You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist

225. Will Dobud
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[00:00:00] Will: The story of how harmful screens are, even with the researchers that are much more expert than I am at population data, there really isn't a big there there about mental health and screens. Even when [00:00:15] meta-analyses or systematic reviews find that there's this correlation between youth mental health and screen time use or social media, the truth is the effects are so small, it's almost like not even worth publishing.[00:00:30]

[00:00:30] Announcer: You must be some kind of therapist?

[00:00:36] Stephanie: Today I'm welcoming back Dr. Will Dobud. He is a social worker, researcher, educator, and writer whose work has included outdoor therapy, [00:00:45] improving therapy outcomes for teenagers, and promoting safe, ethical practices in mental health. He previously appeared on this podcast in episode number 202, Label Mania: How Diagnosing Every Kid Is Backfiring on a Generation with [00:01:00] Will Dobud.

[00:01:00] Stephanie: Today we're going to talk about a different perspective on teens, technology, and schools. Dr. Will Dobud, welcome back to the show. Great to have you.

[00:01:08] Will: Great to be back. Thank you so much for inviting me back.

[00:01:10] Stephanie: So for context, although these episodes get spaced out to the [00:01:15] listener, for me, I tend to record two in one day sometimes, and my previous conversation that I just had, although li- listeners might have a different experience, was with Dr.

[00:01:26] Stephanie: Johann D'Souza, who I believe shifts the [00:01:30] Overton window pretty far in the Luddite direction when it comes to teens and technology. I would encourage listeners to check out that perspective for his argument as to why you should never give your [00:01:45] teenagers access to what he calls toxic screens. And I am inclined to agree with him on a lot of things, and honestly, that conversation prompted a pretty tense conversation with my husband over my lunch break between episodes [00:02:00] And so when I realized that my next conversation would be with Dr.

[00:02:05] Stephanie: Will Dobod, I thought, how fortunate, because we're going to look at the other edge of the frame around the Overton window when it comes to modern [00:02:15] discussions on teen and technolo- teens and technology. In our previous conversation, I noticed it, that Will had a more kind of lackadaisical approach to the teens, technology, and mental health conversation.

[00:02:29] Stephanie: [00:02:30] So although Dr. Dobod has not had a chance to hear my conversation with Dr. D'Souza, the listeners will get to hear both perspectives and decide for themselves what ideas make the most sense for your family, take what works for you, and leave the rest. [00:02:45] So Will, um, as like a general starting point, what is your stance on teens and screens?

[00:02:51] Will: I don't think the story and the narrative has, um, lived up to what the research says. So as [00:03:00] somebody who has worked outdoors with kids my entire adult life, like that has been my career, I don't like taking kids outside and seeing them glued to screens. Like I, I, I'd rather them participate, [00:03:15] communicate, be around each other.

[00:03:16] Will: But I think when, when my co-author Nevin and I, when we were writing Kids These Days, and the anxious generation was gaining all of this hype while we were finishing the book, and we have a, we have a chapter about [00:03:30] technology and the harms of technology, the, the, the stuff that's good about technology. Um, what, what I started realizing was, oh, th- this is actually not even an evidence-based kind [00:03:45] of discussion.

[00:03:46] Will: It's, it's sort of a feels right, but is it right discussion. And so even after the last time I was on, um, uh, on your podcast and some of the comments were, you know, "Well, Will clearly didn't read The Anxious [00:04:00] Generation," and I've got it right on my bookshelf right there with a lot of sticky notes in it. Um, and so what I thought is, is, is this something where I mean, I'll be, I'll be kind of blunt about it.

[00:04:13] Will: Do, do people care what [00:04:15] the evidence is, or is this a what feels right? Now, I totally agree with you that this should be a parent's decision. And so for me, one of the biggest ironies in my life is I think our [00:04:30] household followed all of Jonathan Haidt's rules. Like, we didn't give our kids a smartphone till they were 16.

[00:04:37] Will: Um, and that wasn't out of fear though. That was just, you can have a flip phone and then you can get social media when you... I mean, that [00:04:45] was more than 10 years ago. Um, so we followed most of the rules that he sort of laid out. It was really when it became about fear-mongering that really I got sort of, [00:05:00] th- this actually sounds like bullshit.

[00:05:02] Will: This, this, this actually doesn't add up really that much to me. And so before we hit record, I talked about a, uh, a graph that started circulating social media last week. I mean, and, and [00:05:15] graphs are the, are the best way to sell bullshit to people. They scare people, and more often than not, most people, I mean, I work at a university, most people don't have access to go read the original manuscripts [00:05:30] or, and the original how is this data collected?

[00:05:33] Will: W- w- why is the graph presented this way? What do these numbers mean? And so quite often the, the story of how harmful screens are [00:05:45] Is really, like, even with the researchers a- and people that are m- much more expert than I, than I am at, at population data, that there really isn't a big there there about mental health and, [00:06:00] and screens.

[00:06:00] Will: It's, um, even when meta-analyses or systematic reviews find that, you know, there, there's this correlation between youth mental health and, uh, screen time use or social media, [00:06:15] the truth is the effects are so small it's almost, like, not even worth publishing. So, um, so there, that was where I went, actually, the, the size of the narrative is actually sort of [00:06:30] way bigger than what the evidence says, and that's what really interested me, where we actually have federal policy, like for instance, I'm in Australia at the moment.

[00:06:40] Will: We're six months into our failing social media ban. You know, 83% [00:06:45] of under 16-year-olds are still on social media. Um, disability advocacy groups are still saying this wasn't a great idea. Now we have a freedom of speech issue about who can have access to communication. One of the biggest findings of Australia's social [00:07:00] media ban is it's actually just harder for kids to, uh, read the news.

[00:07:05] Will: Um, and then we have the United Kingdom implementing, by the time we're recording this, implementing virtually the exact same social media ban and saying they might [00:07:15] also ban VPNs. They might also, uh, um, make it even stricter. Meanwhile, the Australia federal government is saying Uh, actually we kind of messed this up.

[00:07:26] Will: And so it's just an interesting-- It's been an interesting time [00:07:30] since we last spoke about this, um, where, where the data is, is sort of continuing to come out that m- maybe, maybe this narrative, there's something that we got really wrong. Now, I say that at the same time while agreeing with you [00:07:45] that every family should make up their own mind.

[00:07:48] Will: And, and with the debate when two people are on a side, it's actually really nice to, to, to have this conversation and so people can make up their own mind. But I'd urge people to, to look at the research [00:08:00] evidence and, and see what's out there as well.

[00:08:02] Stephanie: You framed that with an important question about are people interested in what the data says, or are they interested in confirming their preexisting beliefs based on emotional reasoning?

[00:08:14] Stephanie: And we can [00:08:15] apply that, that question to a lot of different topics. Um, you know, it's a question I raise with my coaching clients all the time because, uh, teens can sound hyper-rational when they're arguing to [00:08:30] justify what they want, but it's a parent's job to recognize the emotions that are driving their argumentation and the, the fact that teens are, you know, they're grasping how to use language to be convincing.

[00:08:41] Stephanie: Their, their brain is rapidly growing in that ability. So when your [00:08:45] teenager is arguing using what sounds like logic for something where their emotions dictate what they want, you know, it is a parent's job to recognize that and know how to push back. And so that same principle applies to ourselves, right?

[00:08:59] Stephanie: And I would say [00:09:00] that, you know, when you take a, a typical American household, I'll use us as an example. Like I said, my husband and I had a tense conversation over my lunch break because like so many families, we have slightly different perspectives on this. I [00:09:15] do come from a more fearful, worst-case scenario place, and that's informed by my experience because the people I work with are the people whose kids got into some real trouble on the internet.[00:09:30]

[00:09:30] Stephanie: I work with parents of young men with porn addiction and failure to launch, and, you know, usually gaming addiction is in the picture. I work with parents whose daughters got into some really dark things on, on social media. And so Dr. D'Souza [00:09:45] and I talked about all that, right? We talked about how for girls, the biggest vulnerability is social media.

[00:09:49] Stephanie: For boys, it's gaming and pornography. Not to say that both of those don't go both ways, but I see the worst-case scenarios that unfold when these [00:10:00] situations metastasize, and where that leads in terms of life outcomes and character development, and whether they're able to leave home and be healthy. Um- So my perspective is a little biased, right?

[00:10:12] Stephanie: It's like I know how bad it can get. [00:10:15] Meanwhile, my husband's perspective is like, "Well, I grew up, you know, watching TV and playing video games, and I turned out fine." And I'm like, "You are Gen X. The internet didn't exist. You had a huge family with lots of siblings and two acres [00:10:30] to play in, so I'm pretty sure that your childhood isn't the same as," you know, "blended family kids going between two homes where there's endless scrolling available and untold dangers."

[00:10:44] Stephanie: Like, these are not the [00:10:45] same things, but it just is an example of how two parents' perspectives based on their own experience, that experience shapes our emotions, our instincts in reaction to these questions. And of course that's gonna bias both of us [00:11:00] when it comes to data and research and things like that.

[00:11:03] Stephanie: And, you know, sometimes the research ends up showing that somewhere between the two extremes is what's true, and sometimes research points to a completely different direction on one side or [00:11:15] the other. So I just wanna own my, my priors going into this, that I'm coming from that place of knowing how bad it can get when these things are unchecked.

[00:11:24] Stephanie: And so that's something for my listeners to bear in mind, and my students in ROGD Repair, and my coaching clients, [00:11:30] that yes, I'm of course biased by working with families for whom digital addiction has gotten really out of hand. Um, that said, you're bringing an important perspective because there are a lot of American families, [00:11:45] or, or you're not even Ameri- Australian families- Yeah

[00:11:47] Stephanie: English-speaking families. I am Ame-

[00:11:49] Will: I am American, but yes, I am in Australia. Yes.

[00:11:52] Stephanie: Okay. Yeah, I mean, it's like I, I only have, right, this, this one window over here. [00:12:00] Um, so tell us about the other side of the story.

[00:12:04] Will: Well, here's something i- interesting. I'm gonna write this down so I don't forget this note here.

