You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist

[00:00:00] Kim: I chose to believe in his soul, and that is a completely different energy than worry, anxiety, fear. He felt the difference. It went very fast. When I shifted from fear and worry [00:00:15] energy to believing in him, he shifted.

[00:00:19] Announcer: You must be some kind of therapist?

[00:00:25] Stephanie: Today I'm welcoming back to the podcast my friend Kim O. She [00:00:30] is a coach, uh, specifically calls herself a relational soul coach, as well as an author, and she's previously appeared on this podcast on episodes number 80 and 101. [00:00:45] Uh, Kim O, welcome back to the show. Always good to see you.

[00:00:48] Kim: Hi, Stephanie. So glad to be back.

[00:00:52] Stephanie: So, uh, as you know, and as some listeners might be following along, I've gotten to meet so many incredible people through doing this podcast work that [00:01:00] it's not always necessary to bring new people onto the show because, uh, there are people I've talked to before who it's, it's great to talk to again. And when I extend those invitations, I don't always know what we're gonna talk about.

I just know that I enjoy talking to you and that you're probably up to something interesting. [00:01:15] Um, so we were just having a nice little behind-the-scenes chat. You were showing me the, uh, parent and teen workbook journals that you've made for your clients. So I wanna, um, sort of frame up this discussion for our listeners with the understanding that you are [00:01:30] one of a very small handful of people I know who do anything remotely similar to what I do.

Um, you know, when I'm not recording these podcasts, which I only do once a week, I am primarily working with parents of ROGD teens and 20-somethings. [00:01:45] And you also work with those teens and their families. And so it's not every day I get to talk shop with someone who's in that same world of coaching these families, [00:02:00] and I'd just love to talk shop with you today.

Um, part of our behind-the-scenes banter, we were talking about the idea of believing in the kid's soul, and I'm really interested in getting into that conversation.

[00:02:10] Kim: When I started talking with parents and teens, I [00:02:15] really noticed s- a parallel with my own parenting of my own child when he was a teen. So yes, they have this added challenge of the ROGD, but I had a very [00:02:30] stubborn, um, very confident, very know-it-all, uh, son, and, uh, he also had a father, we were divorced, kind of giving him messages about me that weren't so kind.

And so it [00:02:45] just felt like an uphill battle, so I can relate to that feeling of just utter despair and worry and anxiety, and it was overtaking me. Uh, my son's now 24. I can say that, um... and [00:03:00] he's doing great, and we have a phenomenal close relationship, and I do believe it's because of some of the attitudes, mindsets, and just what you just said.

I chose to believe in his soul, and [00:03:15] that is a completely different energy than worry, anxiety, fear. And it was my opportunity to, you know, grow and practice that, what I would call consciousness, [00:03:30] um, love, um- tuning into my higher self. And, um, it really made all the difference in the world in my relationship with him and in my relationship with myself and how I [00:03:45] then showed up in the world, to be honest.

[00:03:47] Stephanie: You describe your son as willful and spirited and as having been a real handful when he was younger and thriving today. And I, I wanna, I wanna, you know, speak up in defense of the willful, [00:04:00] spirited, even oppositional child, the defiant, maybe the highly sensitive child. I was that kind of kid, and I'm proud of the person that I've become.

And I think these kids, they get a bad rap because they are frustrating, and parents can [00:04:15] feel challenged by them, bowled over by them, have their limits tested. Parents can Uh, have more growth required of them by the willful, spirited, defiant child than [00:04:30] by an easier kid. Um, and so they can get a bad rap for all those reasons.

And if parents aren't careful when dealing with that kind of temperament, um, they, the kid can really end up ruling the household, um, [00:04:45] and the parent can surrender their parental authority prematurely when that's not really what the kid's growth demands. It might be what feels easier in the moment, um, but it's not really what's necessary.

Um, [00:05:00] but, you know, when I think of a willful, spirited child, I, I think of someone with a lot of energy, passion, life force, someone who maybe has a sense from an early age that they're here to do something important, and that [00:05:15] can manifest as grandiosity, um, which can- ... can be you know? I had a lot of grandiosity in youth.

I, I still have, like, under, under pressure, when I'm under attack, I go manic. You know, if someone comes at [00:05:30] me, yes, I will appear like a narcissist for a moment, because I'll puff up, right? Sort of like, like animals do, right? If you come at them. I'm like a, like a peacock or a, um, a porcupine, right? Some of us have that [00:05:45] reaction to stress, where we get bigger in reaction to it.

Um, and so yeah, like in youth, the grandiosity, the, the ego, the disconnect from reality, the, the know-it-all energy when they clearly know very, very [00:06:00] little. They know less than they ever will. You know, all of those things can be really off-putting. Um, but I think that sometimes these energies point to a kid with a lot of potential, who [00:06:15] needs the right help molding that potential.

And of course, only so much of that help can come from parents. They're gonna need other types of mentors, and there are some messages that, that can only come from people they respect outside of the family. [00:06:30] Um, but I just wanted to take a moment to stand up for these, these kids and, you know, even knowing, like, I am raising one of these kids myself and, and it, it has its, its moments, for sure.

Um, what are your thoughts on that, [00:06:45] Kim?

[00:06:45] Kim: Yeah. Well, so I'm gonna plug my little journal. So I created a journal for the teen and for the parent, and I can share more about that in a minute and, and why I did that. Um, but it says on here, "A teen's [00:07:00] journal of self-celebration and connection." And so you're tuning into this space that I came in, you know.

I'm a very introverted, thoughtful person, and so in Making [00:07:15] these contacts with these parents and these kids, I recognize we're losing out on the celebration of a teen. Those years are so incredible, and part of what I talk about in, [00:07:30] in this book as well is the neuroscience of the brain. And the teen years, the emotional brain, um, is really activated.

So is the survival brain. The executive brain is not in quite full function yet. [00:07:45] It's under construction. So in the teen years are the highest, most intense emotions that you ever really feel. And so that's important to know, but also to kind of [00:08:00] celebrate and allow the kid to have these intense feelings, and it's, it's really how you react to them.

And so the journal does bring a lot of this up, but that's why I think it's important in the journal, [00:08:15] I get the teen excited about being a teen, and what is your role? What is your job as a teen? And then we talk about what is the parent's job Of parenting a teen. Um, but even before [00:08:30] we get there, it's more, you know, I ask questions in the journal that really inspire, um, some curiosity, some exploration, and some fun.

And it's really non-threatening. Um, so I know a [00:08:45] lot of these families don't really know where to begin or how to connect, and I'm sort of creating that way to connect. But let's celebrate these teens. Let's celebrate this time. I mean, all of us can admit, you know, [00:09:00] when we hear a song from our youth, d- doesn't it just bring you back?

It brings you back with all of the emotions- ... all the feelings that you had. It can literally take you back to that moment. And so that's the phase they're in right now. [00:09:15] So we can have understanding for them as a teen, and I actually have that in the journal that you might know what it's like to be exactly like your kid, but you know what it's like to be a teen.

You know what it's like to have intense [00:09:30] emotions. You know what it's like to, you know, wanna rebel and, um, you know, not be buddy-buddy with your parents. You know what it's like to just want that autonomy and to do whatever you want. Like, you know what that feels like [00:09:45] to be a teen. And so I think it's really important to remember that and honor that and, you know, provide opportunities for that.

I mean, really, for a parent, that's kind of what we do. It's kind of finding that middle road, [00:10:00] right? Buddhism talks about the middle road. It's finding that middle road of balance, of giving them autonomy, but also having really strong guardrails so that they are safe and protected and make it through this teen years, you know?

[00:10:15] And so one of the ways that I do that, and, um, I'm just gonna, you know, go right there, is I call it a check-in and connect once a week as a family. You could call it a family [00:10:30] meeting. You could give it some sort of fun, glamorous term. I think with couples I've coached, I called it the, um, dragon slayer ritual.

