fear is telling us, "You need to get stronger and face this." And so emotional intelligence is the ability to tell the difference between those two things.

[01:02:22] Stephanie: And I think this generation has so much access to numbing and distracting, uh, away from even [01:02:30] that baseline level of emotional awareness, what to speak of being able to decode the emotions that you're aware of, that they're never really getting to that point. So all emotions lead to the same route of avoidance, numbing, distraction, comfort seeking.

[01:02:42] Stephanie: And therefore, there is this fragility. And [01:02:45] they're right. There is nothing... Like, nothing's ever gonna be comfortable enough for them, right? If you don't go to the extreme of discomfort every now and then, sort of like lifting weights, you know, if you don't occasionally lift 50 [01:03:00] pounds, then 20 pounds is always gonna feel heavy, right?

[01:03:03] Stephanie: You, you have to build that muscle in order for things to feel lighter. Similarly, you have to build the mental muscle of challenge and discomfort in order to be able to receive any comfort at [01:03:15] all. And if you don't do that, everything's gonna be uncomfortable. And that's gonna be a subjectively real experience for you, but that doesn't mean that it's the objective truth or should be how a, a culture gets defined.

[01:03:27] Tanya: Yeah. You're making me think of the, the... A good example in, [01:03:30] in the workplace is when they say things like, um, you know, for people with, um, high anxiety, which a lot of these kind of lived experience trainers and things have, and they're constantly posting about them on LinkedIn. They'll say, you know, "You should never, ever say to somebody w- with anxiety, you know, [01:03:45] um, 'Are you free about 4:00, uh, for...

[01:03:47] Tanya: I need to have a quick word with you.'" Um, and you know, if, if you say that to somebody at 11:00 AM, they're gonna worry about it for the next five hours. I mean, like, you know, we all know what that's like, 'cause you think, "My boss wants a quick word with me [01:04:00] in five hours time. I don't know what that's about."

[01:04:02] Tanya: Like, you've got five pretty uncomfortable hours to sweat through, right? And it might be nothing or it might be something important. But you know, what you and I would've learnt to do is, "I have no idea what that's about. Could be nothing. Could be something [01:04:15] big. Nothing I can do for the next five hours. I might as well get on with some work and, and distract myself probably."

[01:04:20] Tanya: I don't... wouldn't say that was numbing myself, but you need to somehow get through those next five hours. But just to say, "You should never do that because I have anxiety," doesn't help you to be more robust. And you get to the [01:04:30] meeting, and it's probably nothing, and you think, "Oh, God. I've... You know, I've gotten in a big stress about that for no reason."

[01:04:34] Tanya: But I think that's, that's the sort of thing where they are learning they can say, "Well, actually you can't do that to me because I have anxiety," um, which doesn't, isn't building that, that resilience. I mean, I, I worry [01:04:45] about, you know, young people and not having the skills for the workplace because- They're not great.

[01:04:52] Tanya: They're-- Those ones are not a great advert for the ones, you know, the ones who are robust are great, but the ones who are not, sometimes that kind of attitude can [01:05:00] be kind of contagious within a workplace, and I think some of the employers are saying, "Ugh, we don't want all of... We don't want the bad ones dragging down the good ones with all of this constant need for cotton wool around them all the time.

[01:05:11] Tanya: That's not what, that's not what we're going for here." So I, I think the [01:05:15] employers are gonna start getting quite tough about getting rid of people. But I don't-- But I do worry about where those young people end up. I mean, I've thought for a long time that, you know, particularly with the, the trans stuff, if you're, you're teaching young people to be so demanding about what they want and need from, from any employment situation, that [01:05:30] they're going into every interview saying, "Can I use these pronouns?"

[01:05:34] Tanya: And then when they're asked at the end of the interview, "Do you have any questions for us?" You should ask something about the organization or where might I be in five years' time, you know, if I get this job or whatever. You don't say, "What are you doing for, [01:05:45] you know, LGBT rights?" That's not a good question to ask at the end of the interview.

[01:05:50] Tanya: And, and if they were looking for a reason not to hire you for some other, you know, 'cause they were getting that vibe from you anyway, they'd just be like, "That was a bad, that was a bad question." And I didn't really [01:06:00] get the feeling that person was gonna be a team player. And so they will-- It's difficult to get rid of people once they've started work in the UK.

