You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist

Swell AI Transcript: 80. Kim O.mp3
Kim O: That's your higher self. And she can witness the pain of this inner child. So once we move in that direction where we can actually witness these feelings and hold space for them, and that's a process, it takes some time and it can feel painful. But when you can actually witness them from your higher self, rather than identifying with, it's a whole different ballgame.
Stephanie Winn: You must be some kind of therapist. Today, my guest is Kim Oh. She is a relational soul coach from Phoenix, Arizona, the creator of the YouTube channel HeartWorkU, that's U as in the letter or the university, and the website heartworku.com. Kim coaches highly sensitive people and is a cheerleader for resilience. She's currently working with a detransitioner on a book series for children called You Can't Steal My Smile that is all about resilience. Kim has an interesting backstory that I think will be worth listening to for a lot of listeners with this podcast, because I frequently hear from therapists in training, people who are considering going to grad school, who are concerned about the direction the field has been heading in and wondering, should I stick with the path of being a therapist? Should I be a coach instead? Is therapy dead? Is coaching worth it? So I think we'll start there. But first, I want to say, Kim, welcome. Great to have you. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. So a little bit of your backstory. I'm just going to kind of cue up the facts. You started but didn't complete college long ago. Then you ended up being a hairstylist for 40, excuse me, 30 years, which gave you an opportunity to sort of coach and mentor and talk to people about their feelings, which has always kind of been a sweet spot for you. And then, um, Recently, a few years ago, you decided to complete your bachelor's where you did a capstone piece on detransitioners. And you were surprised by the reaction you got, although most people who are listeners to this show won't be surprised about the reaction that you got. You then went on to start your master's in counseling psychology, but you stopped because of the issues you encountered with the ideological capture of our field. Prior to that, You had done coaching, and so it gave you something to fall back on. And so here you are, happily working as a coach. So I want to get a start there. Tell us about that research paper that you did on detransitioners, your journey into grad school, and what made you eventually decide to call it quits with the higher education process.

Kim O: Okay, yeah, I want to back up just a tiny bit to describe that. As a hairstylist, I had a long-time client whose daughter became trans. And so, you know, that was a few years prior to finishing my degree and the capstone. But it facilitated the topic And what happened was, I think this is really interesting, that when she told me about her daughter now being a boy, and he was 15-ish, I was all on board for it. I thought, great, you do you. It's just so supportive. I knew nothing about it, nothing about the details of it. I just thought, well, if that's who he is, you know, I'm so supportive of that. And then YouTube came along with a detransition story by Ellie Palmer and I was blown away by it. I mean, she captured me and there was so much I didn't know. I mean, I was kind of shocked at my ignorance to be honest with you. But then again, mainstream media wasn't picking up any of this information. And I went down the rabbit hole of listening to detransitioner story after detransitioner story just because I'm a lover of psychology. I always loved it. I always loved the idea of becoming a counselor. And I had already had my coach training and advanced coach training. And I just thought, you know what, let's go all the way. Let's just get our master's in counseling so you can really be this incredible coach slash counselor. And so that's the journey that I went on. So I only had like a year left to get my bachelors and it was my capstone project and I was like you know what I'm gonna take on the detransitioner topic because again from my framework I thought Who better than detransitioners to understand the trans journey? That they truly thought they were trans, they went through the process, they took the drugs, maybe some of them had surgery, some of them didn't, and then they realized, it didn't really solve my problems. And so from a psychological perspective, I thought this is the best research topic to do as far as understanding that topic. And so I constructed this research paper and it's so interesting. I basically wanted to interview detransitioners and see if what if you had been given this information and this therapy and this training do you think it would have made an impact and that's where I was trying to get at like how can we reach these kids before they make all of these life-changing irreversible changes to their body and so that's what my paper was and so what was fascinating is no one would touch it In this course, it was an online course, you had to post your paper and get it critiqued by the other students. No one would touch it. And I tried to explain, you know, because they were like, but I really want to support the trans community. And it was almost like this void, like, I guess what I took from it is they're probably ignorant like I was a few years ago. I didn't know about the health consequences of these children of taking puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones. I didn't know about any of that. I didn't know about the social contagion aspect of it. Like all of, I didn't, I didn't put together the prefrontal cortex is not developed over 25. Like I didn't put together all that information. And I just guess I realized that they were, they are where I was. And none of them seemed interested to know anymore. So it just fell flat. But my professor thought it was pretty profound and she was proud of me for my boldness and she was just like, you know what? You took on a pretty intense topic and you know, I'm pretty impressed with you.

Stephanie Winn: I just want to pause at this point in your story because this is, you said that they were in the same place as you, but it's also so different because for you, your story is actually very similar to mine, right? You were all fully supportive of this idea, oh, that's who that person is. Great. How can we support them? until the moment you found out that there are people who go through that and regret it. And the moment you found that out, you felt a moral obligation as well as a psychological curiosity to understand detransitioners' experiences. And that was what it was like for me. I was an affirming therapist because that's what I was being told it was to respect and support people and But the moment that I learned about detransitioners, I wanted to learn everything about their experiences and especially knowing that my profession played a role. So I think that is something that sets some of us apart from others and creates like a rift in our society is that there are some of us who the moment we learn about, the moment we learn that detransitioners exist, we want to know more. We feel compassion, curiosity, concern. And then there are people who otherwise we might feel like we have a lot in common with in terms of our values, our interests, but they find out detransitioners exist and it's like, they don't want to know. They want to cover their eyes and ears. So I can imagine that that was a surreal moment for you to see the different types of reactions there, but I'm glad at least your professor acknowledged that you were doing something important.

