You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist

Swell AI Transcript: 75 - Jeremiah Wallace
00:00 Jeremiah Wallace We have the ability to adapt and so do our kids, but harm can be done if that's not done carefully and mindfully. So one of the ways we can be mindful and tend to our children is to have that grace for them when they do return from the other environment, whether they're bringing stuff with them or they feel distance from us. And we feel that distance and it grieves us. It hurts because it's just like, especially as a step parent, we built so many wins. We have so many, so many great things happened. We left on a high note. We were doing really well. And then they come back appearing to be a different person. or to not desire that connection as much. And it's something that can hurt, but we can't take it personally.

00:47 Stephanie Winn You must be some kind of therapist. I am some kind of therapist, and I'm about to take you on a journey through the inner wilderness. I've invited brilliant guests from all walks of life to join me as we investigate, illuminate, and inspire transformation in ourselves, intimate relationships, and the social ecosystems we are constellated in. What you are about to hear may surprise you, so hang on to your earbuds for a hefty dose of sanity in a chaotic world. I am Stephanie Winn, a licensed marriage and family therapist, branching out and building bridges between psychology and everything else under the sun. It's my honor to have you along for the ride. Let's get started. Today, I have the pleasure of speaking with Jeremiah Wallace. He is the host of the podcast, Blended, navigating the blended family experience. He also offers wellness coaching through his practice, Renew You, and he's active on Instagram. at navigating the blend. I discovered Jeremiah's work because I personally relate. And so this episode is going to be a little interesting today because I don't, I like to manage my vulnerability carefully on this podcast. However, as some of you may have heard me express in the past, I myself am navigating the blended family experience as a relatively new step parent. And so I first discovered Jeremiah's podcast when I was looking for resources for people like me. And so I'm really glad that he's here to speak with me today. In the episodes that I've listened to of Blended, Jeremiah does a really good job at taking a grounded and thoughtful approach and getting into granular detail as to various aspects of what it is to be part of a blended family. So I'm going to try not to get too vulnerable today while at the same time picking his brain for wisdom that can benefit us all. Thanks for joining me today, Jeremiah.

02:40 Jeremiah Wallace Yeah, it's an absolute pleasure. And I have a little bit of a goal in pulling out of you some things that you hope.

02:49 Stephanie Winn No, no, it's my podcast. I'm in control. I'm not going to get too vulnerable. We're just here to help my listeners.

02:56 Jeremiah Wallace It's hilarious because those of us that desire to help, we we tend to hold back a little bit. But every once in a while, we let a little bit out. So I appreciate you allowing me on this amazing platform So I can let a little bit out. It's going to be good. I look I look forward to it.

03:12 Stephanie Winn Well and you do a really good job of navigating that balance on your podcast because you are talking about your own personal experiences and the struggles and adaptation of being part of your blended family. But you also do it with so much poise and grace and really kind of being a role model. And that reminds me of one of your principles, which is something I wanted to talk to you today about principles. And I think that even for listeners who have made it this far and aren't part of a blended family, maybe they're not step parents, so they're not thinking this is for them. Honestly, a lot of the stuff that you bring, I think, is just good parenting advice in general. So in terms of foundational principles, you have several episodes of your podcast that begin with creating culture in the home. So the theme of creating culture. And one of those is about this idea of humble authority. And this actually picks up right where last week's episode left off. So this one hasn't aired yet as of our recording date, but it will when people are listening to this. And so I just spoke with a lovely lady named Samantha Stevenson, and her specialty is faith and bioethics. She comes from a Catholic perspective, addressing questions of medical technology and ethics. And toward the end, I was asking her about some of the principles of her faith that ground her. And we're talking about sort of the sins and virtues or the vices and virtues. And we talked about humility. Samantha had this beautiful way of expressing what humility is through the lens of her faith, which is it's not self-deprecation. It's not underestimating yourself or overestimating yourself. It's seeing yourself clearly, maybe through the eyes of God or through the eyes of a loving parent. And so that means sometimes stepping up, stepping into that authority as an act of humility. And I think that that's something where, from what I've heard of your values, you really connect. So maybe let's kind of start with that. What is that concept of humble authority to you and why does it matter in parenting?

05:09 Jeremiah Wallace Yeah, it's essentially making greater making other people greater than yourselves, placing value over other people and not making yourself the priority. And that's in that's in simple terms. And it's something that someone that had a background such as mine may be a bit unfamiliar with when many of us have come from dysfunction, unfortunately, and hardship. And as a result, we are supposed to learn just the most basic and foundational principles for life in that setting, especially years one through four. They essentially set us up for whatever our perspective will consist of moving forward from that point. At that point, every emotion has been expressed. We have also received every emotion available to us at that point in time. So if things are disordered out of whack, then we are likely to have a perspective and a foundation based on that and vice versa. If things are functional and we have truth, we have love, we have patience, all of those things present or fruit of the spirit, essentially present in our home. then our perspective, our well-being, it's entirely different. So as far as humble authority, it's literally placing someone else and their perspective, their experience, considering it and making it a priority. over our own. But that doesn't mean we neglect ourselves entirely, because as you mentioned, there is two separate ends when it comes to the spectrum of humility. There's the passive, like everyone else is super important and I neglect myself or on this, this other end, it's, it's pride essentially. And it's just, it's about me and my acts represent humility, but my heart is far from humility. I'm getting something out of what I, what I do. And as parents, we tend to flow from one end of the spectrum to the other, as far as like, I'm either doing something for my sake, really investing, sowing in these kids into my marriage, into these relationships, hoping for expecting something, but presenting myself as humble, or I am completely foregoing my wellbeing, my desires, the things that I want, the things that I prefer, and I'm putting everybody else first. And that's, it's a slow death. It's crazy how we get to a point where we look at those people's lives and we celebrate them. Most of us have grandmas that are just like these selfless human beings and there's so much to celebrate about them. But unfortunately, there's a number of them that suffered in ways that they didn't have to. if they had taken a moment to really serve themselves and maybe their family in ways would be better off especially when it comes to their daughters if they had exercised or practiced making themselves a priority and exemplified that. So as far as humble authority is concerned it's necessary for us again to put other people and make them a priority. However, as parents, especially, there's a level of authority that we need to exercise in the home for the sake of everyone. If not, then things end up disordered out of whack. And I bring up my past because this is something that I had to learn slowly and painfully, to be honest, as far as being both humble as well as authoritative in the home.

08:49 Stephanie Winn when you really put your children's needs above your own, it's not necessarily going to look like what people have in mind when they think of selflessness because sometimes it means doing something outside of your comfort zone for the sake of your kids. And for some parents, that's giving up the desire for your kid to like you or for them to think of you as their best friend and instead doing what's in their long-term best interest. So exercising that authority in a way that Temporarily, maybe you feel worse about yourself or it feels like a strain on the relationship, but it's still the right thing to do. But I think that can be especially hard. This self-sacrifice can be especially hard for those of us who enter parenting from the standpoint of being a step-parent because we didn't have that whole developmental trajectory. So for my step-parenting, I know you wanted me to get vulnerable and I'm navigating that very carefully right now, but I didn't have that gradual transition into motherhood. They didn't grow in my womb, and I wasn't there for them through all those moments of their complete dependency and helplessness. I entered their life at a stage where they're still, yes, dependent and helpless to a degree, but they have skills and strengths, and they've individuated in a way that is different, and so jumping in as a step-parent, for one thing, we haven't had the practice of becoming selfless because of that unconditional love that you feel towards a being that's gestating in your own body, right? You're jumping in to learning this new kind of selflessness, and also you're jumping into the position of an authority figure when you don't have that history with that kid, when you weren't one of their primary attachment figures. What are some of the challenges adopting this stance of humble authority for those of us who are working our way into a family years into a childhood?