[01:06:07] Tanya: Um, employees have a lot of rights here. So what employers are doing is not hiring them in the first place, and then getting, getting rid of them in, um, [01:06:15] redundancies. Or finding if they do wanna get rid of them, they will find another reason to get rid of them that's, that's, um, you know, around performance.

[01:06:21] Tanya: But still, that's more difficult than not hiring them in the first place. And I have to say, I'm noticing on LinkedIn, you can have a sort of a, a thing around your profile [01:06:30] picture that says open to work, and a lot of these people that I've been following for some time, the activists, have got open to work written on their thing.

[01:06:37] Tanya: And I'm thinking, I think they were a casualty of redundancies, and I think they will probably struggle to find something new [01:06:45] unless they shift their attitude. But I don't think they will 'cause I think they're doubling down. So that doesn't end well, I'm afraid.

[01:06:52] Stephanie: You described the peak of this as 2018 to '24, and you had a recent episode of your [01:07:00] podcast where you discussed with a guest of yours the sense that there's a vibe shift.

[01:07:05] Stephanie: Where do you think things are at in the culture right now?

[01:07:08] Tanya: I think customers are really over all the woke stuff. I think, and I think a lot of employees are too. [01:07:15] But I think what we're seeing is a sort of patchwork where depends on the industry, depends on the sector. So there are some places that I think are forging ahead, which I think, I think is the private sector.

[01:07:25] Tanya: So companies that care about profit and productivity. For example, you can see, you can see from [01:07:30] Pride, I mean, you could see, you know, it started on a, a Monday, um, whatever, first, 1st of June I think was a Monday. I, um... Anyway, that first Monday, there was nothing on LinkedIn, hardly anything, and I think they've dumped it.

[01:07:41] Tanya: Um, last year they would do-- I mean, they do a little bit, but the [01:07:45] trans flag has gone, and the progress flag has gone. The ones that are still doing it have gone back to the old-fashioned pride flag with just the colors, no chevron, but just those nice, which is actually a more attractive flag in the first place.

[01:07:56] Tanya: So you can see them sort of winding back, particularly, I mean, in the [01:08:00] UK, you know, I think we're a bit more like in the States where we are talking about this stuff much more openly now. Um, and so I think they've realized that this stuff is very divisive. I think they can present it as saying, "Actually, we're not doing all this stuff anymore.

[01:08:12] Tanya: We think it's a bit performative. You know, we're not [01:08:15] sure it was really doing anything in the first place." I think it's starting to feel a bit tacky as well. I think it just doesn't feel fresh anymore. So I think-- And then the race stuff is really bad over here. I mean, I mean, there's been a, a few cases recently in the UK where it looks like, [01:08:30] um, some of that, particularly around race, some of the ideas about equity versus equality have ended in bad outcomes in terms of policing, policing situations, um, where police have assumed that the white guy was the bad guy, for example [01:08:45] And that's led to bad results.

[01:08:46] Tanya: You've seen it in, in health as well, where there was a trans-identified woman who was put in a male psych ward, um, and I think she, she was raped with- within an hour. So you're seeing the kind of downstream effects of some [01:09:00] of that stuff. So, but I think, so the, the wonderful thing about the private sector, and I have renewed love of the private sector with all the ruthless capitalism is, like, so refreshing compared with the sort of [01:09:15] emotional blackmail of the charity sector, which is so coercive and controlling of its, you know, all of those women particularly, but all of this, you know, be kind, be kind.

[01:09:25] Tanya: Whereas in the private sector, once they've decided they're binning something because they're over it, they [01:09:30] were never really into it in the first place, most of the people. The, the people from the business side, as in the people that make the money for the organization probably thought a whole load of this stuff was all nonsense anyway, and they were like, "Fine, we'll do it while it's popular.

[01:09:40] Tanya: We'll do it while it's fashionable." But, but the minute it's not, they kind of dump it, [01:09:45] and they're l- they're... In the private sector, you've probably got a better mix of people as well. You've got a better social mix, you've got a better political mix, and, and it's much more meritocratic as well. So Just as long as you're good at your job and you make money for the organization and clients like you or whatever, [01:10:00] you're kind-- you're gonna get on.