[00:12:09] Will: One of the things is w- with the narrative, if we go to, [00:12:15] to America, so I'm, I'm from Washington, DC. And, um- One of the things that's really interesting, if we just go back to the anxious generation for a second, and we look at r- I mean, the, the biggest thing that captured, um, [00:12:30] the, the narrative of this was youth suicide rates and emergency room visits.

[00:12:35] Will: Now, one question is, does, does the European Union also have social media? 'Cause those rates did not increase over the last 15 years. [00:12:45] So what happened in particularly Australia and the United States? They were the two countries that saw really the largest increase in, um, not only youth mental health [00:13:00] diagnosing, which I think we talked about this last time, that we have a system that if you want your health insurance to pay for your child to see a therapist, you're getting a diagnosis.

[00:13:11] Will: That, that's how the system works in the United States. So [00:13:15] rising rates, when, when we use this to correlate, if we say rates of mental illness have gone up, screen time has gone up. But at the same time, we can also get lost without thinking, what's the third [00:13:30] variable here? Well, the third variable is more youths see therapists than ever before.

[00:13:35] Will: There's more therapists than ever before. Access, even though it's a problem, is also better than ever before. So rising rates could just mean [00:13:45] actually a really good thing. More people have access to therapy. It could have nothing- That's a good point ... to do with the phones, you know? So, and I'm just saying that's what happens when we throw third variables into the mix here.

[00:13:59] Will: [00:14:00] So there's a, there's a cultural issue, and not, not a cultural issue, but there's a cultural context that rising, the rising rates of youth suicide, and particularly when we think of social media and young women, has, has not [00:14:15] risen everywhere, and everywhere does have phones. The other thing is there's many other things that we could look at and, and so...

[00:14:27] Will: And, and let me state, I, I think it's important. You [00:14:30] stated your bias, and I, and I will, I will own mine, that I mean, I wrote a book called "Kids These Days," making fun of how adults talk about kids. And the narrative of social media [00:14:45] and th- like, this notion of, you know, once we get tech out of schools, schools will be great.

[00:14:52] Will: But school has sucked since the 1970s, right? If we looked at the suicide rates of people that went to high [00:15:00] school in the 1980s, it's way worse than young people today. So being a, being a, a, a m- a man in your 50s is, like, the, the, the biggest predictor of suicide in the country, but we're all longing with this [00:15:15] nostalgia bias for if school could only be the way it was in the '80s, you know?

[00:15:20] Will: So there's... So I have a, I have a bias about the way we talk about kids. Also, I'm a, uh, [00:15:30] not a real anarchist, but a classic oppositional, I see the big narrative and I go, "Ho- hold on a second. This, this can't add up that, that way." So-

[00:15:43] Stephanie: I have the same temperament.

[00:15:44] Will: [00:15:45] Yes, I know from our last conversation. So I, I sometimes think, what is the, what is the actual end goal of this?

[00:15:56] Will: And so, um, and so I, I'm, and [00:16:00] I'm not, I'm not, uh- I don't boo-hoo the tech companies when they get in trouble. They could actually do a lot more to protect kids from all the pornography, the stupid games, these sort of things. They, they have [00:16:15] a lot to answer for for this. I do think turning the screws on the kids instead of turning the screws on the tech companies is actually sort of where this really loses me.

[00:16:26] Will: And a perfect example of this is, is something like violent [00:16:30] video games, right? I remember headline after headline that violent video games cause violent crime. Now, that story has not panned out at all. If anything, violent crime has deteriorated. [00:16:45] Um, it's gone up kind of after COVID in many urban areas in the US and in, uh, but not gone up to the sense of what it was like in the '90s, right?

[00:16:55] Will: So violent v- video games are more violent than they've ever been. They're [00:17:00] sold in the billions. There's more violent video games than there's ever been. Kids play them longer and more often than before, and crime has gone down. And so when I think of when I hear the stories of [00:17:15] politicians or fear-mongering books like The Anxious Generation, I go, "Will you ever apologize when you're wrong about this?"

[00:17:25] Will: Like, w- where is the, "Oh, sorry. We, we actually messed it up with video games." It's actually [00:17:30] the inverse direction. Now, again, I'm not saying give your kids violent video games and that's cool, but it's just that in the data-driven world or the evidence-based times we're supposed to live in, I sort of look at it and go, [00:17:45] "What if the opposite tends to be true?"

[00:17:47] Will: When do you... So, and, and I'll use one more example here, 'cause I was, I was in Australia during COVID And I remember one-- 'cause all the American sports I like to watch [00:18:00] all happen in the morning here, right? 'Cause I'm on the opposite side of the world. And I remember, I'm not a basketball fan, but I remember when due to COVID, they canceled basketball, right?

[00:18:13] Will: And my first thought [00:18:15] was, h-how do you reel this back? Like, what's the-- whe-when do we get sports back? What information do we need to have to realize, okay, now it's safe enough for us to go back and play sports? I thought [00:18:30] with the, with the social media bans, does this just become more censorship, more prohibition, more...

[00:18:40] Will: And like, when do we realize that maybe we might be making a bit of a [00:18:45] mistake here? Um, and so in Australia, what w- the, the, um, what's the term in Australian terms for this? Let's say a commissioner, right? I, I don't know the-- I don't-- I, I can't follow two countries' politics at the same [00:19:00] time. So, so in Australia, the person who was in charge of implementing the social media ban in Australia, and by the way, that federal government wrote that ban in nine business days.

[00:19:12] Will: Tell me a federal government that gets anything done [00:19:15] productive in nine business days, right? They wrote out this ban, and then what, what she says now, six months later, was, "It was a mistake to take a blunt instrument and impose it on all the children without actually [00:19:30] thinking through how this is going to work and what we're going to do when this doesn't work."

[00:19:36] Will: So I do take a lens that is a bit oppositional, um, and a bit, I'm, I'm kind of thinking the whole time, "What does this [00:19:45] really say about the way we think of kids?" So, um, that's, that-- I, I think that's sort of my bias, and I was always someone, I, I was a, I was a boarding school kid, and when, you know, at boarding school in Massachusetts, and when people told [00:20:00] me, "This is a new rule," I'd always think, "But why?"

[00:20:04] Will: And so I was very annoying for other adults as well.

[00:20:08] Stephanie: So your bias is just being oppositional in general, distrust of authority. Probably. I have the same bias, but- Yeah ... when it comes to [00:20:15] screens, I, screens and teens, I'm, I'm, I'm very conservative on that. So I wanna understand, where do you think we've gotten it wrong, right?

[00:20:24] Stephanie: You're saying, "Hey, when do we look at the data and realize that maybe we got this wrong or we need to [00:20:30] walk this back?" But you gave that using the example of restricting teenagers from using social media, and I'm trying to think of a valid case for arguing that teenagers should be using social media, and I can't think of one.

[00:20:43] Will: Well, there's a few examples. [00:20:45] Um, one example is that's just the way people communicate today. Things, things changed. You know, I, I, I, I I, you know, the, the irony is not lost on me that, that most of the narrative [00:21:00] selling that social media is bad happens on, let me check my notes, social media, right? So, so that's sort of how this narrative took, took hold.

[00:21:11] Will: Um, but I, I, I [00:21:15] think there's a that's, that's just the way the world is today. I mean, people were scared of kids with pagers, you know? They thought pagers were turning kids into drug dealers in the 1980s and early '90s. We were also scared of school [00:21:30] radio for propaganda, um, for political propaganda in the, in the '30s, '40s, '50s.

[00:21:36] Will: Uh, I believe I t- said this last time, that New York City banned pinball for 30 years because they thought it would turn kids into gambling addicts. So [00:21:45] sometimes a new technology comes out. We're seeing the same thing with AI at the moment in school. AI's going to ruin everything. Yeah, well, math, math teachers also protested the introduction of the calculator.

[00:21:56] Will: So these, this sort of is a historical [00:22:00] trend that happens. I don't really have a good argument as to why any parent should give their kids social media. I, I kind of-- And this is, this I, I think will be the irony of my perspective, is I sort of [00:22:15] align with you that if you feel conservative about this, um, not, not, not in a political way, but if you feel conservative in the sense of I, uh, don't really feel comfortable with my kid having screens or social [00:22:30] media, and it's really hard to actually police what your kids are doing, um, I wouldn't do anything that makes me feel more anxious as a parent.

[00:22:40] Will: I think that's, that's sort of, I think, the crux of this. So [00:22:45] I think the conversation about social media is really kind of a symbolic gesture to parents to say actually do what you think is right and do what you think you feel most comfortable with. So sort [00:23:00] of like R-rated movies exist. It-- We didn't ban all television, so...

[00:23:08] Will: Or all VHSs when you and I were kids. We, we, we were given the screen time that our [00:23:15] parents felt comfortable giving us. So that would be what I think is the way to go about this, is to actually really... I, I think of this like, like, like, like a therapist like we both are. Like, actually to reflect [00:23:30] on what makes us anxious as a parent, um, and then obviously with our partners, having the fights that we have, um, as well about parenting and where we agree, where we disagree, um, and [00:23:45] to make up that decision.

[00:23:46] Will: Um, so I would encourage all, all families to reflect on that, that sort of Who they want to be as a parent with, with kids, and that, and that [00:24:00] technology is, is not just-- you're not handing your child a mental illness is sort of what my, my viewpoint of this is. You're,

[00:24:09] Stephanie: you- Okay, let me push back.

[00:24:10] Will: Please do.

[00:24:12] Stephanie: So on the one hand, the message, [00:24:15] "Do what you feel is right as a parent," is empowering to parents on its surface.

[00:24:20] Stephanie: The problem that I see is a lot of parents don't know the risks, because we're talking about mostly Gen X, um, [00:24:30] also some of the younger Boomers, right? In terms of, uh, my clients at least, when I'm thinking about, um... You know, most of my clients are Gen X, some are Millennial. And then because I work with parents of young adults, including up to, you know, 30 or so, [00:24:45] um, you know, if, if you're looking at a 30-year-old whose parent is, parent is older, then we're talking Boomer, right?