Kim O: All right, so take it from there. Yeah, well, I think it's kind of interesting. It's like, and I noticed this, I'm going to kind of bridge it with my life coach instructor was diagnosed with bipolar disorder and she healed it. And I never heard of that before. This was in 2015. And that blew my mind, even though I personally had childhood trauma and I had panic disorder and suicidal ideation and depression for years. But here I had healed it as well. But I don't know why for some reason that just felt really strong to me. But what I've what I've seen is. When you share a story of resilience, of how you actually did overcome something that is threatening to the person who hasn't. And what I want to say right now, if anyone is out there with a diagnosis or identity confusion, I believe in love. I come from a place of love. And I want to tell you right now, you are loved. You are absolutely loved and you are lovable. But maybe we can spend some time together and look at your thoughts and your feelings and go from there. And I know that that is the approach Stephanie believes in as well, getting curious from a place of love. And so you're not judged because you're experiencing those things. I mean, I could have judged myself. It took me until age 40 to pretty much overcome all of my issues. I could have judged myself at any point in that time. But why? I'm here now. For some reason, it happened at 40 for me, and now I'm here. So I just think that that's kind of an important point to mention.

Stephanie Winn: Yeah. So broadening the discussion for a moment, people have recovered from bipolar disorder, even though, if you look at the DSM criteria for bipolar disorder, lifetime prevalence of a single manic episode will qualify you. So there are people who get you know, who get that label of bipolar 1 disorder, for example, because they had a manic episode, even if that manic episode happened, as you were saying, at a time before their brain had fully matured or might have been triggered by trauma. You know, in psychodynamic therapy, we have this idea of manic defenses. Which, I, as someone who doesn't have bipolar disorder, I have a tendency toward manic defenses. When I feel threatened, my gut reaction is to get bigger than the problem, right? That's a manic defense, right? And it's just a matter of degree how big that has to be, how dysregulated you have to be to qualify for a bipolar diagnosis. Anyway, my point is that bipolar is one of those diagnoses that if you meet certain criteria ever, you have that label for life. And yet there are people who have manic episodes that maybe don't get slapped with that label and then they don't have them again or they recover naturally. And so I think it's important that people in the mental health profession provide accurate psycho information, excuse me, psychoeducation, also known as clinical information to people about recovery. And all the things you mentioned, you talked about childhood trauma and how that contributed to panic attacks and suicidal ideation. Absolutely. We as therapists, coaches, healers of any kind, it's our role to believe in people, which I know is part of your philosophy as well. I'm sorry to cut you off, though. I just wanted to comment on that resilience because I think it does tie in to the subject of gender dysphoria, the idea that it confused young people. As you say, people were experiencing identity confusion, which we have compassion for. Their identity becomes fused with that, and then they perceive it as a threat to receive the message that, hey, you can overcome this. There's hope for you. You might not always suffer this way. And good news, we don't have to medicalize. Good news, you don't have to make lifelong decisions from a dysregulated state.

Kim O: Yeah, exactly. That's exactly the point that I was trying to make. So anyway, so back to, so then I went on to get my master's because I thought, you know, let's just do this all. Why don't, why don't we go all the way? And I felt like it would just open up maybe possibly more doors for me. And about five classes in, um, I just couldn't take it anymore. And it was just, it was so woke. And again, because I'm coming from having been coached or trained in coaching, the underlying principle of coaching is belief. in the person. Belief that they have all the answers within them. And I truly do believe that. That's why I believe in your resilience. Resilience is something, some people think resilience is something you build up. No, you have it. I believe you have it within you because you're here. It's you are awakened to your resilience. And sometimes you're awakened to your resilience through a trial, through overcoming something difficult. When I look back at my life, I'm like, dang, I sure am resilient. That's not said in a bragging way. It's just like I awaken to my own ability to move past really treacherous, ugly, dark, negative thoughts. And what helped me is, you know, um, understanding where those come from, but I'm kind of getting ahead of myself back to the masters. So I thought this was so fascinating. Um, my textbook was from 2009 and there were terms in it, like microaggressions. And again, from a coaching perspective, that's not something that you would It just feels like this victim mentality, like you're a victim to microaggressions, where from a coaching perspective, it's like, well, you can transcend what anything, anybody throws at you with your mindset. And this is where I throw some spirituality in there, too. You know, Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is within. And Buddha was basically like, if you rely on anything outside yourself, if you rely on anything external, you will suffer. And those core tenets helped me heal. And I knew if they could help me heal, they could help others heal. Like what if you stopped and just believed that nothing external outside of you can touch you? Like you actually are resilient within. So because probably my age too, maybe if I was younger, like if I was in my twenties getting my master's, I might muscle through it so I could be like Stephanie and be a counselor and have the degree and, you know, open yourself up to all that. But I think because of my age, I just couldn't bear to go through. It's hard work. I'm totally aware of the work that Stephanie and anyone out there who has gotten their license to counsel has been through. The training, the internships. So I applaud you. That's incredible. But I knew I had to get out. And what's kind of cool is I do believe when one door shuts, another door opens. And what opened up for me is like immediately I had like 10 coaching clients. come to me just naturally. And so, you know, I'm a big believer in that.