[01:10:01] Tanya: So it's not based so much around being kind. Like something in, like book publishing, for example, is, is a sort-- the currency is a sort of pseudo-intellectual, very middle class, middle class in the UK sense, as in, I don't [01:10:15] know what you would call that, but you know, sort of n-nice families, nice people, n-you, you know, the sort of dinner party set.

[01:10:21] Tanya: So I think you-- I think it's gonna stay in some sect- some... basically, some organizations are dumping it quicker, and anywhere where the profit [01:10:30] driver is king, that will-- they will dump it first, and you're already seeing that. So, and it sort of falls out of fashion. It doesn't make money. It actually costs money.

[01:10:38] Tanya: It creates risk. It makes you lose your best people. Your customers hate it. Your employees hate [01:10:45] it. Everyone's having arguments about stuff. You've got flags everywhere. Like, what are you doing? Like, this is, you know, you're risking the reputation of your organization. Some of these trainers, you know, you're like, "That just looks like a cross-dresser to me.

[01:10:57] Tanya: Why are we still getting someone in to do training who's [01:11:00] pushing, you know, puberty blockers for children?" Which most people in the UK now think these are like unsafe drugs for children, which we're not doing anymore. The NHS has dumped it. That's good enough for me, and single sex spaces are important.

[01:11:11] Tanya: Let's go with the law. So you know, th-those sorts of changes [01:11:15] like, like the Cass Review, like the Supreme Court, um, ruling, have meant that if you're a sensible person who's still got your brain switched on, you can make your case much more clearly saying, "I don't think we wanna be anywhere near this stuff.

[01:11:26] Tanya: It's just too divisive. Let's just move in a different direction." You don't have [01:11:30] to say, "I think this is terrible. It goes against my beliefs." A-actually, if you're gonna be smart, you don't put-- you don't tell anybody what your beliefs are. I mean, I, I'm about to complain about the progress bunting in the, um, the, the freelance office I use, but I'm not gonna [01:11:45] say what I think of it.

[01:11:46] Tanya: I'm just gonna say, "You do know that that progress flag is, is a political symbol, don't you? And not everyone's gonna be into it. Are you aware that certain religions are not big on that stuff either? Have you really thought this through? How long is it gonna be up for, and would you consider [01:12:00] not putting it up next year?"

[01:12:01] Tanya: And I can do that. I mean, I'm a customer there, not, not an employee, so I'm in a stronger position. But I, but I feel like in the UK you can now do that and say, you know, "That's a political symbol." You wouldn't put a Palestine flag up probably. No, you [01:12:15] wouldn't in this thing. Um, you know, you wouldn't put, you know, any sort of political symbols up.

[01:12:19] Tanya: Why are you putting that up? Um- There's a bit more air in the room, I think. So I, but I do think, I think the charity sector's in big trouble in the UK because it's all... And you're s- you know, they are... [01:12:30] Some of those charities are refusing to do what they need to do in terms of the law and single-sex spaces and services.

[01:12:35] Tanya: You know, we've got Girlguiding, you know, which is a charity for young girls to give them a s- you know, a space that's just for girls, and they are ref- they were, they just dug their heels in. Well, that we, they want [01:12:45] trans girls should be there too. And you're like, "Well, if you've got trans girls in the wrong category there, then that's kind of on you," but they won't drop it.

[01:12:52] Tanya: Um, and the public sector as well, they're hanging onto it. It's more baked in in, in the civil service. It's baked in and teaching is very diffi- gonna [01:13:00] difficult to get rid of it. So I think, but I think the, I think the culture, I think comedy, I, I mean, I've been saying for a long time, if I wanted to get rid of all this stuff, move and put sort of speed everything up, I would put all my money on comedy and giving those comics space to make jokes [01:13:15] about this stuff, 'cause it's really funny.

[01:13:16] Tanya: It's really funny how awful it is that we're screaming at each other and trying to, and calling it inclusion, you know? I mean, I'm sure most people have seen the, you know, Ricky Gervais' clips of him doing his stuff, and it's like, this is such [01:13:30] comedy. I mean, I'm not a comedian, but this is comedy gold, this stuff.