10:40 Jeremiah Wallace Yeah. So as far as humble authority, what I was referencing before, that is me now. Like I've I'm functioning in that capacity right now as far as the ability to be both humble, to recognize that humility is necessary in conjunction with authority. And this is 10 years into my relationship with my wife, nine years married. So functioning as a step parent for nine years, I've fairly recently arrived at this understanding as far as my ability to to illustrate what's happening when I'm thinking about who I was nine years prior to or even a year into my marriage and therefore being a step parent. Man, it is no joke. It is a battleground. It is like the the landmines, the ability to find our footing is so difficult. For anyone that wants to be an effective, a loving, a, like the step parent that they're called to be ultimately, that they desire to be. It's tricky. It's not that it's not an easy thing because when you're approaching the relationship and you think about an ex that's present, you think about children that have this strong relationship with your, their mother or their father. What you want to do naturally as a stepparent is kind of step aside. Like it's a learning process that must transpire in order for us to find our footing, our place, and how we should function as a stepparent. But it shouldn't be based solely on observation. Something that I feel really strongly about is the fact that not, we shouldn't necessarily pursue step parent relationships. Like it's, it shouldn't be the highest priority for someone that experienced some form of separation or divorce to get into a relationship, whether for their sake or the sake of their children. That's, that's a process that should not be rushed. It's not something that should be the highest priority. On the other side, again, of divorce or separation, the priority becomes the child. the children's well-being, as well as getting yourself well. Whoever that person is, both parties involved, get better because what you experienced was devastation. However you want to cut it, however you want to explain it, divorce, separating from somebody that you wanted to either spend the rest of your life with or you created human beings with, it's devastating. for everyone. So what's necessary is a pause and just to re-prioritize whatever the circumstance is. And then if you get to a point where you want to entertain somebody, that individual again, that prospective stepparent is going to observe, but they are also a source of solution because they see things in a way that those that have been in this situation are not able to see things. Yourself, for instance, you come into this situation humbly and you are obviously in love with and you have high esteem for the person you're in a relationship with as well as the kids. You have affection for them that's continuing to grow. But at the same time, you see holes. You see holes naturally as step-parents. We see the deficits, we see the things that have been missing, and that's part of what we bring into the equation. We shouldn't lead with that. We should lead with the humility, but we should also understand that we can and we should function as an answer for some of the things that are lacking. in this situation. So there is a humility of like, okay, I respect what's been happening. I respect people's position, whether people are functioning as mature adults or People are acting wild, like there are some high conflict ex spouses, partners that are just ridiculous. Even in that situation, we are humbly kind of allowing things to digress or work themselves out. We're learning and we're seeing. where we fit in, if we can fit in, because in my opinion, successful outcomes are moving in such a way that serve the best interests of the child and your relationship. Or it's getting out of there early because you understand that it's not going to work, that it's going to be too taxing for you. It's it's OK. And I feel like it is OK to come to the conclusion like, dude, this is This is beyond my ability and pay grade. Either things need to be worked out before I insert myself, or it's just too much. That's also a successful outcome prior to, you know, drawing that conclusion four or five years down the line, to be honest. recognizing again that there's something that existed here prior to me in my insertion but also knowing I can and I should be an answer if I'm going to function in this capacity in this circumstance.

15:53 Stephanie Winn You're describing the first few years of my relationship minus the whole, this is too much. I'm ducking out part, which, which I did not choose. But, you know, I think when you, whenever you're dating a single parent, that's something to really consider because you're not, you're not just considering the feelings of yourself and another adult, you're considering children who might attach to you. Right. But, but you described first of all, how as a single parent, you have to prioritize the needs of your children. And for me, Seeing the way in which my now fiancé did prioritize the needs of his children was part of what gave me faith in him and confidence in him in a way that I never could have seen. I never would have even had the opportunity to see that side of someone who didn't have children. And for me as someone who I was raised fatherless, it was so important for me, so very healing for me, I think, to witness that strength of good fatherhood in someone. But then also the other side of it is no matter how good of a parent someone is, we're all human. And then add to that the struggle of trying to raise kids after divorce on your own part time with triangulation dynamics and little kids feelings and whatnot. And of course, there's going to be some gaps, as you said. And this is part of what's so, it's so bold about being a step parent, right? Is that for me, I think It's been surprising at times to catch myself just so naturally jumping in, because it's like, well, who am I to be jumping in? They have relationships dating back to birth. And here I am, this relatively new person, and yet I see something that feels missing, and my instinct is just to contribute that missing element. Did you find in your adjustment to step parenting, did you find yourself surprising yourself at times, like how much instinct you had to step in?

17:47 Jeremiah Wallace Yeah, because there again, there's this natural opportunity ability as a prospective step parent to see what's missing and what's potentially lacking. And we shouldn't be so quick to provide answers or solutions like we have to respectfully inquire and figure out whether this is something that I should be doing, whether it's something that the person we're interested in are comfortable with, and if it's really at this point in the best interest of the children for me to insert myself in such a way. And I remember when my wife, she was not my wife at the time, I believe. I don't even think we were dating. Yes, yes, we were dating. We had just started dating and her daughter, five years old at the time, four or five, I'm sorry, my math is terrible right now. She was eating hot Cheetos and it was almost a full bag and me being a health coach, mindful of, you know, the value of what we put in our bodies. I saw her just continuing to eat. I understood that my girlfriend at the time was not going to stop her daughter from proceeding to finish the bag. I see this and I'm just like, hey, a couple more and you're done. And what she did is she looked over at her mom to say to say, like, wait, he could tell me what to do. And she said, yeah, a couple more. So there are those in minimal ways and in a progressive way inserting myself. But that's because I did the background work. And what that consists of is, again, this is a delicate situation and what we want to do is to tread carefully at every step, at every stage. And that consists of reaching out to the ex or the mother and father of the child and say, hey, like, This is someone that I'm interested in and we are moving in the direction of establishing a marital relationship like this opposed to, hey, surprise, all of a sudden there's this like other adult in the life of the child. It's respectfully saying, hey, this is this is something that's happening and we want you to be aware of it because it affects the child. There was also taking taking the child aside and saying, Hey, like this is what we're doing. We're sitting down together having conversations inquiring obviously at four years old There's not much you can say there's only so much she could understand at that stage but at the same time presenting that information to her and Then allowing her to reflect opposed to a lot of people don't know What to do what steps to take so it's just insert insert insert. It's abrupt and it can be It's going to be uncomfortable at stages, but it minimizes the surprise of the evolution of this relationship. And as we're practicing to be step parents in the life of these children, it just eases that process. So those are some of the steps. There are many, but those are some of the steps that were taken that kind of served as a platform for me to insert myself and pick those spots.

21:05 Stephanie Winn I love sleep. Sound sleep is a crucial foundation of good mental and physical health, from mood and concentration to metabolism and cellular repair. And I sleep very well thanks to my Eight Sleep Pod Pro Cover. My side of the bed is programmed to be warm when I get in and cool down to a neutral temperature in the middle of the night so I don't wake up overheated like I used to. How would you customize your bed temperature? Visit 8sleep.com and use promo code SUMTHERAPIST to take up to $200 off your purchase. Even if they're already running another sale, this code will get you an additional $50 off. 8sleep currently ships not only within the USA, but also to Canada, the UK, select countries in the European Union, and Australia. Thanks for considering purchases that support the show. So we talked about humble authority and you talked about laying the foundation for developing an appropriate sense of authority with your child. What are some other sort of foundational principles that ground you in blended family experiences?