[00:24:52] Stephanie: But, um, some peop- some Gen Xers and Millennials are very tech-savvy, [00:25:00] and some are hardly at all. You know, they know how to navigate what they need to do for their work and for maintaining their day-to-day responsibilities, and that's it. I mean, there are parents who are pretty ignorant about what pornography is these days, you know?

[00:25:14] Stephanie: Because [00:25:15] their understanding of pornography comes from what it was 30 years ago. They have no idea what it is today. Um, you know, a- and I just talk to so many parents in my line of work where they-- actually, this is [00:25:30] on my intake form. Um, when someone signs up to work with me, one of the questions I ask is, "If you could go back in time and do anything differently, what would it be?"

[00:25:39] Stephanie: So, uh, you know, I get that question right from the start, and it usually has to do with [00:25:45] regulating screen access. Um, the, the te- the thing that I tell people all the time based on seeing what went wrong with other people's lives is, "Don't give your kids screens with the expectation of privacy or the expectation of unlimited [00:26:00] access."

[00:26:00] Stephanie: So setting up the expectation from the beginning that this is not a private place. We-- whether it's monitoring software, random periodic checks, whatever it might be, it's, "We can see what you're doing." And, um [00:26:15] Also, we set the limits and, you know, maybe for starters, here are your limits. You know, this much on weekdays, this much on weekends between these hours, but we can also give and take as we see fit, depending on how you seem to be [00:26:30] fitting this in with your life, right?

[00:26:31] Stephanie: So I think an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, and if you set that up from the beginning, if your kids know that nothing they do on the internet is private to begin with, if they don't expect it to be unlimited, then you're saving yourself a fight down the [00:26:45] line when they, uh, feel like otherwise you'd be taking something away from them.

[00:26:50] Stephanie: That's how I introduce these things to parents. But I just see so much of, "We didn't know," right? "We didn't know what she was looking at. We didn't know what he was reading. We didn't [00:27:00] know that, uh, you know, this app that we thought that they were just talking to their school friends, they were actually talking to God knows who."

[00:27:09] Stephanie: You know, there are just so many, um, instances of parental ignorance. So [00:27:15] I guess I just wanted to kind of unpack that with you, like, because parents are looking to us. They're looking to you and me as experts to tell them what, what limits they should impose or not on their kids. And so if, if you're [00:27:30] saying, "Do what you feel comfortable with," and a parent is saying, "Well, what do you think I should do?"

[00:27:33] Stephanie: Um, what would you tell them is advisable?

[00:27:36] Will: Yeah. I think, well, kids, kids-- I'm gonna put on my outdoor risk hat for a second. And [00:27:45] kids, kids actually, as, as you said, they, they do need boundaries. Like, you, you, you don't let your kid eat ice cream for dinner every day, you know? Um, and so I think that you do need to have boundaries [00:28:00] on these things when you give these things to, to children, kind of, kind of like a driver's license.

[00:28:05] Will: You know, you get boundaries. But I also think one thing we have not educated all of ourselves on, like, I mean, I think of this of people [00:28:15] of all ages, is, and you brought up prevention, so- Think about how we approach sex education. That, that we used to say abstinence is the best policy, and now we know harm [00:28:30] prevention is the best policy.

[00:28:31] Will: That, that we need to teach kids about how to be safe, what consent is. And I mean, that also swung so far that everybody is scared to death and needs a lawyer present the first time that they have a, have a [00:28:45] sexual experience with somebody. So but we, we learned how to cultivate a positive, usually teenage sexual experience, which is awkward, uncomfortable, terrible, right?

[00:28:58] Will: We did our best to tr- I don't, I

[00:28:59] Stephanie: don't [00:29:00] know that we've done a good job of that .

[00:29:02] Will: Well, let me, well, let me, let me show... This is sort of where this conversation gets kind of quirky and funny.

[00:29:08] Stephanie: Okay.

[00:29:08] Will: Because I hear people on the s- on social media, uh, or, or especially the people that are really the, the, the [00:29:15] technology is killing childhood, right?

[00:29:18] Will: I hear, "The kids don't drink anymore, and they don't have sex anymore." And I go, "Well, you all spent billions of dollars on teenage pregnancy [00:29:30] and curbing teenage drinking and substance use. So you actually, you got exactly what you paid for. Y- y- you, you put this on the news. You asked for it. This is what you wanted."

[00:29:41] Will: And now, because social media is bad, we say, [00:29:45] "Ugh It's, it's ruined the childhood. And I go, "But you also..." Like Maryland, where I come from, our public school system has banned tag, w- no superhero play, no cops and robbers, no imagination, [00:30:00] no two k- What? No baseball, no football. This, uh, during recess. This is all things that have been written in policy by adults.

[00:30:09] Will: And then when the kid becomes a teenager, we go, "Why don't they go outside?" That's [00:30:15] like, well, what, what... We've actually legislated so much of what is happening that we're seeing with teenagers these days. So when... But the other side is, if teenage pregnancy is down, why don't we attribute that to [00:30:30] social media?

[00:30:31] Will: Kids care about the environment more than ever before. They volun- this generation actually volunteers, uh, for, for social causes more than ever before. Why don't we attribute that to social media? We tend to only attribute the [00:30:45] negative things to social media. So it kind of becomes this sort of convenience bias.

[00:30:50] Will: But going back to your first question, I totally agree with you. Parents do, um... And this is my experience working with [00:31:00] teenagers, is learning to set boundaries when things get out of hand, like your child staying up all night on the phone in their bedroom, uh, not sleeping. Those sort of things, it's very helpful to have boundaries [00:31:15] really from the start.

[00:31:17] Will: It's much harder when you don't have boundaries from the start to, to reel that back. That's where you're going to get into a power struggle with your child. Um, so y- I think it is important that people [00:31:30] are starting to think about how do we, what's the best, what's the best practice for our house of introducing these things to our child?

[00:31:38] Will: And I think that's where Jonathan Haidt's book, in The Anxious Generation, I think that was the [00:31:45] best selling point of the book was, you know, start with a flip phone. Be, be mindful of giving your kid social media forever, uh, y- like endless access. But I think at a population level, [00:32:00] that's where the data doesn't add up to all the hype.

[00:32:03] Will: So I think, can social media become a problem for your child? Absolutely. Um, so I do agree with you that I think parents do [00:32:15] really want to know what's the right thing, what should I do? Um, and so I, I, I think that prevention is the best way, sort of thinking about the way we go-- we, we, we tried to go about sex education, as you said.

[00:32:29] Stephanie: So I'm gonna give you the [00:32:30] same question actually that I just asked Dr. D'Souza. So toward the end of my conversation with him, I said, "Imagine that we have parents listening to this podcast right now, and these hypothetical [00:32:45] parents, they have three kids, ages six, eight, and 10. And so far, the kids have only had access to a shared family iPad, which dad uses in the kitchen, which kids use in the living room [00:33:00] to look up things on YouTube that the parents can hear.

[00:33:03] Stephanie: Um, and the kids occasionally join their parents at a shared family computer. Everyone can see what's going on. They navigate the computer together to look up something. And aside from that, they [00:33:15] have TV. They watch, you know, family movies together, and then whatever's going on in school, right?" So that is the extent to which these kids have had screens.

[00:33:26] Stephanie: They don't have any personal devices of their own. And [00:33:30] you're advising these parents. They're open-minded. They wanna know what's best for their kids. You're advising them what policies they should have heading into adolescence for their three kids. Um, what advice would you give those parents in terms of what to give them [00:33:45] access to, when, and how?

[00:33:47] Will: Well, again, this is anarchist Will coming out here. I, I, I think I would say, um There's going to come a time that your child needs to be [00:34:00] able, able to, like, like how a lot of people talk about our childhood. They, there, there's going to come a time where they're gonna need to be able to roam and range, and having a phone with a map on it is a really good way to do that.[00:34:15]

[00:34:15] Will: Um, and so I'm just, I'm just doing a research study, uh, here in, um, South Australia at the moment where, um, we are working with 12 and 13-year-olds using technology to actually increase their physical [00:34:30] exercise. And many of those kids were saying, "I actually had no idea that I could find hiking trails." And so we have 12-year-olds going hiking.

[00:34:41] Will: It's very cool and interesting. Um, that's, that's a bit of a utopia [00:34:45] version of our outcomes. Um, but so I actually think as a parent, when it comes time for the talk about the smartphone, it's your i- it's your responsibility to, A, model what [00:35:00] tech- how technology use you, y- what you want your child to see, um, you doing, and at the same time actually help them cultivate a positive social media experience.

[00:35:12] Will: So I have said to parents before, [00:35:15] "If you're not having fun on social media, close the app. Get off of social media. If you see things you don't like, don't keep staring at it. The algorithm will, uh, likes you staring at things." And I think if you can teach [00:35:30] that to children as early on as possible, where you kinda described this, uh, uh, a family with really positive digital integration into their life, that they're doing things together.

[00:35:44] Will: The kids [00:35:45] are in, in front of the parents while they're using, um, whatever piece of technology they're using I think that sounds like utopia. Like, that sounds, sounds perfectly great. I think, yeah, it's just about being involved with, with the child [00:36:00] and what they're doing, and not being too overprotective.

[00:36:03] Will: Now, I-- And this is where I think I'm going to sound a bit like, uh, um, like I'm, I'm reeling myself back here. We've had way too much [00:36:15] overprotection on things that don't matter, and not enough of the prevention protection when it comes to screens. So we hand our child a smartphone, and they bring eight billion people into your house.

[00:36:27] Will: But we're also fearful of [00:36:30] stranger danger. Like, my kid can't walk to school, they can't take the bus. They, they, uh, can't walk to the grocery store at the end of the street. Like, so the whole-- I think the whole point of all of this is to really reflect on our own [00:36:45] anxiety with things, and that we have to be involved in our children's life to help them cultivate that positive experience, so they can have the freedom to learn from the technology that they're using as they integrate it into [00:37:00] your life, into their life.

[00:37:01] Will: So I'm with you that I don't think you can just hand this to them and say when they, when they're becoming, you know, when they're entering adolescence and say, "Here you go. Off you go." [00:37:15] You know? Um, so I think we just have to be really present with actually helping them integrate and int-integrate this into their lives, to learn about notifications, to learn about, uh, the algorithm, to, [00:37:30] um, learn about things like, like, uh, like group chats.