[01:13:32] Tanya: It is so funny that people are continuing to say somebody with giant rubber boobs is just expressing his true self. What are you talking about? I mean, it just kinda gets to that point where people, and when w- and when there's nobody, like, woke [01:13:45] in the room, people are making jokes about this stuff. It's already happening.

[01:13:48] Tanya: So I think that kind of breakthrough of just people feeling like, "Oh, I can relax," you know? It's so nice to go to a party where you can hang out with them and go, "God, you're not into all that stuff, are you?" And they go, "God, no, I thought it was awful," and you know. And then you're like, "Oh, this suddenly feels like, you know, [01:14:00] 2005 again."

[01:14:00] Stephanie: Well,

[01:14:00] Tanya: so like, like- You can actually have a nice time at an evening with your friends or like a work thing. You just think, "Oh, I can actually relax." So I think people are really, really ready for that, and I think the employers are getting their confidence back actually and, [01:14:15] um, and saying, "We, this just doesn't belong in the workplace.

[01:14:17] Tanya: Let's get it out of the workplace." If you need... A- and if people are finding this stuff because they, people don't go to church anymore or whatever, do something outside the workplace. Church was outside the workplace, so keep this outside the workplace. If you want to go [01:14:30] on a pro-Palestine march on the weekend, fine, you can do that.

[01:14:33] Tanya: But don't bring those flags into this workplace. It's not appropriate. You know, you've got Jewish people that work here, and even if we didn't, it's not appropriate. Don't bring your trans stuff in here either. This is not appropriate. So I think the more they can move it out of the [01:14:45] workplace, and I'm hoping that the private sector Will model that so that it will start to make the other sectors look madder and madder, like just crazy.

[01:14:54] Tanya: Like, why are you still doing that? Like, that's embarrassing for you. You know, we dumped that a couple of years ago. [01:15:00] And you're still seeing some of the people that are hanging onto this stuff look very out of date this year. It just looks like they didn't get the memo. They did not, they did not... They missed the vibe shift.

[01:15:09] Tanya: You know, you can really see it. So I think, yeah- Yeah ... so I mean, I had a, I had a really good event on Tuesday, actually last week, [01:15:15] um, called, um, How Can Employers Depoliticize the Workplace?, which I think they're desperate to do now. So there's appetite for that, which is great. Um, you know, and, you know, I...

[01:15:24] Tanya: Other, other sessions I had where I did, um, is HR holding back British business? So [01:15:30] again, if you just go, go with the profit, um, kind of line, they really like that too. And so they can just sort of start to talk about is this bringing anything good or should we just move on? And that's all... And th- you're never gonna get an apology from them, I'm afraid.

[01:15:44] Tanya: But you're [01:15:45] gonna... I want to make it clear that they are moving. Well, they're not gonna shout about it, but I wanna make sure that we're chronicling that somewhere, and hopefully with my podcast as well, I will try and feed back some of what the employers are saying, 'cause I know there are so many employees out there who are dying to know what's going on.

[01:15:59] Tanya: So I think [01:16:00] it's really encouraging if you are in a terrible workplace where people are being awful, to know that there is some movement and those conversations are happening, and people are just kind of finding their grown-up voice again and going, "Actually, we can talk about this stuff." But you have to keep your own views out.

[01:16:12] Tanya: That's why I keep my own views out as well. You can [01:16:15] probably tell what they are from the way that I've spoken. But I don't actually say what my own beliefs are, and I don't think anybody should be. I think we need to get back into the habit of being professional. Bring your professional self to work, not your whole self.

[01:16:28] Tanya: Doesn't that sound nice? I think it sounds [01:16:30] great.

[01:16:31] Stephanie: The whole idea that you need to be your whole true, authentic self, whatever that even i- is, um, uh, that you need to bring it everywhere all the time, I think is terrible for mental health. Because, uh, in [01:16:45] order to manage anxiety, we need to be able to compartmentalize.

[01:16:51] Stephanie: You know, you show up to work or school, and you could've just had something rough happen at home. It's nice to put on your [01:17:00] blinders. It's nice to feel like when I'm here, I'm focused on these tasks and these subjects, and I can kinda leave that other part of my brain behind, leave it to rest. Let those emotions process in the background while I'm doing math.