22:08 Jeremiah Wallace Well, let me talk about my dynamic really quick. So my wife, she obviously not my wife at the time, but she had her first child at the age of 18 and she's currently 14 years old. I, we also have a 10 year old, that being my niece, my wife and I became guardians over her when she was six years old. Her mother, unfortunately struggling with drug use and my brother, her father, was incarcerated for a few years and he got out just about a year ago or so. And then we have our seven-year-old together as well as our three-year-old going to be four in September. So that is our dynamic and we are, we're very blended considering the plethora of circumstance that we face in order to make things work and things have been obviously trying and I think from a male's perspective some of the principles that I exercise in order to do this the right way is It's not a strong suit because of what I've what I mentioned previously as far as my upbringing, but it really is kind of a reordering of my understanding concerning what family is. And this can pertain to family in general, blended family, whatever. I feel like in order to be effective parents, we have to reorder whatever it was that we experienced so that we can be who we need to be in, in our current circumstance. So because there was so much that I had to learn from there even came a point where I, me and my father are pretty estranged. But early in our marriage, I reached out, I spoke with him and I asked him, what are your struggles? What did you experience? Because what I didn't want to happen was his struggles, his whatever generational curses were passed down for me to suffer them and therefore for me to pass them down to my children because I found myself suffering. Suffering with affection, suffering with patience, my understanding concerning what it means to be a parent. Like I grew up in a space where it was like you're seen, not really heard, speak when spoken to, and the absence of expression in our homes as far as whether experience, feelings, thoughts, whatever. So I just really just having to reorder things and allowing myself to do that has been huge for me. And then the understanding of the significance of the marital relationship. It is crucial. We go as a family as me and my wife go. So as far as the priorities that I see at stages prior to like blending your family and coming together post separation divorce, the child is a priority. I do believe again that Whoever is in that situation, they need to take care of themselves, get well, experience their healing, understand what they were subject to as well as what their hand was in the divorce or the separation. It's super important. But the child in that circumstance is a priority. When dating happens, the child remains a priority for the parent in question. But the person dating this other individual, they have to prioritize themselves. They have to keep themselves in mind. They're not yet in this committed circumstance where they're doing things for the sake of the child or even the other individual that like, it's very important. for not to be like off put or, or stand away or whatever the case, but you have to prioritize yourself in order to keep the right perspective. But then when in your situation, you guys are engaged and then at that point you are prioritizing the child, but then when marriage transpires, your marriage relationship is what's most important. So sewing into that relationship and making sure doing everything in your power to make it work and to make it work well, because the family goes as the marriage goes. So those are some of the, those are a couple of things of many that helped me to keep right perspective and functioning as I should.

26:39 Stephanie Winn So you sort of broke down the different stages in a relationship and what's appropriate for each stage. At the beginning, if you are, let's say, a childless person dating a single parent, as I was, that your priority needs to be taking care of yourself and that gradually you take on more responsibility. And I think this is an issue that people navigate in blended families, you know, how much do you take on the burden, the responsibility as a stepparent? And so I know one of your principles is that you refer to all your children as your children. You don't say, this is my stepchild and these are my biological children. So you take that full responsibility and I'm curious for you to share your thoughts as to why that's important. But also, you know, as a stepparent, you don't have that same authority right away, right? We talk about authority and its relationship to attachment bonds. And as someone new coming into the life, that you have to establish that with a child. It's not something that you can assume, and you have to establish it through time and experience. So here's a challenge in our relationship is that I tend to be more assertive and more communicative And so it's my tendency to jump in and do what feels like it's missing, even if it makes me the bad guy. And at the same time, it's so important as a stepparent to get to be the good guy, to get to have fun, to get to, you know, if anything, I mean, triangulation is something we try to avoid. It's going to occur in any case. Yeah, there's a there's a degree to which you cannot avoid triangulation. And I actually want to talk at some point about your episode is my stepchild to face because you have some really valuable insights in that one about triangulation. But as a step parent, like navigating If triangulation is going to occur, I want to get to be the good cop. Why? Because I don't have that same attachment and authority with that child. I should get to be the fun one. And so at what point do I say, you know what? Oh, this isn't my problem. I'm going to duck out and go do some self-care so that I can keep myself well so that I'm still a fun person to be around so I don't burn out or so that my kids don't get sick of me. Right?

28:52 Jeremiah Wallace Absolutely, absolutely. And that's something and that's a good point, because as and this is not something like this is what I've seen as far as who to prioritize at what stage, when this should happen through working with people through seeing the successes and the failures of blending families and whatnot. That's how it's supposed to work. So when it comes to the step parenting perspective, perspective, step parents, whatever the case, Again, we see the holes, especially, especially someone on your end who functions in the area of counseling and providing therapeutic remedies and whatnot. The it's natural to insert yourself, but taking care of yourself, knowing that. I recently did an episode around the savior complex. We have just this desire to make all of the difference, to make things well, to provide all of the band-aids necessary. to keep this thing running and to get it to a point of functionality. But as I mentioned, those are just band-aids. These situations oftentimes need some open heart surgery, and that is a process that takes time. So we're playing the long game. This is not a sprint. So when we're trying to provide the immediate remedies and trying to give the answer today, we are not thinking about how much that's going to require of us and we're not mindful or prepared for tomorrow. And so when we're trying to, for instance, the child in question is on their tablet or something, or they're eating in a way that's inconsistent with, you know, they're not mindful of their health and what should be happening with our family. And we try and insert immediately a remedy so that that's changed and that it's never like that again. When you think about their experience in the other home, you think about what things have been prior to your presence with this, their parent. It's just very difficult to make immediate changes. It's a constant sewing and, and, and not being too invested in outcomes, to be honest for the step parent, but being on the same page. growing together because at some point if you are right, if this is in fact in the best interest of the child as well as your relationship, then they will come to a point of understanding and seeing actually, yes, we need to make these changes because it's important. And is that annoying? Because you were right for the last year or two? A little bit. But that's where the humility comes in. It's just like I'm gonna I am going and you're not like a second rate citizen. Step parents are not second rate citizens. They are just entering into a situation. where there was life lived and something exists existed prior to their presence. But we're slowly creating a new thing and we want to create a better thing, a more functional thing, a healthier thing. So just being patient with ourselves, making sure even nine years into marriage, it's important for me I said, I got to make sure I'm good in order to function in the capacities that I do. I don't have the best relationship with my brother. Fortunately, I have a better relationship with the father of my oldest, but it took a lot of fighting. It took a lot of putting my feet in the sand and just showing up day after day after getting my butt kicked, being the bad guy. And I get what it means to try and be the fun one, opposed to the you know, the potential wicked witch has showed up years into the child's life. So that and that's something that's supposed to be worked out between the step parent perspective, step parent, as well as the parent of the child, like coming to terms with the fact that, hey, like this is what's happening. This is what I'm seeing. This is the trend. I don't want to be this person in the eyes of the child. So we have to balance things out. So you are going to more often, you're going to have to be a little bit more assertive. You're going to have to put yourself in a position where you're the bad guy. You take some of the hits, especially as the man in the relationship. Unfortunately, that's kind of how it goes. But then at that point, it just allows for more balance and allows for the family to move in a singular direction together, opposed to all the missteps that can transpire.

33:34 Stephanie Winn You talked about the savior complex and band-aids on broken legs. And what that reminded me of was the time that I spent working with foster youth. So when I was still working on my internship hours toward my MFT license, I worked at the Native American Rehabilitation Association with primarily kids, most of which had Native American descent. So you're talking about massive intergenerational trauma, poverty, addiction, foster care. And they were almost all DHS involved. And it's so hard if any therapists are listening have ever worked with foster kids, you know how it is, you know that you have some serious difficulties managing your countertransference. You just want to take them all home, right? You see these helpless little kids in these horrible situations, and you're just like, can I adopt this one? Can I adopt that one? No, I can't adopt. I'm their therapist. I have to maintain boundaries. And there's so little that you can do to help them. Meanwhile, they're children. I mean, adults, at least they can take care of themselves, right? But they're children, so they don't even understand the difference between a therapist and any other adult in their life. I remember a little boy I'd worked with who thought that when he was coming to my office for play therapy, he thought that was my house. And so one day, he said to me, when are you coming to my house to play, Stephanie? So in his mind, we were just going over to each other's houses to play. And so it just breaks your heart every single day when you're working with foster kids or kids who have really been through a lot. And you have to get, I mean, there's a high rate of burnout, but also you have to learn to manage your boundaries. And part of, one of the grounding principles that keeps a therapist sane in that situation is just to remember, I'm not ultimately in charge of this child's life. I don't know why in the grand scheme of things, or if you believe in a higher power, like I don't know why this was arranged in this way, but this child's journey is so much bigger than mine. And somehow they're going to find the resources to navigate this. And so I think about that and how step-parenting is relatively easy compared to that because I'm fortunate that my step-kids are well off whichever home they're in. They're not subject to any of the things that those foster kids were going through. And something that I've noticed and that I've talked about with my fiance is with our oldest, he's really good at taking what he needs from any given adult. He's really curious. He's extroverted. He likes to ask a lot of questions. He loves adults. He loves learning from adults and volunteering to help and learning along the way. He'd make an excellent apprentice if we were to go back to an old school model of learning. I can see why kids at his age apprenticed in the past, and I wish that we had more of that. We were having this talk with him. about like you are so good at just taking what's right for you from each adult in your life knowing that There are so many different adults with different perspectives and nobody's right about everything. And I give credit to the divorce in a way for that because I think it kind of forced him to develop that ability of this is what I get out of mom. This is what I get out of dad. Oh now Stephanie's here. This is what I got of Stephanie. So we're using that to kind of prepare him for middle school where we also needed to talk about there are adults We're going to teach you some things we disagree with in that environment. And as much as we wish that, you know, we wish we could have the ultimate say and be like, here's how to see the world, right? Just listen to us. We're the authority. We can't do that. And so we, you know, in our private conversations, we were empathizing with the position that he's in as someone who has all these different voices in his life. life, telling him this is how to see the world. And I will never be anything more than just one of those voices. I might be one of the more important voices amongst the adults in his world, but I'm still just one of many voices saying it's like this or no, it's like that. And so I have to let go. We have to let go and just recognize this child. For some reason, this is this child's path in life to be surrounded by all these different perspectives And it's his path to walk to figure out which of these are right for me. And how do we do that? And how do we kind of, like you say, let go of the outcome while at the same time knowing what are the ideas he could possibly consider entertaining, where we would have to put our foot down and say, no, that's not an acceptable influence.