[00:37:33] Will: Like, you don't have, you don't get to consent to joining a group chat, you know? And so we, we all know group chats can be really annoying if it's a really active group chat with your friends, [00:37:45] but maybe we're at work. It's really annoying. You gotta go mute that. Like, we can teach, um, we can actually teach this stuff to kids so that they can integrate it into their life.

[00:37:57] Will: I think that's sort of an, an [00:38:00] educational preventative approach, to me would be the, would be the utopia.

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[00:38:45] Stephanie: So I'm, I wanna keep poking holes in your arguments- Please do ... if that's okay, because your perspective sounds a little utopian to me in that it sounds like a really healthy...

[00:38:56] Stephanie: Like, the, what you describe when you talk about kids having [00:39:00] a phone with access to a map so they can go out and hike, I'm thinking about my kids and I'm like, "Yeah, no way that's what they would be doing with that phone." I'm like, like, and like I would... Oh my- Do you have any idea how much I would love it if [00:39:15] my kids were hiking enthusiasts?

[00:39:16] Stephanie: Like, I'm the hiking enthusiast here. You know? So, so like I love the idea that a kid's gonna take a phone and great, now I can go explore more and have better navigational skills, um, [00:39:30] and things like that. But what about the, the honest reality of how addictive these technologies are? I mean, l- you, you make a fair point that like parents should model self-regulation first [00:39:45] and foremost, that, you know, emotional self-awareness.

[00:39:48] Stephanie: When you're, when you are scrolling social media in the presence of your children, how are you reacting? How is it making you feel? Are you curating your feed? Are you taking a step back if it's enraging you and disgusting you [00:40:00] like it's designed to do? Like, that, that modeling makes sense, but I'm still wondering about what about the fact that these things are designed to be addictive, and that when it comes to social media, it's designed to keep the person hooked as long as [00:40:15] possible partly by shortening their attention span and provoking intense emotions?

[00:40:21] Announcer: Sure. So-

[00:40:24] Will: I think this is, this is such a good question about how it's designed. [00:40:30] And it's-- this is a, this is a, uh, an, an interesting discussion because I, I'm probably now going to enrage your listeners about my perspective on this. Um, Netflix is [00:40:45] designed to hold your attention. That's why miniseries are so important right now, and they go, "You still watching?

[00:40:52] Will: You wanna watch one more episode of this show?" That's a design feature. No one is complaining about Netflix or [00:41:00] miniseries or TV shows. They're designed to hook you. We call a good book a page-turner because it was designed to hook you into this. That, that can't-- for me, that can't be the issue, that it's designed...

[00:41:14] Will: [00:41:15] Now, infinite scroll was created to keep you hooked. You know, these sort of-- uh, things are always designed to be marketable, to keep you engaged with something. That's how, that, that's how an, any business [00:41:30] makes money, by keeping you engaged in the product. Um, so that's natural. This lends us really in, in really good point to talk about the, the Meta trial that happened, um, in California rec- [00:41:45] uh, what was it, two months ago, that verdict, where Meta was viewed as culp- uh, culpable for, for causing something, causing a mental illness and, and, and, and they're, they're paying millions of [00:42:00] dollars to this, this child and this family.

[00:42:02] Will: Now, the level of abuse in that household and-- was, was there far before social media existed. So one argument, and, and [00:42:15] I'm, I'm not-- uh, I like trauma-informed ideas. Again, it's too popular and it's a buzzword and I, uh, you know, no one really knows what it means anymore, right? In a trauma-informed [00:42:30] world, I, I, I remember reading Gabor Maté's work about addiction, uh, you know, 14 years ago or whatever, that drugs don't cause addiction, that we, we, we were all saying trauma causes addiction.

[00:42:44] Will: We should [00:42:45] all be like Portugal and legalize all drugs and, uh, go harm reduction strategies. And, and, and I thought that was a bit extreme as well. But we kind of-- I- it's interesting to try and ask to have it both ways [00:43:00] in the therapy world. Is a piece of technology causing something, or is it something that starts in the house or starts at school or starts in the, in the world we're asking kids to grow up in?

[00:43:13] Will: So, so, [00:43:15] and, and if we look at the, again, the data, like I said, is, um, you know, mostly correlational and not even that strong of data that, you know, people who are depressed stay in bed more often. [00:43:30] Nobody's asking to ban beds. Like, why, why is my kid in bed all day? Well, they might really be struggling. And so that, this is where this comes into, like, an interesting perspective if we look at it from, if we brought in the [00:43:45] trauma-informed lens, which is why, why are people glued to this instead of being in, in sort of heart-to-heart relationships, open, you know, being together relationships?[00:44:00]

[00:44:00] Will: And I think that, to me, is such an interesting question. So the meta trial, and again, I am not boo-hooing the tech companies losing money. At the same time, what that did is it said a, an org- a [00:44:15] company's design features were addictive, and I just go that, that, it, it's a, it's a p- it's media. Like, 24-hour news, are we gonna sue 24-hour news that all of us are [00:44:30] watching our political leanings news and...

[00:44:32] Will: Like, that, the, the, the precedent of that to me is, is very odd when we start saying things like the word addiction. And [00:44:45] I, you know, like it's, again I, I think there is a There's an issue where I think the, the conversation we're having, and I love having, and I love you, you [00:45:00] poking holes at it as well, is what to do in one family and then what to do at a policy level and at a...

[00:45:08] Will: A- and so I think sometimes what to do in your family, and, uh, that's where I [00:45:15] really agree with you. Where I sort of push back is when you zoom out, there's really not that big of a problem with screens and youth mental health. It's, the data just is not there. It's not [00:45:30] conclusive. I'd encourage everybody to watch, I mean, we're recording this in July, to watch, um, Candice Odger's recent TED Talk.

[00:45:39] Will: Amazing. I, I'll send you the link to that. You could put it in the show notes. It's a, it's a fantastic [00:45:45] talk about youth mental health and the data about this, um, that when we zoom out, the, again, the narrative of this causing something or this being addictive [00:46:00] doesn't pan out in the evidenced way that we, that we might feel like it does.

[00:46:05] Will: Um, and so, uh, but I agree with you that you're handing your child something that is fun, that is engaging, that [00:46:15] is designed inherently to keep you hooked the same way YouTube is, the same way, uh, N- Netflix is, the same way Disney+ is. They're, they're all d- the, that's [00:46:30] the, that's the economy of screen time.

[00:46:33] Will: So in one way, you're, you're giving your child something and you want to be mindful of anything that your child, uh, that you're giving them that y- that is fun, [00:46:45] you know? Same thing with video games. They are fun. They're designed to be fun. But even though we were scared of video games 15 years ago, we don't hear anybody complaining about Xbox or PlayStation hardly anymore.

[00:46:59] Will: Um, it's [00:47:00] all the phone now, even though some kids stay up all night gaming or on the computer gaming or those sort of things. So it's, it's interesting how times have changed, but I think the meta trial is a really good lesson [00:47:15] on who are the people that are really struggling with having access to social media, and I think that starts well before the phone.

[00:47:25] Will: And I don't mean that, I'm not a parent blamer for things unless it's [00:47:30] like abuse and neglect, right? Um, but what we know is the greatest predictor of someone's mental health is, is what happens in the household, and so, and that usually starts before phones. And I said [00:47:45] I'd, I'd like to talk a bit about my war on schooling in a se- in, as well today, but it also starts in schools.

[00:47:52] Will: So we look at, and, and I, you know, I am a left-wing a- adjacent [00:48:00] person, you know? Uh, a little bit too centrist for some people. But, um If we look at some of the things that have happened to school over the last 20 years, um, I actually think that has far more to answer for when it [00:48:15] comes to youth mental health than anything related to screens.

[00:48:19] Will: Um, and, and, uh, I've seen very convincing data about it and, and the same trend for the United States, Australia, and the United Kingdom. [00:48:30] Um, so I think sometimes the screen bec- the s- the, the technology becomes the scapegoat of something we're not looking at, which as parents we know is looking at our household, looking at, um, how we [00:48:45] parent our kids, and then the places that we send them from 9:00 to 5:00 every single day.

[00:48:51] Stephanie: Okay. I hear you trying to get into the school conversation. We'll go there in a minute. There's a couple of points I wanna explore. So there's, there's essentially two points you've brought [00:49:00] up that I wanna hone in on. So one is the question, how do we measure at scale, right? If it's not rising rates of diagnosis because rising rates of diagnosis in America at least can be attributed [00:49:15] to, like, the Affordable Care Act and what it meant for therapy, and the fact that if you see a therapist, you're getting a diagnosis, right?

[00:49:23] Stephanie: There, there's all these variables, right? So there is the question of, okay, how do we measure at scale? [00:49:30] Um, but before we get to that even, I just wanted to flag that I, I hear you making a point that feels-- The, the point itself feels like it's on some kind of slippery slope to me, and I'm trying to understand what I find [00:49:45] unsettling about this, right?

[00:49:46] Stephanie: You're saying the culture of the home, the family dynamics, the, the relationships predate the screens, and essentially, like, I hear you saying, "I'm not [00:50:00] blaming parents," but if your kid has a dysfunctional relationship with technology, you might wanna look at what they're trying to avoid or, you know, like, what's going on at home that makes them want to [00:50:15] escape the home environment into that digital world.

[00:50:17] Stephanie: Is that essentially what I hear you saying?

[00:50:18] Will: I know I can get in this trap when I can't fall asleep. I'll sit there and scroll on my phone to avoid the uncomfortable feeling of sitting there being alone with my own thoughts. I'll go, [00:50:30] I'll go crazy with it. So the phone is a symptom. I mean, I, when-- And, and I'd encourage a lot of people also to look at, uh, Chris Ferg- Dr.

[00:50:38] Will: Chris Ferguson's work, uh, from Stetson University in Florida, that the, the phone [00:50:45] is, is usually a symptom of something else. And, and the, the example Chris said to me, which cracks me up all the time: "I have to sit in the world's most boring faculty meetings all the time, and I just sit [00:51:00] there, and eventually I will go Uh, what's on my phone?