You know, slaying your dragons, whatever. But anyway, it's check-in and connect. And [00:10:45] again, kids may buck up against that, but that's okay. You're not to be always liked as a parent, and you do things to, um... It's your opportunity to share [00:11:00] with each other, hear each other, understand each other, and kind of cleverly drop little nuggets into their structured, um, framework that they've created for themselves.

You know, [00:11:15] my son was a know-it-all. He, he was arrogant, and so I had to get very clever to try to inject new information into this youthful brain of his. And that's why I feel like my [00:11:30] approach is, I would call it clever. Um, it's safe and non-threatening. They don't even know it's coming. They don't even know what's happening.

They just know that they're meeting with their parents and they're ask- answering some funny questions and, and [00:11:45] journaling about that, or journaling about what are they good at, or what's a bummer day like, you know? I have questions like that in the journal, and it just opens up so many different directions you could go with that, [00:12:00] and that's kind of what happens in coaching.

I'm sure you could say the same in counseling. Um, a simple question, a powerful question can just take you in all kinds of different directions. And I always find it so funny, at the end of each, uh, coaching session, especially with the [00:12:15] kids, and I'll say, you know, "What was the highlight of our time together?"

And the answers you get are so bizarre, aren't they? Like, they're so... It's, it's nothing I would ever think struck them. Like, [00:12:30] I remember one time I was coaching this person, um, and- We just slightly mentioned something about her grandfather, whom I know as well, and that was her [00:12:45] highlight because she learned something about her grandfather that she didn't know and it was just so cool for her.

So that's the fun thing about teens too, they surprise you. I love being surprised. I love learning something new from them. I love getting [00:13:00] into their brain and hearing what they have to say. And so it's a way to get in there without, um, being scared to get in there. I think at this time with this, uh, gender idel- ideology topic, I think parents are actually [00:13:15] afraid to get in there and hear what their kid has to say.

So this, this provides, this provides a framework. I find that too. I find that parents just are so overwhelmed, and I get it. I felt overwhelmed with my [00:13:30] kid and so I can share a little bit about that, exactly what I started to do with my kid. Um, but the... it's such an overwhelmed feeling. It's almost like you're treading water and you can just barely come up for air.

Um, and there's just so many [00:13:45] different ways and I should say it this way and I need to do this and all of that. And then I just whittled it all down to what you said. It started with, "I'm gonna believe in his soul." At least I can believe in that [00:14:00] because I wanted him to feel positive energy from me. I wanted him to feel belief energy from me because all he was feeling from me was worry, anxiety, um, fear.[00:14:15]

I was afraid my son was gonna be a narcissist. He was going down that track. And you know, he had his time with his dad and then he had time with me, with me, and I knew that all I can control is his time with me and I [00:14:30] need to model. But I also knew energetically, like you know how when someone's so focused on you, you can feel that energy and it's almost stifling.

It's almost like, "Get off of me" . And I feel like that's what [00:14:45] happens with the ROGD kid. So if they can just feel some relief, some breathing room. So we can start with let's believe in their soul. And so the opposite of believing in their soul is having, "I'm so [00:15:00] worried about them." I, I mean the parents I talk to, they're just so anxious and I get it.

I was too. And so I've always been that person. I was meant to be a coach because I had to stop and go, "I don't like how it feels for me to be in worry and [00:15:15] anxiety and fear. This feels really bad." And I've learned a lot, enough To know that I can shift my mindset. I can shift this. And so I had a [00:15:30] faith that I was raised in, so there were certain verses that I clung to, and I'll just share one of them was from Jesus where he said, "Don't worry about your life.

Do not worry about your life." And I'm the type that, okay, I'm gonna take that seriously. I'm gonna actually believe [00:15:45] because I'd experienced miracles in my life. I had experienced when I did believe in things like or, um, quotations like, "Do not worry about your life." And this is why I like the stoics and the sages.

They have quotes because [00:16:00] they were living life, too. They felt fear and worry. They saw people in fear and worry, and these quotes, if you embody them, if you take them in and make them your own, they can shift your life. And so I did. I was like, "I'm not gonna worry about his [00:16:15] life," or, "I'm not gonna worry about him.

I'm gonna believe in him." And so I'm kind of this silly girl, and so when we would get into it, first I had to stop reacting, so I really had to practice that self-control and not [00:16:30] react to his nastiness 'cause trust me, it could be really nasty. And, um, I would just look at him, and I would just visualize, oh, that's his wound speaking.

That's his pain speaking. That's not my kid. [00:16:45] That's not the divine spark that he is. That's his pain. So from that space, then I had compassion. So you have to see them with compassion before you can then move on to the next step. So I was like, dang, this kid must be really [00:17:00] hurting to be saying what he's saying, to have the tone he has 'cause that's not the truth of him.

The truth is that he's actually love. He's pure love. It's just hidden from all this pain. So from that point in my head, I'm just believing in his soul, and I'm [00:17:15] looking at him, and I'm like doing little cheers in my head. Um, this is my method. This is what works for me. Everybody has their own way of helping you stay in that energy of believing in him.

Sometimes it's a gesture. Maybe you just put your hand [00:17:30] on your heart. Um, you know, whatever it is you need to do. Some people will like pinch themselves to remember, no, I'm believing in him, and I'm like cheering. And maybe you have a song that helps you, and you're singing it in your head. Maybe you have a verse [00:17:45] to believe in him and believe in his soul, and all I can say is it's p- powerful, and it's...

I call it magical pixie dust because he felt the difference. It went very fast when I [00:18:00] shifted from fear and worry energy to believing in him. He shifted. He shifted And things just started to calm down, and I think he just felt that resilience. [00:18:15] Like, it's believing in him rather than having pity on him.

Who wants pity? Who wants like, "Oh, no"? We don't want that. We want empowerment. So I believed in him, and of course it wasn't perfect, and [00:18:30] I'm not perfect. Um, but that's the other thing that I have in the journal too, is I, I basically talk about... In the Parenting Journal, there's extra pages for parents.

Otherwise, a lot of it's the same, but I talk about it's okay to be [00:18:45] imperfect. In fact, I want you to be. And I almost look forward to those opportunities where I lost my cool, and I would just stop and say, "I totally lost my cool. I'm so sorry. I, I raised my voice. [00:19:00] I don't like raising my voice. I don't want to raise my voice.

That's not fair to you." And he was right there with me hearing that, and I, I would give the full apology of like, "I raised my voice. I'm really working on [00:19:15] this." And I would even bring him in on a solution like, "Hey, this seems to happen every time we are doing this or we're talking about this. You know?

What, what... Is there a signal you can give me or like how you can help me? Like, 'Oh, Kim,' or [00:19:30] 'Mom, you're, uh, you're starting to go there.'" Um, so he feels the humanity of me, but he also gets to ex- experience restoration. What does that look like? What does conflict resolution look like? It's not [00:19:45] about canceling someone the moment they don't act the way you want them to.

That will never work. You will never have healthy relationships. Um, so, so I would do that and, [00:20:00] and then at the end after I've completely apologized, I would say, "Now, you had a part in this, too." Because that finishes it because he did have a part. He was being nasty. But once he heard my [00:20:15] apology, then he could actually hear and connect with me and, and acknowledge, "Yeah, I was, and I'll work on that, too."

So, you know, there's ways to get clever and to get even the most confident, [00:20:30] know-it-all to soften.

[00:20:35] Stephanie: Hmm. I like when you said that you almost look forward to those moments that gave you an opportunity to apologize. Now, this is the [00:20:45] good news, right? That, that you don't have to be perfect because relationships get stronger through this process of rupture and repair.

There were so many moments that you were talking that I had some little comment I would've loved to [00:21:00] interject, but I was like, "Oh, she's on a roll. I'm gonna hold it all back. I got my list here." Oh, good. Um, 'cause we might be able to circle back to it at some point. But, you know, on that last note, it reminds me, I have a, a client inquiry form that people can fill out if they're interested in [00:21:15] working with me.

So I was looking at a new client intake document from a client I haven't even met yet, and in my intake documents for new clients, I ask some question about, you know, what do you think you could do differently? What do you think the [00:21:30] process of change might require from you? Or if you could go back in time, what would have you done differently in the past?