38:02 Jeremiah Wallace Absolutely. I think it comes down to functioning in their lives. Genuinely, to be honest, you recognize your role and it's not like, Oh, I'm step parent. So I function on the back end. No, you're gonna, you guys are eventually getting married and therefore you are going to be the parent of that child. So, and we, you briefly talked about the, as far as me referencing the kids as my own, there is something that happens in our brains, in our bodies, as we are taking care of something that we exercise or practice own a degree of ownership. And I don't mean ownership as in we just control all of their lives, but when I call something mine, I'm going to tend to it and care for it in a way that I want something that is not mine. And this is, you can take it back to like a primitive understanding of as far as taking care of kids, they resemble us, they look like us, they're designed to carry on some of our traits. In part, so that we don't kill them. Because they're annoying. And they're challenging. They're absolutely ridiculous. Real talk, I'm sure about it.

39:15 Stephanie Winn Infanticide is like an actual part of human history that we don't like to look at.

39:20 Jeremiah Wallace It's a real thing. So they look like us. They sound like us. They act like us for a reason in part so that we keep them alive and we can tend to them and care for them. So I recognized my need to take ownership over my children and say those are my kids so I can take care of them. as my own, not even as if they were my own, but as my own based on the purpose that I'm walking in. And that's something that parents in general are lacking. But step parents, blended families especially are lacking. There's my kids, there's your kids, there's this, there's that. There isn't a collective ownership. And it's serving as such a threat to the family because a family, its foundation, is to function in one accord. And our job is to provide for these kids based on what our role should consist of, based on their unique abilities and what they need from us. And the needs are going to be different from one child to the other. So the ability to do that, it is, it takes, it does take some time, but it is so worth it if we want our families to get to the point where they're functioning well, our kids are OK, they're good. And when that's the case, they are able to take information from different parties, from different resources, whatever. And they are able to gauge what is in their best interest versus what is not, because we serve them in accordance again with our role, what that's supposed to consist of and based on who they are, not based on what a kid should be getting from me or how they should behave and operate. We make our parenting unique to each of these individuals. And as a result, we serve them in such a way so that they are not just resilient because of the trauma that they experienced and the separation of their family. And I know that's something that we celebrate to a degree as far as their resilience. And it's great. Thankfully they are, they are, they are strong little human beings, but we don't want to, we don't want to base our parenting on what they can and can't handle. We want to base our parenting on how we should be serving them, what is ultimately in their best interest. And again, if we do that the right way, we had a really hard conversation with my, with my niece, I believe it was last week. Her father does not, his belief system and the way that he functions is disordered. And he regularly discourages our, her home and us functioning as guardians. in her life. However, because we've been serving her so effectively, fortunately, she has been able to not defend herself because we don't want her to do that. But she knows the truth. She's not deceived. She's not like, recently just gave some ridiculous information. And she can see right through it because she's been loved well. Because we've done enough pulling her aside and letting her know the truth based on when she needs it, how she needs it, how much of it she needs so that she can function in this world, knowing like what direction to move in, what information she should hold on to versus the stuff that's just, that sounds ridiculous. And it sounds inconsistent with the foundation that she's familiar with.

42:49 Stephanie Winn So there's this element of doing the work, giving it your best, and then just trusting in who your child is, their own intelligence, their own meaning-making ability, and their ability to navigate triangulation, knowing that as much as in an ideal world, children would never be triangulated, but whoever said this is an ideal world, right? So I want to talk about triangulation, but first there was something you mentioned about how kids resemble us. And in one of your episodes, you sort of astutely honed in on how this is a unique challenge for step-parents because they're not your own biological children, so they don't resemble you in those little ways. Now, in our family, if you didn't know better, you'd think we were all just, you know, that they were my kids, right? Like, we resemble each other enough, but at the same time, you know, there are so many ways that I see their father in them. And that makes it easier for me to connect because I love their dad. And so I love that part of them. But at the same time, you're missing all those tiny little ways that a being that has your own genetics is going to reflect you. And that is a unique challenge to step parents. And so I think about all these little moments where the moment we develop any kind of ritual together, however small, or sort of an inside joke or an expression that means something to us, a nickname, or a game we like to play together, or a song that we like to sing and dance to together, each of those moments, it's like as a stepparent, you're piecing them together brick by brick. You're building a relationship because you can't count on a history of those things. count on them being built into your DNA. And so like every one of those pieces of common ground that you form with your kids is so precious.

44:38 Jeremiah Wallace It really is. Absolutely. Building the memories, having fun together, even in those corrective moments where you're leading them with a bit of, you're a bit fortified. You're not being a pushover by any means. but there is value in that children desire order, especially when they come from chaos, especially when they can look at what's happening on the other side of the family. And they're just like, like this, obviously I'm in agreement with it, or I am going to function in this capacity because it's the easiest thing to do in this space. But I see the health and the functionality in this circumstance, in this situation, And it took our oldest a long time to come to a point where she saw things as they are. And she does now. But thankfully, we have the history of the good times and we built them. I was just looking at pictures the other day of her when she was about five years old through like eight. And we have just so many good times together and. who I was during those times and the struggle, the level of struggle that I was having was immense. It was immense. It was immense. But I showed up. I continue to show up because I recognize how I should be operating in this person's life. I stepped into purpose. I followed through with my commitment, despite the fact that. Yes, she does have some of the traits of her mother, but she also has some of the traits of her father that I'm not a fan of, to be honest. Even to this day, there are some things where it's just like, oh, my gosh, I see your dad. And it almost feels like you have an intruder in your home, like like this person who, yes, we're stuck with for the rest of our life, so to speak. I sometimes it's just very disappointing when I see that person in my home, but I have to pause. And because if I have disdain toward that individual, the other parent, Even in all of their ridiculousness, I will naturally, subconsciously or consciously, have disdain toward this child. So it's a proactive effort being made to not hold them responsible or liable for who, whose image they were made in. They reflect their parent. They do. That's a thing. That doesn't mean they are them and they are in part, but it's really just about my responsibility. What is my responsibility? How am I supposed to show up for them? No. I don't like the other parent. There are moments where it's just like, this is insane. And there are some traits that again, they function in, in your space where it's just like, this is how, how do we do this? How do we like, how do we get through this? Do we change this about them? Do we, no, we just, we level, we direct them in the right way and And and we honor the other parent because we will then honor them, their experience, their expression, whatever that is. And it gets easier over time.