Stephanie Winn: When you talk about your reaction to microaggressions, I think it's it's easy to get into kind of culture wars over this notion because the the other perspective just to play devil's advocate for a moment is well that it's akin to gaslighting to dismiss the experiences that people have of being subtly put down for some, let's say, immutable characteristic. But what I hear you saying is it ties into this concept of sort of opportunity cost that Yes, it's not so much a question of whether we empirically agree or disagree that something called a microaggression exists. It's what's the practical utility of focusing on that and of putting on that pair of glasses where you're looking at the world through that framework. Because the human mind is an incredibly powerful tool. And also, reality is so vastly complex that we do have to have heuristics to simplify things. So we have to have frameworks that we look through. And if you look through that, pair of glasses that sees the world in terms of microaggressions, then you're doing that potentially at the cost of cultivating a more charitable and generous outlook that makes way for positive human interactions or for your own resilience, for the sense that you're somebody who doesn't take other people's stuff personally, that it rolled off your back, that it's humorous to you, or for You know, as I said, a more charitable interpretation of what that person might have meant when they said that thing or what could have gone on in their day, which is, to be fair, I think part of what we do in good therapy as well. I've worked with people with severely depressive outlooks on life. who are deeply entrenched in the habit of interpreting things through very negative filters. And so sometimes opportunities come up in their life, like whatever they might be projecting onto a stranger who, you know, did something they didn't like. They cut in the checkout line or their dog was off leash when their dog should have been on the leash or whatever it is. You know, sometimes as a thought experiment, I will guide people in thinking about Could there be any alternate explanation that would help you see that person in a more favorable light? And so how do you feel when you go through your day using your imagination more constructively to imagine something more charitable compared to when you're looking through this negative filter? Now, that's not to say that we should set aside any safety concerns, safety first, but That's what comes to mind for me when I hear the opportunity cost of the microaggressions. And you talk about your age, and I'm not sure exactly what age you are, but you're at an age in life that many people just don't have time for BS anymore. And I can imagine you feeling like you're wasting precious hours of your life sitting around talking about microaggressions when you could be getting straight to the point of helping people find their resilience. Exactly. Was it a loss for you? Was it challenging to decide to let go of grad school or did it come very easily?

Kim O: Well, I grappled. I had to really sit with it. So one thing that I teach is witnessing your feelings. So yes, with a microaggression or anything that if something's hurting, let's witness that. So it's not like, let it just go. No, let's witness it. And then you can proceed from there once you've witnessed the pain or hurt, because you're probably witnessing emotional energy from a trauma when you were younger. And so I had to do that whole process to come to the person I am today is to witness all the pain of, we call them inner children, but it's really, it's, it's old emotional stack energy, keeping you looping in the past rather than living in the beautiful present moment. But, um, yeah, so, um, I'm sorry, where were we?

Stephanie Winn: I keep cutting you off. I'm sorry. No, it's good. Well, so you were five classes into grad school, and I think you said that the way your grad school was structured was one kind of intensive class at a time. So you'd gotten to that point. You decided you were sick of it. Was it a loss? Was it easy to get up? And how did you pivot? How did you shift gears? You said that actually you had 10 new coaching clients right away, so I'm sure that felt like a blessing.

Kim O: Yeah, but I will say, so I allowed myself to go through the process of grief. And I did. I did probably cry for a few days, to be honest. I'm a highly sensitive person and I have to honor that. And. You know, because it was a dream, because to be honest with you, even though I had experienced trauma, your purpose still chases you. I would say your heart still pursues you. So even being like feeling like a very shameful person from trauma from the age of four and through all those years, there was still kind of like, I want to be a counselor. I think that'd be awesome. And so yeah, this dream I had kind of had to die. And I feel like I was bummed and I was angry at the APA because at that time too, because I had been exposed to detransitioners, I thought the APA had lost their mind. Like what? Why wasn't there any acknowledgement of detransitioners? And I don't know if this has changed, but at the time of me writing that paper and then on the master's level, they were still supporting gender affirming care. And to me, that lacks any curiosity, any exploration, which is what you do as a counselor. So I had a really hard time with that. I feel like I was mad at them. I was angry, so I allowed myself to feel the anger, to feel the grief. And then after all of that, to me, I just then jumped. I jumped off the cliff of risk and said, you know what? I'm just going to jump and I'm going to believe in this is where some of my spirituality comes in. I'm just going to believe in my passion. I'm going to believe in myself and believe in the love energy I'm shooting out to the world. And what do you know? I quit and boom. like 10 clients, so. That kind of wraps up how the master's program thing went. And then just for those who are deciding, again, I feel like where I am at in life, you know, is the proper decision for me. But I totally applaud the person who continues and is going to make a difference in the counseling profession because it's a beautiful, amazing profession. And so is coaching. I was actually telling Stephanie that I think with particular clients, they could use both counseling and coaching at the same time. Again, I don't know how people feel about that, but coaching just has such a different feel and approach. And I personally have had both and both were very beneficial to me. And then in my kind of my later years of really stepping into my purpose and my energy and who I am, coaching kind of took over for me. But definitely in the early days, I feel like the counseling was highly necessary and it was honestly with a counselor at the age of 36 was when I actually spoke out loud what happened to me at four and I will always love this man. I will always appreciate him. I still send people to him. He's held space for me as I cried out what happened to me at four. I'd held it in that long. And so, yeah, I will highly value counselors forever.