[00:51:06] Will: That's way more exciting than this dull, boring listening to some new manager that's full of shit. Like, I'll sit there and go, "This sucks." [00:51:15] You know? Same thing with adults on, um, on the airplane. You know, the, the, the, the flight attendant is literally telling you, "If this shit goes sideways, this is how to get off the plane."

[00:51:28] Will: And you look around, [00:51:30] and everybody's on their phone. Everybody. You know? Okay. Even when they tell you to put it on airplane mode, nobody does it anymore. So- So I think this is a symptom of looking at the kids when this is really about [00:51:45] everybody, and everybody needs to be in this together. That's the kids these days effect.

[00:51:49] Will: This is about the kids and not about the adults. Please push back.

[00:51:54] Stephanie: Well, I'm trying to pinpoint your argument so that I know where I [00:52:00] actually wanna push back. I'm trying to understand, if you could do me a favor and just give me a yes or no answer.

[00:52:06] Will: For

[00:52:06] Stephanie: sure. Am I summarizing your point accurately when I say that you...

[00:52:12] Stephanie: 'Cause what I'm hearing, what, what I'm inferring, [00:52:15] deducing, whatever, from what you're saying is that if a family feels that their teenager has a dysfunctional relationship with technology, that is a symptom of something that we can't blame technology for. It's a [00:52:30] symptom of something in the family relationships, for example.

[00:52:35] Stephanie: Yes or no?

[00:52:37] Will: I lean towards yes, but it's a could be. It's a, it's, I lean- Okay ... towards there's probably [00:52:45] something that's bigger picture going on than just the technology.

[00:52:50] Stephanie: Okay. So, like, I agree and I disagree with that because It's-- Here's my view. [00:53:00]

[00:53:00] Announcer: Sure.

[00:53:00] Stephanie: There's something that could be improved in every family.

[00:53:04] Announcer: Of course.

[00:53:05] Stephanie: Um, no, no one's perfect, right? Um, however, I do feel [00:53:15] like there's a difference between how addictive phones and modern devices are compared to, like, for example, you compared them to books. You said a good book is called a page-turner. But [00:53:30] the thing is, we're all reading a lot less books right now than we used to before these devices e- existed because the devices have a stronger pull.

[00:53:41] Stephanie: And I think one way to think about it-- [00:53:45] So in my last conversation with Dr. D'Souza, I was using the toddler at the candy bin analogy, right? That if you have a toddler and you have a big bin of candy, you should probably keep it high up and locked away. Um, otherwise, it's [00:54:00] not really your kid's fault if you leave it in the lowest cabinet free to grab at any time.

[00:54:06] Stephanie: Like, who could blame the kid for eating all the candy? You put it there, right? And I think when we give unregulated access to the sweet, sweet candy of, you know, [00:54:15] digital dopamine hits, that that's essentially what we're doing. So another way to think about it would be like an endless buffet. If you have an endless buffet of food, um, who's to blame the kids for going for the tasty, fatty, [00:54:30] sugary foods as opposed to the salads and the proteins, right?

[00:54:35] Stephanie: There, there's a degree of self-regulation needed to make adult choices from that buffet, and most people would not expect kids to make [00:54:45] those choices if left to their own devices. So I guess my feeling about these technologies compared to other uses of time in a household is Yeah, the family dynamics aren't perfect.

[00:54:58] Stephanie: There, is there, is, is there a symptom [00:55:00] of something going? Yes, but at the same time, who can compete with that? Who can compete with the instant dopamine hit of the, the likes or the gaming victories or that endless scroll and the way that the algorithm is designed to [00:55:15] hook your attention and, and your emotions?

[00:55:17] Stephanie: And so it, it feels like a little bit of a chicken and egg dilemma to me because are there underlying family dynamics that can be improved? Yes. Is there maybe some degree of [00:55:30] conflict or emotion that they're avoiding or, you know, like yes, every family can improve those things, and people come to me for help improving those things, and that's what we do in my approach to parent coaching.

[00:55:40] Stephanie: We, we look at what could be improved. But at the same time, I feel like [00:55:45] saying, I feel like it's a slippery slope from the point you're making to a point I don't think you're making, and the point at the bottom of that slippery slope, if you fall down the slope, is if your kid has a dysfunctional [00:56:00] relationship with screens, whether that be social media, gaming, pornography, whatever it might be, it's because of your shortcomings as a parent or your shortcomings as a family, and the fix is to address those [00:56:15] issues rather than to exercise restriction.

[00:56:19] Stephanie: Whereas I feel like maybe we shouldn't put such highly addictive things there in the first place, and yes, we should improve the things that should be improved, but it's also a lot to compete with [00:56:30] to like expect a kid to choose to be around their imperfect family You know? Um, or to, to like sort of say that the family should be perfect before the kid's gonna want to be a part of it, you know?

[00:56:44] Stephanie: Do you know what [00:56:45] I'm saying?

[00:56:46] Will: Yeah. Because- I think, I think, I actually think what you're saying kind of, uh, uh, uh, uh, agree... I think the candy metaphor and the buffet is the perfect metaphor, which is why, why do [00:57:00] kids like to be on the screens? Be- because it's, it's fun and engaging. Why do they like gaming?

[00:57:08] Will: Because it's fun and engaging. When that relationship becomes dysfunctional, there's, there's [00:57:15] something that needs to happen in, in the household to, to, to, to, uh, to, to help repair that relationship with that technology. Now, one of the things that Nevan and I did with Kids These Days, it- when we were writing, [00:57:30] yeah, and you brought up something that's, that's really, really interesting to me.

[00:57:34] Will: When, uh, when we talk about books being a page-turner, right? Now, when women started getting access to books, people hated it. They said, "Women aren't [00:57:45] doing their household chores anymore. They're distracted. They're just stuck in these fantasy novels reading these books." This was like the 1700, 1800s. We are always, as, as people, living in, living in [00:58:00] modern times and complaining about it, while longing for some good old days that actually never really existed.

[00:58:07] Will: So when I say things like a book being a page-turner, it's not really a anecdotal talking point. It used to be a fear of [00:58:15] people. I mean, if you, if you look in the 1950s, there was a book called The Seduction of the Innocent. This is the anxious generation, but about comic books. And people said, "If your kids are reading Batman & Robin, who are secretly in a [00:58:30] same-sex relationship, it's, it's propaganda to turn your children gay."

[00:58:34] Will: And parents had burning parties, burning comic books, 'cause kids were glued to comic books. So there's... I can see both sides. I see the side that, [00:58:45] do I want my kid just eating candy all day long and getting a dysfunctional relationship with candy? No. At the same time- Do I understand why kids like candy?

[00:58:58] Will: Yeah. And do I need to [00:59:00] pathologize why kids like candy? No. So I think that you're bringing up a, a really good point, pointing out that there is something about... There's a, there's an important question that we have to ask, which is who [00:59:15] develops a dysfunctional relationship with technology, instead of technology causes dysfunctional relationships with technology.

[00:59:23] Will: So that's sort of the point that we sort of, th- that, that I come at this from, that, [00:59:30] um, there's usually a case... I mean, and you know this as a therapist and with the people you work with, that it's a, it's a, it's a case-by-case individual, you know, what, what is happening, um, on a [00:59:45] case-by-case basis. But I, I appreciate the, the poking at it for sure, 'cause it's always fun to talk to you anyway.

[00:59:52] Will: Um- I

[00:59:52] Stephanie: don't think we need to pathologize, I don't think we need to pathologize kids- Well, when we call- ... for liking candy. I, I think-

[00:59:59] Will: But when we call [01:00:00] it addiction- ... I think my- ... that to me, like, there is no social media addiction in the DSM. So that, that-

[01:00:07] Stephanie: My view... Hold on. Let me, let me make my point- Go ahead ... and then you can argue.

[01:00:10] Stephanie: Sure. Okay? So- No,

[01:00:10] Will: okay.

[01:00:11] Stephanie: I love it ... my view is that because these [01:00:15] things are addictive, it's a parent's responsibility to regulate their access, um, because we shouldn't actually expect kids to have the capacity and the motivation and [01:00:30] the desire to regulate their access to screens any more than we should expect a toddler to regulate their desire to candy, right?

[01:00:41] Stephanie: That's why it's the job of the parent. So I made the point in my [01:00:45] conversation with Dr. De Souza that, uh, you know, this is why I teach parents tools like strategic apologizing, right? So if a parent has given unlimited access and realized it was a mistake, I teach the parents how to take full responsibility for their [01:01:00] mistake, right?

[01:01:00] Stephanie: And I think it's- It's not kind or helpful for parents to do things like calling their kid an addict, right? So this is a conversation between me and you for our adult listeners. It's not how I would recommend parents talk to their kids. I would never say to parents, [01:01:15] "Say you're such an addict." I would say no.

[01:01:16] Stephanie: Like, you, if you recognize your kid is misbehaving, you take full responsibility. You say, "I should never have given you this in the first place. I apologize for my mistake. I understand that me taking this away is gonna feel like [01:01:30] punishment. It's not punishment, it's me realizing I made a mistake in giving this to you in the first place.

[01:01:34] Stephanie: I should have regulated it better. You're still learning how to regulate. That part of your brain isn't fully mature yet. My bad." So that's my perspective on it. Hmm. I'm not saying we should, like, be [01:01:45] angry at kids or name-call them or blame them, but I am saying we have a responsibility to regulate giving them things that have that addictive potential.

[01:01:56] Will: Yeah. And when you were talking there, what popped into my mind [01:02:00] is something I, I often do with parents. 'Cause when, when parents call me, um, as you, as you would know as well, I'm sure it's very similar, it's usually about what w- [01:02:15] It's usually o- often about what kids, what their children are not doing. Like my kids, let's say, on their phone not doing their homework, or they're, they're staying up all night video gaming and not sleeping.