47:52 Stephanie Winn That is such a tricky experience when you see qualities or behaviors in a child that are that are truly irritating and you know where they're getting it from, whether it's like, whether you view it as more of a natural disposition that they inherited or a learned behavior that has been modeled for them in a different environment. And that's so tricky because you have to manage your own feelings, your own annoyance about it. And you have a realistic concern because if it's annoying to you, it's probably annoying to other people. I don't know if you are a fan of Jordan Peterson. He's a very divisive character. But in his Rules for Living, one of his pieces of advice is don't let your children do things that annoy you. Those aren't his exact words, but it's basically like, look, if you love them unconditionally and their behavior is annoying you, imagine how that's going to go over with someone who doesn't love them unconditionally. So on the one hand, you feel a responsibility to mold your child in a way that they have a good character and that they're likable by others, right? And on the other hand, you want to respect that they're internalizing this behavior from somewhere. This is another part of them. And, um, something that we've, we've thought of when we've seen that sort of moment in our home is actually, this is a way of demonstrating loyalty to the parent who's not here. Right. By, by mimicking, um, some of that parent's mannerisms, even if they're mannerisms that we find, um, obnoxious.

49:27 Jeremiah Wallace Yeah.

49:27 Stephanie Winn It's a way of, like you say, it feels like an intruder in your home because they are bringing the other person home with them. It's their way of sort of managing that gap by internalizing a part of that other parent and expressing that behavior. So it's so tricky because on the one hand, in that other home, they're being shown that this is a normal or a good or a likable behavior, and you should do it to be more like your parent. And in the other home, they're being shown that the same behavior is frowned upon or viewed obnoxiously. So it's like, how do you avoid, again, back to triangulation, how do you avoid triangulating that kid?

50:06 Jeremiah Wallace Understanding that truth wins in the end is super important. So that last thing we want to do is compensate for whatever it is that they're getting or whatever they're lacking on that end. There's only so much that we can do. My oldest, for instance, unfortunately, her father, she just entered into high school. She's a ninth grader. Her father didn't pick her up one time from middle school. That's three years of her life where he wasn't invested in any capacity. And there's a, I'm sure there's a lot of reasons or excuses as far as his lack of availability and her life and how he's compensated for that is he's functioned as a Disneyland parent, unfortunately, where it's like, we'll take you out. We'll have the fun. I don't know if she's done a chore in that space in years. I have no idea. And our job is, and this is something that I felt in me, like I wanted to almost compensate for that naturally and almost rob her of good things over here because I saw that she was kind of gaining a warped perspective concerning gifts, concerning just what times should consist of. with family and parents on the weekend, just good times, fun times. Sorry dude, we also have responsibilities. That's super important. But sticking with that, kind of growing in my understanding as well as my grace for, again, for her to come to a point where she understands what is good for her and what's not. Because while there are gifts, while there is literally Disneyland trips and whatnot, the availability during the week, during those moments where a family member passes away, where they experienced something really hard at school and all of these things and who shows up, who's there for them in the right way, just empathizing, connecting with. And that over time, that is truth. and that ultimately wins. So as many times as they bring those other parents, those other qualities, they exercise those things in the home, just being patient with them, kind of calming ourselves down. If they're not threatening themselves, if they're not threatening one of the other children in the home or really threatening. I wouldn't say the peace, but threatening the the purpose and the order of the home. Like children should have the room to fail, to make mistakes, to exercise some of those dysfunctional qualities. But when they get to a point where they're they're causing harm or they're really causing disorder for what you're trying to do in the family at that point, hey, Let's have a conversation one-on-one, but we do our collective family huddles so we can stay on the same page about just, again, the direction that we're headed in. But until we arrive at that point, we kind of like, we're just there. We're there. We're giving them truth. We'll give them information as far as some of the outcomes that they'll see if they continue to behave in such a way. There are consequences if it happens in a way that's way too frequent or way too ridiculous. But just understanding again, truth wins in the end and what we're doing, our investment is sustainable for the next 10 years. Is what that other parent doing sustainable for the next 10 years? Probably not. Probably not.

53:31 Stephanie Winn If you're looking for a simple way to take better care of yourself, check out Organifi. I start every day with a glass of their original green juice powder mixed with water. It contains moringa, ashwagandha, chlorella, spirulina, matcha, wheatgrass, beets, turmeric, mint, lemon, and coconut water. 100% organic with no added sugar. It's the best tasting superfood supplement I've ever tried. It's super easy to make, and it makes me feel good. Organifi also makes several other delicious and nutritious superfood blends, such as red juice, immune support, protein powders, a golden milk mix and even superfood hot cocoa. Check out the collection at organifi.com slash some therapist. That's o r g a n i f i.com slash some therapist and use code some therapist to take 20% off your order. Let's talk about the family huddle. This is part of how you create culture in the home. So maybe you can Actually, I'd love for you to, because you're so good at laying out foundational principles, what do you mean when you talk about culture in the home? And then how did you develop this ritual of the family huddle?

54:42 Jeremiah Wallace Yeah. So again, I came from dysfunction. I didn't really know the value of family, nor did I really know the value or understand what culture is even as a result of just dysfunction. Obviously, I'm African-American. There are some cultural things, I guess, are associated with being a black person that I don't agree with. And so it's just like coming into this this family. disordered, not understanding the value of family. It's just, it, it, it creates opportunity for failure, which I did early and often. And I still do from time to time, but it came to a point where I understood like lineage, family, these things are essential and then creating culture that I didn't have the opportunity or I wasn't subjected to myself in the home, healthy cultural and just what it means to be a functional, healthy, loving family. So literally and deliberately, intentionally creating culture. in the home is important, it really is. And there are so many threats within family, but especially the blended family, because these children are subjects to other cultures, to other people, to extended family and friends, whether things are well on that end or extremely dysfunctional. Either way, we need to have unity in this home, not perfect unison, but creating opportunities for unity as far as the page that we function on. We have something hanging out over one of near our ceiling on a wall. It's a responsibility. It is being resourceful and being respectful. We call them the three Rs. And oftentimes we meet concerning those three things and say, Hey, how have you, how do you believe you've been concerning being respectful, respectful, resourceful, and responsible. And we'll talk about that. We'll express how people are doing, what's going well, what's a challenge. We have an opportunity to pray for one another. My wife and I have opportunity to apologize when things take place that were inconsistent with how we want to raise them. And we're so deliberate. We have broken down what you can expect from mom and dad. And a lot of parents don't want to do that because they don't want to be held accountable by their children. And it's super important for us to be held accountable. This is what you can expect from me as an adult parent that functions in your life. And whenever I'm operating outside of that, I'm giving you the right to respectfully kind of come at me, ask me, or just to know that your parents are having a human moment. And they're operating outside of how they should, what they're capable of. And then we come together. Hey, sorry about this. I said this thing. I did this thing. I apologize. Or we're just creating unity. We get to see each other as human beings talk to one another. handle conflict potentially if one of the children have been going at it, but it's just the family huddle. Like you think about a team, sports, like they come together to huddle, to create plays, to make sure they're operating on the same page. So that's something that we do monthly or every three weeks. And it just really allows for unity, for prayer. And it's awkward, especially when I first started doing it. It's like these rambunctious children super disrespectful, making this thing that I'm trying to do to exercise culture in our home for their sake, for our sake. They are, this is, this is insane. There are times where it's just like, I don't want to do this. But I know that unity is essential, especially considering everything that, that we're facing as a family.

58:47 Stephanie Winn That sounds so wise. And I love, I love the way that you model what it is to take accountability and to demonstrate to your children that they can hold you accountable, I think that really goes a long way in terms of setting expectations for what kind of behavior is appropriate. And it's my understanding that you don't have to be a perfect parent all the time for your kids to grow up okay. There just needs to be enough of a sense of what's right and wrong to help them so that when you are not your best self, they're like, okay, that's daddy having a bad day, right? Rather than it distorting their expectations and creating chaos and confusion. And one of the best ways you can do that is to be that source of integrity yourself and to be the one to say, hey, when I snapped at your mother, that was my bad. I apologize. It sets expectations appropriately and then you're modeling the kind of behavior that you want from them too. And then if you expect that behavior from them, you're not expecting something better from them than you're able to do yourself, which I feel like a lot of less than ideal parenting can be boiled down to a parent having higher expectations of a child than they have of themselves. Absolutely. For example, emotion regulation, right? Your brain is fully formed. You're 30, 40 years old. This child's brain is not fully formed. The emotion regulation parts are still developing. If you're losing your cool, how do you expect them to gain that ability?