Stephanie Winn: I love sleep. Sound sleep is a crucial foundation of good mental and physical health, from mood and concentration to metabolism and cellular repair. And I sleep very well thanks to my Eight Sleep Pod Pro Cover. My side of the bed is programmed to be warm when I get in and cool down to a neutral temperature in the middle of the night so I don't wake up overheated like I used to. How would you customize your bed temperature? Visit 8sleep.com and use promo code SUMTHERAPIST to take up to $200 off your purchase. Even if they're already running another sale, this code will get you an additional $50 off. 8sleep currently ships not only within the USA, but also to Canada, the UK, select countries in the European Union, and Australia. Thanks for considering purchases that support the show. In your view, what are the differences between counseling and coaching?

Kim O: So I know that counselors, well, first off, the big difference is, you know, you're, you're governed by a board. And again, I took those first five classes in master's level, so I became acutely aware of the ethics. And I think they're really important. And honestly, when I took that ethics course, I was shocked. I was shocked that a person would go through all of that. And then, you know, you had to study and learn the violations that counselors were doing. I couldn't believe it. I don't know what your experience was when you learned that. I was like, how could you spend all that time becoming a counselor and then send a client pictures of yourself naked or whatever? Like, literally, I found out stuff like that. So that was just shocking to me. I think I'm too much of a free spirit to have ever truly been a counselor because I actually do spend time with clients. I'm relational. And I also say I'm kind of like Jesus. Jesus had his disciples and he spent time with them. So it's not that I do that with all my clients, but if it arises, I will like maybe paint together or, um, and, you know, maybe there's, I know there's, um, art therapists, but I'm very open. Like I'll do all kinds of things. Um, I'll do sound healing. Sometimes most of it is coaching, like literally where we're sitting down or it's video. Cause I coach from anywhere in the world, but. I feel like that would have felt very constraining to me, that I couldn't be a little more relational. And I do understand why, though, some people can't control themselves. I will hug clients, and that's probably something you absolutely cannot do as a counselor. And of course, I'm careful. Like, if I'm coaching a man, I'm probably not going to hug them. I'm going to keep that professional. But, you know, I was a hairstylist for 30 years. I've touched people, literally touched their heads, kind of like doctors do. Like, I'm touching your head, I'm massaging your head, I'm cutting your hair. It's very relational. It's who I am. And so I just trust myself. I know who I am and I know I would never cross that line. That's who I am. I have too much integrity. And so I always just say, like, I hold my energy in a healthy professional space, especially with the opposite sex or someone who is married, so that they don't feel any energy from me that would say, oh, let's, you know, no, absolutely not. So I think that those are really important distinctions. But as far as like when you're actually talking with the client, and I don't know if some counselors do this, maybe Stephanie would have to clue me into this, but I really build a foundation on teaching people that they are their higher self and then you have an ego within. And making that distinction between higher self and ego is kind of the foundation of how I coach. That's my way. And when people understand, and I actually like the term soul self, but I let clients decide what term they want to use. what resonates for them. And to me, again, you don't have to follow any religion. I can adapt to whatever your belief system is. But kind of introducing this idea behind yourself and the fact that there's a wounded ego or an inner child within that was hurt in your childhood. And when you have fear, or hurt or you're projecting outward or you have an unhealthy defense mechanism, it's actually not you. It's the wounded inner child within. And so I find that when clients can kind of separate themselves from all these unhealthy coping mechanisms that they had to use when they were children, There's like a relief. It's like they can release self-judgment. And I have found releasing self-judgment is extremely beneficial to be able to move forward in healing. And what I can say is, again, because I had quite a bit of counseling as well, I know that some counselors absolutely integrate those ideas, cognitive behavioral therapy. I mean, I use that a lot as well in their counseling. So maybe there isn't such a big difference. But I will say, too, for sure, in coaching, the protocol is to kind of this forward momentum. So I always have my clients decide what their heartwork is until we meet the next week. And again, some counselors maybe do that, maybe some don't, but it's absolutely kind of part of the protocol of coaching is accountability and something to integrate, something that came up in the session that they can intentionally focus on for the next week. And we also create sometimes a way to measure that or a way to, you know, integrated and oftentimes will let the client kind of decide for themselves what that will be. But sometimes, you know, depending on how much trauma they've experienced, they need a little help from me, some ideas. So I will offer ideas. How does this sound to you? So, I mean, Stephanie, maybe you can kind of clue me in as if I'm, if coaching, how, how different it sounds to you than counseling.