[01:17:12] Stephanie: You're making a spreadsheet or [01:17:15] writing a chapter, whatever it might be, right? Like, compartmentalizing is part of how we keep ourselves from falling apart

[01:17:23] Tanya: Yeah.

[01:17:23] Stephanie: So the idea that, you know, that self-expression has to... I mean, it's also very tone deaf and kind of [01:17:30] autistic, to be honest. The idea that, like, you should be yourself everywhere because we're contextual, right?

[01:17:36] Stephanie: Like, my whole self does not fit in any one environment. I could be as real as I wanna be with you, Tanya, [01:17:45] and you're not gonna get to know all of me. You know? I- my husband is probably the person who's gonna know me the best by the end of this life. He, he already does. He's, he's in the lead, you know? But, like, we ultimately, we are constellations or multifaceted [01:18:00] gems.

[01:18:00] Stephanie: I actually have this beautiful piece of garnet that someone gave me, and I don't, I- it's not within my reach right now, but sometimes I use it as a metaphor for a personality when I'm working with my clients. I'll show them, 'cause it has, like, 20 different facets to it, and each one's a bit of a different [01:18:15] angle, d- different s- you know, um, surface area.

[01:18:19] Stephanie: And I use that as a metaphor for how we discover who we are, that any connection with any one person or environment or space is, like, a facet of that crystal. And that's [01:18:30] why parents can't do everything themselves when it comes to young adulthood, because no matter what you do, you're still just mom and dad, right?

[01:18:37] Stephanie: They still need other types of relationships to help them discover who they are. So the idea that you're [01:18:45] gonna take every single facet of who you are and put it all in one environment is like, that's like a, trying to make a Mercator projection of the planet. Like, the globe is actually round. You can't fit it into a 2D space.

[01:18:57] Stephanie: The best you can do is splice it and stretch and [01:19:00] compress some areas to try to make it fit. Are you a free thinking therapist looking for like-minded community? The Association for Mental Health Professionals is a sanctuary for holistic, critical thinking counselors and therapists who want to stand firm in our values [01:19:15] and reclaim our profession from ideologues.

[01:19:17] Stephanie: AMHP offers its members a blog and podcast, monthly webinars, and an annual conference each fall in Texas. Visit

[01:19:29] Stephanie: associationformentalhealthprofessionals.org to [01:19:30] join a growing number of like-minded therapists who want our profession back. All right, now back to the show. So the whole idea that you can truly be your whole self in any environment, that that's, that's at- an attainable goal or a [01:19:45] desirable goal, I think is misguided and also very anxiety-provoking, because that means I have to show all these parts of myself that exist in different contexts all to the same people, and potentially be open to scrutiny.

[01:19:59] Stephanie: [01:20:00] So then I have to somehow deal with my fear of being judged, right? Because I, I could f- you know, feel very comfortable in this one context, Tanya, having this conversation with you. But if I held the belief that I [01:20:15] have to be all of myself with you, and I were to try to bring in my inside jokes from my family life and share those with you too, well, now I'm gonna feel a lot more anxious because I don't know you and your values and your personality well enough to know if that's gonna land [01:20:30] well with you.

[01:20:30] Stephanie: So it can create a really high level of neurosis, I think, for people to even have the idea that they should try to be their whole self, and then it flattens the whole self, and it's like, come on, people, just let yourself compartmentalize.

[01:20:44] Tanya: [01:20:45] Yeah, I think a lot of employers are now realizing that bring your whole self to work was terrible, terrible, terrible idea.

[01:20:51] Tanya: I think they, I think they would admit that them- themselves now. I think the challenge for them is how do you ... You don't want people to come to work and be total [01:21:00] robots though either, right? So I, you know, we don't wanna live in that world either, and I think within, within some sectors you need to bring a little bit more of yourself to work.

[01:21:07] Tanya: So, um, um, I know, uh, Rosie Kay, who runs, um, F- Freedom in the Arts quite well, and that, and that's a, that's a, um, [01:21:15] that's an organization that looks at the sort of, these sorts of issues, but particularly within the arts. And she's like, "Well, you have to ... You, you know, they ... It's all about bringing your whole self to work."

