You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist

224. Johann D'Souza
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[00:00:00] Johann: Parents have a very unrealistic expectation of what their children are capable of, and just seeing that it's beyond their power to have a temperate, moderate use of this highly addictive device. Traditionally, this ability to do what we put our mind to, to be able to [00:00:15] control ourselves, to be able to exercise good judgment, these were thought of as powers, as abilities of the soul that are acquired over time through long struggle until they become habits, and they're called virtues, which comes from virtus, the Latin for power [00:00:30] or strength.

[00:00:30] Johann: The parents themselves do not have the power to do what is good for their child. They do not have the ability. They do not have the habit of the soul.

[00:00:40] Announcer: You must be some kind of therapist?[00:00:45]

[00:00:46] Stephanie: Today, I'm welcoming back to the podcast Dr. Johann D'Souza. He's a clinical psychologist specializing in obsessive compulsive disorder. He works with children, adolescents, and adults. He's previously appeared on this podcast on [00:01:00] episode 94, which was called Conquering OCD and Behavioral Addiction: The Power of Mindset with Dr.

[00:01:06] Stephanie: Johann D'Souza. He also appeared on episode 169, in which he generously allowed me to borrow the episode of [00:01:15] his podcast, Virtuous Leaders, which featured me as a guest. Today, we're going to talk about a very timely topic that's on a lot of people's minds, which is smartphone addiction in teenagers. Johann, so great to have you back.

[00:01:27] Stephanie: Welcome.

[00:01:28] Johann: Thanks, Stephanie. It's really good to be [00:01:30] here.

[00:01:30] Stephanie: All right, I am so glad that you are specializing in smartphone addiction in teenagers these days and, um, delivering some real talk about it because, uh, it's, it's hard for people to draw the sort of hard line stances that you've taken. It [00:01:45] sounds like you're arguing the position that teenagers should never have smartphones.

[00:01:48] Stephanie: Is that correct?

[00:01:50] Johann: Yep, that's it, and from one hardliner to another, I, I appreciate that recognition

[00:01:57] Stephanie: Okay, well I'm excited to dive into it and at [00:02:00] least give a voice to this perspective. Uh, 'cause I think, you know, even if people don't make decisions for their family that are perfectly in line with what you'd recommend, taking this stance I think helps shift, shift the Overton window [00:02:15] for all of us.

[00:02:16] Johann: Exactly.

[00:02:17] Stephanie: Um, before we-

[00:02:18] Johann: Yeah, that's part of the reason I do it ...

[00:02:19] Stephanie: before we get into it, um, you are also a PsyPact licensed psychologist, and this is something that I wanna make sure our audience [00:02:30] understands before we get into smartphone addiction in teenagers because I frequently find myself in private conversations with my parent coaching clients explaining what PsyPact is and that there are a limited number of therapists such as yourself who qualify under PsyPact [00:02:45] to work as clinical psychologists across a number of states.

[00:02:49] Stephanie: So a lot of American consumers of therapy who are relatively new to searching for a therapist might not even understand that therapists are typically licensed according to state, and [00:03:00] they might not be familiar with all the different types of therapists there are, LMFT, LPC, uh, LCSW, PsyD, and things like that.

[00:03:09] Stephanie: So PsyPact as something that applies specifically to people like yourself with a doctorate in [00:03:15] psychology I think is really great, and we need more of this. We need more, um, progress in terms of allowing therapists to work in different states given that so many people are just doing telehealth now. So I just wanna take a moment [00:03:30] while I'm speaking with someone like yourself who is a PsyPact licensed psychologist and have you explain to our guests, or excuse me, to our listeners what is PsyPact and what does it enable therapists and consumers to do?

[00:03:41] Johann: Well, as I see it, it's a rare win for government [00:03:45] bureaucracy, which actually makes it easier for people to access appropriate healthcare. So, uh, the way it works is the, these, uh, s- PSYPACT participating states provide a reciprocal [00:04:00] licensure to anyone who is licensed within one of those states, and then they go through the PSYPACT specific process.

[00:04:08] Johann: So at this point there are more than 40 states, uh, that, that all have this reciprocal licensure. So even though I'm [00:04:15] located in Texas, I can see people across the country with some notable exceptions that don't participate, like California, Massachusetts, New York. I think those are the big ones that don't participate in it.

[00:04:26] Stephanie: So for people listening, remember this [00:04:30] only applies to people with a, um, PsyD, right? Correct. So doctors of clinical psychology like yourself.

[00:04:36] Johann: That, that might be right, yeah. So and keep in mind that within, uh, to be called a psychologist you need a doctorate degree, but that could be either a PsyD or a [00:04:45] PhD.

[00:04:45] Johann: So my, my per- uh, my personal track, uh, was PhD, but both of those would be considered doctorate,

[00:04:50] Stephanie: um, psychology. Okay, so you have a PhD and you qualify. Okay. So, so, so s- clinical psychologists, whether they be PhD or PsyD, [00:05:00] and this is something I'm always having to remind people, I'm not a clinical psychologist.

[00:05:02] Stephanie: People call me a psychologist. I'm not. Uh, I am a psychology specialist. I have a master's degree in psychology and a lot of experience in the field as a master's level clinician, so [00:05:15] LMFT, licensed marriage and family therapist. All the other Ls, uh, LPC, LCSW, those are all master's level clinicians. This is just good information for people who are new to therapy and don't really know all the, you know, ins and outs of licensure.

[00:05:28] Stephanie: Um, so just because someone lives [00:05:30] in a PSYPACT state doesn't necessarily mean that all the therapists in that state qualify for PSYPACT. They have to go through a process like you did, right? So they either have to be a PhD or a PsyD, and then do they have to apply for PSYPACT?

[00:05:44] Johann: Yes, exactly. I- [00:05:45] it's pretty easy to get it, I think.

[00:05:47] Johann: Um, it's just, you know, fill out an, uh, a, a form. You pay a few hundred bucks a year. You gotta renew it, and then, and then you get approved

[00:05:56] Stephanie: Well, that's a pretty major shift because [00:06:00] outside of Psypact, if a therapist of any kind did wanna get licensed in multiple states, they would actually have to independently maintain their license with every single state, right?

[00:06:10] Stephanie: And with 50 states in the country, that's untenable in terms of the, the fee, the [00:06:15] application, the, you know, all the logistics and the ins and outs. So to have just one place that you go to renew your license at that level is, I think, a huge win and should, uh, reduce barriers to therapy for a lot of people.

[00:06:27] Stephanie: And so especially when I'm helping my clients [00:06:30] find someone they can trust for their kid, we're looking for people like you, right? Someone who, uh, can work across a variety of states. So thanks for taking a moment to break that down with me because I, I just find myself explaining it to people privately [00:06:45] so often, and it's like, oh, I've never actually mentioned Psypact on this podcast, and people ought to know about it.

[00:06:50] Stephanie: And so if you are a listener wondering if this applies to you, you can just go ahead and google Psypact. That's P-S-Y-P-A-C-T. Um, [00:07:00] whenever I'm talking to someone in a state and I don't know if that state is under Psypact or not, I'll just go ahead and google the Psypact map. I'll see the current list of states, and I've been following this since there were 20-something states on that list, and now it's, it's 80% of the country, and that's really [00:07:15] great.

[00:07:15] Stephanie: All right, so let's dive into smartphone addiction in teenagers. You recently published a book on this. Can you tell us about it?

[00:07:21] Johann: Sustaining Teens From Toxic Screens. So it's basically based on the talk that I've been giving over the last eight years around the [00:07:30] country, and it's just a way of getting the message to more people.

[00:07:33] Stephanie: And what is that message?

[00:07:35] Johann: Never give your child a smartphone. It's a little bit of a spoiler alert. Usually I don't do that reveal until, like, two-thirds of the way through the talk. Uh, but that's, yeah, that's the [00:07:45] message. Say no to toxic screen use. That's video games, social media, and pornography, and those all are primarily accessed through the smartphone.

[00:07:54] Stephanie: So normally you lead up to that. You build the case first, but [00:08:00] I appreciate our audience knowing upfront that you do take that sort of hard line stance, and then, and then we can hear why you would draw the line like that. So you count social media Pornography, I think those are easier to [00:08:15] agree on. Video games, that's something that, you know, they're-- I would think a lot of parents would say, "Well, in moderation," and, you know, "They're innocent.

[00:08:25] Stephanie: They're kid-friendly." That depends on the game, of course. But what is your stance on video games in [00:08:30] particular?

[00:08:31] Johann: Yeah, I think you're right that it may be the least harmful, which is why I typically order the toxic screen uses in, in that way, in that hierarchy: video games, social media, and pornography. The reason I call it toxic screen use is [00:08:45] because I think it's impossible or, or almost impossible to use these forms of screen use well, either because they're intrinsically evil, uh, like pornography, um, or because they're designed to be addictive, like video [00:09:00] games and social media.

[00:09:02] Johann: So-- And, and video games affects, uh, boys more. Social media affects girls more, although, of course, there is overlap. Why I think video games are harmful So it, it trains [00:09:15] young people i- to believe that the purpose of life is mindless entertainment, and the purpose of work is, i- is to basically feed their video game habit.

[00:09:28] Johann: So they basically minimize [00:09:30] effort and maximize mindless entertainment, which is what leads to the, uh, phenomenon that Haidt describes of failure to launch, you know, young men living with their parents without, uh, any job prospect or clear [00:09:45] career or even education, uh, for, for years, uh, sometimes for decades.