Stephanie Winn: I think the amount of difference probably has more to do with which which counselor you're comparing it to, you know, because within the field of therapy, there are people who are a lot more structured in their approach, who give homework or I mean, homework is one way I'm calling it. I occasionally have clients that ask for homework. They feel like it would be helpful for us to come up with something for them to do between sessions. And I'm happy to work with that. With therapy, though, we also, it's important to explore the significance of anything. So it really depends on the person. I'm also, like you, very relational. So there might be, for a certain client, they might request homework. And what might seem relevant for me to explore there is the longing to be told what to do by an authority figure or the sense that you know, they need some structure or they'll fall apart. And maybe that's actually more interesting to explore in therapy. Whereas for another client, I might just be more intuitively drawn to work on that and say, yeah, let's come up with an action item for you. So I think my own style is so eclectic and so kind of customizable to my client. But I think like the delta between what you do and therapy is smaller than the delta between what one therapist does and what another therapist does in their practice. I also think that your sort of resilience framework and maybe that's one distinction I would make between therapy and coaching is that And not all therapists would agree with this, but the therapy is based on a pathology model, a model of psychopathology, of diagnosis. And that's such a double-edged sword because diagnosis can be helpful. It can also be hurtful. It's something that's subjective, that's ever-evolving. We're on the DSM-5. When I was in grad school, it was the DSM-4. Pretty soon, I'll be on the DSM-6. You know, we're always changing our understanding of things. The DSM is also a very political document. But billing insurance is it makes therapy a lot more accessible for people. But in order to bill for insurance, we have to have a diagnosis. A lot of people don't know that, by the way. So if you're listening and you're just finding this out for the first time, if you have ever used your insurance to see a therapist, you've been given a diagnosis. It might be a minor diagnosis like adjustment disorder, but they have to have a diagnostic code to bill. Otherwise, what are they billing for? You don't have a condition that's being treated. So I think that There are some things that appeal to me about your model because it's not looking for what's wrong with the person, it's looking for what's right. And also I think there's, and again, there's not so much difference between therapy and coaching as there is difference between one type of therapy and another type of therapy. But how much do we focus on the past, present, or future? I've heard some therapists remark lately that we don't talk about the future very much in therapy. And I think that's one thing that's a little different about my style is I'm actually more future oriented just by nature and the way that I work with people. I think because as a therapist and as a highly sensitive person, part of what people like you and I are especially good at is noticing patterns. and being able to predict behavior based on patterns. And some of that is based on research and what we've studied, but some of it is based on just experience, seeing people move through life as we're highly attuned to how the consequences of their actions lead up to different consequences. So when it comes to pattern mapping, You know, I see where my clients have been and I see what they're doing now. And intuitively, I'm not always sharing them because I'm careful what I share with people. But I am making predictions, which I hold lightly. But I'm forming hypotheses in my mind about where will these actions lead? Not just like what's driving the actions from the past or from the present, but where are these leading? Right. And then if that's not where you want to be going, then maybe we need to rethink what you're doing. Right. So there is that element of behavior change, that element of future orientation that I do see as being a part of therapy. But I but a lot of therapy is also more like about the past. And of course, those aren't on there. They're not not connected. Right. Oftentimes, what's holding someone back from moving in a healthier direction in the future is in the past. But what's most interesting is how the past is showing up in the present.

Kim O: Yeah, it is very similar. I do like your explanation there. I think another distinction could be, since we're talking about it, is coaching won't necessarily need to hear the exact stories that happened to you in your past, but we do attend to the feeling. And I found that really powerful because repeating your story can be re-traumatizing. And it's like you're keeping that energy alive. But so the way I like to describe it is we can visit, briefly visit the past, and kind of attend to some of those feelings. And then, and then we can move to the present. what, you know, how we handle that in the present. So, um, that I think is maybe a possible distinction because I do know that it was coaching that brought me more present and less talking about my past. And I really enjoyed that. But I also believe I was ready for that. So maybe, maybe I did need to do that back in my 20s and early 30s. And maybe I needed to talk about my past more. But, um, when coaching came along, I feel like I was absolutely ready to deal with the present and, and presently deal with the inner children that are coming up. But you are absolutely aware that these inner children are from the Misunderstandings, harmful experiences, neglect, whatever, from the past.

Stephanie Winn: So a couple times you talked about inner child, witnessing self, ego, higher self, things like this, which is kind of eluding at or hinting at parts work, which is related to internal family systems. I know you've said that you use internal family systems as well as the Enneagram in your work. So how do those come up?