01:00:13 Jeremiah Wallace Absolutely. Yeah. And just again, the room to for humanity to be seen on everybody's part. We're giving permission to fail on this space because it's possible that in the other space, they don't have room to fail. They don't have the room to talk about you. Oftentimes, a step parent won't exist if there's like a high, strong, high conflict or just an immature adult on the other side that can't really handle the idea of another authority figure functioning in their life. potentially quote-unquote replacing them. These aren't real things that is not the perspective or the experience of the child but they're those are things oftentimes projected. So again allowing for the humanity of the adults to be made known. And then at that point to make room for the humanity, the mistakes, the failures, the successes of the children, let them know in this space you can grow up. I'm going to let you grow up. We're going to give you the freedom to do so. There is a line. You will eventually be corrected if you push it too far. And there is such thing as order. But we want you to know that you have room here.

01:01:22 Stephanie Winn That's such a tricky experience for a child to be in that position where in one home, let's say you have a parent that needs everything to reflect well on them and needs to feel like the most important person. And so let's say that person has a way of subtly putting down the other parents in the picture or undermining their authority or, like you say, not enthusiastically hearing kids' stories that involve the other parents. And then in the other home, you have parents, let's say, acting, trying to act with integrity, who never disparage the other parent. They only speak well of the other parent, even if that's hard. And they are able to delight in stories about the other parent because of the delight that that has for the kid and understanding you need to put the kid first. So then, on the one hand, the dynamic would make the kids like almost have more respect for the parent that is only spoken well of and less respect for the parent that gets disparage when in fact the behavior, you know, it's kind of the reverse in terms of what they should be internalizing. What have your observations been about kids' ability to kind of make sense of that and to realize like, Oh, like when these parents speak well of that parent, that's them doing something good.

01:02:49 Jeremiah Wallace Right.

01:02:49 Stephanie Winn And like when this parent speaks poorly of that parent, that doesn't mean that my other parents are bad. It means this parent is having a hard time doing the right thing. Like, you know, it's a lot for a kid's brain to process.

01:03:01 Jeremiah Wallace Absolutely. Eventually, the input, they naturally match the input with the output. Like, are the results that you're insinuating, are they present in experience? Or do I have a great time? And do I know that I'm well loved by these people so we can, they can do all the bashing. And there is a point where conversations must transpire. And I do believe that in every circumstance, as far as kind of blending families and whatnot, and the opportunity to. meet in person concerning what it is. Cause again, we can miss the child's humanity. We can miss the humanity of the ex or the parents involved. So when we create opportunities to come together and potentially talk, Hey, like just, just to see the humanity for the, for the, the mom in question to see the humanity of the step parent to be. And then at that point, that opportunity is created, whether they took advantage of it or not. And then we can kind of move in a direction of some level of understanding where we're not going to raise the child the same, our cultures will not be duplicates of one another, but it's an opportunity to, okay, let's make, let's make them the priority. And hopefully that happens. In a lot of cases, it does not happen. So our biggest investment, greatest investment is the child. And what we don't do is correct their understanding at every step. There come pivotal moments where we can see what's being invested in them, sewn into them, is detrimental and it's hurting them. It's creating distance between us and them. And at that point, we can have conversation, whether vaguely or very directly and, Hey, how are things going? How are things going in the other home? Or we can say, Hey, I know that these things have been said, and I'm sorry that these things are being said to you. Those are adult things and it's not okay, but we're here for you. I'm really sorry that that's happening. That's information that you should not be exposed to. It hurts you. It's not good. And then at that point you love them. They don't have any consequences. And there are oftentimes, there are situations where reaching out to the other parent isn't even necessary. I've done that recently with, again, when we had that conversation with my niece, I mean, she broke down, she was heartbroken for a lot of reasons. And she gave us some information. And what I wanted to do, what I've done before is call my brother, Hey, like this is going down. What is that about, dude? That's, that's not good. Where it was, there was a moment probably two months ago where he was essentially teaching her to lie, telling her to lie to us. And then there was this recent instance and again, some detrimental information she told us. And I was trying to figure out whether I should do that or not. And I didn't, I didn't reach out to him. It was more detrimental than the lying, I believe. Um, because she's protected, she's doing okay. She's doing well. The most important thing in that moment was empathizing with her, connecting with her and affirming her experience. It's terrible for any human to jump from one place to another. It's, it's a strain. It really is. So just, just being there. And eventually again, the input and the output will be held up alongside one another and they'll see the truth for what it is.

01:06:41 Stephanie Winn Let's talk about that child's experience of shifting between homes. I know every blended family has their own schedule, custody agreements, and whatnot. People live close or far. They see the other parent frequently, infrequently. And so the child's experience of shifting between homes with, as you described, different cultures, rules, expectations, different ways of talking about the other parents involved. You talked about this in your episode, Is My Stepchild Two-Faced? And I liked how you broke it down into kind of these two different ways of thinking about the child experience. sort of, and I don't remember what terms you used, but it was kind of like the ways in which the child themselves gets to benefit from the experience of having two different homes or environments where they get to maybe express different parts of themselves or connect in different ways or, you know, even the little things like which toys they have in which environment, or which family friends they get to see in which environment, or little rituals around meals, things like that. All the little things that can be different where the child themselves feels like, this is a part of me that I get to experience here. And then the parts that are not so pleasant or where the child doesn't feel like it's their choice, where these differences and this shifting around and the chaos that can ensue is like foisted upon them.

01:08:10 Jeremiah Wallace Yeah, our kids have an opportunity to become chameleons. They really do. They learned and they're almost forced to learn this experience of adaptation. And again, it's part of the resilience factor that is often celebrated, but it's something that we have to be mindful of because they slip into these different environments. And it's just like, I have benefits over here, things that I can do over here, such as being on electronics for an extended amount of time. Again, having the whole Disneyland experience. There are also the positive things of, as you mentioned, being able to see different family members and just the connection with the loved ones. It's we have to, as I mentioned before, make an effort, be intentional about refraining from balancing whatever their situation is out. We can recognize that, again, being on the tablet for so long is detrimental, clearly, or it's unrealistic for them to get the number of gifts that they get. It really is. This parent, this situation is clearly making an effort to earn favor, but our jobs aren't to balance them out or compete in earning for that favor. We're aiming for the thing that is sustainable and we are sensitive enough to our child, connected enough to the child so that we can be for them in the way that we need to be there for them, opposed to neglecting their experience in the other home. And that's another really important thing. There's almost, in all of us that are being honest with ourselves, we almost want them to have a bad time over there. We want them to have a bad time with the other parent. We want our efforts to prevail, to surface what we've been sowing, the seeds that we've been watering over time, especially as step parents. We just want those things to sprout through the ground so that they can see me as the amazing and intentional loving individual that I've been. And eventually that may happen. We may see some, some plants break through the ground, but that should not be where our focus is. Our focus is learning this individual, making sure we're well. making sure we're good, we're in a position to respond, again, according to their needs, recognizing our needs. But again, that marriage relationship is the most important thing. My wife and I talk pretty much every day for 30 minutes, close to 30 minutes to an hour about life, but also about how the kids are doing. like it's this is not something that should be happening infrequently we have to be so unified in order for us to create this environment where we can serve these people adequately if we're not then there have been times where we're not. I like my oldest less because again, she starts looking like her father more. I like our niece less because she starts looking like her father more, especially to my wife because she refers to my wife as auntie, but she refers to me as papa. So it's just this kind of like this convoluted, challenging situation where it's just, if we're not on the same page operating in unity, then this whole thing just falls apart. And the children are at the greatest level of threat because they're obviously kids.