[00:09:51] Johann: Uh, so why, why do... How do video games contribute to this? Well, one of the mechanisms is you get a reward [00:10:00] for a disproportionately, uh, light amount of work, which is, um, which i- which is like a evil twin of the real world. In the real world, you, you get a reward, you get fulfillment for putting in a proportional amount of work.[00:10:15]

[00:10:15] Johann: Um, if you, like, think about historically, like starting having a garden or raising kids, like things that-- These things are actually extremely difficult, uh, they take a lot of effort, and they take a lot of knowledge too, but they're also very, very rewarding. Um, [00:10:30] whereas the-- with the video game, uh, y- it, it rewards you much more frequently, much more easily.

[00:10:38] Johann: In fact, there was a case in Japan of a couple who were so immersed in this video game that their [00:10:45] baby died of neglect, and the video game they were playing was one in which they were raising a family together. So it's really a perfect illustration, tragical, uh, o- of, of this principle I'm referring to.

[00:10:57] Stephanie: That's extremely tragic and disturbing, [00:11:00] and I know I personally have seen, and I think many people have seen those more extreme cases of failure to launch. And, um, I'm curious what you think the safe amount of video games are for kids, and if [00:11:15] that varies depending on age.

[00:11:16] Johann: My goal in life is to achieve, to strive to achieve the highest level of human and even supernatural perfection And I know it's a, that's a big, that's a big task.

[00:11:29] Johann: It's a [00:11:30] challenge. Of course, the growth is limitless. Um, but I'm, I'm not content with the minimum, and I would call other people, especially young men, to strive for the same. There is... There-- The l- the [00:11:45] world is very beautiful. The universe is very beautiful, even beyond the things that we can see. Uh, and video games, even if they're not intrinsically evil, are rarely and perhaps never the best thing that [00:12:00] we could be doing with our time.

[00:12:02] Johann: So my, my point is, uh, hey, what, what i- is there something better you could be doing? And it's, i- it's not about... People often frame this in terms of the minimum. Well, let, let's permit a little [00:12:15] bit of it because it's not evil in itself. Um, but my point is, well, what about looking in terms of the maximum?

[00:12:21] Johann: What i- what is a beautiful life in pursuit of the greatest goods, uh, that we can strive for, and how do we instill that, uh, [00:12:30] in children so that they can, so that they can achieve their full potential and also bring other people upwards? Um, so I would replace video games with more positive activities like taking on [00:12:45] challenging responsibilities, wholesome leisure, reading, playing outside for children, or just being outside in nature, spending in-person time with friends, art, crafts, um, building things with your hands, [00:13:00] woodworking.

[00:13:01] Johann: If, if someone were to invest the thousands of hours that is spent on video games into these activities, how much more fulfill- playing an instrument, how much more fulfilling would that be in their lives?

[00:13:12] Stephanie: So I'm also an idealist like you, [00:13:15] and what you're saying resonates with me. Um, as a stepparent, it's, it's a constant exercise in letting go of control because there's only so much say I [00:13:30] have in that role.

[00:13:31] Stephanie: And I think about what my role as a stepparent in that regard has to do with all of the other imperfections and, and limits that families face in their day-to-day life between [00:13:45] the ideal and what's real. Um, so I'm curious in your own family or in your client work what you've seen w- in terms of people sort of recognizing what you're saying about [00:14:00] is that, is that time well spent, you know?

[00:14:02] Stephanie: Or, um, can we get fulfillment out of other sources? And what happens to our brain shifting back and forth between those states, right? So if If video games produce a certain type [00:14:15] of enjoyment, and that's, that's always gonna be what the kid gravitates to if left to their own devices, right? So setting limits so that kids have to go back and forth between getting one source of [00:14:30] fulfillment versus that sort of dopamine detox, getting it the, the slower way.

[00:14:36] Stephanie: Like, in the reality of, of how this plays out for families, what have you seen?

[00:14:42] Johann: Well, I have had the privilege of working with very, [00:14:45] very good families over the years. I've been mentoring young, young men for 15 years, 16 years, uh, since I was in college, uh, actually. Um, so I've seen the culture change, and I've, I've seen many very effective families.

[00:14:58] Johann: Um, so ju- just to give [00:15:00] you a few perspectives, one, you... So there's the one, the one approach of kind of like naively optimistic, I would say, of, "Okay, we'll, we'll give them the video games, but they're only gonna play it on weekends, and it's only gonna [00:15:15] be an hour a day or two hours a day, or only after their schoolwork is done."

[00:15:20] Johann: What parents don't realize at the time, which they quickly come to realize, is no amount of video games is enough. The child [00:15:30] won't say after an hour, "Okay, I got my hourly quota. Now I'm done. Now let me go and read a book and play outside." They, they want more. I mean, that's, that's what these things are designed to do because it's like, uh, effortless [00:15:45] reward.

[00:15:46] Johann: Um, the soul desires to explore and to know, and the body desires to rest, and toxic screen use like video games allows us to accomplish both of those goals simultaneously [00:16:00] So then the, then the children just... It turn, it turns into an argument, right? It turns into this constant negotiation, um, and no, and, and, and in the end, no one, no one's happy with it.

[00:16:13] Johann: So on the other [00:16:15] hand, I've seen parents with a lot of conviction, a lot of foresights, a lot of intentionality, and they make the decision that, "Yeah, we're, we're just not a video game family. We're, we're never gonna have video games." Uh, [00:16:30] for, for the most part, that's how I grew up as well. So I, so I kinda understand it from the child's perspective as well.

[00:16:36] Johann: Uh, and on the other hand, they, uh, they also provide a very healthy environment of, um, letting the [00:16:45] children experience unsupervised free play. So it, it is helpful to not just have a negative goal of we're just not going to expose them to, to harmful things. Uh, it's hel- it's helpful to also have, [00:17:00] um, positive activities to compensate it with.

[00:17:03] Johann: Uh, and especially for children, one of the most important is unsupervised free play. Uh, so 'cause the, because the irony is that children are, are in this digital world which [00:17:15] contains so many harms, as you know. Uh, but on the other hand, they're being, uh, they're being overly protected from real world interactions in which the, the character growth, the personal growth [00:17:30] would, would really take place, and which would prepare them for the real world, and is what used to be called a childhood.

[00:17:38] Johann: I mean, now we have to call it unsupervised free play. It used to be that's just how, what, what kids did and, and what a beautiful life that [00:17:45] is. So I, I have... And then what I've been able to see over 15 years is seeing these children grow up And seeing how well-adjusted they are, how confident they are, uh, how independent they are, how interesting they are.

[00:17:59] Johann: Like, [00:18:00] even at a young a- even at 16, 17, 18 years old, I c- I could see them as a peer. Like, I could be friends with this person. I can have a deep conversation with this person. We can talk about books. We can talk about deep ideas. [00:18:15] Um, so the, uh, i- it's really worth it. Once you see the, the positive outcome, you can see, wow, raising a child like that is, is very worthwhile.

[00:18:24] Stephanie: I mean, I would definitely commend any families that are able to hold that structure of we're [00:18:30] just not a video game family. That's not something we do in our home. When you're also supplying a stable environment with a lot of access to the outdoors, hopefully a safe neighborhood where there's other kids to play with, [00:18:45] um, you know, enriching activities, things like that, I, I think that's ideal.

[00:18:50] Stephanie: And then, you know, it raises questions families navigate of, okay, and what about when you're at your friend's house, right? Because we might not have video games here in our home, but when you go [00:19:00] to your friend's house, you know, here, here are the things that we can and cannot control about that. Um, so I think there are a lot of sort of practical questions to sort out on a case-by-case basis there, but I, [00:19:15] I like, I like the ideal that you're setting just in terms of recognizing how valuable every moment of a childhood and an adolescence is, and that all the time spent [00:19:30] getting that Feeling of fulfillment that doesn't have any implications outside of the context of video games could be spent developing things that, you know, in my course I talk about the importance of [00:19:45] identity being based in competence and confidence.

[00:19:49] Stephanie: And I, I share your perceptions, right? That when we see these young people who are being active, outdoorsy, creative, using their [00:20:00] minds, and their hands, and their bodies, that they're creating such enriching experiences and the building blocks of identity. And I definitely see that connection as well that you're pointing out about, um, the role that video games can [00:20:15] play for f- with failure to launch for some of these young men.

[00:20:18] Stephanie: I also know what you're saying when you say that no amount of video games is enough for the kid. And I think for families who are going to allow video games in their [00:20:30] homes, that it's important that we discuss how to keep those parameters, right? Because you talked about the power struggle, um, the kid pushing for more time on the video game rather than just [00:20:45] accepting their limit.

[00:20:46] Stephanie: And I think it's important that families be able to navigate those moments. Um, so I'm curious, what advice would you give? Let's say a family said, "No, we're not gonna take away video games completely, Dr. D'Souza, um, [00:21:00] but we are going to set a limit," right? "And our limit is half an hour on weekdays only after you've finished your homework, and, you know, up to two hours total over the weekend."

[00:21:10] Stephanie: Let's say the family sets that limit for their son. And let's [00:21:15] say that they then come back to you and say he complains, right? So when he reaches his limit, he gets moody, he tries to argue. What advice would you give them about reinforcing [00:21:30] that boundary effectively under those circumstances?

[00:21:32] Johann: One way to frame it is to recognize that, uh, well, well, you know, if, if you are this resistant and complaining about these rules that we set, then may- maybe this activity is not healthy for [00:21:45] you.

[00:21:45] Johann: Uh, so maybe it's actually better, maybe you are too attached to it, so maybe we need to talk about reducing the time further, um, or just take a break from it, um, because you're, you're too [00:22:00] attached to it. Uh, so I think the mistake that parents make is they, uh, kinda en- engaging the child, uh, too much in a way that's ineffective.

[00:22:12] Johann: So a- adults are much more, [00:22:15] uh, they, they tend to judge- jump to, like, logical explanations, whereas when you have some- someone who's driven by emotions, the logical explanation is, is not gonna be effective [00:22:30] And then adults end up getting frustrated. Like, "Oh, I've, I've explained this to you before." Well, you, you're kinda...