[01:02:28] Will: And what tends to [01:02:30] happen is the parent tends to get into a power struggle over something. So, uh, I can't get my child to do their homework. Well, first off, that's not your job as the parent. Your-- That's your, [01:02:45] that's your child's homework. It's not your homework. It's the child's homework. So if the child is doing something like playing PlayStation all day instead of doing their homework, what, one of the things we think about, and I, I work with parents every day talking [01:03:00] about this, like what are you responsible for, and what is the child responsible for?

[01:03:06] Will: So the child's responsible for doing their homework if that's what the school has asked them to do. Now, the parent is responsible for the house, for [01:03:15] the food, maybe for laundry, maybe for keeping the house clean, um, making sure the house is a safe enough environment, um, making sure they're present when child asks for help.

[01:03:28] Will: Um, and then [01:03:30] also parents are responsible for privileges. And so if your child is showing they're not responsible, let's say a 16-year-old is not responsible enough to borrow the car and come home at curfew, they're showing you they're not [01:03:45] responsible enough to borrow the car and- until they can demonstrate to you that they're responsible enough to use this thing.

[01:03:53] Will: So that's where I think you and I would probably really agree about how to set limits on things. And so I [01:04:00] think that sometimes starts with, um, as you said, I, I like the idea of strategic apologizing 'cause I'm, I'm usually a pretty open book, and I'm, as you can probably tell, I'm a lot to live with. So, um- Yeah.[01:04:15]

[01:04:15] Will: So I think that, um- There are, there are ways that we can talk to parents about this where it doesn't-- And this is where I, I think where I take this big zoomed out approach where we call the kids [01:04:30] coddled, fragile, addicted. Like, that's the language I hear on the news all the time. That's the language of best-selling books.

[01:04:37] Will: I mean, the anxious generation. The entire generation? Well, it's still, and it al- like almost always has been like a [01:04:45] one in five have a, have a diagnosed mental disorder in their adolescence. That means 80% are okay. So why, why are we pathologizing the whole generation? Well, that's what sells books, so I get it.

[01:04:58] Will: But so I [01:05:00] think that where I, I really agree with you is for, for parents to reflect on what am I responsible for as the parent, and then what's my kid responsible for? And then we can start [01:05:15] noticing when is the screen interfering with what my child is responsible for. That's where the dysfunctional relationship comes into it that you're bringing up, that if my child is not doing the things that they're supposed to, that they're being asked to [01:05:30] do to be responsible for.

[01:05:31] Will: Now, I think the issue here, and where I think And this is me thinking in, in like as a, as a pseudo-philosopher here. That's where the [01:05:45] historical perspective I think is really interesting because culturally, especially the United States, we did something over the past 40 years to parents. It was called scaring the shit out of [01:06:00] them.

[01:06:00] Will: So you put missing children, you put one missing child on a milk carton, but you print one million milk cartons. Everyone is now scared of stranger danger. Now guess what? I'm sorry to say this, [01:06:15] nobody wants to kidnap your child. It just, it, it, it is so rare. You'd have to leave your child unsupervised, I think someone did the math, like for 750,000 unsupervised hours.

[01:06:29] Will: Like [01:06:30] it, it's not as prevalent as the fear-mongering news makes it out to be. So what we simultaneously did as technology entered our lives was we don't go out, like you and I as hiking [01:06:45] people, most people, adults don't bring their kids outside anymore. We, um, play dates are usually restricted to the home.

[01:06:54] Will: There's less sleepovers than ever before. Before COVID, the rates of trick-or-treating in [01:07:00] America were going down to the point that people were starting to do tr-trick-or-trunking, you know? Going to church parking lots and just so that everybody knew each other. People were less sc- when I, I mean, a-and I'm gonna do a back in my [01:07:15] day.

[01:07:15] Will: You know, I lived in a, I lived in kind of a "Leave It to Beaver" neighborhood. It was on a cul-de-sac with a playground and a basketball court and a, and a creek and a sewer that we always used to climb through as kids. I could walk into my neighbor's [01:07:30] h- no one locked the door, you know? It was different times.

[01:07:34] Will: So- As technology increased, I think what it did is it actually gave us a perspective of [01:07:45] things that were already changing, which was really re- um, restricting the way we help our children interact with the, with the real world, with the outside world. [01:08:00] Um, and then simultaneously, the narrative really began.

[01:08:05] Will: And, and this, if you look at bestselling books, they, they, they replicate themselves all the time. I mean, the word the anxious generation was written in the 1940s. Like, [01:08:15] that, I could trace that one back. So this has been going on. But so I think what has happened is we simultaneously took, um, we're looking at technology as actually sort of a [01:08:30] mirror on something that has culturally been happening over the last 40 years, which was kind of a, a, a distrust of new technology, which is that's human behavior forever.

[01:08:42] Will: We, we actually really didn't like when the [01:08:45] kaleidoscope was invented, you know, the original infinite scroll in the ni- in the 1800s. Um, and so I think there's something that is a bit of a mirror that we can look at ourselves through the environment that we created for [01:09:00] kids. And so if the kids are more anxious, I think we should really be looking at how, how is the world-- what, what is the world like that we set up for them?

[01:09:11] Will: So I think, um, that was a bit of a ramble. But [01:09:15] what you said, it reminded me of responsibility in parenting and those sort of things.

[01:09:19] Stephanie: Let me move on to that other question I mentioned I had for you. So- How do we measure things at scale, right? So, um, you brought up an important point earlier that there is this third variable [01:09:30] which is, you know, how healthcare policy, for example, in the United States affects the rates of, you know, number of people getting diagnosed with anything.

[01:09:40] Stephanie: But I can think of an example of something that might be more, a [01:09:45] little more objective anyway, which is like rates of psychiatric drug use. So for example, um, you know, my field is the, the gender frontier, um, and that's where, you know, we [01:10:00] have this battle in the culture over what is the truth regarding the best way to help people who struggle with gender identity.

[01:10:10] Stephanie: And there's a lot of battles over what's the good evidence and what's the [01:10:15] bad evidence when it comes to that stuff, and there are a lot of really kind of subjective measures of self-report which are usually done like way too short of a time period after life-altering procedures, and then those are pointed to like, [01:10:30] "See?

[01:10:30] Stephanie: People are happy 'cause they say so." When we're looking for something more objective, we look at things like rates of psychiatric drug use. So we know, for example, that regardless of what people say about how they feel about the life-altering surgery they just had a year ago, [01:10:45] the reality is they're on more psychiatric drugs after the surgery than they were before at scale.

[01:10:51] Stephanie: And to me, that seems more objective, especially when you look at, you know, the-- We're talking like antipsychotics as well as antidepressants. [01:11:00] Um, so I'm just wondering, giving that kind of example from my field, if you have any, uh, of these sort of factors in mind of how do, you know... If, if looking at certain data that's framed maybe in a, [01:11:15] a politically motivated light is actually misleading, where do we look?

[01:11:19] Will: It's a great question. And, and before I try my best to ramble my way through this question, I just wanna say how much I love, uh, talking about the phones and technology [01:11:30] with you and going back and forth and, and you pushing back 'cause that is, that, like even if we weren't recording, I would love this conversation anyway.

[01:11:39] Will: So I really appreciate, um, the back and forth about it and having the opportunity to talk about that. That, that [01:11:45] is, that is, I think, the greatest part of my job. So I really appreciate you for having that conversation as well, and it's so fun. You're right that there are those things. There's also like emergency room visits are usually sometimes a good [01:12:00] indicator as well.

[01:12:01] Will: That, that can get me on my school high horse too. Um, but so there's other things that we can, we can look at here. Um- I often think, and I think this is hard because [01:12:15] I don't mean this to sound like I'm at the ivory tower, but as an academic, we have access to peer-reviewed articles and libraries and this, this stuff where you can kind of get an idea where things come from, where ideas, the, [01:12:30] where...

[01:12:30] Will: How did something come to fruition? And I view this as, um Sort of the, um, in a, in a classical kind of feminist stance of [01:12:45] what is the dominant narrative? Why is there a dominant narrative? Who wants this story to be true? That's sort of a way I, I-- and, and again, that's me being oppositional and, uh, chal- trying to challenge ideas where they come [01:13:00] from.

[01:13:00] Will: There's, there's a few things that have happened in the US. I mean, the, the United States and New Zealand are the only two countries that legally can, uh, advertise for, uh, uh, pharmaceuticals, which I will tell [01:13:15] you, um, when, when people... Even when I come home to America and I sit with my mom on the couch and watch TV, it's alarming to see advertisements for all these different [01:13:30] illnesses that, you know, nobody has, right?

[01:13:33] Will: It's bi- it's bizarre, you know? Um, so that's a weird thing. The, the, the one thing when it comes to counting is it's important to ask what [01:13:45] measure... And see, this is like too deep into the weeds of research. But so if you think of like, like we started Kids These Days with the, with the story of, of, of OxyContin and, and Purdue Pharma, that you know the smiley [01:14:00] faces when you go to the emergency room and they say, "What's your pain, zero to 10?"

[01:14:04] Will: That was created by the, the painkiller, you know, the pain hustlers. And, and so they, they invented [01:14:15] pain science. They said this is the next vital sign. So, so your breathing, your pulse, your pulse oxy- uh, pulse oxygen, your blood pressure, and your pain from zero to 10 with smiley faces, right? [01:14:30] They invented this.

[01:14:31] Will: The, the PHQ-9, which is the most widely used screening tool for depression, um, that was invented by, by Pfizer's marketing team for Zoloft. Like they [01:14:45] invented the most widely used screening tool for their medication. So in many ways, why are we seeing a population increase in all of these things? I mean, the, the state of [01:15:00] Illinois is, is, has rolled out, they're, they're, they're gonna do mandatory mental health screening for youth.

[01:15:08] Will: This is insane. This is not wh- like, and what are we going to do next? Has [01:15:15] everyone-- does everybody have to be therapized? D- does everybody have to be medicated? So we're seeing rising rates at levels where we find, you know, stimulant for ADHD runoff in the, in the [01:15:30] fish that we eat, in, in water runoff. Same thing with antidepressants.

[01:15:34] Will: The most rising rates for antipsychotic use is actually for preschoolers, which is again insane. So it's actually [01:15:45] really challenging, and this is where I really feel for parents, that it is impossible to navigate this system where then we're seeing the population data. So it's actually very hard [01:16:00] to see why this is happening.