01:11:49 Stephanie Winn You said something really astute there when you talked about how kids have this opportunity to become chameleons or forced to learn to adapt, and that there's this tendency to want to either balance out or compete with the other household, which boils down to being reactive versus proactive, right? If you're that parent that really cares about health, like you said, you're a health coach and you know that they're spending some of their time in an environment where they're eating pizza and ice cream, then to balance that out would be like, okay, only broccoli and salmon all week, right? Or to compete would be to go the opposite and now I have to raise the bar even higher. I get that competitive dynamic, especially in a household where the kids are blessed in some way. You talked about how if you're being really honest, there's a part of you that wants them to have a bad time over there. And the part of me that can relate to that is I don't think anyone wants to admit to that because it's not putting the child's needs first. Because if you're putting the child's needs first, you want them to have a good time. You want them to be raised well. But it's that selfish part that's like, If they have a bad time over there, then it validates my grievances with that other person. But let's say in a situation where your grievances are that the other parent is able to give them so much that it sets the expectations so high. And then there's the competitive, right? And balancing them out would be like depriving them. And so managing expectations, I feel like, is another part of parenting in general and relationships in general more broadly. But managing expectations with kids, if one parent or one household has sort of set the norm as to what you should expect, what you deserve as a kid, let's say how much money we have, how many trips we take, what kind of food we eat, or if there is like an extravagant lifestyle, for example, and you're trying to raise your kids in a more modest way, either because that's what you have the means to do? Or just because you want to teach your kids the value of humility and hard work and not having the world handed to you on a silver platter? How do you end up in that place where you're not competing with an ever-raised bar? And how do you end up not looking like the bad guy or the one like Cinderella's evil stepmother that's just making her clean out the fireplace?

01:14:26 Jeremiah Wallace Yeah. Well, all kids have needs. They have wants as well. And the last thing that we want to do is to warp any of those, nor do we want to neglect any of them. So a child in this situation that you suggested as far as getting whether extravagant gifts or just things being provided for at the upper echelon of the children, a child's experience and perspective. They're going to have a warped kind of that they there is a need for getting gifts. There's the there's the want for getting gifts. But when that monster is fed and emphasis is placed on that, that means other areas are being neglected. And I don't necessarily want to say that there are other more important areas. They're all very important. But we're either going to place emphasis on a few very just essential things and kind of just put focus there, or we're going to achieve some level of balance where all needs are getting met. They obviously have their personal predispositions or things that they prefer that we can kind of give attention to a bit. And if it is that gift giving, for instance, let's say the other party is buying a bunch of stuff. Well, on this end, we can make a gift. We can make something and provide something that is just as valuable, if not more so, because time and attention was invested in. You can see that this is something that was created specifically tailored for them. So while we don't want to throw on or add to the monster of that gift giving and just that warped understanding of what that process should be, we can kind of present something to balance that out. But as I mentioned, if that emphasis is being placed there, it's likely that other areas are being neglected because you think about the gift giving, they get it, they're satisfied, they play with it for a certain amount of time, probably half of the time or something like that. that they're at this other parties in their environment. That means they weren't spending so much time on things like learning, like building, like, like chores and an important thing. They are an important thing. Exercising responsibility, connectivity with other human beings, just all types of stuff that were likely neglected. So it's just being a little mindful, to be honest, paying enough attention to know That again, not in an effort to balance things out, but knowing, Hey, this person's going over there. It's going to be a little bit of a Disneyland experience. And therefore like, let's have some things ready for them, or let's just move as we move and not really pay too much attention to how they were overindulged. If that makes sense.

01:17:30 Stephanie Winn And in terms of that shifting between households, the adjusting, how have you learned to kind of pick up on cues of how that adjustment is going? Because we all we shift gears between activities, right? We do that every day. We shift gears between work and downtime. We shift gears between days, weekends, vacation mode. And to some extent, we become different people or we show different parts of ourselves in different environments. And this is something that is normal part of adult life. But then you think about a kid and their process of adjusting between different homes on whatever their custody schedule might be. Have you noticed any patterns either, you know, in your own family or with some of the families that you've spoken to on your podcast or in your coaching that kind of give you cues as to how a kid is doing in that adjustment process, what the process is like of settling in, especially with like every few days, right? Like, oh, now I'm in this household and that can be clunky transition, right? And then now I'm in this one.

01:18:37 Jeremiah Wallace Yeah, it can be rough. It can be very rough, to be honest, because of a potential overstimulation in the other environment. If they're doing the whole Disneyland thing, or there was some degree of neglect, whatever, again, our biggest thing should not be responding to whatever happened there, but there are some cues in the form of distance, obviously from the child after upon returning back home and We want to get right back in the saddle as far as connecting. We want them to hop onto the culture and what they know it to be and all that stuff and just continue moving forward. But oftentimes for these kids, it's, they literally, there's literally times where they just want to, it's just quiet. They don't speak. It's almost like a slow shock that happens to them because they were in this space immersed in it entirely, invested. And now all of a sudden they were like, uprooted and replanted into this other environment that they're familiar with, that they enjoy, but it's different. You think about a plant that taken, you switch it out from one pot to another over time and that plant's not going to be doing well. Obviously plants are not as resilient as human beings. We have the ability to adapt and so do our kids, but harm can be done if that's not done carefully and mindfully. So one of the ways we can be mindful and tend to our children is to have that grace for them when they do return from the other environment, whether they're bringing stuff with them or they literally feel distance from us. And we feel that distance and it grieves us. It hurts because it's just like, especially as a step parent, it's like we built so many wins. We have so many, so many great things happened. We left, you literally left on a high note. We were doing really well. And then they come back. appearing to be or seeming to be a different person or to desire, to not desire that, that connection as much. And it's something that can hurt, but we can't take it personally. We can't, we, if we think about ourselves, there are some step parents, some parents that are familiar with the custody arrangement, so they can kind of empathize. But a lot of us are not, we can't really, We can't really understand or put our ourselves in their shoes entirely So we don't give them the benefit of the doubt but we need to and yes, because our children are chameleons and very emotional there are points where they can abuse that. They can come back to our space and abuse just this window of grace that we've provided them. And it's just what we, what has to happen at that point is connection. We have to know them so well and be so connected to them that again, we can be who we need to be for them. But if we don't have that connection, if we don't have the depth of relationship, it's just going to come off as very offensive and we will feel rejected and we will in turn reject them.

01:21:49 Stephanie Winn That's so tricky. And I've seen this in my counseling practice like when when step parents hit that hit that really, really tough point in step parenting where they're like, It ain't even my kid," right? And they're like throwing in the towel. And oftentimes it's like just when your kid needs you the most, they need you to hold on to them and that instinct to push away. Now you use a gardening analogy. I love a good gardening analogy. Samantha used one last week. I said the same thing. I love a good gardening analogy. And I was able to visualize it because I am a bit of a plant nerd myself. You talked about a plant switching pots every few days. And I don't know if you have much experience of repotting plants.

01:22:32 Jeremiah Wallace Not a ton. Do you know about the roots?

01:22:33 Stephanie Winn Yeah, the roots. So plants' roots, they're sensing things, right? Plants don't have nervous systems in the same way that we do, but they're feeling and they're sensing. And they're trying to learn what kind of space am I in? Are there obstacles that I can't get around? Should I just stay here? Or should I move this way to get around this, right? And so if you have a plant that is in, let's say, a pot that's too small for too long, and you eventually take that plant out of that pot, you will see something, we call it being root bound, where you can see the roots have gone around and around the circle trying to get out. And so you're like, oh, you needed to be repotted a year ago. I see what's going on here. Right. But what you're actually supposed to do to help that plant is gently massage the roots a little bit and help it adjust to the new soil when you give it new soil. Because if you just let it stay in that formation, it thinks this is as far as I can go. It's like actually I use this analogy in my counseling practice. I'm going to compare it to animals too. So if you take an animal from the time that it's a baby and you raise it, let's say, in the wilderness but with a fence where there's only so far you can ever go, and then you remove that fence when it's an adult, it's not going to go past those boundaries. So plants are like that and humans are like that. It's sort of like the learned helplessness. This is as far as I can go. I can't go any further. I will hit a limit. And then you don't even try even when the opportunity is there. So I'm thinking about if that plant keeps getting shifted between these pots like you describe, it doesn't have the ability to settle its roots.