[00:22:35] Johann: You're, you're, you're missing the point. This is not about an explanation. Uh, it's about working with resistance and working with someone who's highly motivated by [00:22:45] emotions and who's just providing rationalizations for unhealthy behavior. And they're going to say and do what- whatever they can that they...

[00:22:54] Johann: To, to, to get the effect that they want, uh [00:23:00] So, and now it, and of course, like a very, very important parenting principle, consistency in follow through, following through on one's word. Because, uh, this ar- this situation's not just about video games. If the parents don't follow [00:23:15] through on what they're, on what they said, then that generalizes to every area of discipline.

[00:23:22] Johann: Uh, all of a sudden, the parents' authority is weakened, and that's going to matter when we're talking about anything else, [00:23:30] drugs or staying out at night or doing your homework or, or, or anything. So i- in some way, it's better not even to set, not even to set an expectation than to set an expectation that you're not going to, not going to [00:23:45] enforce.

[00:23:45] Johann: Um, but the, the main, the main message I actually, uh, give to parents, I, I kind of have four takeaways from the talk, and the first one, probably most important one, is just embrace your parental authority, [00:24:00] that you are the parent. You have authority over your child. Um, that authority is in nature. It doesn't come from government or society or even religion.

[00:24:13] Johann: It's just, it's, it's in nature. It comes from [00:24:15] God, ultimately. Uh, and no one else can take, no one else can take that authority. No one else can, uh, replace you in that, although they can assist you in it. Um, and they, for some reason, [00:24:30] there is just a, there is this absence of parental authority, you know, which is so prevalent that, uh, you almost wonder if there was, if the, if there was an intentional, um, if there's an intentional fight against [00:24:45] parental authority.

[00:24:46] Johann: So what ends up happening, uh, is that the emotions of the child control the child's behavior, and then the child's behavior controls the mom's emotions, which then in- which then controls the dad's [00:25:00] decisions, and you have a complete inversion of the power structure in which the family's being directed by the emotions of a teenage girl.

[00:25:07] Johann: And the alternative to that is embracing your parental authority.

[00:25:11] Stephanie: Well, you're singing my tune on a number of levels there. [00:25:15] So first, your point about how kids can sound like they're trying to have a logical, rational debate with you, but I am constantly warning parents, do not be fooled by that. [00:25:30] It's exactly what you said.

[00:25:31] Stephanie: It's, it's that there's an emotion first, and that emotion drives their motivation and how they want to see things and how they want you to see things, and then they're using the tools at their disposal, which is their budding capacity for reasoning [00:25:45] And they're, they're broadening vocabulary. They're using those tools in a very emotionally driven way to try to get what they want, right?

[00:25:54] Stephanie: It's, it's your job to, for one, predict that because nothing should be [00:26:00] surprising to a parent of a kid of any age, that they, they want what they want, right? And some of what they want is okay within limits. Some of what they want is good and healthy and, and there are no limits on, you know, how many blueberries your toddler can eat.

[00:26:14] Stephanie: The, [00:26:15] the, the limit is your budget, right? Because those blueberries are good for them. Um, so they, there are things that they're gonna want that are healthy and that you can give them unlimited access to, or relatively unlimited. There are things where you need to set the limits, and then there are things [00:26:30] where it's off limits, right?

[00:26:32] Stephanie: And it's your job to know the difference between those things. And I agree about, you know, some boundaries are non-negotiable, and if you give your kid the sense that they are negotiable, [00:26:45] then prepare for the argument, prepare for their- Exactly ... best attempt at negotiation. And I think the most vicious trap that families can fall into, especially as adolescence really ramps up is when [00:27:00] they've engaged in intermittent reward of bad behavior.

[00:27:04] Stephanie: So you know exactly what I'm talking about as a behaviorist, right? So, so let's break this down for our audience, and I'm curious for your commentary on it. So d- for the audience to, to understand what I'm talking about, we're talking about slot machine [00:27:15] syndrome here. We're talking about how the most reinforcing type of reward there is is the one that comes at random intervals.

[00:27:20] Stephanie: I pull the slot machine sl- uh, handle, and I may or may not get a reward, and so it keeps me guessing and trying and ooh, what's the algorithm, and maybe I can get [00:27:30] it next time. And if you, as a parent, occasionally cave under pressure when your kid does a behavior that you'd rather discourage, a behavior such as screaming, crying, throwing a fit, [00:27:45] breaking things, threatening you, calling you names, you know, any unwanted behavior.

[00:27:49] Stephanie: If it ever, ever works to get them what they want, congratulations, you've just reinforced the behavior. You've just taught them that even if it's one out of hund- [00:28:00] one out of 100 times, this might be that lucky time that it actually works. And if your kid ever gets physically aggressive, threatens violence against themself or you, you've entered a whole new danger zone, and this is why in my course I teach about why intermittent [00:28:15] reinforcement is so powerful and how parents need to prepare for extinction bursts, which is the other side of it.

[00:28:20] Stephanie: So when you stop reinforcing the behavior, when you've decided we're gonna set boundaries and this unwanted behavior is no longer going to succeed in getting the kid what they [00:28:30] want, uh, now you have to prepare for an extinction burst, which is they're gonna ramp up even more because they're, like, pressing the lever, pressing the lever, pressing the lever.

[00:28:38] Stephanie: When am I gonna get what I want? So I'm always having this conversation with parents, especially ones who have occasionally broken down under [00:28:45] pressure, ones who have been manipulated or coerced into dropping their boundaries by things like, you know, threats of violence and, and that's when we're really in the danger zone.

[00:28:56] Stephanie: I just wanted to give you that piece to respond to as well, 'cause I [00:29:00] know you've seen this as too.

[00:29:01] Johann: Yeah. That's very well said, Stephanie. I don't know that I have anything to add to it. You explained it very well.

[00:29:06] Stephanie: It's to your point about how, you know, the kid's gonna try to get what they want, and they're not wrong for trying, [00:29:15] right?

[00:29:15] Stephanie: It's the, it's the parent's job to reinforce what's allowed and what's not allowed. And so the thing I always, you know, especially the parents who, who have more the bleeding heart, the thing I have to remind them is that having boundaries with your kid is kind. It's the kindest thing that you can [00:29:30] do for them.

[00:29:30] Stephanie: And, and so one analogy that I use is the toddler at the candy bin, because if you don't want your toddler to have unlimited candy, then the candy bin needs to be out of reach. If you put the candy bin in the lowest cabinet in your [00:29:45] kitchen without a lock on it Um, then you can't really blame your toddler for going for the candy and eating all of it whenever they want, because they're just a toddler.

[00:29:57] Stephanie: So I say to parents, "Your adolescent with their [00:30:00] smartphone is a toddler with a candy bin." And what I've seen are these power struggles where the parents are communicating in some way or another, often quite passive-aggressive, their dissatisfaction with their kid for being a smartphone addict, and that's actually so unkind to [00:30:15] the kid.

[00:30:15] Stephanie: It's like, okay, you gave them the phone at, what, 13? You made the mistake of not setting limits from the start. So the advice I give... See, I don't have the same exact hard lines that you do, but the advice I give is do not give your child a device with the expectation of [00:30:30] privacy or the expectation of lack of limits.

[00:30:33] Stephanie: When you give the device in the first place, give it with the expectation there's no privacy here, and I set the limits, and here are your limits to start, and those can be changed at any time depending on how you're responding to this. [00:30:45] Um, you know, if, on the other hand, if you don't do that, if you give an expect- if you give a device with an expectation of privacy or an expectation of unlimited access, then you're preparing yourself for more of a power struggle when you need to take that away and they're upset [00:31:00] with you.

[00:31:01] Stephanie: But in the absence of that boundary, what you have is a toddler candy bin dynamic, where the kid is spending all their time on their phone. They're using their phone in ways that you don't like. They're hunched over the screen. They're rude. They're snappy. They're not spending time with family. They're, you know, [00:31:15] finding their way into some content that you are worried about, understandably And you as a parent are potentially communicating your displeasure in a passive-aggressive way.

[00:31:28] Stephanie: You're s- you know, and I've [00:31:30] had parents come to me saying, "I call my, my kid a smartphone addict." And I'm going, "It's your fault. You gave it to them," right? Take some responsibility. This is why I teach, uh, in the course I teach tools like strategic apologizing. [00:31:45] I teach the parents, okay, you need to own this mistake, right?

[00:31:48] Stephanie: We apologize. We gave you this. We should never have given it to you in the first place. We now see the error in our ways, and we have to take away something we should have [00:32:00] never given in the first place. We understand that taking it away feels like a loss, and you're allowed to have your feelings about that, but here's our reason for doing so.

[00:32:07] Johann: You explained that very well. I, I think that's, uh, absolutely right. There's a very... Parents have a very unrealistic [00:32:15] expectation of what their children are capable of. Uh, so and just seeing that, look, it's be- it's beyond their power, uh, to, uh, have a temperate, moderate use of this highly addictive device.

[00:32:28] Johann: You know, [00:32:30] traditionally, this ability to, to do what we want to d- to do what we put our mind to, to be able to control ourselves, to be able to exercise good judgment, these were thought of as, as powers, as [00:32:45] abilities of the soul that are acquired over time through long struggle until they become habits, and they're called virtues, which comes from virtus, the La- the Latin for power or strength.

[00:32:57] Johann: Uh, so it's important to r- there's a lot of wisdom, [00:33:00] uh, behind that way of understanding human nature, that i- if someone doesn't have that habit, if they don't have that virtue, they, they are incapable of doing what is good for them. Now, I'm gonna take this, I'm gonna kinda like, [00:33:15] uh, take this a step further, um, a meta application of this, which is You, you rightly point out to the parents that they introduced this.