Some questions like that. And, you know, here's the mom filling this out. I've not even met this person yet, but I see an answer along the [00:21:45] lines of- I think I've been, you know, overly intrusive as a mother. I've been in my kid's business too much. I'm always trying to give advice," something like that. And I read that and I'm like, "Great, we've got material to work with already."

I [00:22:00] mean, here's something that the mom is telling me she can own up to. That's material for what I call a strategic apology. So, so what you call being clever, I like that because there's a lightness. There's, like, a lightness and wittiness and playfulness in the word clever. I think the word [00:22:15] strategic, my complaint about it is it feels a little heavy and calculating.

Um, but I do use the word strategic when I'm doing parent coaching and an ROGD repair in the sense that I wanna convey to people, "Hey, your kid's not done yet, okay? [00:22:30] And, and they're in a particular state of mind. You have to be careful with that state of mind. You can't be all willy-nilly with it. They don't have the ego strength and maturity that you have.

You don't wanna mess this up, so be strategic." But I like your word clever. So, you know, on that [00:22:45] note, I teach something I call strategic apologizing, and that's where you look at what can you genuinely take responsibility for here, right? 'Cause your kid's gonna be coming at you with all this aggression, however that manifests.

Maybe, maybe they're [00:23:00] nasty like your kid was. Maybe they're passive-aggressive. Maybe they express that aggression in other way, ways or through pulling away, but they have their grievances with you, and they've mixed up the idea of [00:23:15] gender identity with all of their other grievances. So it, it gets to the point where whatever goes wrong in a kid's day, whatever emotion they're feeling, all roads lead to gender, right?

Their brain [00:23:30] starts to look through this filter of everything is about my gender. "I have a stomachache. It's because of my gender," right? "I'm PMSing. It's because of my gender." Whatever the problem might be, it's my gender, right? So parent-child relational problems become [00:23:45] excessively mapped to gender as well.

And so you as a parent are actually doing something strategic and wise when you take responsibility for the places in your parenting that you could have done [00:24:00] better And you own up to that and you issue a strategic apology for that, right? You're absorbing some of the blows of the aggression, of the grievances that they're naturally gonna be looking to express as part of individuating from you, and you're helping them build the emotional [00:24:15] intelligence of disentangling this mass of knotted up emotion that's been uninsightfully just linked to this idea of gender, right?

You're taking all of this complaint energy coming from them [00:24:30] and helping them without, without arguing with them at all, right? While blaming yourself, you are saying, "Oh, this is actually something I should've, could've, would've done better, and I apologize and I see how that affected you." By doing that, you're actually helping untangle the knots in your [00:24:45] brain, in their brain.

You're giving some place for that aggression to go, and you're starting to introduce the opposite of learned helplessness, the opposite of the victim mentality, which is the idea that I can actually solve my problems, including relationally, which is one of the biggest [00:25:00] parts of life, including through language, which is what separates the humans from the apes, right, is our advanced linguistic capacity.

Um, I can, if I have a problem with someone in my life, if there's something not working for me here, [00:25:15] we can communicate and we can deal with our problems and we can change things. And oh, that thing I didn't like, um, that always just left me feeling so frustrated with my parent, you mean there's a way to negotiate that?

You [00:25:30] mean there's... I can make a difference in my life? You start doing away with that helplessness and that victim mentality. You start giving them the feeling of real problem-solving, and they start to develop a taste for that, and real confidence. I mean, there's, there's so much good [00:25:45] that can come out of that relational repair.

[00:25:47] Kim: I, I love that you recognized when I said I looked forward to it, and I honestly did, because I knew he needed to experience humility in action. And yeah, I, I [00:26:00] can honestly say I messed up a lot, but I also did well a lot because I did the restoration. And I really, I kept thinking about how I want, I just, I [00:26:15] so look forward to the day when I hear him talking to his kids with that full apology and owning up to where he made mistakes.

You know, and then I'm sure I got obnoxious about it because then we started to really, you [00:26:30] know, get along great and, you know, I was going through my healing journey and I would remember times that I really felt like I wronged him. And I would, I would, um, call him up, call him up, send him a text and be like, "Dude, I [00:26:45] cannot believe...

Do you remember that time that I took your hat? I threw it out the window." Just different things like that and I would say, "I'm so sorry for that." And he just, by that time, it's so beautiful 'cause by that time he didn't [00:27:00] need, he doesn't need the apologies anymore. I still do them, but he doesn't need them.

The, the love is now there. The trust is now there. It, I actually wanna share this too. So it probably came from a very [00:27:15] astute, amazing counselor that I had in my, um, 30s, I would say my early 30s and he would share with me how every week he would say to his kids, [00:27:30] "How did I do at loving you this week?" And they would share with him, and then he would ask, "How can I improve?"

And I was just blown away by that. And so I, I guess I wanna give credit to him [00:27:45] for really instilling in me this idea of literally taking time to communicate with your kid in a family meeting or like I'm calling it, the check-in and [00:28:00] connect, where you each have a journal, where you e- get to spend some time alone, and then sharing your answers together.

And I really do believe children, kids, teens, they do want to be seen so desperately. [00:28:15] They might, like, act like they don't wanna be seen, but they do wanna be seen, and they wanna be understood, and this is their opportunity. But it is also the opportunity for the parent to be seen and understood, too. And I think that's really important, because we've [00:28:30] made-- We've created a world for so many of these kids where it's just all about them.

And yes, they have an immature brain, but you have to start planting those [00:28:45] seeds and, and you described it so well. 'Cause to me, I believe, like, I created these journals to fight against all of the main points of gender ideology. Canceling people, not being able to [00:29:00] discuss a hot topic with someone, being hurt by discussing a hot topic with someone.

I address all of that in my clever little way in this journal. And so, um, it's really slowly planting those seeds. [00:29:15] And as many are-- many detransitioners will tell you It's always shocking and surprising the last straw that caused them to just give up the ideology and detransition. [00:29:30] And I'm fascinated by those stories, and I believe in those stories, and so that's why I believe in their soul, because you don't know what little seed is gonna take root and just be the last straw where they, they can't hold onto it.

Because [00:29:45] here's what I can tell you, and this is, this is positive news for you parents. It's low vibration. It's low energy. It's lacking in love. It's lacking in joy. It's lacking in peace. So [00:30:00] yes, kids who are enraptured by it are in pain, because it just, it's void of those things. It's void of common, you know, truth in neuroscience.

It's, it's void of [00:30:15] truth in, um, healthy communication. In order to uphold that ideology, it's in all of these negative, low vibe, uncomfortable, [00:30:30] gross feelings, and you can only hold onto that so long before it just takes you down. And, um, so when we start practicing the belief energy- [00:30:45] And really, I know parents, uh, they all just wanna focus on the kid.

Um, that's why my favorite way to coach is to coach the kid and then the parent, and I literally am sharing with the parent what I just did with their kid. Because the parent needs it too. [00:31:00] And so they're learning and they're growing, and everyone's growing at the same time with all these truths, um, that are light and love and joy.

And it's just so diametrically [00:31:15] opposed. So I do believe in the power of love, uh, the power of love. I believe in that energy, um, and that vibration, and that it is stronger than, than the negative energy.

[00:31:27] Stephanie: Your trans-identified kid won't listen to [00:31:30] reason because reason isn't what they need right now. They need a parent who knows how to communicate in an empathic yet strategic manner.

ROGD Repair gives you over 120 lessons in the psychology and [00:31:45] communication tools that actually work when normal parenting doesn't. Plus Repair Bot, your 24/7 AI coach trained on my entire body of work, ready to help you navigate tough moments in real time. Visit ROGDRepair.com and use code[00:32:00]

SOMETHERAPIST2026 to take half off your first month. You're helping me connect some dots as we're speaking, and let me see if I can articulate

this in a way that makes sense, [00:32:15] 'cause I don't know if it's gonna make sense when it comes out of my mouth. But, um, you know, earlier, Kim, when you were saying you know what it feels like to be a teenager, parents, when you were saying all of that, I made a little note. [00:32:30] Some parents never rebelled, and I wanted to talk to you about this particular kind of parent that I've seen really struggle.