Kim O: Well, I think I'd like to describe that in the way I could describe it is how I was able to process what happened to me at four. And so bear with me as I kind of explain. I had something very traumatic happen to me at four. And it's actually my earliest memory. So my earliest memory is a terrible one. And when it when it was happening or, you know, at the close of it happening, I felt extreme shame. So I'm four years old and I'm feeling extreme shame. But then what I realized again, so this is older me looking back and making sense of what happened. I went from feeling shame to I am shame. So I went from a feeling to an identity. And of course, as children, our brain is not developed. So we're naturally going to do that. So that is why, again, when I share this with people, they're actually able to release self-judgment pretty quickly to realize that what happened as a kid, you felt a really bad feeling because feelings are not bad. Feelings are meant to be witnessed and felt. But then, the way I describe it is, you have an ego mechanism within for survival. And the ego is the one that is reacting to this feeling that you had of shame. So the ego is freaking out, like, what the heck just happened? That was really bad. You must be bad. So and people can resonate with that because we have these automatic negative thoughts and they don't match with who we are, but they do match with what happened to us. So what I realized is I am not what happened to me. There's a separation there, because if you think about it, if that didn't happen to me, I would have continued on as Kim, free-spirited, fun, loving, adventurous, right? But this event happened to me and suddenly, did I suddenly then become bad and shameful? No. So I am not the identity of the shame. That's separate. That's ego's ploy. Wounded, and I like to say wounded ego or inner child within. That's their coping mechanism. And so making that distinction that I can actually, I am actually my higher self. You know, the person I was when I was born as a baby who is precious, innocent and pure. That's who I truly am. That's your higher self. And she can witness the pain of this inner child. and so once we move in that direction where we can actually witness these feelings and hold space for them and that's a process it takes some time and it and it can feel painful but when you can actually witness them from your higher self rather than identifying with it's a whole different ball game you can actually do that more than if you just were in a space of you know I am bad. I am shameful. I mean, mine was, um, I was terrified of ever being embarrassed again because of what happened to me. So I had all these, my inner child had all these defense mechanisms of do, do never be embarrassed again. Never put yourself in a position where you could possibly embarrassed again. But then when I realize that I am my higher self, I actually can be embarrassed and I'm fine. But it's the inner child that's freaking out that can never be hurt or embarrassed again. And so one of the things that I really had to heal was, again, because I'm an Enneagram 4. So if you all want to check out Enneagram, I'm big on Enneagram in helping people find the foundation of who they are. Like, let's just start there. because trauma does steal your identity. Because again, at four, my identity was stolen. Like, I'm shameful. I'm bad. I'm not enough. That's the biggie. I'm not enough. And so I move into adulthood because I had parents that had their own traumas and they weren't equipped to interrupt that message. So nothing came along to interrupt that message. I wasn't given emotional support. I wasn't told that wasn't right. It was just like ignored. And so there was no self-esteem building and no support and no affection. That was kind of my childhood as far as that. And so you go into adulthood and I believe it takes us longer to grow up if you've experienced trauma because you have to kind of undo all of that. And until the right circumstances come along that open your eyes to, you know, the fact that you're living from your shame rather than living from your higher self. Um, I mean, I made horrible choices in mates and those, I call them expensive mistakes. Um, very expensive mistakes over time and money for me. But at the end of the day, I'm here today and it's great. But I really do understand what it's like to live in hell and make choices from your wounded ego. And I guess that's what really drives me. So yeah, that's so back to the Enneagram. So I'm a four, which means we're romantic. We're individualists. We're all about our authenticity. And so honestly, I believe it was the Myers-Briggs test. So even though I hadn't quite finished my degree in psychology and I became a hairdresser, I was still eating up all the psychology I could and just getting little nuggets here and there. And somehow I came across the Myers-Briggs test and I took it and I'm an INFP and that rocked my world because everything I thought that was bad about me and wrong and I should change was right there. It literally was telling me, you're okay being you. So that was huge for me. So to be honest with you, that is a foundation of when I coach too, is to teach. And I really like the Enneagram, but we can use Myers-Briggs, we can use a variety, but the Enneagram is really cool because it really kind of goes with like, what is your emotional theme? What are your instincts? And when you understand like your main drive, is your main drive in life to be peaceful? Is your main drive in life to be your authentic self? Do you mind if I share what yours is, Stephanie?

Stephanie Winn: Well now you can go ahead and reach out to developers. I'll just let listeners know.

Kim O: Her main drive is just like moral principled. Morally principled. And of course, that could look different for whomever. But so once you understand your main drive in life, like, wow, you kind of can kind of put the pieces of the puzzle together of who you are. And people are really touched by that. It like provides like an affirmation of self. So I guess you'd call it self-knowledge. So, yeah, I hope I answered that well.

Stephanie Winn: Yeah, I mean, I think I haven't really talked about the Enneagram on this show. I might do like a full episode deep dive with I don't know if there's anyone listening who wants to come on and do that or knows someone great to talk to about that. But yeah, I I like Chris Huertz's work on the Enneagram. Do you know his? Christopher Hewitt, he had a great way, I'm trying to remember, he explains it to Ryan O'Neill on the Sleeping At Last podcast. Are you familiar with Sleeping At Last? Lovely musical artist. As a one, you know, as a one, I would say one of the things that ones need is we need to see examples of people doing really excellent work in the world to feel like we are not the only people who care about making things excellent and as beautiful and as wonderful as they can be like we need to see art and nature and And situations where we're not in control but either God or nature or someone who is principled is bringing about something really wonderful. And so for me, Ryan O'Neill, Sleeping Glass, is one of those artists that I'm like, oh, thank God. You're such an angel. You're such a beam of light in this world. It puts me at ease to know that you exist. And he did this whole series on the Enneagram where he did a song dedicated to each of the nine types. And he polled all his friends to find out what their Enneagram types are. and had each friend submit sounds. So those sounds would be woven into the song for that type. For each song, he had only musicians who were that type could play on that song. And he speaks with Christopher Hewartz on the Sleeping Glass podcast, and he interviews Chris to give insights into the Enneagram as he goes through the song for each one. And what does Chris Hewartz say? I'm trying to remember. Type one, strive for moral excellence through diligence. I don't know, I'm forgetting. But it's also connected to our deepest fear, right? Yes, it is. For me, it's like the deepest fear is of being morally corrupt. That's my shame. That's my thing that I'm running from is, what if I'm really evil, right? And then we overcompensate. you know, try to prove to ourselves and the world that we are, we are good and right and principled. And so, yeah, I mean, I think the Enneagram is an excellent tool.

Kim O: I'm seeing a little woo, but yeah, but it kind of really isn't. My biggest fear is not being significant. So, yeah, when you tune into that, it's like something, when you hear truth about yourself, it makes you feel alive inside.

Stephanie Winn: Doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah, and it's important to know what vulnerabilities to shore up, because that's a big vulnerability for me. You know, the idea, the fact that I can remember those moments, just like you describe your first memory of shame when you were a small child, and shame being one of the core emotions for the emotional types, the twos, threes, and fours. You know, knowing that I can recall memories in my childhood where I genuinely questioned, am I evil? Am I fundamentally morally corrupt? As a child, you know, I remember that. And it's so important for me to know this about myself because that allows that witnessing part that you talk about, right? Like the higher self can witness the wounded ego. If I'm not aware, if I'm not able to put any perspective or any distance between me and that part of me that fears that, then I become a target for anyone who wants to use that fear against me, and people do all the time. Because why? Because I put myself out there saying things that are unpopular. But that I feel compelled by moral duty to do because I am a one, right? I strive for moral excellence. There are people who try to attack me who truly want to make me feel evil. And if I wasn't aware that that's a core wound, as you say, the wounded ego, then I would be more vulnerable to that. But it's the fact that I can I can feel the pain and the hurt and the fear that that part of me that's like, What if I really am evil and corrupt at a core level, but I know that I'm not that? That's just a fear.