[00:33:28] Johann: What I've come to realize [00:33:30] through speaking to parents for, for eight years on this topic is the parents themselves do not have the power to do what is good for their child. They do not have the ability, they do not have the habit of the soul because [00:33:45] I... You know, unfortunately, many adults are just children in adult bodies and, you know, you and I are adults, we can relate to that.

[00:33:53] Johann: We know our own struggles, that if we have smartphones, we're probably addicted ourselves because these are [00:34:00] extremely powerful. It's, it's very rare to find someone who has a smartphone and is not addicted to it or who wouldn't say that they use it more than they would like to use it. So w- what I, what I've seen in my clinical practice, [00:34:15] in my mentoring, uh, o- one of the strongest drivers of, of child smartphone use and them having the smartphone when, before they're ready for it is on the one hand, maternal anxiety [00:34:30] and on the other hand, um, kind of weak passive dads.

[00:34:35] Johann: So those roles can switch, but I think typically that's what I've seen. It's, it's like anxious moms, uh, weak passive dads. Uh, and I [00:34:45] understand where the-- I, I mean, I have a lot of empathy, uh, towards people in this situation. Um, maybe they didn't have strong parents themselves and my job is here not to, not to like cast blame but to help people just recognize and then, uh, [00:35:00] develop the strength to, to move beyond it.

[00:35:03] Johann: Um, but I think the first step is recognizing what the actual challenge is.

[00:35:07] Stephanie: How do you see that the combination of an anxious mom and a passive dad contributes to this dynamic? Can you break down [00:35:15] sort of the mechanics of that family pattern for us?

[00:35:17] Johann: I'll tell you how this shows up in my, in my practice.

[00:35:20] Johann: So I'll have i- initially the parents, um, call me in for their, let's say, high school child not performing as [00:35:30] well in school as they know he's capable of. Uh, and so they think, well, maybe as you know, as, as you've experienced also with therapy, many parents have the approach of, well it's, you know, it's my child's fault and they just need therapy and then I [00:35:45] can like kind of wipe my hands of this and then the therapist will fix my child and we can all move on.

[00:35:50] Johann: Um- But when I, when I get to, uh, which is not recognizing their own role in the dynamic, right? Uh, when we sit [00:36:00] down with the child, mom, dad, I'm laying out... I'm just laying out the research on screen use, which is very clear at this point. It's not ambiguous. And the child looks [00:36:15] terrified, like, "Ah, man, it's all over for me.

[00:36:17] Johann: I'm gonna lose my, my smartphone. I'm gonna lose my video games." The mom looks, like, very fearful. In fact, often, like, at least half the time she's, she starts tearing up. [00:36:30] Uh, and then the dad is nodding along, agreeing with me with conviction, like, "Yeah, I told you. I told you we shouldn't have gotten those video games.

[00:36:40] Johann: I told you we shouldn't have gotten the smartphone." At, at first, I [00:36:45] used to think that, "Yeah, dad is on my side. Like, this is my man. Uh, I got an ally in the room here." Then it occurred to me, like, wait, wait a second. You knew the whole time that this was not a good idea, and yet you [00:37:00] went along with it? You're the head of the family.

[00:37:03] Johann: You're the authority. Like, if you're not the protector of your family, then, then who is? So ultimately, the, the child's emotions are not an issue [00:37:15] if, if the mom can be strong. And, and the mom's emotions are not an issue if the dad can be strong. That's what we're looking for the dad for, is this, to be the, the rock, the emotional stability.

[00:37:27] Johann: Because it's, it's okay if [00:37:30] mom is anxious. I mean, that has an, that has an adaptive role in human development over millennia, right? Especially when you're r- when you're raising very young children, as moms are the primary attachment figures of, uh... [00:37:45] It's, it's okay for, for a mom to be anxious, as long as the dad, um, stays strong.

[00:37:51] Johann: And, and at the same time, I would, I would say to the mom that, uh, uh, well, resilience is, it's being, um, [00:38:00] afraid and still choosing to do what is good, and those th- things are compatible, and that's real freedom. It's very liberating when you realize, you know, regardless of how I feel, I can do what is good, and that is the gift of free will that, [00:38:15] that we have been given that animals don't have, who just necessarily respond according to their emotions.

[00:38:21] Johann: We can transcend that.

[00:38:23] Stephanie: Delivering some truth bombs. I've seen similar dynamics. Yeah, and [00:38:30] oftentimes there's some kind of marital dysfunction there, right? Where, where you feel that mom and dad are both bringing an important part of the picture. Mom sees and feels her piece, Dad sees and feels his piece, but somehow the two pieces, the [00:38:45] perspective that they both bring, are not working together cohesively enough to find the truth of, of what that kid needs to be raised with.

[00:38:55] Stephanie: Let's take a break, and then when we come back-- So we led with [00:39:00] video games. Um, and then, you know, we still need to talk about, uh, social media, pornography, and just device use in general with teenagers, and why it is that you have the stance that parents should never give their teen a device, or [00:39:15] as I like to call it, the candy bin.

[00:39:17] Johann: Your

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[00:39:56] Stephanie: So we talked about video games, which [00:40:00] are the main culprit for boys, and as we discussed, they can affect motivation in a way that contributes to failure to launch.

[00:40:10] Stephanie: And, you know, before we move on to the next topic, I just wanna say if you're a parent of a [00:40:15] younger boy, I really want you to think about what failure to launch families are actually facing. 'Cause it's, it's one of those things that's so easy to disregard until you're there, but once you're there, it's such a massive [00:40:30] problem.

[00:40:31] Stephanie: Um, I, I, I don't mean to fearmonger, I just mean to really visualize the different possible outcomes for your son and think about what you could do to facilitate any given trajectory or to, you [00:40:45] know, steer him off of a trajectory that he might be at risk for. Because real life is hard, right? And, and if you give, if you give away something that feels better than real life, then you're gonna give a [00:41:00] kid a, a path where he never learns to face real life.

[00:41:03] Stephanie: So, uh, just something I wanted to say because I, I've met families years down that path who really wish that they'd done things differently at an earlier [00:41:15] age. Um, but let's move on to social media. Like you said, it's, it's video games are the main culprit for the boys, social media is the main culprit for the girls.

[00:41:24] Stephanie: What are your thoughts on social media?

[00:41:25] Johann: It's probably the worst time to get social media is in [00:41:30] the teenage years for, for a girl when identity is forming, when we know that girls are so susceptible to judgment by others and peer pressure and social evaluation. In fact, you know, your, your specialty, which [00:41:45] I really respect and admire you for, rapid onset gender dysphoria, is particularly, uh, almost exclusively a problem for teenage girls, right?

[00:41:55] Johann: Which is such a, uh ... Because precisely of the social [00:42:00] contagion effect, one person in a friend group endorses an eating disorder or, uh, gender dysphoria, and then all of a sudden the other person, the other girls in that friend group also endorse it. Uh, so [00:42:15] and it's very particular to that population. Now imagine, um, you're a girl who's spending 36 hours a week on social media, which is the average amount of social media that a teen- [00:42:30] teenage girl in the US uses.

[00:42:32] Stephanie: I'm sorry, 36 hours a week is the average amount of hours a teenage girl in America spends on social media?

[00:42:44] Johann: Yeah. [00:42:45] Yeah. So it's like, uh-

[00:42:46] Stephanie: Ooh ...

[00:42:47] Johann: about ha- half of girls spend that much time. Um, and then half of, half of girls say that they're on it almost constantly.

[00:42:57] Stephanie: And so what are we-

[00:42:58] Johann: Or on the internet on almost

[00:42:59] Stephanie: constantly

[00:42:59] Stephanie: what are we... [00:43:00] On the internet, yeah. I mean, 36 hours-

[00:43:02] Johann: But 36 hours is just for social media, yeah.

[00:43:04] Stephanie: Oh my goodness. And so what all are we counting as social media? Would we count YouTube?

[00:43:10] Johann: No, I don't, I don't, I don't believe so. I don't, I don't know what, how this study defined it, [00:43:15] but, uh, I mean, I definitely wouldn't count YouTube- Okay

[00:43:18] Johann: even though there's a social element to it.

[00:43:20] Stephanie: Okay. Wow. That's, I mean, that's a whole- that's a full-time job.

[00:43:24] Johann: Exactly, yeah. Yeah. I

[00:43:26] Stephanie: mean, talk about the time you could be spending on other things. Like, what could you [00:43:30] do with 36 hours a week? Okay, please tell us more.

[00:43:33] Johann: Yeah. That's, that's exactly how I, how I pitch it.

[00:43:35] Johann: It's a full... Yeah, the average American girl has a full-time job on social media curating her own image, right? And then looking at these highly [00:43:45] curated images and lifestyles of, of other people. Um, you can't even say her peers, because in many cases they don't even know who these other people are. Uh, so they're being...

[00:43:57] Johann: The, the image of themselves and of [00:44:00] what a teenager life should look like is being determined by, uh, something that's highly, um, artificial and, and superf- like, literally superficial. Like, superficial comes from the Latin superface, on the [00:44:15] face. Like, it's just skin deep. That's all they're see- all you're seeing is the person's image.

[00:44:21] Johann: Uh, you're missing the most important aspects of them. So it turns out that social media is actually antisocial, that there's [00:44:30] a bidirectional relationship between social media use and loneliness, that the more social media you use, the, you use, the lonelier you feel. So that was a study in the Association for Psychological Sciences.

[00:44:43] Johann: And then of course, the lonelier you feel, the more [00:44:45] social media you use, so it's a classic vicious cycle. Uh-

[00:44:49] Stephanie: Subtraction soup. Do you remember reading The Phantom Tollbooth when you were a kid?