The parent who never went through a rebellious phase and now has an entitled, ungrateful, and yes, rebellious [00:32:45] teenager. That parent, oh my goodness, do they struggle, and they have a really hard time relating to teenage rebellion, but there's an important developmental process that they missed out on by not rebelling.

And these might be successful people by all worldly standards. [00:33:00] They might be conscientious and hardworking and, you know, have y- you know, financial security. But if they themselves never went through a rebellious phase, then it make-- then [00:33:15] there's an empathy gap with their child, and I think there might be something that's missing for them, too.

And, and as I'm trying to put my finger on it, I'm thinking about this Jordan Peterson lecture that I accidentally listened to last night. So before we hit [00:33:30] record, I was telling you how I accidentally started listening to this Jordan Peterson lecture. I was listening to something else, and it, like, pocket dialed this particular episode, and I'm like, "Okay, I guess I'm listening to Jordan Peterson now.

Let's see what he has to say." And in this lecture, [00:33:45] you know, he's Jordan Peterson. It was two hours. He went all over the place, right? All over the place. Um-

[00:33:53] Kim: But we love him so much.

[00:33:54] Stephanie: Um, we do. Um, but he was saying, and if [00:34:00] anyone wants to look it up, it was, like, released in late July on his podcast, but it was originally recorded as a live lecture in 2024.

Uh, he talks about, about some Bible stories. Um, he... I, I'm gonna [00:34:15] butcher this. I'm not fairly representing what he said, but he said something about how the spirit of adventure and the voice of conscience are both God within us. Um, [00:34:30] God telling us what to do, right? God directing us to act in faith. Um, again, whether it's something in us that says, "I'm gonna go, you know, go out on this limb that I'm called to walk out on.

I'm, [00:34:45] I'm gonna go risk my life and do something that's never been done before or something that looks impossible because of some calling in me." Whether it's that or whether it's that little voice that tells you right from wrong that you can either ignore or listen to. Um, [00:35:00] and that consciousness in us that he says is God talking to us, compelling us, um, I think is linked with the spirit of rebellion, [00:35:15] and that's, that's my interpretation, right?

He calls it the spirit of adventure, but I think rebellion is just the sloppiest, most raw and immature form that [00:35:30] this energy in us takes in youth when we're like, "I know I need to do something with myself, with my energy. And I know that in order to do this, it has to be different from what I was taught, 'cause [00:35:45] if it, if it matches what I was taught, then I'm just...

What am I? Am I even a unique individual? Am I... Is there anything special about me or am I just, you know, doing what my parents or my teachers or my religion or my whatever taught me to [00:36:00] do?" So in youth it takes the most immature form it'll ever take, but I think there's, there's a, a, an impulse there that is leading us toward finding our calling, our [00:36:15] purpose, and that m- I, I'm maybe even gonna take the position, I, I, I'm not clinging to any of these positions, I'm thinking them through as I speak, but that, that we can't truly find our purpose [00:36:30] without some of the messiness that comes out in that process.

And so it makes me wonder for the parents who never rebelled, for the ones who are having a really hard time finding any empathy for their child who is rebellious and ungrateful and [00:36:45] entitled and grandiose and fragile And who themselves are maybe conscientious, responsible, hardworking, but maybe not super individuated, maybe not deeply spiritual.

Um, I, I [00:37:00] think there's a blind spot for them and something that gets really triggered by seeing that part of their kid that's trying to grow in that way. And I think those are the parents who, from my perspective, sometimes seem to have the [00:37:15] hardest time with this faith in their child when we talk about believing in the child's soul, which is, I think, a really crucial part of the parent coaching work that I do.

I was telling you before we started recording, and I'll say to my audience, there [00:37:30] are a number of factors that I'm looking at when I'm performing some background mental calculation on what is the likelihood that I can help this family, right? 'Cause I have parent coaching clients coming to me all the time.[00:37:45]

Always meeting new people, looking for my help. I'm only willing to work with so many people at a time. I like to go deep. I don't do one-offs anymore. I'm like, "We're either doing this eight-week series or I'm not even gonna bother because I need to get to know you. If you're not willing to invest the [00:38:00] time with me to really get to know you, then just sign up for my course.

Do the homework on your own time," right? If you wanna work with me one-on-one, we're gonna go deep. I'm gonna really get to know you. And in that coaching work, as I'm getting to know someone and their family [00:38:15] and I'm like, "Okay, can I help them? What's the chance that this is gonna work?" There are a number of factors that I'm looking at that are kind of going into those mental calculations, and one of those factors is Do I feel [00:38:30] fondness for the kid as the parent describes the kid to me?

Can I tap into the parent's love for the kid, their vision for the kid, their faith in the kid's potential? Does the parent have within them [00:38:45] a vision of who their kid is capable of being? And that's not the same as a prescription. That's not the same as, "My kid needs to be a doctor. She needs to marry a lawyer."

Like, it's, you know, it's not that, right? "My kid must always live [00:39:00] within 30 miles of me in Georgia." No, I'm not saying that you have a vision for the walls that, and constraints that you need to box your kid in. I'm saying, like, do you have faith in who that person is at their core, and in the fact [00:39:15] that they're in a process of becoming?

And do you see that you have a really important role to play here? You are their creator. You are literally their creator. You are the creator of this being. [00:39:30] Do you as their creator have faith in the fact that they're not done yet, and there, there's something a- as mucky as this process is, as ugly as they're being right now perhaps behaviorally, do you have [00:39:45] faith that there's something in them that's trying to emerge that's good here, and that requires you to water the right seeds?

Not just pull the weeds, which is very tempting, 'cause those weeds can be big and nasty and ugly and really get all your attention. Not just [00:40:00] pull those weeds though, but water the seeds of the flowers and fruits that you wanna see.

[00:40:04] Kim: Yeah, absolutely. And, and we know what can get in the way of that, um, I believe is, you know, like, like you said, it could be they weren't [00:40:15] rebellious, um, when they were a kid, but also, um, there's guilt.

There's people struggle with self-forgiveness. So that's why I love The opportunity to coach both the [00:40:30] kid and the parent because all of those challenges come up. I mean, that's-- I believe the beauty of life is trials come for us to see, oh, I could heal that. [00:40:45] And, um, like I was sharing before that I was just filled with so much worry.

Now, I can relate to not being rebellious because I was not rebellious as a kid. Um, I toed the line and I was-- I, uh, because I experienced childhood trauma [00:41:00] at the age of four, I was afraid to actually be myself, so I was very careful to toe the line and not, you know, make a mistake socially, at school, um, [00:41:15] and in general.

So, um, I can relate to that, and now I just feel like I'm just so much more free. Um, but you keep bringing back what I feel is such a good metaphor is planting these seeds [00:41:30] so that your kid can have roots, and I think it's a really beautiful metaphor to imagine that your job as parent is to plant these seeds, and these are [00:41:45] really powerful seeds that root your kid.

And, you know, I'm just gonna share that That was one thing I felt like I did have as a kid was roots, [00:42:00] and we went to church every Sunday, and I'm not a churchgoer today. But we went to church every Sunday, and I thought about how even as a kid, I'm in Sunday school and I'm singing every week, "Jesus loves the [00:42:15] little children, all the children of the world."

You know, every week I'm getting these really profound teachings about being loving, being kind, with a story to follow with it, and [00:42:30] seeing my parents going, and all of us being in the car together. And, you know, all those things that happened in the car. The whole family's in the car to go to church. You know, and sitting, even sitting in the pew the older you get, and just what could [00:42:45] happen between siblings there, and just the whole experience to me was very rooting and it was, it was creating a foundation that became unshakable.

So even though I don't follow the faith of m- of my childhood, it's so [00:43:00] powerful the experience of that leadership my parents had in knowing. Because what I'm realizing with these kids, they don't even know, I don't even know if they know love your neighbor as yourself. Like the [00:43:15] golden rule. Do unto others what you would want done unto you.