[01:16:02] Will: It's, it's a very big challenge. Is there, is there something objectively real happening here, or is there something that this is just the way the system is? And I'll give you an example from Australia. [01:16:15] In the 2010s, uh, the federal government rolled out what was called the National Disability Insurance Scheme, and what that was was better to, to get people living with disabilities out of the Medicare, so put them with a [01:16:30] different pool of money so that they could get better social supports, um, things like that.

[01:16:36] Will: Now, the thing is, autism was under that umbrella, and it was more money than Medicare was given. So what did [01:16:45] we see? A huge rise in autism diagnosis, right? Like it was totally correlated to the money. And so what happens is, I think-- I guess let me-- when we, when we think of [01:17:00] ourselves like therapists for a second, we're all involved in the system that we're involved in, and so we need to be mindful of that when it comes to the, the population data which can become so [01:17:15] skewed, and it can always be something else.

[01:17:18] Will: It can always be, um, related to a different variable. So, and, and I think another kind of cautionary tale. So we interviewed in, in Kids These Days Dr. Bruce [01:17:30] Lanphear. He's a, a top 1% cited scientist. He's, he's a great Substack to follow too. But Bruce is a environmental toxins researcher. Now, I was very nervous [01:17:45] about this chapter in the book because I thought, "This is terrifying," like what w- what Bruce was showing us.

[01:17:53] Will: Now, when you talk to a toxins researcher And they, they think about [01:18:00] the, the plastics, uh, lead. Bruce was very pivotal, pivotal in talking about lead poisoning. Um, but you know, we, we did something in, was it the '70s that we got lead out of stuff? I forget the exact [01:18:15] year. But one of the things that happened was when we got lead out of gasoline and out of paint Cr-- The, the correlation of lead as a neurotoxin to violent crime is very [01:18:30] well documented.

[01:18:31] Will: And in the '90s, crime went down. Now, Bruce attributes that to lead. Now, Bruce also looks at, um, you know, lead is still found in, I think [01:18:45] 99% of, uh, pregnant women's blood. Um, and there's no safe level of lead. Like this, again, this is where this st- I don't really lose sleep over this stuff. It's very scary.

[01:18:55] Will: But when Bruce looks at autism rates, [01:19:00] he says, "Well, no kidding." Like, l- you know, b- uh, BPA that was in all our water bottles, that was correlated to attention-related issues, social issues, um, mercury poisoning. [01:19:15] Uh, all of these things are all around us. And so Bruce says, "Look at rising rates of autism. No duh."

[01:19:23] Will: Now, what a lot of people also say is, "Well, we loosened the reins on autism in the [01:19:30] DSM." So I think there's a really interesting way... Uh, well, again, I think this is very hard for anyone to parse out. Is it true that these chemicals are not good for us? Absolutely. I mean, atrazine, we have this endocrine [01:19:45] disruptor still allowed in North America agriculture, banned in the European Union for over 20 years.

[01:19:51] Will: These are all interesting things to think about. But also, there's a mental health system that requires you to use the DSM, that require, [01:20:00] that made diagnosing something like autism far easier than ever before. And so I think both those things can be true. I think that that's sort of the hardest part of looking at the population level of [01:20:15] things, that it's sort of, it's kind of rigged against our population ever getting better, if that makes sense.

[01:20:24] Will: I don't- You brought- I didn't really answer your question,

[01:20:26] Stephanie: but- ... a lot of important points there. Well- Yeah ... you brought up a [01:20:30] lot of other important points. I just have to say, unrelated to any of them, for those who are watching on YouTube and are like, "What is happening to Stephanie's face?" Um, there is light coming in through my window, bouncing off of a [01:20:45] suncatcher that is beaming a concentrated ray of light at my nose, and that's why I look like I'm glowing.

[01:20:51] Stephanie: Um, in addition to the shine on my face and the, the lighting from the window and the lighting from over here, there is, like, this concentrated sunbeam on my face- ... and that's what [01:21:00] that is. Um, and for those who are listening, they're not seeing it, but I was just like, "What is that?" And I had to figure it out.

[01:21:05] Stephanie: Um, but look, uh, you've brought up several important points. Yes to autism and environmental toxins. It is the BPA and the [01:21:15] mercury, and we need to be talking- Oh ... about these things more. And I would love for listeners to flag anyone in the comments Uh, if there is anyone I should interview as an expert on the autism Medicare scam that's going on in the United States right now, because it is a [01:21:30] racket, and I would love to interview an expert on that.

[01:21:32] Stephanie: So if you know- Yeah, I can ... who I should interview about that, leave that in the YouTube comments or the Spotify comments. Oh, and by the way, I always forget to ask my listeners, please rate and review my podcast. I'm supposed to be asking that. Um, it really helps. Thank you very much. [01:21:45] Um, why don't we take a break and- There's the sun on my end too Oh.

[01:21:50] Stephanie: Why don't we take a break, and when we come back, we'll finally give you a chance to get on your soapbox about, uh- School ... technology in schools.

[01:21:58] Will: Sure. [01:22:00]

[01:22:00] Stephanie: Okay, we'll be right back. Are you a therapist in need of continuing education that's not over-the-top woke? Check out my colleague Lisa Mustard's podcourses.

[01:22:10] Stephanie: All of her podcourses are approved by the National Board for Certified Counselors. Right [01:22:15] now, Lisa is offering my listeners an incredible deal. Get all 27 podcourses for only $44. That could meet almost all of your continuing education needs for the year. Visit lisamustard.com/podcourses [01:22:30] and use code SOMETHERAPIST to take $5 off of her $49 podcourse bundle.

[01:22:35] Stephanie: Again, use code SOMETHERAPIST at lisamustard.com/podcourses. I'll include that link and coupon in the show notes for your convenience. [01:22:45] All right, now back to the show. So we're back from our break, and we're finally gonna give Will the chance to get on his school soapbox. Tell us what you have to say, Will.

[01:22:55] Will: So it's interesting. Whenever you, whenever, [01:23:00] uh, you finish writing something... I'm gonna move forward so I'm out of my sunbeam. Whenever you finish writing something, it, it's interesting how much you wish you could have written more of, right? And so [01:23:15] when, when in Kids These Days, when we took a stab at school, we looked at the rising rates of, of things that, like a- accommodation requests, um, overprotection of kids.

[01:23:26] Will: Like I said, there's schools that are banning things like [01:23:30] imaginative play and, uh, reset, uh, rules at recess. Like I said, uh, um, uh, the public school system in Maryland that I came from is, has banned tag, uh, no two kids on the monkey bars, [01:23:45] baseball, football during recess. And I found myself thinking, you know, on, in, in what world does someone go to college to become an educator and think, "I have a great idea.

[01:23:56] Will: Let's ban tag." You know? So [01:24:00] I started doing some research, digging into schools and, and what has changed. Now, I, I, I started this with a, someone I followed on, um, Substack, and I forget the name, but a really good follow is Peter Gray, [01:24:15] who's a Harvard researcher whose research is into play and, and, uh, childhood and early childhood development, stuff like that.

[01:24:25] Will: And I found a graph, and again, we made f- we can make fun of [01:24:30] graphs 'cause sometimes they, they give you an optical illusion of something that's not really there. But this graph in particular, and I'll, and I'll draw it for you with my hands, it looked at i- in Australia from the 1990s, so we're talking about 30 years [01:24:45] of, of research Of suicide rates for young adults.

[01:24:50] Will: So, uh, I think it's 18 to 25-year-olds. And what you see is per 100,000 people, like a population data, it [01:25:00] stays actually very constant throughout the year and actually goes down a bit when it gets towards December and, and the holiday period. Um, uh, it, it hovers around 15, uh, p- suicides per 100,000 [01:25:15] people.

[01:25:15] Will: It's been pretty constant. Um, and again, it stays very level month to month throughout the year. When you look at children, um, so I wanna say that's 12 to 18-year-olds. Um, [01:25:30] and I can send you these graphs to, to, to put in the show notes, so in case I get the, those numbers wrong. Their rate hovers around seven per 100,000.

[01:25:40] Will: So in January it goes up, it goes pretty constant [01:25:45] around seven per 100,000 to May, and then June, July, August it drops down to about five and goes back up to seven and then tails back i- in September and then tails back off in December [01:26:00] where it goes back down where it goes back up in January. And so that's an interesting kind of thing to, for, for me to think about.

[01:26:09] Will: And so, um, I know the difference of a drop of seven to five doesn't [01:26:15] sound like a lot in per 100,000 people, but what's our country in the United States? 300 million? That's a lot of y- lot of kids, right? And so one of the [01:26:30] things that I started looking at is I found data. Then I, then I went to Australia. I was prepping to s- to speak at this conference.

[01:26:37] Will: In Australia, the school system is very different. We-- There, there is a summer break, but remember we're on opposite end of the [01:26:45] world so there is a break over the December holiday period, but it's not, it's not like America where it's three months out of school, you know, two and a half months, whatever it is.

[01:26:56] Will: So, uh, the Australian school system is set up in [01:27:00] 10-week semesters. So there's 10 weeks of school, and then a two-week, uh, school... They call it the school holiday period, school vacation. Then 10 more, then two weeks, and then it's a longer break over, over the December [01:27:15] break, which would be the summer. So emergency room visits for self-harm and suicidal calls in Australia goes like this, up, down, up, down, up, down, at a far [01:27:30] greater rate.

[01:27:30] Will: Even the, the, the youth suicide helplines have drops during the school holiday periods of young people calling because of stress. Um, in Australia, the, the rates of suicide, uh, for young people [01:27:45] are highest on Mondays, uh, days of the week, and then that goes down and then back up on Sundays. It starts to increase on Sundays, and Mondays it goes back up.

[01:27:55] Will: Um, in the United Kingdom, emergency room [01:28:00] visits, um, for young people, um, is, uh, totally correlated to, like even Easter long weekend, it goes down. Um, and so there was something I started looking at in, in relation to school. Now, I [01:28:15] know that when you survey kids, and this is all self-report data with kids, so trustworthy kind of, maybe not, that one of the biggest causes of stress in their life is school performance.