[00:44:53] Johann: Oh, no. But I, I think I, I feel like I should go back and read it.

[00:44:58] Stephanie: I, I can't remember how old I [00:45:00] was when I read The Phantom Tollbooth, but there's this thing called subtraction soup, and the more you eat, the hungrier you get.

[00:45:08] Johann: Exactly. That is, that is such a good image So, uh, [00:45:15] you know, on the one hand, even when the content is in itself, uh, innocuous, uh, it i- it, it is still damaging to the child's development because, um, because it's very [00:45:30] superficial. But on the other hand, much of the conte- content is not neutral, as you know.

[00:45:36] Johann: Much of the content is actually, like, leading people to depression and suicide. Sometimes even, like, [00:45:45] basically guiding people, uh, to suicide. Um, or, uh, you know, guiding people directly and indirectly to gender dysphoria, uh, because of the, because of what's, um, available in the content, [00:46:00] which tends to be more extreme, right?

[00:46:02] Johann: That the more extreme content is what gets the clicks.

[00:46:05] Stephanie: And I did wanna just put a little asterisk on what you said about how ROGD is mostly girls. Um, I, [00:46:15] I don't wanna say that this is good news and it- It's like, how, how do we put this? It, it's not good news. It's not... But, you know, people were talking about for a long time how teenage girls are the [00:46:30] most vulnerable cohort to social contagion and always have been, and why is anyone surprised, uh, at what's going on with ROGD?

[00:46:39] Stephanie: You know, we've been talking about this for a decade now, more or less as a society. Um, uh, [00:46:45] the bad news is the boys are falling behind, right? So it, it would be good news if the number of girls were on to the decline and that's why the ratio we're looking like it was shifting from 80/20 to 50/50. I don't know that it's actually on the decline for girls.

[00:46:58] Stephanie: I do know that it's on the rise for boys. [00:47:00] Um, but it's a different profile, right? The girls, you're right, it's socially mediated largely through peers and social media, Tumblr, Discord, Reddit. Well, Discord and Reddit are more boy-coded, but, um, [00:47:15] you know, Tumblr, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, Pinterest. Um, for the boys, it's often appearing later.

[00:47:26] Stephanie: It's more zero to 60. [00:47:30] It's more you didn't hear anything from your very boyish son until suddenly he's 18 and now he's on hormones. They don't communicate about it. Um, for boys, it's more driven by video games and pornography, right? The other two [00:47:45] things that you're here to talk about, right? So it's, it's a combination of the social element of these video games where they're experimenting with female avatars and they're living in this virtual world where they're choosing the female avatars 'cause they're sexy, right?

[00:47:58] Stephanie: And 'cause they, they, they're tr- it's, [00:48:00] it's a target location error, right? It's auto- it's narcissistic autogynophi- aphilia in a, in a way, um, to a degree. It doesn't mean that's their whole personality. Um, w- and then there's the pornographic element, which we'll [00:48:15] get into later. But I did just wanna say that, you know, unfortunately We're, we're seeing a rise in boys, at least anecdotally, um, people like me are seeing a rise in the number of boys.

[00:48:25] Stephanie: And then some of the preliminary research that, um, Lisa Littman is working on right [00:48:30] now, which she presented at Genspect in Albuquerque in 2025, um, seems to be backing that up. And then also, uh, if you go to detrans.ai, which was developed by a previous guest of this podcast, Peter James Stephen, [00:48:45] detrans.ai combs Reddit forums for information on the subject, and the data that you can get there is also backing up this idea that the boys are showing up later.

[00:48:55] Stephanie: They're, they're coming to the scene later in [00:49:00] time and also at a later age than the girls because boys develop later than girls. So just wanted to share that unfortunate information.

[00:49:08] Johann: Yeah. Thanks for the update. And it do- it does seem to, it does seem to mirror the, uh, the pornography [00:49:15] statistics in which previously boys were clearly the predominant users or consumers of pornography.

[00:49:22] Johann: Now more and more so girls are catching up, not because boys are using it less, because girls are using it more. [00:49:30] So just to give you a sense of the scope, one, uh, pornography website, uh, it's-- I- I think it is the biggest one, um, reported 46 billion, um, users in one year. [00:49:45] And so obviously, like, someone's using...

[00:49:47] Johann: people are using it multiple times 'cause... But that- that's, uh, you know, eight, eight visits per-- it's about, like, eight visits per every person on, on the planet Earth, right? Um, so, [00:50:00] uh, at the time that this was reported, um, it's owned by a Canadian private equity company called Ethical, uh, Capital Partners, believe it or not.

[00:50:10] Stephanie: That's ironic.

[00:50:11] Johann: This is, this is, this is one... Yeah. This is one, [00:50:15] one pornography, uh, company, you know. Um, so this is-- it's highly prevalent, unfortunately. And I think-- I believe it, it is the biggest problem facing, uh, young people, especially, um, boys today. [00:50:30] And I say that from the experience of mentoring adolescent boys, again, for 16 years.

[00:50:36] Johann: Like, that- that's why I'm so invested in this issue. That's how I got into this issue to begin with, because I'm trying to raise these... how-- I'm [00:50:45] trying to instill, uh, character in these guys, help them to, uh, live a life of virtue, help them to become the best fathers, friends, citizens, professionals that they can be, have their own families one day.

[00:50:59] Johann: [00:51:00] And I just realized that, man, I'm just... we're just spinning our wheels here. If we, if we don't address this hi- highly prevalent addiction that people from even the best families fall into, uh, families that [00:51:15] are intact, that have family dinner every day, that go to church every week, uh, the, that have very strong values.

[00:51:25] Johann: And in fact, the, the boy himself has very strong values, and he [00:51:30] even knows that pornography is wrong, and it's, it's even against his, uh, ethical code in his religion. And which he acknowledges, and he wants to stop, but he, he can't stop. Uh, and then he ends up [00:51:45] being, you know, suicidal as a result. Uh, I mean, this pattern is, uh, unfortunately too common And it's, it's parents find it extremely surprising.

[00:51:57] Johann: There's a, there's a great deal of, uh, [00:52:00] naivety unfortunately, which contributes to this, that it's not gonna be-- My, my son is not going to fall into it. Well, I can... You know, my son's a good kid. I can give him a smartphone. Well, he was a good kid, but, you know, once that smartphone enters his hands, [00:52:15] it, it's only a matter of time.

[00:52:17] Johann: Um, and I've ta- I've talked to boys like very candidly about this and even in group settings. I went to-- I gave a talk to some high schoolers in Austin. Again, from these are exceptional-- I work with very [00:52:30] exceptional young people. I'm, I'm very grateful for that. Uh, and I asked them like, "Well, how, how many of your friends do you think are addicted to pornography?"

[00:52:40] Johann: Uh, "50%?" "More." "60?" "More." [00:52:45] "70? 80?" We landed on 85. They, they, you know, they think 85% of their friends from conversations with them. I gave another talk to another group in another city and asked the At a certain point, I just [00:53:00] said, "Well, maybe this isn't a problem for you guys though, right?" Like, um, is-- do you guys know anybody who, who doesn't struggle with this?

[00:53:08] Johann: And they, they all, they know each other very well. They all just, uh, pointed to one guy that [00:53:15] in, in this whole friend group of like very, very, again, very good young men, like o- only one of them doesn't, doesn't struggle with this, right? So it's very common, and unfortunately the consequences last for, in many cases, [00:53:30] decades.

[00:53:31] Johann: Uh, so it, it becomes intergenerational where the young person could, could have been exposed actually through, uh, someone in an older generation, but then as a result, now they're, [00:53:45] now they're addicted, and then they may inadvertently hand it on to someone, uh, below them. Um, so this is where I say, look, prevention is so much more effective.

[00:53:55] Johann: It's so much easier. Uh, you can't protect your child from [00:54:00] everything, but at least y- you don't have to be the one who's directly responsible for giving them that device that, that got them hooked.

[00:54:08] Stephanie: I talk to parents who think that there is a personality trait [00:54:15] or any other fact about their son that's going to render him immune or less likely to fall into this rabbit hole, and I, I wanna pick those myths apart.

[00:54:26] Stephanie: I think you've started to, right? You've painted the picture of the [00:54:30] conscientious, the good kid, right? Um, you know, some parents seem to think that their son who's more sensitive, who wouldn't harm a fly, that that personality trait [00:54:45] makes him immune. And I see the smile creeping on your face, the knowing smile.

[00:54:51] Stephanie: Tell us what goes through your- The opposite Tell us more. Well,

[00:54:54] Johann: well let me tell you, uh, uh, this is a very dark story unfortunately. [00:55:00] Um, so I, I recently attended the Arc Conference in London, and I was contacted by, uh, the head of a school in Uganda. And I, I s- I spoke with this lady, [00:55:15] and she, she went on for 10 minutes telling me about all the destruction that technology is doing to the students in her school.

[00:55:25] Johann: And she gave the example of a, of a boy just perfectly [00:55:30] described, shy, doesn't talk to a lot of people. You don't really know what's going on inside of him, but he's very nice. He's very kind. And he, then he, his, his academic performance was declining, seemed sadder than usual. [00:55:45] Uh, she, she eventually discovered that he was on an app that connects young boys with older women, uh, for sexual purposes, right?

[00:55:58] Johann: And I know that's [00:56:00] very dark, and that's why I, I don't like talking about it. I don't even like thinking about it, frankly. But that's part of the reason why this evil proliferates so much, is because, uh, so many people are ignorant. Um, so I'd say, look, parents, like it is, it's [00:56:15] time to wake up. This is a seriously dark issue that the world has not faced, um, and you can, you can protect your child from it.

[00:56:24] Johann: At least you can do your part.