I don't think they know that, and that is a, a seed that will take root where they'll actually care that others [00:43:30] are treated well, that their parents are even treated well, um, rather than this idea of just being so sensitive and vulnerable to any offense, you know? So that, that is part of my journal as well is I throw [00:43:45] in really poignant, um, quotes from s- uh, sages and stoics and maybe even from the Bible.

Um, but I go from even poets. There's a few in there from some poets [00:44:00] that I really love to really just contemplate and maybe put into your own words. What does that mean to you? And so to me, that is rooting these kids so that when the strong wiz co- winds come, [00:44:15] they won't be blown down. But I feel like they were taken in by this gender ideology because somewhere there's just missing that, those roots.

And I also believe that we were just all blindsided by social media and the impact [00:44:30] of it, and not knowing how strict we needed to be with it. Uh, um, thank God the research is happening now where we're understanding, you know. Like you had a guest on, or you're gonna have a guest on, I might have had access to it [00:44:45] sooner, but there will be a guest that talks about where he basically doesn't believe kids should have any social media

[00:44:51] Stephanie: at all

[00:44:51] Kim: ever.

[00:44:51] Stephanie: Oh no, that's an episode that just came out. You're talking about Johann de Souza.

[00:44:56] Kim: Yeah. And I'm in a full, I'm in such full [00:45:00] agreement because of the deterioration that I'm seeing in kids and families, and so what happens is without... So let's say there weren't strong seeds planted, uh, but even if there are strong seeds [00:45:15] planted, it's very hard for a i- an immature brain to handle social media.

They actually are designed to not have self-control right now. It's the executive brain of the parents that has to come [00:45:30] in and create those guardrails because they do not have self-control. That's one area where you do not want them to explore their rebelliousness. Um, so I was gonna share too, I loved how we were sharing about rebellion, and I [00:45:45] was just, I'm a, an adventurous type of person.

And so I remember my son telling me one day, "You were the fun parent." And I found that so odd because his dad is actually pretty fun, but I was the [00:46:00] fun parent. But I realized, yeah, I took my son on trips where we could be super wild and free, and you know, I have this silly side, so we would go there, um, whether we're swimming, um, when we're, whether [00:46:15] we're in the car.

So I'm the type of parent that would, um, create games in the car rather than him, you know, on a iPad or something. We're playing, uh, I called it first cactus, last cactus. So [00:46:30] here in Arizona, in Phoenix, we have saguaros, and when you drive up north to Flagstaff or Sedona- There's, you have all these saguaros and then they just get, keep getting less and less and less.

And so we'd both be looking out the window for when you saw [00:46:45] the last cactus. And then on the way home, who sees the first cactus, saguaro cactus? Um, so I was just always doing things like that. In a restaurant, I would bring Uno and we would play Uno. So these seem minor, but [00:47:00] they're huge. They're huge. You are connecting with your kid.

You are... To me, when you're playing a game You can actually talk about different subjects or ideas will come [00:47:15] up or... You know what's funny too? Um, I'm a hairstylist as well, so when I'm cutting my son's hair, I'm not the type of parent that asks my son a lot of questions. He does not want to be asked questions, but when I'm cutting his hair, he tells me everything.

[00:47:27] Stephanie: Hmm.

[00:47:27] Kim: I know everything about his life [00:47:30] when I'm cutting his hair. So that's also my advice, is to have so much fun, to play. You know, take the ski trip, get out on the boat, go overseas, um, turn off the [00:47:45] phones, have them off for six weeks. You will have a different kid. Um, and, and I do see that. I'm sure you see that too.

I see that over and over again when parents get their kids out in the environment for an extended period of time. It's amazing. So [00:48:00] I might have gotten off on a tangent there, um, but I think really powerful, important little nuggets for parents to... You know, I didn't care if, if a, a kid may buck up against you, but if you just, [00:48:15] like, bring that Uno game, play the game, they'll like it.

They really will. Like, I think most kids do than not. I would also... So it's, uh, so easy to do this now, but, um, in my last relationship, he had daughters, and when we would go on trips, [00:48:30] I would come with a stack of cards with questions, goofy questions, and that's part of my journal. I have goofy, super goofy, silly questions in here because it brings up other topics.

And the kids, they [00:48:45] all liked it. It was really fun. We, we would all have to answer some crazy question that I came up with. So it's ways to celebrate their individuality, their u- uniqueness, and that everyone has a different answer, but [00:49:00] also, you know, get curious, um, learn something about them, and have fun.

[00:49:06] Stephanie: So easy to forget to have fun and to forget that kids thrive on fun. Sometimes it feels like there's just some, like, [00:49:15] point in time when things broke, and a family just stopped having fun, and it was kind of an abrupt transition. The thing is, when you're not doing fun things, you notice what the kid is doing that you don't like, and that's usually the screen stuff, right?

And then you can end [00:49:30] up in this power struggle where suppose you have given your kid an electronic device and you haven't set clear limits and expectations Then [00:49:45] what I hear a lot of is suggestion-based parenting.

[00:49:51] Kim: Yeah.

[00:49:52] Stephanie: Um, I wanna, I would just wanna remind parents of teenagers, as a default rule of thumb, it's not true 100% of the time, but it's [00:50:00] true more often than not, your kids don't care about your suggestions, right?

Your opinion has been noted. If you think they ought to do this rather than that, it's, "Yeah, whatever, okay." Suggestion noted. They're too [00:50:15] smart

[00:50:15] Kim: for that. They know. Like, they know they can walk all over you. They know they can bulldoze you. So- Make no mistake.

[00:50:23] Stephanie: And the thing is, like, you have to be very clear on what is up for negotiation and what is not.

If you [00:50:30] make something sound optional, it's going to be treated as optional, right? So it's actually the kinder thing to do to set very clear limits, and then give options, right? If, if the device... So [00:50:45] with, with devices, my kind of general rule is wait as long as you can to give it. If and when you do give it, never create the expectation of privacy or unlimited use.

So from the outset [00:51:00] of giving a device, this is not a private space, and your use is up to me. I can give it, I can take it away. Like, starting rule might be X amount of time per day or week, but I can change that [00:51:15] number. Um, also important that time can be taken away, but you're never gonna get extra time as a reward, because that sets up the device as the reward, and it's already rewarding [00:51:30] enough in the wrong ways.

Um, so it's not like if you do something good, you get extra screen time, and that's your reward. So we wanna have an upper limit that's solid and a lower limit that, that is contingent on behavior and how they [00:51:45] seem to be handling the device responsibly or not. So those are my kind of general principles around giving kids access to devices.

Um, but w- when you see this sort of suggestion parenting and the power struggle, the parent with weak boundaries, the parent who's not [00:52:00] able to simply set the rule that they're comfortable with and enforce it, then it's like the c- parent starts complaining and criticizing the kid for being on their device, and the message is not at all clear to the kid, because from the kid's perspective, it's like, "Well, this is [00:52:15] what I wanna do.

Are you saying I'm b- a bad kid for wanting to do this? What are you saying?" Right? And it starts getting really toxic in the relationship, rather than the parent setting clearer, firmer boundaries from the beginning And then there don't, they don't have to be [00:52:30] any of these suggestions, and if the device or whatever the unwanted behavior is is off limits, then the options you're giving are all options that you would be happy for them to choose between.

But my point in saying this is that it's really easy to notice when your kid is doing [00:52:45] something that you don't like to see them doing, like burying their face in a screen. But it, but what we have to remember in those moments is have we created an environment where that's the lowest common denominator, where that's what we do by default?

'Cause if we have, that's our [00:53:00] responsibility, and we have to both set clearer limits, but also think about, well, what, what should be happening instead? And that's where the fun part comes in, right? Yeah. Where like if we're in the car, are we playing a game? Like, I am, I'm a Punch Buggy enthusiast. [00:53:15] In our household, I am, I'm never not playing Punch Buggy, and we

[00:53:21] Kim: pa- What is that?

I don't know

[00:53:21] Stephanie: what that is. Slug Bug? Slug Bug?