[01:28:27] Will: Now, something happened [01:28:30] in, uh, particularly Australia and the US, um, from about 2008. Obama introduced core curriculum into the schools. Australia introduced, uh, what we joke about, it's called NAPLAN. It's their kind of [01:28:45] standardized testing. We call it NAPALM here. Um, but there is something that I think the schoo- the schooling system, and again, I'm, I'm not [01:29:00] anti-education by any means.

[01:29:03] Will: There is something that I think we have to start taking a very critical look at, um, because the narrative of once we get tech out of schools, [01:29:15] everything will be, will go back to utopia. I- I have grown more concerned that there is something almost, and I, again, I'm, I'm trying to check myself to not being a [01:29:30] fearmongerer about this or create a moral p- or be- become the moral panic that I'm against There, there is something that is not working for kids.

[01:29:41] Will: Or, uh, uh, like, uh, uh, in, let's just say the [01:29:45] Western world about education. Education outcomes aren't improving anywhere, um, no matter how much longer we force people to study. Um, and so there's a, there's a really interesting conundrum. And so when [01:30:00] I look at You know, I don't, I don't wanna-- We don't wanna go back and talk about social media more, but the irony is when kids are out of school, they should be on te- like that's when you'd assume they're on more [01:30:15] technology that is harming them.

[01:30:16] Will: But the further you get children from school, the more at a population level these incidents of emergency room visits for, for self-harm related or suicidal ideation, and even suicide [01:30:30] rates for young people go down. And so I actually think there's-- it's, it, it's kind of really-- I, I think we have to take a critical look at this, um, as we keep, uh, as, as we, [01:30:45] as we live on Planet Mental Health and we're talking about it all the time.

[01:30:48] Will: I think there's something that is, that is going on that's maybe not making the news, um, and not making the headlines like other things are. But I don't know. I find it, [01:31:00] it's, uh, it's really alarming to me. I, I, uh, I think it's, uh, um, I, I think there's something about the places that we're putting kids that's-- I, I don't have an answer for this because I don't-- I know that we all want our [01:31:15] kids in school, and we all need a break from our kids at the same time.

[01:31:18] Will: Um, I mean, mine are young adult kids, and I need a break from them sometimes. So, but I think that it, it's something really interesting to me that we-- like, if we knew there was a [01:31:30] place you could put your kids that would increase their rate of self-harm or suicidal ideation, I think that would be alarming on a level.

[01:31:38] Will: And I don't mean it's causation research. It's just a correlation. I don't know which way is [01:31:45] which, but, um, I think it's something that, um, I don't know, is of public interest, I guess.

[01:31:52] Stephanie: I don't wanna speculate if my speculation could be sloppy. Um, I don't wanna be [01:32:00] cavalier about such a serious topic.

[01:32:02] Will: Mm-hmm.

[01:32:02] Will: Yeah.

[01:32:03] Stephanie: But I think there are a lot of things that we could point to that aren't working about schools, uh, a lot of it being social, um, not [01:32:15] just in terms of how the education itself is run. I wouldn't expect the relationship between free time outside of school being spent on screens and [01:32:30] youth suicide rates or, uh, attempts or hospitalizations, I wouldn't expect that relationship to be so linear Um, in the sense that, you know, with school it's, it's kind of easier [01:32:45] to infer what the rhythm means, right?

[01:32:47] Stephanie: If, if suicide rates peak in September and on Mondays and, you know, according to that rhythm of the school calendar, you can almost viscerally relate to the sense of dread [01:33:00] that the young person who's being bullied, for example, has in that. Whereas with, um, you know, with s- with the impact of the internet on youth mental health, [01:33:15] in the short term it might have a pacifying effect.

[01:33:18] Stephanie: It might not create sense of urgency. It might dampen a sense of urgency. That doesn't necessarily mean that the long term it's not detrimental to mental health, um, if that's sort of the thing [01:33:30] that they're always going to, uh, rather than things that are more constructive. Um, so I just wanna kinda treat the subject with appropriate gravity and [01:33:45] humility.

[01:33:45] Will: I totally agree with you. I, I think that there is... To s- to step away from, from, um, the emergency room and those sort of things for a second, there's something [01:34:00] Interesting about le- let's say psychotherapy and, and schooling that for the most part, if we, if we look at psychotherapy outcomes, just meta-analytic data as a whole, the first meta-analysis ever was [01:34:15] 1977.

[01:34:16] Will: Outcomes have not improved 1% since then. Now that's-- What's interesting is if we looked at Freud, right? Let's go back 100, whatever, 20 years or whatever, um, 130 years, [01:34:30] and, uh, you and I were, let's say we were privy to watching Freud conduct a session and, and we just muted the television and we're watching Freud work.

[01:34:40] Will: Virtually the only difference you can find about psychotherapy [01:34:45] then versus now is people don't usually lie on the couch as often as Freud had them do, and, uh, maybe eye movements and tapping and these sort of newer things. Still no improvement in outcomes. [01:35:00] The thing with school is we have the introduction of technology, right?

[01:35:04] Will: You know, chalkboards became whiteboards. You know, they have tablets. Th- everyone's using education tech. I mean, I was in high school when laptops rolled out, and [01:35:15] then we did everything on a laptop. Um, so there's been that shift. But all in all, the, the schooling system has not changed since compulsory school was brought in as an experiment, which was [01:35:30] brought in 100-something years ago.

[01:35:32] Will: You know, it's a fairly new experiment. Um, you know, the Founding Fathers, uh, not many of them went to compulsory high school. Like, I think Benj- Benjamin Franklin invented the printing press in, as a [01:35:45] teenager. Like there are, there's an interesting different way that we did look at youth as, um, as people that were crew.

[01:35:56] Will: They're a part of the society instead of [01:36:00] being a passenger of the schooling system, which is a compliance-driven model. And so what's interesting is there are some, there's some data from schooling, like for instance, the, the youngest child in, in, in a, in a [01:36:15] classroom is significantly, as in statistics, more likely to be diagnosed with ADHD than anybody else The youngest child.

[01:36:25] Will: So we have a narrative that this is a real condition that, [01:36:30] uh, we have no biopsy for, by the way. But it just so happens if your child's the youngest in the classroom, they're most likely to be diagnosed with it. That does not make sense, right? Um, and so we, we have a compulsory schooling system, [01:36:45] and I'm not like-- I'm all for school.

[01:36:47] Will: My, my kids were very good students somehow. I don't know. Like, they, that was just, they, they loved school, and they're, they're nerdy kids. I don't, I don't get how that, how that happened when I'm the worst [01:37:00] influence in the house. But I, I think there's something that we could all take a real critical look at with kids and, and youth and, and when it comes to youth mental health and where we're putting them, um, in [01:37:15] life.

[01:37:15] Will: So that, that's, that's my soapbox about school.

[01:37:17] Stephanie: All right. Well, on that note, I think we'll leave it there for today. We've covered plenty of interesting ground, and thank you so much for helping me round out the conversation about teens and screens. [01:37:30] Um- Teens

[01:37:30] Will: and screens. That would be a good book title

[01:37:32] Stephanie: maybe.

[01:37:32] Stephanie: Teens and screens.

[01:37:33] Will: Yeah.

[01:37:34] Stephanie: I, yeah, I decided, uh, that this conversation and the previous one, I'm gonna call it Teens and Screens Part One and Part Two. Cool. Two different perspectives.

[01:37:44] Will: As I said [01:37:45] before, I just, I, I, I really appreciate being able to wrestle with these ideas and, uh, and to, and, and I appreciate the, the challenge and the, and the, and the, and the poking holes on, on how, how, you know- It helps all [01:38:00] sides to, uh, round out the ideas.

[01:38:02] Will: So I, I, I am very grateful for the time and being invited back. I really appreciate it.

[01:38:07] Stephanie: Likewise. I, I think, um, you know, your voice, my voice, Dr. DeSouza's voice, we're all representing [01:38:15] so many people, parents, educators, mental health providers who are all grappling with these ideas. You know, I'm not necessarily committed to most of the things I say so much as I'm practicing vocalizing them to see [01:38:30] how they sound and, and what kind of pushback they receive, so I think we're exploring them together as a society.

[01:38:35] Stephanie: Um, thank you so much again for joining me, Dr. Will Dobud. Remind people where they can find you.

[01:38:40] Will: Yep. I'm, uh, I'm pretty-- As I, as I think I said last time, I'm a pretty big open [01:38:45] book, so I, I love connecting with people. So, uh, my name is very unique, so if you Google it, you will find stuff up- out there. Um, I do have a Substack that's pretty fun.

[01:38:57] Will: That's much more psychotherapy-focused, [01:39:00] uh, for the most part. Some making fun of social media research, but, um, uh, mostly psychotherapy-related. Um, and then, um, yeah, I'm on all the social media, so if you just search my name, you'll, you'll find me out [01:39:15] there. Um, so yeah, um, please connect and, and, uh, join the conversation.

[01:39:21] Will: That's the-- As I said, the best part of my job is, is getting to talk to people. It's the-- It's what I have the most fun doing.

[01:39:28] Announcer: All right. Well, thanks again for joining me. It's [01:39:30] been a pleasure.

[01:39:31] Will: Absolutely.

[01:39:34] Stephanie: Thank you for listening to You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist. If you enjoyed this episode, kindly take a moment to rate, review, share, or comment on it using your [01:39:45] platform of choice.

[01:39:47] Stephanie: And of course, please remember, podcasts are not therapy and I'm not your therapist. Special thanks to Joey Pecoraro for this awesome theme song, Half Awake, and to Pods by Nick for [01:40:00] production. For help navigating the impact of the gender craze on your family, be sure to check out my program for parents, ROGD Repair.

[01:40:11] Stephanie: Any resource you heard mentioned on this show, plus how to get in touch with [01:40:15] me, can all be found in the notes and links below. Rain or shine, I hope you will step outside to breathe the air today. In the words of Max Ehrmann, "With all its sham, drudgery, and broken [01:40:30] [01:40:45] [01:41:00] dreams-"