Kim O: It's super helpful. I have a friend who's a one as well, and they're so afraid of being imperfect. I think that's another liability, I guess. A wounded ego defense mechanism for a one is perfectionism. And so, yeah, I've mentored him, and he does the practice of witnessing, oh, Mr. Perfection is here. And you know, like you said, you can have fun with it, which is always a great avenue.

Stephanie Winn: If you're looking for a simple way to take better care of yourself, check out Organifi. I start every day with a glass of their original green juice powder mixed with water. It contains moringa, ashwagandha, chlorella, spirulina, matcha, wheatgrass, beets, turmeric, mint, lemon, and coconut water. 100% organic with no added sugar. It's the best tasting superfood supplement I've ever tried. It's super easy to make and it makes me feel good. Organifi also makes several other delicious and nutritious superfood blends such as red juice, immune support, protein powders, a golden milk mix, and even superfood hot cocoa. Check out the collection at Organifi.com slash Sumtherapist. That's O-R-G-A-N-I-S-I dot com slash Sumtherapist. And use code Sumtherapist to take 20% off your order. One of the concepts for anyone who's interested in the Enneagram is sort of the direction of healing and integration or the direction that we go under stress or disintegration. And for ones, when we're at our best, our best we adopt some of the qualities of the seven. The seven is sometimes called the adventurer or the enthusiast or the epicure. The seven has this sort of joie de vivre, this love of life. And they don't need things to be perfect. And so one of the things that brings that out for the one is long vacations, long periods of time away from work, like enough to get out of that position of responsibility that we constantly impose on ourselves and to be in a setting where someone else is in charge. So you're not evaluating and someone else is doing a good job of it, right? Like I said, ones we need to see those examples of people doing really excellent work. So we know that we're not alone. The weight of the world isn't on our shoulders. It's not all on us to make the world a better place. There are people making the world a better place in so many different ways with so many different talents. So I think getting out into the beauty of nature, for example, where I didn't create this. There's some there's a much greater intelligence at play here and I just get to sort of bask in it or even being in a different culture. These are all things that I'm feeling like, oh, I need to I'm too much in my oneness these days. Despite the fact that I'm laughing, I'm actually really stressed out all the time. But let's talk about, because I realize where the time is at, and I have not asked you yet about your book series. You are currently working on a children's book series called You Can't Steal My Smile. You're doing this together with AD Transitioner. And it's designed to help parents raise resilient children. So please tell us about your book series.

Kim O: It's just such a thrill. And it comes from just living from our truth and living in a space of love and service. So back in January, I reached out to a detransitioner I saw on YouTube because I felt led to. That's how I live my life. And I was like, you might think I'm creepy, but I just felt like reaching out to you. And I didn't know we were writing a book series back then. I just reached out and saw what happened. And he replied, his name is Nicholas Blooms. He has his own channel as well. And, you know, we got to know each other. And I would say it was it was a little bit of a mentoring, which I'm happy to do because I know he's making a major impact in his world and in the transition world. And. Suddenly, I found out like he does art. And then it just turned into it, like, because we're so he's a one as well. So we were just so passionate about what, how can we make an impact? And for me, what I saw was. Parents need help with how to raise children, knowing they're resilient. So in some ways, this children's book series is, is for parents to then help them. teach their children that they're resilient, that they're not victims of their circumstances. And of course, when it comes to children's books, you have to make it fun and cute and, you know, giggly at some times. And, you know, for me, who loves variety and it's just another creative angle for me, I had such a blast writing the stories. The first one is called I Want Prickles Too. I live in the desert. And oddly, this hot, dry place is where I healed from my trauma by walking outside of nature, like you were saying, Stephanie, the healing power of nature with the saguaros. And the saguaro has become like a symbol of resilience to me. And I feel such a close kinship with this tall, strangely you know, designed plant tree with prickles. And I think what also helped birth it was my nephews, Anton and Elijah. And they came out and Anton was a little bit older, like maybe like four, where he could really relate. And I realized, you know, he felt guided and led by my energy of resilience. And I brought him out to the desert and he fell in love with the Saguaro too. So Anton is the main character of my first book, I Want Prickles Too. And yeah, we're just basically teaching how children are resilient within. And then another main core tenant of that is that you're resilient to your own feelings. So the subsequent books in this series will be addressing like, you know, Roe the rabbit has lost his happy hop. And because fear took over, But in the story, we see like he's able to process his feelings of fear and find his happy hop again. So again, we just took fun stories of these desert animals. Gina the javelina, she's hilarious. She's a very hilarious character. And she actually gets a little rude. so you know children experience all the different feelings and her friends love her anyway so um it's just it's just really fun i look forward to that coming out and we're trying to get it published with a publisher so we'll see how that goes but um yeah we'll just see but i have is this a good time for me to kind of mention a few books that i have

Stephanie Winn: yeah but are you are we still talking about the saguaro series because i'm so curious about the plot of i want prickles too is this um is it a metaphor for the gender stuff like wishing that you were something that you're not can you tell us about the storyline a little bit absolutely so um anton