[00:53:24] Kim: We-

[00:53:25] Stephanie: It's where you hit someone when you see- Slug Bug, no return? ... a VW, a VW Bug.

[00:53:29] Kim: Oh, yes, stuff [00:53:30] like that. Yes.

[00:53:31] Stephanie: Like, I- Yes ... I'm never not playing Punch Buggy. Like, we could be having the most serious conversation. I don't, the kids could not, it could just be me and my husband.

We could be having the most serious conversation, "Punch Buggy orange." Like, I am, like I never s- I [00:53:45] never quit, okay? Uh, now we play Cyber Slap and, um, on our road trip, we invented Waymo WAP, which comes with a song, which the, makes the kids groan. But it's, um, "Waymo WAP, Waymo WAP, Waymo WAP, Waymo WAP," [00:54:00] in the jungle, the concrete jungle, the Waymos drive themselves.

Um, yeah, I mean, it's, it's like, it's easy to lose our humor, our [00:54:15] playfulness, our, our creativity and imagination, and then we enter this downward spiral and kids are bored. And it's 'cause you're not engaging enough and we're not, yeah, and, and, and there is a lot of pressure on families though, on parents to do the entertainment.

It's because families are smaller and busier, because your kids [00:54:30] have fewer siblings, right? There's less free roaming. That does create an environment where y- it's, it's almo- it, it's almost like this manic degree of pressure on parents to be constantly entertaining their kids. So I don't wanna sound like [00:54:45] I'm not empathetic toward the struggle because I really am.

Like, it's, like you, you have all these adult responsibilities to manage, work, home, finances, health, medical, maybe even legal. You got all that stuff, and on top of it you gotta be like, "Oh yeah, [00:55:00] kids have an appetite for fun, and am I supplying the fun? Do they have access to fun?" 'Cause if you have two kids instead of seven and you're in this nuclear family in an age when kids aren't just going outside to play, um, then there really is [00:55:15] more pressure on you to be coming up with the creative ideas.

[00:55:18] Kim: Yeah. No, I love that. I think we're speaking the same language. Um, I have to throw in there, I would even f- I, I just made up games, so like the alphabet, take any [00:55:30] topic. You have to name a fruit. I would start with the letter A, then he'd have to do B, then C. Like- I play that same game ... I was constantly doing that, and then we would get crazy, and cities or, you know, it just, um- Yep

it's, it just keeps things light [00:55:45] and it keeps connection. But it's also okay for them to be bored. But I was gonna say, this is where pets, I think, come in.

[00:55:51] Stephanie: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:52] Kim: Pets are, uh, phenomenal for them to have chores. You know, that's the other thing, we're doing too much for [00:56:00] these kids.

[00:56:00] Stephanie: Mm.

[00:56:01] Kim: Um, they need chores.

Don't have a house cleaner. Get rid of the house cleaner. I mean, you really want your kid to know, um, pers- personal responsibility, doing their own [00:56:15] laundry, like all of that, I think is really, really key as well, because that's something to do too, and then to make it fun.

[00:56:23] Stephanie: Hmm.

[00:56:24] Kim: I mean, let's watch Mary Poppins.

Let's make life fun.

[00:56:28] Stephanie: I, I see a lot of people [00:56:30] struggling with that, and oftentimes there's some kind of rationale of like, "Oh, but they work so hard in school. I wanna provide for them. I wanna..." And, and w- what I... M- my philosophy on this is, and, and I will say this to [00:56:45] kids, and I will give this to parents to say to their kids, is, uh, life is gonna th- throw you a lot of curve balls.

Um, there are gonna be periods where you're really busy and you're juggling a lot of responsibilities. You might be in college and working a job and dating someone [00:57:00] new, and like member of a club. You are gonna have a lot on your plate. And all the domestic stuff, the like- hygiene and chores and all of that basic stuff, you want that [00:57:15] functioning on autopilot.

You don't want that to be adding to your stress. You want it running smoothly in the background, and you wanna be going to the gym regularly or doing your workouts or whatever so that you can focus on the things that [00:57:30] really matter to you without your health or your home falling apart, with your fridge and your chest of drawers fully stocked.

Um, we need to get you ready for that now. So the idea [00:57:45] that, you know, putting away your laundry or vacuuming your room or whatever it might be is like, ugh, such a burden, that's gotta go because this is easy peasy. We need, we need to get you to a point where you've done this thousands of times. You know you can [00:58:00] do it quickly and easily.

You know that you can listen to your favorite podcast while you're doing it. Like, this part needs to be easy, and as long as you're showing that you think this is hard, that just means you need to do it more until we can see that we're on the same page, that you [00:58:15] know that this is easy. You know you can maintain these areas of your life no problem, and focus that, oh, this is so hard, uh, energy of struggle on things that are actually hard.

[00:58:27] Kim: Yeah. I mean, you just reminded me of the quote, "Prepare [00:58:30] the child for the road, not the road for the child." And I have that in my journal too. It's just such a good reminder. You're preparing your child for the road because the road has so many curves and twists, and [00:58:45] y- um, you don't wanna create a perfect road for them.

You don't. Um, you wanna just prepare them for that conflict, for the fun, for all of it, for life, and, [00:59:00] and that's such a beautiful foundation to give them. But there's another quote that I love. It's, um, "Life has 10,000 joys and 10,000 sorrows." And I swear, if that quote was taught to me as a kid, 'cause I believe I would've been receptive to it [00:59:15] because Even now, when I'm going through a season that's really sorrowful or hard, I just know it's not gonna last, and then there's joy around the corner, and [00:59:30] that truly is life.

It's like you're gonna have joys, and then you're gonna have the deepest sorrows, and then you'll have another joy. I mean, it just keeps going, and everywhere in between. But to me, that is a great foundation to [00:59:45] teach your children from the beginning. Um, I've got some parents that I know that at the end of each night with their little girls, they talk about the rose of the day and the thorn of the day, and [01:00:00] I just-- I tell these parents, "You guys have to know how impressed I am with you," um, just that they came up with that and they do that.

So their kids are able to self-reflect and go, "Yeah, the [01:00:15] rose of the day was when we, you know, went to the park," and blah, blah, blah, and, "What was your thorn?" You know? And lookit, it's the end of the day and they're okay, and they could talk about both of them. And, um, I just think that that, that needs to be [01:00:30] reinvigorated.

I don't know if that's a correct word, but reinstitutionalized into our parenting, just these moments of getting clever and creating connection and sharing [01:00:45] and celebrating where each is at in life.

[01:00:48] Stephanie: Kim, at the beginning of our conversation when you were talking about your journal, um, and celebrating this chapter of life called adolescence, [01:01:00] I really appreciate that reframe 'cause it's so easy for teenagers and those who love them to get caught up in what's the worst about adolescence, right?

It's so easy to go there, [01:01:15] and it's so easy to overlook what's, what's special and precious about this unique juncture in life. And you had mentioned what is the role of the teen and what is the role of the parent of the teen as processes that, um, you [01:01:30] know, dialogues that you have with your clients and, and you have some reflection questions in your journals, um, about that.

I'm curious, what would you say is the role of the teen or the role of adolescence itself?

[01:01:44] Kim: Well, [01:01:45] let me turn to that in the book, so you're getting a sneak peek into the book. So again, know that I create a structure before I just ask a question like that. You've been asked other questions and been prepared [01:02:00] to answer it.

So I get t- I'm asking the teen and the parent, they both answer, "What's a parent's job?" And there's a space for them to answer it. And what is a teen's [01:02:15] job? And so the teen's job, this is what I wrote. So I have them answer, and then I also share my thoughts as well. But there's a rule in doing the journal is you can't turn the page [01:02:30] and see what's on the other page before-- until you ans- you're ans- you're answering the question yourself.

So I wrote for the teen Explore, experiment, fall down, get [01:02:45] up, make mistakes, receive guidance, resist guidance, walk, run, rebel, dance, crawl, laugh, cry, and love. That's the job I have for the teen. Okay, so again, [01:03:00] I, I'd love it if you thought about it yourself, and then hopefully if you watch this and then you get the journal, you kind of forget about it and you can just be in this space and answer it in your own way.