01:24:09 Jeremiah Wallace Absolutely.

01:24:10 Stephanie Winn And so I think about like settling and that is something that has been a little bit of a grieving process for me in my adjusting to what it is to be a part of a blended family and and not to have the full nuclear family experience in the traditional sense because there's kind of this sense that I can't quite put my finger on, but it just kind of feels like they're not really settling, you know? And there's like, and how could you settle if you're constantly shifting around? You're not sinking your roots down into the soil.

01:24:43 Jeremiah Wallace Yeah. Unsettled and insecure. that those are some of the, a couple of the greatest threats that those children will experience throughout their, their blending life and potentially for the rest of their lives, depending on how we serve them. That is very contingent on that. And why, why it's so important? Because the, the opportunity for inconsistency and just a not being able to take roots anywhere, it's literally their life experience. And if we're not careful, they will continue to be their life experience on the other side of being in our environment, in our space.

01:25:24 Stephanie Winn So if the risk is of feeling unsettled and insecure, what are some things that we can do as step parents, even though our kids are literally, well, not literally, metaphorically constantly being uprooted? Yeah. What are some things that we can do to help them feel the opposite of that, which would be settled and secure? You can now watch No Way Back, the reality of gender affirming care. This medical ethics documentary, formerly known as Affirmation Generation, is the definitive film on detransition. Stream the film now or purchase a DVD. Visit nowaybackfilm.com and use promo code SOMETHERAPIST to take 20% off your order. Follow us on Twitter at 2022affirmation or on Instagram at affirmationgeneration.

01:26:13 Jeremiah Wallace Yeah, we've been talking about a little bit of it, obviously creating culture in the home, having those connection points, the family huddles and things of that nature. And this is for like, to know that you're coming to a place that is stable, where we're all together is it makes all the difference in the world. Imagine an environment that is practicing disunity and you're already experiencing these inconsistencies and they they cannot illustrate what they're going through. But in their spirits and their hearts and their minds, they understand that this, this space is unified and there's a peace that they experience in turn. And some, sometimes that peace looks like them lashing out and having an attitude. To be honest, they're like, I can be dysfunctional in this space. I'll talk about my oldest again, when she's with her dad, they can't even have hard conversations. It's possible that. he and his girlfriend broke up and they have a child together and she doesn't feel like she has the freedom to ask like what's happening because that obviously affects her it affects her relationship with her brother it's just like it is it would be devastating obviously for obvious reasons but Because of the lack of stability over there, she doesn't even feel she has the freedom to have that conversation. So when she's in our space, when she's with us, the fact that there is a unity there allows for her roots to remain. Fortunately, obviously talked about the marriage relationship. the affection that they get to see between me and my wife, both my my niece, our niece and my oldest, they they're dating relationships over there. So they we represent a marriage relationship, a strength between a man and a woman. And we get to display the function, display the affection. We get to display our arguments and healthy, functional, respectful arguments. We get to display apologize and we get to display servitude. And we get to do this together for them because it's not just about what's happening in the home. What we do as a family or within our marriage relationship outside of the home and them getting to partake or witness, absolutely gigantic. I think the way that we do celebrating in relationships outside of the home as well is really important because there's so much dysfunction. There's so much inconsistency, like, but for them to know to be secure, not just in us, but to be secure in those friendships, in their relationships with uncles and aunts, and things of that nature and those for those to be healthy relationships. That's a really, that's a huge, huge, huge thing. If we do not have healthy community, then our children are going to lack just naturally. If our community consists of going out and partying with people, hitting the clubs here and there, if it consists of any drug use, to be honest, if it consists of just things that everything has to point back to the family. Everything that we experienced indirectly will affect our children indirectly. So we have to be mindful of the community. We have to be mindful of our friendships, how we do family outside of the home, because all of that will represent consistency and it will provide the security that is under threat as they're doing the whole custody thing.

01:29:58 Stephanie Winn Jeremy, this has been such a pleasure. Is there anything that I forgot to ask you about today or that's kind of left on your mind that you'd like to contribute?

01:30:08 Jeremiah Wallace We've touched on it, but it really comes down to purpose. It comes down to purpose. And when we have purpose in mind, we have commitment in mind, and then we are less likely to be led by emotions. We're less likely to be led by poor information. And we can do things as we should when we submit our experience to purpose and we allow purpose to lead the way. And because of that, We are again, nine years in, celebrating 10 years of marriage next year. And our expectation is to fulfill our vows till death does us part. This is not something that we do conditionally. If we want to get to a point where our love, where our example, all those things, everything should be moving toward an unconditional example and expression of love and connectedness and all of the above. But you use the term selfishness a little bit ago as far as from the experience of the stepparent. But if there is any degree of selfishness, if we allow it to permeate to take root. If we entertain selfishness in our relationships, then what we're doing is we're we're practicing conditions. And therefore, again, our family is under threat and it's likely not going to last very long if we entertain selfishness for too long. So just submitting everything to purpose. I am meant to function in the life of this child. as their step parent. I am a parent in their life, period. Not like that's his kids or her kids and vice versa. When they're when we invite division into our families and then our families are divided. So just coming together in obviously unity, but submitting our will, our emotions, all of it to the purpose we that we just are in agreement with. It just it makes all the difference.

01:32:14 Stephanie Winn That's so beautiful. And it reminds me of something you said in one of your episodes about, I think the way you put it was like, it doesn't matter how you feel towards your kids, it matters what you conclude about them. Yeah, absolutely. Like, you might feel annoyed with them or what have you, but at the end of the day, do you conclude that this is a child that needs me, that I'm in their life for a reason, and so on. And that's, again, really grounding. That's one of the reasons I had you on the show, because you have such this rooted perspective. And I'm so grateful for you sharing your wisdom today. So let people know where they can find you.

01:32:48 Jeremiah Wallace Yeah, absolutely. This will be in the beginning of October that you can go on to the website of navigatingtheblend.com. For now, you can see me via Instagram, navigating the blend, or you can go to the blended podcast. It's pretty much on all platforms, Spotify, Apple podcasts and a litany of others blended navigating the blended family experience and yeah can find me on all of the above.

01:33:19 Stephanie Winn And want to put in a plug for your health coaching practice?

01:33:21 Jeremiah Wallace Absolutely yeah so I do meet with people one-on-one I every once in a while do a consultations for couples and work with them, but I serve people in the betterment of their minds and their bodies. Essentially, I help people with their beliefs, their behaviors, and then the outcomes of their life, their goals. So it's been, it's definitely a privilege and a pleasure to work with people in that capacity.

01:33:49 Stephanie Winn Thank you so much for bringing your wisdom here today. It's been a pleasure.

01:33:52 Jeremiah Wallace Thank you, Stephanie. It's a great time. Thank you.

01:33:56 Stephanie Winn I hope you enjoyed this episode of You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist podcast. To check out my book recommendations, articles, wellness products, guest episodes on other podcasts, consulting services, and lots more, visit SomeTherapist.com or follow me on Twitter or Instagram at SomeTherapist. If you'd like to go deeper, join my community at somekindoftherapist.locals.com. Members can dialogue with other listeners, post questions for upcoming podcast guests to respond to, or ask questions for me to respond to in exclusive members-only Q&A live streams. To learn more about the gender crisis, watch our film, No Way Back, The Reality of Gender-Affirming Care, at nowaybackfilm.com. Special thanks to my producers, Eric and Amber Beals at Different Mix, and to Joey Pecoraro for our theme song, Half Awake. If you appreciate this podcast and want more people to find it, kindly take a moment to rate, review, like, comment, and share on your platforms of choice. Of course, just because I am some therapist doesn't mean I'm your therapist. This podcast is not a substitute for medical advice. If you need help, ask your doctor or browse your local therapists online. And whatever you do next, please take care of yourself. Eat well, sleep well, move your body, get outside, and tell someone you love them. You're worth it.