[00:56:26] Stephanie: Let's get into why it's almost the opposite, [00:56:30] right? Because I think that if I can try to represent the cognitive error that parents are making, I mean, partly it's come-- it comes from emotion, right? Wishful thinking, that not my son, not my sweet kid, [00:56:45] right? He would never do that.

[00:56:46] Stephanie: So partly it's the parent's own biases affecting their thinking. But also, as they're thinking this through, "Would my son be vulnerable to that?" Um, the answer is of course yes, because he's a boy, [00:57:00] and it's one of the most addictive things on the planet for specifically young men, right? Um, but let's think through why you say it's almost the opposite for the sweet, shy, [00:57:15] sensitive, conscientious kid.

[00:57:19] Stephanie: What would you tell a parent about that?

[00:57:21] Johann: So, uh, on, on a philosophical level, um, I, I think we can look at persons as being designed [00:57:30] for relationships, relationship. And the deepest drive we have, the deepest desire of our heart is intimacy with other persons. Uh, whether that's-- and it's a variety of relation.

[00:57:41] Johann: It could be friendship, could be parent-child, it could [00:57:45] be spousal. So it, it doesn't have to be sexual, but that, that is one, uh, one manifestation, which is, in the proper context, very healthy. It can be the relationship between, uh, someone and God. [00:58:00] Um, but in the end, like that is the deepest desire, is this deep, is this intimacy.

[00:58:05] Johann: And, uh, quiet people, more sensitive They actually may even experience this desire more deeply, but at the same [00:58:15] time, they're not able to satisfy it, uh, because, you know, at that age, very con- confused. It's scary to talk to girls, uh, in person. Um, so this is a shortcut to getting it. And it's-- [00:58:30] there's a, an ancient adage that the corruption of the best is the worst.

[00:58:35] Johann: If you have someone who's extremely bright and they turn their powers to evil, they're gonna be more effective than if they were not as intelligent. The reason that [00:58:45] pornography is so harmful is because it's based on a very, very high good, uh, which is that intimacy of, of persons revealing, uh, the depth, uh, of a person.[00:59:00]

[00:59:00] Johann: But it perverts it in that it's, it's actually not a real relationship. It doesn't require commitment and responsibility, uh, which is the proper context for sexual relations. Um, [00:59:15] so the person is getting the, the attractive aspects, uh, without any of the, any of the demand, uh, that would be, uh, that would be required in nature.

[00:59:27] Johann: Um, which is why, [00:59:30] uh, quiet people are, are more eas- more susceptible to it I don't wanna make it seem like, hey, if you see a quiet person, like you should you should be suspect them. But, uh, anyways, I think I explained my point.

[00:59:42] Stephanie: No, I think that's very well said, and [00:59:45] then, and then that person's conscientiousness can create more inner tension between their idealized identity and their actual behavior.

[00:59:58] Stephanie: And you as an OCD [01:00:00] specialist probably know a lot about what happens when a conscientious and neurotic person has an unresolved inner tension between their aspirational idealized self, so a boy who thinks [01:00:15] of himself as being very respectful of women, for example, um, and some unwanted behavior such as c- compulsive pornography use, which he knows is disrespectful to women.

[01:00:25] Johann: Exactly. Yeah. There's this, there's this inner conflict. Um, [01:00:30] so-- And it can lead people, again, and people I've worked with in the past, that, uh, eventually they become suicidal because of this, like, dissonance between the two parts of themselves, that they, they just want it to end, but they, they don't know how, [01:00:45] and they feel like they've tried everything.

[01:00:46] Johann: In fact, usually people have not actually tried very much, but part of the consequence of an addiction is it, it, it's like a catch-22. It makes us, uh, less creative in problem-solving the [01:01:00] way out of the, the way out of the addiction.

[01:01:02] Stephanie: Because the addiction is always there to numb the pain of the cognitive dissonance or the emotional struggle.

[01:01:08] Johann: Yeah. And people confuse, um, like suffering for effort. [01:01:15] They think that, "Well, I, you know, I've suffered so much, um, because of this struggle," but they haven't actually put intelligent effort into it.

[01:01:23] Stephanie: That's such a good point, and it's reminding me of things I've heard parents tell me that their kids have [01:01:30] said Like, for example, parents have told me that their daughter has said, "I tried being a girl."

[01:01:37] Stephanie: It's like, okay, well, what does that mean you tried being a girl, right? Coming from a biological realist standpoint, uh, you- [01:01:45] you've never not been a girl. You don't have to try to be a girl. But this is what I do in my practice, right? I help parents unpack. When your daughter says, "I've tried being a girl," what does she mean?

[01:01:56] Stephanie: Does she mean she tried fitting in with the other girls? Does [01:02:00] she mean she tried dressing a certain way and looking in the mirror and telling herself she looked pretty, and she never got around of the feeling pretty part? Does she mean she tried convincing herself it would be possible to adopt the mannerisms of the girls with more feminine behaviors than herself, and she just kept [01:02:15] deciding that she fell short and she'd never, she'd never make it there?

[01:02:18] Stephanie: I mean, what does it mean when your daughter says, "I've tried being a girl," right? And, and, and essentially the, the rest of that sentence is something along the lines of, "And it didn't work for me, and I just couldn't do it, and [01:02:30] it just, it's not right for me," right? "I tried being a girl." Usually, when we unpack these kinds of statements, and I've heard lots of different variations on them from boys and girls alike through their parents, uh, I think you just nailed it, right?

[01:02:42] Stephanie: There's a difference between suffering and effort. [01:02:45] What that girl's really saying is, "I've suffered a lot over my fixation on gender identity. Therefore, I believe that I've made an effort in the way that my parent tells me I should have been making an effort. And I've come up [01:03:00] short, and therefore my premature conclusion is right.

[01:03:02] Stephanie: My conclusion that I'm not meant to be a girl, that I'm meant to be a boy, that all of this was, you know, God got it wrong," or something like that.

[01:03:09] Johann: Yeah. Well said. Yeah, maybe you could look at it as difference between, [01:03:15] uh, like passive, uh, pa- passively engaging the challenge, uh, versus actively engaging it, uh, that they've...

[01:03:22] Johann: Kind of it's like an external locus of control. The challenge has been imposed on them rather than internally taking the responsibility of, [01:03:30] well, okay, how am I gonna navigate this?

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[01:04:05] Stephanie: Again, use code SOMETHERAPIST at lisamustard.com/podcourses. I'll include that link and coupon in the show notes for your convenience. [01:04:15] All right, now back to the show. So we talked a little bit about all three, about video games, social media, and pornography. And tell us about your Your ultimate stance on what [01:04:30] parents...

[01:04:30] Stephanie: So if, if you had the opportunity to advise a family listening right now, and let's say they have kids ages six, eight, and 10, and nobody has a smartphone or personal device, or n- let's say, let's say there's a, a shared iPad. [01:04:45] It's the family iPad. It's the same thing dad uses to pull up recipes in the kitchen, and they occasionally hand it over to the kids to play, you know, a game or YouTube or something, right?

[01:04:57] Stephanie: Let's say that's where this family is at with regard to [01:05:00] devices. They've never given any of their kids a personal device. Um, what advice would you give that family today about how to plan for the years ahead?

[01:05:09] Johann: Yeah. First of all, if, if that's the limit of your devices, I congratulate you, 'cause you're better than most.

[01:05:14] Johann: [01:05:15] A- and at the same time Just to be aware of, of the dangers, uh, that... I mean, a s- an iPad is basically a smartphone that you can't put in your pocket. So it is better than a smartphone in that regard. Um, but it, [01:05:30] it, it's functionally, it's like almost identical. Uh, you can't make calls with an iPad, but most children aren't making calls with their smartphone either.

[01:05:38] Johann: It's like ironically, like the one feature that's not used is the phone feature, which would actually be probably one of the healthier features [01:05:45] that are, that are being used. Uh, and the... I mean, the, the internet is like a bad neighborhood, that if you're in it long enough, you're gonna be exposed to something that's, uh, you, you shouldn't be.

[01:05:57] Johann: Um, I mean, I worked with, I, I worked with a, [01:06:00] with a young man who dropped out of college because of a pornography addiction, uh, which started because of, uh, a Kindle that had been lying around. Like it was, um,

[01:06:14] Stephanie: uh- Kindle? I [01:06:15] didn't even know Kindles could do that.

[01:06:16] Johann: Well, well, it w- it was just, it was literary pornography.

[01:06:20] Johann: It wasn't even videos and pictures.

[01:06:22] Stephanie: The stuff that girls typically fall into.

[01:06:25] Johann: I s- I suppose so. Yeah. So yeah. Uh, [01:06:30] so if a, if a, you know, if an e-reader can do that, then um, I mean, certainly an iPad can do, can do much worse than that. Um, so, and, and also, I mean, children are very clever. They're smarter. Uh, I mean, they just have higher [01:06:45] computational power than adults.

[01:06:47] Johann: Um, they have more neuronal connections, right? So they're going to be able-- They're going to be exploring it and, uh, be able to access harmful content. Um, so anyways, just, [01:07:00] uh, kind of an aside on, uh, uh, on the iPad issue. But yeah, I would just advocate for, "Hey, l- let's, let's choose real life. Let's choose to give your child the gift that you can only give once in their entire lives, which is the gift of a real [01:07:15] childhood."

[01:07:16] Johann: Um, doing the things that I had mentioned previously, wholesome leisure, unsupervised free play, and make your job easier by saying no to toxic screens and never giving your child a smartphone. So a- [01:07:30] as you said, as you said or implied earlier, um, par- parents make this harder on themselves than they need, than it needs to be.