[01:21:24] Tanya: So the, it's not such a clear line of You know, [01:21:30] th- 'cause, you know, freedom of expression if you're in the creative industries, that's kind of what it's about. So it's doesn't, it doesn't, can't quite be divided and, and I think there is a question of do we want to be robots at work? I mean, you want to know if your, you know, if your colleague's mother's just died, for example, or, you know, they're going through [01:21:45] a divorce.

[01:21:46] Tanya: So, you know, if, if they feel they want to share that, you're not gonna force them to share that, but it would be normal in a workplace to know something like that, even if you don't know them very well. It would normal to know, know each other a little bit. But I, I think we just... we got in a terrible [01:22:00] mess with all this stuff, and I think, you know, uh, that one of the questions that they're looking at is, um, w- when we talk about de-politicizing the workplace, for example, the conversation we had last week, we were saying, are we saying that we now need to educate everybody on, say, the unfashionable [01:22:15] groups that have had zero airtime?

[01:22:16] Tanya: Are we now, now that we've told everybody all about, you know, all, all this other stuff, are we now gonna go back and tell them about, you know, Christian beliefs and, you know, gender critical beliefs, and these are detransitioners, and these are [01:22:30] parents of ch- ch- you know, trans-identified children, and this is what you must be careful of?

[01:22:35] Tanya: You know, we we've already done, you know, how to, how to, you know, be mindful of people ha- having cancer treatment and y- you know, who are still at work or w- or do we need to just get [01:22:45] all of that stuff out and we just get out, get it all out, out, out, out, none of it, just none of it? And I think where they're landing actually is get all of it out.

[01:22:53] Tanya: So I don't think we're gonna start to see... I think we can maybe start to see better education coming through about the different [01:23:00] groups. But we, you know, we talked about the trans thing a lot today. So the other, you know, the other groups around there, so, you know, ch- uh, children of, uh, transitioners, for example, and how they might not, you know, want, want to go along with this, this kind of narrative either because [01:23:15] actually, you know, Dad deciding he was a woman actually wasn't a great thing for the family, for example.

[01:23:19] Tanya: Um, and you know, the, the, the women left behind in that situation also don't, don't wanna be hearing about all this stuff. But I don't, I can't now see, um, them going in for [01:23:30] educating everyone on everything. I think they're actually l- learnt their lesson from that, and they'll get rid of the whole thing. I mean, you know, in, in the UK we've got a very kind of, um- lively political scene at the moment in terms of, you know, the current Labour [01:23:45] government is not popular, and so you're ending up with a sort of-- so it looks like the center has sort of collapsed, center right and center left, which leaves you with the populist right and the populist left, and these are very different crowds.

[01:23:57] Tanya: And so a lot of people are [01:24:00] beginning to, you know, pick sides. A lot of people in the middle can't make sense of what's going on. There's a lot of talk about, you know, Nigel Farage and somehow Elon Musk is responsible for stuff, and Trump's responsible for stuff, even in the UK. Anyway, people get in a whole...

[01:24:14] Tanya: You know, you [01:24:15] can see how this whole s- political kind of soup that's going on, that's coming into the workplace too, and I think that's gonna be another really lively one as, as has, um, you know, the Gaza issue as well, which again, employers are going, "No, we wanna get rid of all of it." So I [01:24:30] think, I think if you, you can't say, "Well, we'll have these flags, but not those flags," for example, um, and we'll educate people on this, this religion, but not this religion So my inclination is that they're just gonna dump the whole thing and just say, "Nope, you know, [01:24:45] this is, this is what we do at this organization.

[01:24:47] Tanya: We make paperclips, and that's all we do here. If you would like to get to know your colleagues in your own personal time, you're free to do that. We don't expect you to be a robot, but also can you keep your personal politics out? And to a certain extent, you know, these are, these are [01:25:00] the rules, and let's just, let's just do it that way."

[01:25:01] Tanya: So I think that's what they'll move back to, and I think, I think they will find themselves being the most popular workplaces. I mean, one of the reasons why people like my, my live events is because they do great networking, 'cause these are all the sensible people, right? These... If you're gonna come to one of [01:25:15] my events, you're already, you're already saying, "I'm a critical thinker.