But the parent I wrote, "Believe in and foster resilience. [01:03:15] Encourage curiosity. Be a soft place to land. Listen, understand. Allow autonomy and challenge. Enforce guardrails. Model healthy behaviors. Be [01:03:30] perfect and imperfect." So those were just my ideas and thoughts, and, um, it's just, it's just so fun to ask someone first and then be like, "Well, this is what I came up with.

You know, did you have similar answers? Did you have [01:03:45] different answers? Um, would you-" You know- Yeah, go ahead ...

[01:03:49] Stephanie: you know what is striking me right now about what's so clever, to use your favorite word, um, about those questions, Kim, is just the [01:04:00] fact that you're asking a teenager at all, "What should your parent's role be?"

Like, even before we get to any particular answer, whether it's an answer you supply or an answer they supply, because teenagers find it 1,000 [01:04:15] times easier to reject what, what's a no than to identify the one thing that's a yes. And they often completely blindly, uh, set up double binds, no-win [01:04:30] situations. Um, and this is a feature of borderline personality disorder, but it's also just a feature of teenage behavior, and that's one of the reasons that I teach parents the concept of the double bind in my course, and I design communication techniques [01:04:45] specifically for double-bind situations.

Um, but because teenagers are so prone to putting their parents in no-win situations, asking the teen, [01:05:00] "So what should your mom or dad do?" is a radical question. Like- Very ... like it actually makes them think Because there's a part of them, you know, what do you want from mom or dad? [01:05:15] Well, you want things that some part of you knows are kind of crazy things to want, right?

Like, th- th- that's not a thing mom and dad are gonna give you, right? If, if... Let's take, you know, forget, forget the gender identity nonsense 'cause that's a whole new can of worms, but if you just take [01:05:30] classic teenager issues, okay, you wanna stay out till 2:00 AM, you wanna drink and drive, you wanna, you wanna have sex at 14.

I mean, whatever crazy thing a teenager is pushing for, um, [01:05:45] if you ask, should your mom and dad allow that? That, I would think, would get the gears turning a little bit more than the question, "Well, what do you want?" Right? "What do you want?" "I wanna be able to do whatever I want." But if you ask, "Well, what should [01:06:00] the role of the parent be?"

There's some part of the teenager that's like, "Well, no, that's not right. Their jo- Shouldn't be to just let me do whatever." I mean, may- in some teens they are gonna be, they are gonna say, "Let me do whatever I want." Right? That is [01:06:15] gonna be their answer. But I think some of them, it's gonna get their gears turning just to, just to ask them, because it's, again, there's a thousand things they can say they don't want.

Okay, but what do they want that actually lines up with what [01:06:30] a parent's role realistically can and should be, and who they know their mom and dad to be and to not be as people.

[01:06:38] Kim: I love how you said that. They, it gets their gears turning, and you want that [01:06:45] And it's, you have to figure out ways to get their gears turning to have them thinking differently, and you have to get clever with it.

That's what I believe. And I clearly, it's part of my gift. [01:07:00] I'm, I'm really good at taking profound information, profound quotes, profound concepts, life-changing concepts, and making them digestible. And [01:07:15] not only digestible, but even fun in the process. Um, I just have that ability to do that. And so I think there's a place for that, and I think we all have a purpose, and that happens to be one of mine.

And so it's a thrill for me to make things like [01:07:30] this and to show up on your podcast and share because I get to be me. I'm being me. And so that's what we wanna do with our kids. When you ask questions that are clever, um, it can kind of [01:07:45] steer the conversation to go in the direction you want it to go. Um, it's just so exciting what can come out of that.

[01:07:53] Stephanie: Let me ask you this, and if it's the wrong question, we can delete it. But, um, do your teen clients know that [01:08:00] you do things like come on my podcast and talk to transphobic bigots like me? Air quotes, people. So

[01:08:09] Kim: I use a different name-

[01:08:11] Stephanie: Hmm ...

[01:08:11] Kim: for coaching. But it's so [01:08:15] funny. I was talking with, uh, Laura Becker.

She also is a, a coach for ROGD kids and parents. And so we, we're, we are in contact quite a bit, just kind of sharing [01:08:30] ideas, sharing our thoughts, just the support. And in the beginning, uh, I feel like a lot of parents have been stripped of their power, um, because of the environment, social media, and, you [01:08:45] know, a lot of them don't even feel comfortable telling their kid, "We've got a coach or a counselor for you to see," and the kid will do the research and say, "No, I'm not seeing that person."

So they usually-- I help them come up with [01:09:00] a script to tell their kid, if

[01:09:02] Stephanie: that's the scenario, and to use my name that I just go by Kimberly, '

[01:09:08] Kim: cause I

[01:09:09] Stephanie: never use that name. So I'm Kimberly to the kid, and, um,

[01:09:14] Kim: [01:09:15] because I'm kind of a different kind of coach, kind of a soul coach, you know, kind of off the beaten path type of coach, we can also present it in that way as well, and it works, it works well.

But invariably, [01:09:30] um, that's what I was talking to Laura about, is they, they're gonna find out invariably that

[01:09:38] Stephanie: I'm, I'm not for

[01:09:40] Kim: the transition of children. Like, they find out. I, I don't like it [01:09:45] to come out 'cause to be honest, I don't talk about gender at all. It might come up from the kid, um, in our coaching And, um, you know, I handle it the way I handle it.

I listen and I understand, but I feel like if [01:10:00] you get into the weeds of the gender part, then you're gonna miss out on all the nuggets and, um, the cleverness of getting, like, underneath it. And so kind of steering [01:10:15] away from it, to me, is kind of the best way to do it, and that's, that's kinda how I do it.

And I always start with whoever I coach, I call it authenticity map. So I use different personality, um, structures. Um, [01:10:30] I'll even use astrology if people are comfortable with that, Enneagram, to really get a grip on who everyone in the family is and kind of their uniqueness, and I'm all about celebrating, uh, who someone is, their, their, um, [01:10:45] their way of being, their, their way of emotionally reacting.

Um, you can kind of learn that about yourself and do it in a way that isn't, "You're like this." It's not like that at all. The way I [01:11:00] do it, it's almost, like, exciting and people get very excited about, "Oh, yeah, I am like that. Yeah." And then from there you're feeling good about yourself, then you can kind of look at, "Oh, these are the areas where, um, yeah, I do [01:11:15] struggle with that, and I could do that differently."

[01:11:19] Stephanie: I, I wanna piggyback on that last point because you're, you're raising an issue that comes up a lot, and I'm glad you mentioned it. You know, when I was a teen, [01:11:30] we had teen girl magazines with ridiculous little personality quizzes in them, you know, in addition to things like, um, horoscopes and things like that.

And I think there's a reason that these types of things [01:11:45] appeal to teenage girls and young women in particular because First of all, as women, as females, we have a gift for relational, holistic perception, [01:12:00] uh, a gift for communication and emotion. Our brains are more complex and nuanced in those regions than men's brains.

There's more cross-hemispheric connection in our brains, whereas for, for men, [01:12:15] the connection is more between the front and back of the brain. We use more words to describe emotions and relationship dynamics. And during adolescence, that part of a girl's brain is developing so rapidly. That brain... That part of [01:12:30] everyone's brain, girls and boys, is developing rapidly.

But for girls, the relationship and communication piece is such a big part of who we are, what we're here to do. We're [01:12:45] here to relate. We're here to connect, to emote, to love and be loved, to understand feelings. And so, you know, I think teenage girls, since before this current social contagion, is al- have always been drawn to things that offer some kind of [01:13:00] structure or scaffolding for that tendency.

You know, whether it's astrology or the Enneagram or Myers-Briggs, it doesn't matter if this stuff is evidence-based or not. People set aside that, set aside that part of your brain for a minute and just listen to what I'm saying. [01:13:15] We're drawn to things that give us a language for speaking about archetypal human experiences.