[01:07:37] Johann: I used to think that- I, in order to help people, I need to be an expert in technology. I need to be expert in all these devices and all these [01:07:45] apps and, uh, and all these different types of social media, many of which I've never personally used. Then I realized, no, no, actually the solution is very simple.

[01:07:54] Johann: Never give your child a smartphone. Uh, where it becomes complicated when the door is [01:08:00] open as a possibility. You know, hey, you're not mature enough now, but maybe later, maybe when you're 16, maybe when you start driving, when you're 18, when you go to college. But none, none of these numbers are magical. Uh, [01:08:15] ultimately to use a smartphone well, what it takes is good habits, and that is not determined by, by years of life.

[01:08:24] Johann: Uh, that's determined by, um, well, hey, does, does your child plan [01:08:30] his own schedule? Does... How do-- Does he have order in his backpack, locker, room? Does he wake himself up on time? Does he go to bed at a reasonable hour? Does he do chores and schoolwork without being asked? Uh, does he follow through [01:08:45] on what he says he will do?

[01:08:47] Johann: Does he not only take care of himself, but take care of the family and his younger siblings and, um, even cook meals around the house? There, there are many ways to determine a child's level of [01:09:00] maturity, and that, that is what's required to be able to use a device well. Again, if most, if most adults are not capable of using a device well, how is a child, even an 18-year-old, um, like 18 is a magic number [01:09:15] in our, in our society.

[01:09:16] Johann: Parents often think like, "Okay, well, I have to give it to them when they're 18." But college students are notorious for making extremely bad decisions and spending their, uh, [01:09:30] much of their time, um, under the influence of drugs and alcohol, sleeping in and neglecting their responsibilities, which are putting them into $100,000 of debt over the next four years.

[01:09:43] Johann: Uh, is that really the [01:09:45] age to entrust someone with a highly addictive device that's only gonna make their, their college life, their college duties, I should say, responsibilities more difficult to carry out? Uh, I, I think not. Sometimes people ask me, "Well, [01:10:00] what do you think is, is an appropriate age?" Uh, well, again, it's not dependent on age, but if I were to pick an age, um, the number that comes to mind is 30 or 35.

[01:10:13] Johann: Bring it.[01:10:15]

[01:10:17] Johann: I think c- consider that the brain doesn't finish developing until 25 to 32 years old. That, and the last part to develop is the prefrontal cortex, the judgment center of the brain. [01:10:30] So the,

[01:10:30] Stephanie: the very thing- Well, at this point we're not, we're not talking about parents giving it to their kids then. Yeah, exactly.

[01:10:34] Stephanie: Yeah. We're talking about a young person-

[01:10:36] Johann: Yeah ...

[01:10:37] Stephanie: earning it and paying for it themselves. I-

[01:10:40] Johann: if you're, if you're mature enough to use a smartphone well, you're mature [01:10:45] enough to pay for it yourself It's like, it's like there's this view that children have a right to have a smartphone. Like, how can I deprive my child of a smartphone when he's going off to college in the world?

[01:10:56] Johann: Well, yeah, it turns out that for all of human history until [01:11:00] 15 years ago, no one had a smartphone, right? And, and now all of a sudden it's, it's a necessity to stay alive. Uh, so anyways, it's kind of goes back to my theory that we live in a dystopia, which we can, [01:11:15] we can get more into. But for people to see that, look, it's, it's not, not only is it not necessary, but that in fact there is a higher life out there, and I, I really hope people can experience it because right now we [01:11:30] live in a new dark age, and unless people, um, experience this personal liberation of interior peace and joy and the life of the mind and real personal relationships that are not mediated, [01:11:45] uh, by a screen, um, then they're gonna, then they will think that life requires a smartphone.

[01:11:51] Stephanie: I think the principle you can have X, fill in the blank, when you can [01:12:00] pay for it yourself actually works for a lot of things because, you know, starting at I think 16 in a lot of states, maybe earlier in some places, kids, if they want, can [01:12:15] go out and get a job or they can... I mean, these days anyone can start a business online.

[01:12:23] Stephanie: Um, and so if let's say there is a family desktop computer, [01:12:30] it lives in the living room, there's no privacy on that computer, everyone can see what you're doing, it's shared, um, I think in that family there's nothing necessarily stopping a kid from teaching themselves the skills to start [01:12:45] an online business, and maybe the parents have some parameters around, you know, no you may not consider, um, streaming on Twitch an online business, right?

[01:12:57] Stephanie: Which is like, [01:13:00] I, it's, it's scary how many young men like think that that's going to be their ticket in life. Like, people wanna watch me play video games online, that's how I'm going to live my [01:13:15] life. Um, but I mean, there, there's so much opportunity now for young people to I mean, there's nothing stopping your 12-year-old daughter from making bracelets that with your help she [01:13:30] posts on Etsy, right?

[01:13:30] Stephanie: And is anyone gonna buy them? Who knows. But, you know, can she do it as a learning opportunity? Yes. Or can she go with your help to the local arts and crafts fair in the summer and put up a booth and learn [01:13:45] from that experience? Yeah, like, there's nothing stopping young people from experimenting with a lot of different ways of expressing their creativity, and America's a pretty good place, and [01:14:00] this is a pretty good time, I think, with the latest technologies, um, given parental controls, given, you know, no privacy.

[01:14:11] Stephanie: Um, and I don't know if that's your position or if that's [01:14:15] mine, but I'm just thinking, like, motivation to make money is, is a good motivator for a lot of youth, especially if they have enough free [01:14:30] time away from screens to want things that aren't screen related. And this is another thing about motivation and how it gets affected by excessive device use, is what does your kid want, right?

[01:14:43] Stephanie: If your kid had [01:14:45] 100, 1,000, $10,000 right now, what would they spend it on? What I find when I'm talking to parents of trans-identified youth, a lot of them, their kids don't know what they would spend it on, aside from Something [01:15:00] like a double mastectomy, which they, you know, casually call something like top surgery, right?

[01:15:04] Stephanie: And, and so it's that narrow focus, but it's like, okay, so what about, what about travel? What about adventure? What about concert [01:15:15] tickets? Or, I don't know, trying hang gliding? I mean, th- there's a big world out there to explore, and I think that your teenager should probably want things in life that cost money, should have [01:15:30] dreams of real experiences, real places to go or, or things to try that they would be excited to be able to spend money on.

[01:15:39] Stephanie: And if they don't, I'm curious why not, right? I'm curious if their motivational system has been [01:15:45] completely hacked by video games, social media, pornography, and other addictive screen things. If your kid has that natural motivation where they've always wanted to travel to a certain place, they've always wanted to [01:16:00] try a certain adventure sport that you have to be, you know, have a certain amount of money and fitness to be able to try, um, then that, that's something for them to work toward.

[01:16:12] Stephanie: And adolescence is a great time to start dreaming [01:16:15] big in th- in those ways, and to have your parents help imagining, "Okay, how could we actually help you work toward that goal?" And then that's a motivator to find ways of earning money, you know, whether it's volunteering to [01:16:30] wash your neighbor's car or mow their lawn or walk their dog or, you know, lifeguarding at your local pool or whatever it might be.

[01:16:39] Johann: Exactly. It's very, it's very good for kids to be hungry in that sense, not have [01:16:45] everything they need. Uh, and, uh, so kind of analogously to that, if they also don't have the technology in their house, they'll be hungry for entertainment in other ways. That's when they'll start re- if you have a bunch of books in your house and there's no [01:17:00] technology, eventually you're gonna get bored enough to pick up a book and start reading, go outside, uh, kick, kick a soccer ball around, learn how to skateboard.

[01:17:09] Johann: And those are things that are all things that I did as a kid because there was nothing el- I learned how to cook. I'm much [01:17:15] better cook than most, uh, most

[01:17:16] Stephanie: guys. How old were you when you started learning to cook?

[01:17:19] Johann: Probably like 10 years old or something like that. So, you know, there was, there was... This was when Food Network, like, started becoming popular, and it's very easy.

[01:17:27] Johann: And n- and now there's so many res- so many free [01:17:30] resources. Play lear- you can learn how to play an instrument very easily these days through free resources.

[01:17:36] Stephanie: Yeah. Those are, those are all good things. When there is some amount of device use- Parents who are going [01:17:45] to allow that but have limits need to remember that there's, there's a bit of brain shifting gears, right?

[01:17:53] Stephanie: And, and so what you can get in the in-between spaces is this attitude of, "I'm bored, entertain [01:18:00] me, tell me what to do, tell me what you expect me to be doing if not the screen, because I think the screen is my default. I think in the absence of something else that you're telling me I need to be doing right now, I should be able to go to s- the screen.

[01:18:14] Stephanie: Why? There's [01:18:15] nothing happening," right? And, and y- and kids have to get through that, and parents have to get through that, right? If your limit is, "No, you've had your half hour Uh, the message you might be able, you might [01:18:30] be willing to offer some suggestions, but there also needs to be that, you know, anything except what's off limits, and letting them be in that free-floating anxiety until they settle into, "I'm at [01:18:45] home," you know, "What sparks my interest," right?

[01:18:50] Stephanie: Until that creativity comes back online, there can be an awkward period, and I find some parents aren't willing to get through that awkwardness, or they feel like they [01:19:00] have to justify the limit, right? If they can't say, "Well, you need to be doing X, Y, or Z right now," then it's, it's again open to negotiation, right?

[01:19:08] Stephanie: The kid can say, "Well, why shouldn't I be on my Switch?" Right? Or, "Why shouldn't I be watching YouTube Shorts? [01:19:15] What else do you have for me to do?" Or, "I'm tired," right? I'm, or, "I, I helped you with the groceries. I'm tired now. I just wanna..." Okay. You know, and they see us doing that, right? As adults, right? They see us taking a break, looking on our phone, even though half the time [01:19:30] when, when we adults are doing it, it's, like, actually, like, taking care of things that need to be taken care of.