[01:25:18] Tanya: I think something's gone really wrong here." And people talk to each other about, you know, who's just got a new CEO who's sensible. What the hell's going on at that company? You, you don't wanna leave one job and go somewhere to [01:25:30] an organization that's even worse for this stuff. So it's actually really... It, it's kind of really good networking.

[01:25:34] Tanya: So I think, you know, and more and more I think the sensible people become the dominant group. So it, you know, at my events, we talk pretty much how you and I have [01:25:45] spoken today. Um, and then we'll say, "Well, you, you know, some- to some people this i- this belief in gender identity is really important to them.

[01:25:52] Tanya: Can we accommodate that? To what extent should we accommodate them in the workplace? Is this a belief that is accommodated, is kind of can be accommodated [01:26:00] in the workplace?" But already, even by doing that, you've flipped it so that we are the sensible majority, and suddenly they are the group that's having to fight to convince us that their belief system has a place in the workplace, not the other way around, [01:26:15] where theirs is the dominant view and then ours is the kind of like, "Oh, well, some people don't really believe in this stuff."

[01:26:20] Tanya: So already that's flipping, and I think that's as powerful as anything, actually normalizing that the sensible voice is in the room. And suddenly everyone's thinking, "Yeah, God, this is what the [01:26:30] sensible people sound like. I think these are my people." I just wanted to send out the bat signal 'cause I could see this happening.

[01:26:34] Tanya: I thought, "I'll send out the bat signal two years ago," when most people thought I was completely mad and thought, "What has happened to Tania? She used to be into some of this stuff." And maybe I was. I thought, "I'll send out the bat signal, so [01:26:45] I'll be like, 'We're the sensible people. We're over here,' right?

[01:26:47] Tanya: 'Here we are. Here we are.'" And as people have realized that I just saw it a little bit before they did, they are now coming to me saying, "I thought you'd gone completely mad, but now I think you're right about a lot of stuff, and can I come to your next [01:27:00] meeting?" I think that's, uh, it's really interesting, isn't it, who, who comes out of the woodwork, who, who emerges.

[01:27:06] Tanya: But people are there, and I think a lot of the sort of sensible centrist people just went a bit quiet, but I think they only need to be [01:27:15] shown where they belong and that they are right to be questioning this stuff, and they will come. They will start coming out of the woodwork. But you've gotta do it in a way that is Apolitical actually.

[01:27:25] Tanya: I think, you know, a lot of the people in the kind of podcast world want to do this kind of [01:27:30] anti-DEI, you know, anti-Farage, anti-Trump, anti-Mu- Musk... Sorry, not like these. Other way around, you know what I mean. They, they, they wanna do the whole, like, get rid of all DEI, and I'm like, "No." People will only come to my meetings if I say, "We are leaving our [01:27:45] own politics at home.

[01:27:45] Tanya: Is this good business? Is this not good business?" You know, is this good for the organization? What are the risks here? What's the risk- risks, the commercial risks, the legal risks, reputational risks? How, how can we be inclusive and get g- by which I mean, you know, [01:28:00] in the softest possible way, how do we get the best people to come and work here, wherever they're from, whatever their background, so we can all get along and make the paperclips and sell the paperclips, happy days.

[01:28:09] Tanya: And what's people really... You know, when it comes to anxiety, you know what makes people really anxious? Is not knowing if they're gonna have [01:28:15] a job next week. So if the company does well, then your job is probably more likely to be secure. In which case, again, happy days, right? So actually lose the fruit in the fruit bowl.

[01:28:25] Tanya: You lose the yoga lessons on a Friday, which no one goes to anyway. If the company does [01:28:30] well, you will have a job. Isn't that really what people want? Do your own stuff at the weekend. I think that sounds like a better idea.

[01:28:36] Stephanie: Well, it sounds like a really encouraging note to end on because it seems like you're already noticing the vibe shift and that this is what the majority of [01:28:45] people want.

[01:28:45] Stephanie: They want to go to work, get their work done, take home a paycheck, not get too personal, not get too political. And, uh, it seems like the US, or sorry, the UK is always a few years ahead of the US, so I hope our American listeners are feeling encouraged. [01:29:00] So Tanya, uh, people can find you at This Isn't Working!