Tarot is in that category, too. Look, I don't care if you think it's witchcraft, uh, because you're religious, or I don't care if [01:13:30] you're the most scientific atheist and you think it's all baloney. I don't care about that. I need you to listen to what I'm saying about our psychology as human beings and as girls and women.

We use language to communicate our inner world and to communicate about [01:13:45] other people's inner worlds, and it's really marvelous that we have this ability. And it, and it's part of our gift as women because we are nurturers of life, because we, we need to be able to attune to the emotions of others, [01:14:00] because we give birth to children, and they are little balls of emotion, and most of it does not come out sounding like rational speech

So, um, I am speaking out in [01:14:15] defense of women and girls' openness and our fascination with personality quizzes and, uh, and things that give us language for archetypes and emotions and all that kind of stuff. I [01:14:30] don't care if you don't respect that, listener. And in fact, I'm even gonna go so far as to say that I've met certain people who are so biased against that kind of stuff that it conveys a certain sexism to their [01:14:45] daughters So cut it out if that's you, because if you have an ROGD teen daughter and you're looking down on that stuff as silly, you might be part of the problem here.

Okay? So in defense of women and girls' love of [01:15:00] things that give us language for psychology, relationships, communication, and all of that, in defense of that, what's the point I'm trying to make? My point is that, um Girls' brains [01:15:15] are going through a revolution in adolescence of rapid growth and pruning of the ability to conceptualize these things.

And there's a fascination there, and that fascination can become [01:15:30] unproductive, self-centered, narcissistic, and navel-gazing, even solipsistic. But it can also be part of what prepares us to have rich interpersonal lives, which i- the, and that's the [01:15:45] foundation of, of health and happiness. So, um, you wanna let your girl, especially a girl, have some healthy outlets for this fascination, and cleverly steer her [01:16:00] away from the unhealthy aspects.

And the thing is, the gender identity nonsense gives her a lot of unhealthy, um, saccharine facsimiles of this, right? So all of the different l- [01:16:15] terms, the made-up terms, the made-up flags, right? These are appealing to the same trait in your daughter as the, you know, Seventeen magazine personality quizzes and [01:16:30] astrology horoscope columns appeal to.

Um, and it's part of the reason why when I describe the sort of personality clusters of these girls, um, this tends to be the girly girl. This tends to be the straight, normal girl [01:16:45] whose deepest fear is of being basic or of being not attractive enough as a normal girl, and so she turns trans to get a sense of specialness.

That girl has a different profile than the girl who is [01:17:00] naturally tomboyish and likely to be same-sex attracted, 'cause that girl That tomboyish, same-sex attracted girl. She dresses like a slob [01:17:15] and wants to do adventure sports, and, um, she has a girlfriend. Okay? That is a picture, that is, that is a, an archetype of a girl who is the daughter of many of my clients.

But the girly girl [01:17:30] who flips and identifies as trans and denies that she's a girly girl is fascinated with the labels, and the pronoun pins, and the hair colors, and the convoluted explanations for why she can wear [01:17:45] eyeliner and still be a boy. Okay? That girl is gonna love Kim's workbook, is my point.

Okay? Because these girls need, need ways to be fascinated with the inner world, and ways to seek a [01:18:00] language and a conceptual framework for it, and they're, they're trying to develop emotional intelligence here. That's my point.

[01:18:08] Kim: I would also say the, the, uh, tomboy-

[01:18:12] Stephanie: Mm ...

[01:18:13] Kim: also [01:18:15] You know, I do, I do authenticity mapping on every client.

Mm. And so it's not that I, I don't push any of this on anyone, but I will start with a Myers-Briggs personality test. It's a 10-minute test, um, developed by [01:18:30] psychologists. And just for the people out there who are kind of bucking up against that, understand that your teen is in identity confusion stage.

Again, I go back to basic [01:18:45] Psychology 101 that is somehow lost, but they're in the stage of identity confusion. So again, I'm giving them some seeds with roots, because what we do is they take the test. A [01:19:00] teen can take that test. Takes 10 minutes, and they answer questions. Kids love answering questions about themselves.

We come up with a result. We talk about the result together. That's a whole session. Your teen is telling me, [01:19:15] "Yeah, I'm like this. No, I'm not quite like that." I'm learning so much about them. So see it as a tool for sharing, for exploring, for learning. But what I also believe is so phenomenal about this is they [01:19:30] are stuck in a world where, um, a man looks like this and a woman looks like this, and I must be a man because I have these traits.

But when you do personality, it's male or female. It doesn't matter. You can have a [01:19:45] male that's this personality type or a female that's this personality type. And so it's to kind of get rid of some of these, um, gender stereotypes that they, they've been clinging to that says, "I must be-- I'm a girl, but I must [01:20:00] be a boy stuck in a, a girl's body."

So it breaks-

[01:20:04] Stephanie: And you're not doing that by fighting the i- ideology. You're not doing that by telling them- No ... gender is bogus. No. You're actually just feeding the part of them that wants some sort of personality [01:20:15] typing system. You're like, "Okay, well, here's, here's a system," right? You're giving them something else to put that tendency into.

They don't even know that you're steering them away from gender. No. You're just giving them [01:20:30] more language, more tools, more concepts to play

[01:20:31] Kim: with. That's how you do it. That's how it's done. I'm telling you, it's how it's done. You have to do it this way. You cannot attack these teens with their gender ideology.

It has to be through the back door. I, I [01:20:45] really believe that. Um, and, and you plant so many seeds, and just like if you've studied the detransitioners, one day they wake up and go This, this bizarre thing they learned or saw or heard, maybe from their [01:21:00] coach, that made them go, "This is bogus.

[01:21:03] Stephanie: I can't uphold this ideology anymore."

And so,

[01:21:09] Kim: um, you know, there's that sensation you have from the parents too. They just want it so bad, and I get that. Um, but it [01:21:15] is, it is a process, it's a journey, and it's planting those seeds and believing in their soul on that journey as more is revealed to them in these clever ways.

[01:21:27] Stephanie: I love this phrase that we've been working with [01:21:30] today, believing in their soul.

[01:21:31] Kim: That's one thing you can start today, for those who feel so disempowered and in despair. It's one thing you can absolutely take away and start working on.

[01:21:43] Stephanie: Well, I think that's a [01:21:45] beautiful note to end on. So, um, Kim, where can people go to find your journals, to learn about your coaching services, all that good stuff?

[01:21:53] Kim: I just have a Linktree. I have it very simple, so I think you've got the link, and you'll post it in the show notes. [01:22:00] And I also have links to the journals. This is the teen journal. I don't have the parent one right here next to me, but there's a link to it. Um, but my Linktree will have, um... I have YouTube videos that kind of explain what I do.

Um, but [01:22:15] yeah, and, uh, I love creating journals or books to make something that seems very difficult and not tangible, but to make, [01:22:30] to bring it in, bring it close to you, um, and make it easy and simple for you to process. And I do believe that parents are just n- they're in so need of something that just seems simple that I can do.

It's like, okay, [01:22:45] start here. But I will say that depending on your family situation, I do believe that I would need to go through the teen journal with the kid if, [01:23:00] you know, there's just too much strife or you, you don't even feel like you can create that connection.

[01:23:05] Stephanie: Well, um, I'll make sure that your Linktree is in the show notes.

And, uh, thank you so much for another wonderful conversation. [01:23:15]

[01:23:15] Kim: Thank you so much.

[01:23:18] Stephanie: Thank you for listening to You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist. If you enjoyed this episode, kindly take a moment to rate, review, share, or comment on it using your platform of [01:23:30] choice. And of course, please remember, podcasts are not therapy, and I'm not your therapist.

Special thanks to Joey Pecoraro for this awesome theme song, Half Awake, and to Pods by Nick for production. [01:23:45] For help navigating the impact of the gender craze on your family, be sure to check out my program for parents, ROGD Repair. Any resource you heard mentioned on this show, plus how to get in touch with me, [01:24:00] can all be found in the notes and links below.

Rain or shine, I hope you will step outside to breathe the air today. In the words of Max Ehrmann, "With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is [01:24:15] still a beautiful [01:24:30] [01:24:45] world."