[01:19:33] Stephanie: But that doesn't necessarily mean that that's what they're seeing, right? They're not seeing us working. They're seeing us appearing distracted from being at home. So I think it's partly a, like you were [01:19:45] saying earlier, it's a parental distress tolerance, uh, issue, a parental, you know, willingness to sit through that free-floating anxiety, hold that boundary, and let kids get to the other side where, again, the creativity needs to come back online.

[01:19:59] Johann: [01:20:00] One of my favorite success stories, this was a high schooler I had mentored who made a big mistake, and his parents took away all technology, his smartphone, everything, which is de- and, uh, which is devastating for a child. And they homeschooled, and they took him out of school and homeschooled [01:20:15] him. I mean, that, if, for most children, they think that, that their life is over at that point, right?

[01:20:19] Johann: No external contact, basically. I asked him several months later, like, "Hey, what was that experience like?" And he said for the first couple months, [01:20:30] anytime he didn't have anything to do, he would think, "I'm bored." Like, normally, if I'm bored and don't have anything to do, I just take out my phone and start scrolling.

[01:20:38] Johann: Then after a couple months, something flipped, and when he didn't have anything to [01:20:45] do, he would think to himself, "I'm just relaxing." That's the liberation of the mind that can take place once we free ourself from distractions.

[01:20:53] Stephanie: Well said. Well, I feel like we covered a lot of ground. Do you have any, uh, any final thoughts?

[01:20:58] Stephanie: Any last words of wisdom?

[01:20:59] Johann: [01:21:00] Well, I really enjoyed speaking with you. Um, it is hard to... So the four takeaways that I give to parents is embrace your parental authority, never give your child a smartphone, build up real life, and then find one friend in this battle, 'cause it is very [01:21:15] hard to do this by yourself.

[01:21:16] Johann: And if, if you don't give your child toxic screen use, they might-- and, and they don't, you don't give them a smartphone, they might be one of the only ones that they know like that. Um, so it's helpful to find one friend to support you in [01:21:30] this whose children can be friends with your children, so they're not alone.

[01:21:35] Johann: Um, so that's what I would say. I, I enjoyed talking with you. I, I really, uh, enjoyed talking on this subject, um, and I've been doing [01:21:45] so nationally now for the last couple years. So if people have a community that would benefit from it, uh, I'm, I'm happy to, to speak to them. Uh, and it-- 'cause it is very inspiring to see parents make that decision and [01:22:00] have that...

[01:22:01] Johann: It's like someone's given them permission to be the parent. A-and then hearing the success stories are, are very encouraging that, "I got-- after your talk, I took away my daughter's [01:22:15] smartphone, and she complained, she cried. It was very difficult at first. But a few weeks went by, a couple months went by, now I feel like I have my daughter back.

[01:22:25] Johann: She's more engaging in family life. She's nicer to her siblings. She [01:22:30] doesn't run away from the dinner table as soon as she's done eating." And, and for me that's worth it because I think there's few things in the universe more beautiful than a loving family.

[01:22:42] Stephanie: Well said. Oh, I did wanna [01:22:45] ask, what would you say is non-toxic screen use?

[01:22:50] Johann: Yeah, good question. I mean, we're using screens right now, right? I'm looking at this laptop. I suppose you have a laptop as well. Um, users who are listening to this are probably [01:23:00] using a screen almost certainly. Um, so screen use can be positive, it can be neutral, it can be negative, toxic. So I'm not, I'm not against all forms of screen use.

[01:23:14] Johann: I'm not-- I don't even have [01:23:15] a blanket ban on, on smartphones. Uh, I think for most people they do more harm than good. Probably most people would benefit from not having a smartphone. Um, but if you're running your own business, it's helpful. It's very convenient to have a smartphone. I have a [01:23:30] smartphone, but I don't really use...

[01:23:31] Johann: I, I don't keep it on me, which is how I avoid being addicted to it. I check my messages like once or twice a day. Uh, so, uh, not all screen use is, is harmful. It can be very [01:23:45] positive. It can be very helpful for our lives if we know how to use it. But again, the corruption of the best is the worst. If you have something that is so powerful and then don't have the ability to utilize it correctly, uh, it can destroy us.

[01:23:59] Johann: And [01:24:00] part of the reason why I advise parents to To be so, um, uh, protective and circumspect about their child's use of these technologies is so that in the future when they do have a response- a lot of responsibility, [01:24:15] they do-- can have the potential to use it well and use it for the good, and that will maximize their impact on Earth.

[01:24:22] Johann: Uh, but they can only do that if they've avoided being sucked into the addiction at a younger age.

[01:24:27] Stephanie: For families, I'm curious about [01:24:30] some examples like, like a family movie night, right? Where it's like, okay, Friday, we're, we're making popcorn, we're all snuggling together on the couch. We're... Like a shared experience that feels healthy.

[01:24:44] Stephanie: [01:24:45] And one more thing is like, what would you say to the naturally techy kid, the kid who's interested in technology, not just as a passive consumer, but who's interested in things [01:25:00] like, you know, graphic design, 3D printing, um, learning to code, right? There's, there are so many skills that a kid could learn in adolescence, which, [01:25:15] you know, properly harnessed could actually help them get ahead and be well-equipped to face certain things.

[01:25:22] Stephanie: And I'm curious what you would say to the family of the tech-inclined youth who has very active interests in things that they're [01:25:30] learning.

[01:25:30] Johann: Sure. I'll take each of those in tu- in turn. So family movie night can be very positive, and there's three things about it that, uh, stand out, are distinct from smartphone use.

[01:25:39] Johann: One, you're watching a movie on a TV. You can't touch the screen. You can't [01:25:45] manipulate it at will. You can't stop it, uh, whenever you're bored, uh, or typically y- and you don't. I mean, you're missing the experience of the movie. Um, so it does... You're, you're doing one task for two and a half hours. It does require more of you.[01:26:00]

[01:26:00] Johann: Uh, of course, it's less than reading a book, for instance, but it's much more than, than a smartphone. Two, it's, it's social, especially with your family. That's very positive. Um, and three, uh, ideally you would [01:26:15] pick content that is formative in itself and then that can lead to a discussion. There's a lot to be said in child development, uh, of having a storehouse of positive, wholesome images.

[01:26:28] Johann: This is called forming the [01:26:30] moral imagination, and good movies provide that, like "Lord of the Rings." You find noble characters that are attractive that you aspire to, and evil characters that y- you realize are repulsive So that's, that's the role of family movie night. [01:26:45] Uh, second point, what if you have a tech-savvy child?

[01:26:48] Johann: Uh, so I just came back from Ireland, met a father there. Uh, he was a pediatrician and also a strong father who I respect, and he did not give his [01:27:00] child, his teenage child, uh, equivalent of high school, a smartphone. But you know what? His... He helped his son, he facilitated his son's interest of building his own computer.

[01:27:12] Johann: His child built his own computer, [01:27:15] taught himself coding, and then built a computer for his younger sisters. Uh, also, not too long ago, went to, uh, a wedding of one of these boys who I knew in, you know, fifth grade, [01:27:30] and he and his brothers, very tech-savvy, uh, some of them have careers in tech right now. They were coding i- in high school, and this was, like, 10 years ago.

[01:27:43] Johann: Uh, [01:27:45] and they didn't have smartphones. And in fact, when they went to, uh, when they went to the store, or they had extremely limited use purposely, when they went to the store to get their phones, they said, "Okay, we, we want just this one, [01:28:00] like, coding app, and we don't want anything else. We don't want a browser.

[01:28:03] Johann: We don't want internet." And the, the guy at the store couldn't believe that a teenager is, is requesting this. Um, so it is compa- so being tech-savvy is compatible [01:28:15] with, uh, with having very restricted technology use. And in fact, it facilitates it because you're gonna be much less distracted, much more focused.

[01:28:24] Stephanie: All right. All good stuff. Well, Dr. Johann D'Souza, thanks so much for joining me [01:28:30] again. Let's talk about all the places people can find you. Are you still doing Virtuous Leaders podcast?

[01:28:34] Johann: I am doing that. I release weekly. And my main hub is, uh, my website, johandsouza.com. So that's where people can contact me, [01:28:45] um, if they wa- want to share this message with their, with their own communities or to get links to my other resources like my Substack, uh, or YouTube channel where I, I provide short videos to parents on saving their children from digital [01:29:00] destruction, um, or my podcast.

[01:29:01] Stephanie: Nice. And you have your book. Remind us the name and where people can find it. Yeah.

[01:29:06] Johann: Saving Teens from Toxic Screens. Again, if you go to the resources page on my website, you can see a

[01:29:13] Stephanie: link for that. Great. Well, we'll make sure all of that is in the [01:29:15] show notes. Thanks so much for joining me. It's been a pleasure as always.

[01:29:17] Johann: Thanks, Stephanie.

[01:29:20] Stephanie: Thank you for listening to You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist. If you enjoyed this episode, kindly take a moment to rate, review, share, [01:29:30] or comment on it using your platform of choice. And of course, please remember, podcasts are not therapy, and I'm not your therapist. Special thanks to Joey Pecoraro for this awesome theme song, Half Awake, and to [01:29:45] Pods by Nick for production.

[01:29:47] Stephanie: For help navigating the impact of the gender craze on your family, be sure to check out my program for parents, ROGD Repair. Any resource you heard mentioned on this show, [01:30:00] plus how to get in touch with me, can all be found in the notes and links below. Rain or shine, I hope you will step outside to breathe the air today.

[01:30:10] Stephanie: In the words of Max Ehrmann, "With all its sham, drudgery, and [01:30:15] broken dreams, it is still a beautiful [01:30:30] [01:30:45] world."