[01:29:03] Stephanie: Podcast. Where else can they find you?

[01:29:06] Tanya: I'm on X, @isntworkingpod. Um, I'm on LinkedIn, just, um, under my own name. I'm usually picking a fight with somebody or other. Um, those, yeah, the, [01:29:15] those are the, those are the main ways, and they'll, there'll be more about, um, This Is Working as well, so keep following everything.

[01:29:20] Tanya: I will be publicizing that. And I think we'll g- there's gonna be quite a big, um, online, um, element to that next. Most people set up an online element and then do real-life events. I've done it the o- other way [01:29:30] around, and a lot of people are now saying, "Actually, you know, I'm in America," or, "I'm in Scotland," or, I'm, you know, "I'm in Australia, I wanna s- see these, these things and I can't come to your events."

[01:29:39] Tanya: But I think there's a lot more in-depth conversations to have with employers, which maybe aren't right for [01:29:45] my main podcast, which is kind of for everybody really, for employees as well. But there's a lot of, you know, proper legal stuff we need to get into, so I want to give them that support as well. So there'll, there'll be an online element to that, and maybe I'll start doing live webinars and that kind of stuff.

[01:29:56] Tanya: It'd be fun. A- actually, it's quite funny. Some of the stuff, you know, as I say, there's an [01:30:00] element of this, and I'm quite a light person generally. I'm not super serious, so I think I have quite a good way of presenting this and going, "Oh, God. I know what we were trying to achieve here, but we've gone a bit wrong, haven't we?

[01:30:10] Tanya: Oh, God." And ev- every- once everyone's kind of going, "Oh, God, this is a mess. Right, let's sort it out," [01:30:15] then you're kind of already pushing through the kind of, ugh, awkwardness of it, and you can find a way through it. So hopefully that's kind of modeling a, a way through. Well, they say the only way out is through, don't they?

[01:30:26] Tanya: It's not gonna fix itself. These problems are not gonna fix themselves, so I haven't got [01:30:30] any other ideas other than to start talking about it. Maybe we can, you know- Kind of have, have a bit of a laugh, and at the, the events we have a glass of wine as well. And actually, that's what people want.

[01:30:39] Stephanie: I think that's so wise to bring that levity into it.

[01:30:42] Stephanie: And, and you can get so much further with [01:30:45] humor, levity, playfulness. Uh, you know, when... Al- although the dynamics that, that you have noticed and called attention to are heavy and can feel very dominant in an [01:31:00] environment, they do create a sense of walking on eggshells. But at the same time, if you allow that sense to take over, then you also kind of perpetuate it, right?

[01:31:08] Stephanie: Because if you're, if you're being hypervigilant, if you're tiptoeing, if you're not being direct, if you're afraid of being humorous or playful, [01:31:15] all that kind of stuff kind of contributes to the heaviness, contributes to the sense that we all need to walk on eggshells. And it, it gives a defensive feeling that leaves others feeling that maybe you have done something wrong.

[01:31:25] Stephanie: Maybe you do have a reason to be defensive. So I, I love that sort of humorous, light, [01:31:30] playful attitude. I think that can really get a long way, and I hope that this has been enlightening for our listeners as well. So thank you for your wisdom today, Tanya. It's been a pleasure.

[01:31:38] Tanya: Thank you for having me. I've learned a lot as well.

[01:31:39] Tanya: Thank you.

[01:31:41] Stephanie: Thank you for listening to You Must Be Some Kind of [01:31:45] Therapist. If you enjoyed this episode, kindly take a moment to rate, review, share, or comment on it using your platform of choice. And of course, please remember, podcasts are not therapy, and I'm not your therapist. [01:32:00] Special thanks to Joey Pecoraro for this awesome theme song, Half Awake, and to Pods by Nick for production.

[01:32:08] Stephanie: For help navigating the impact of the gender craze on your family, be sure to check out my program for parents, [01:32:15] ROGD Repair. Any resource you heard mentioned on this show, plus how to get in touch with me, can all be found in the notes and links below. Rain or shine, I hope you will step outside to breathe [01:32:30] the air today.

[01:32:31] Stephanie: In the words of Max Ehrmann, "With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful [01:32:45] [01:33:00] [01:33:15] world."