Kim O: and so our books have the whimsy of Nicholas because his his art is very whimsical but it also includes real life photos so it's this mixture of the different saguaros in the in the desert and so he sees the different shapes. And it's cute and it's funny because, you know, obviously the swallows have little eyes and they're characters in the story too. And he takes them through the desert and he gets to see. And so we let the child kind of process because you do want to teach your children to think for themselves. to use their imagination. So that's definitely a part of the story. By the end of the story, he realizes, you know, one of the pages is really cute. It's like How do you bloom? Because sorrows are kind of like this odd tree, right? But in the spring, they bloom the most beautiful flowers out of their tops. It's to me, like I, I'm still in awe of the desert bloom. And so, you know, the book will ask, like, how do you bloom? And so it's just cute things like that. When every book ends with, we call them, I keep my smile reflection. So it's a moment for parent and child to kind of talk and kind of share about sort of what happened in the story. And that's, again, it's going to instigate conversation with your kid and also to listen to your kid, to hear them share their feelings and their thoughts about the topic at hand. And then I always finish with some sort of affirmation. And then it just sticks with that same idea of I keep my smile. So that's the children's approach to you are resilient, meaning no one can take your smile from you. You have the power to keep your smile. So I hope I gave it justice, that description.

Stephanie Winn: Does Anton Anton Anton Yes, does he eventually realize that the grass is not greener with those who have prickles and that he's perfectly.

Kim O: He does realize that.

Stephanie Winn: Yeah, I think prickles are a good metaphor, too, because when I think about the RGD stuff, like so so many of these girls are they want something to hide behind that makes them feel safe and protected. Right. And we know that from listening to the transitioners that they felt like hiding the vulnerability of being female behind the mask of being so-called transmask. And so the prickles are, I think, a great symbol of that, right? That I want something sharp and cool where nobody can touch me.

Kim O: But yeah, I found that was a great part. Yeah. What were you going to say about your other books? Oh, I was going to mention too in the children's book series, also we have Ophelia the owl wonders what is a soul. And I love all of them. But I don't know that one has a special place in my heart where I've actually read it to adults. And it almost bring tears to our eyes. Again, it's just sweet. It's not depressing at all. But it's very sweet and precious. But yeah, my other books, so I just published this one, Living in the Power of Your Energetic Signature, it might be backwards, but anyway, with Enneagram, Astrology, and Chakras, so it has a little fun if you like diving into that. But the Enneagram stuff is really kind of fun because I really go through each one so you can understand it quickly and easily. Here we are. Here's the one. And so I use some imagery too. And I don't know about you, but when I learn, I want it to be interesting, colorful, beautiful, and easy to read so that I make that an emphasis. And then since I did mention ego, this is also one of my key workbooks, I guess I would call it what is ego. And again, I just I use large writing and imagery so that it's not difficult to comprehend. But of course, you know, it is optimum to do it with a coach to do any of my materials. I have quite a few workbooks. Just so much more comes out of it, more expansive, because when you have a witness, it's almost like the coach or the counselor is showing you how to witness yourself by first demonstrating what it feels like and looks like to witness you. And so then you can sort of learn that and then witness your own inner child. So I just really appreciate the opportunity to be here. And before I leave, though, I wanted to shout out I Saw No Way Back and this is the film that Stephanie helped produce. This film is so amazing. If you're watching this and you have not seen it yet, right now, go get it, watch it, send it to your friends. It's done so well. It's not pushy at all. It just presents the story. And you see it through the eyes of five, I think, detransitioners. And you really get the full scope, because Stephanie uses research. And you get to feel through these journeys. and it's just highly stimulating and I couldn't believe how fast it went. I think it's an hour and a half long but it literally felt like 30 minutes to me. It was so riveting. So I'm just so grateful to Stephanie for being a voice because children are so precious and innocent and they deserve our best. And so I'm so glad that I can stand beside Stephanie as another person that is out there speaking out love and in our way and our unique gifts. And yeah, so just thank you, Stephanie, for this opportunity to share. And hopefully when my Sorosel You Can't Steal My Smile books come out, that's just another tool that parents and kids have.

Stephanie Winn: That's great. Thank you for that, Kim. And I will take this opportunity to say you can find our film at nowaybackfilm.com. It's also now on Amazon, so you can get DVDs on Amazon. I don't think you can stream it on Amazon. And you can use my promo code, SOMTHERAPIST, for 20% off your order. And on that note, before we wrap up, I think since you have taken an interest in detransitioners, you've written a paper, you've formed a personal relationship with Nicholas Blams, you've written these books together, and you've been down the rabbit hole. Given your interest in detransitioners, your personal experiences with them, and your experiences just coaching and mentoring and offering life wisdom if there are any detransitioners listening or people who love them. I just want to offer you the floor for any words of wisdom or compassion that you have to offer. Oh no, I made you cry.

Kim O: It's all good. We welcome tears. I just have such a hard So as an empath, I'm sure I'm feeling you right now, and you're not alone. There is love and joy in life, and you're probably on that path now. And people like myself and Stephanie are here for you. And don't hesitate. Reach out to us. This is why we're here. And we do have, we've been given gifts by our recipe, how we were created, and we can help you discover your own recipe. And so that you can be this beautiful force in this world. Cause you're here for a reason and your story is part of why you're here. And so I'm just so honored to know Stephanie and Nicholas and just, um, be a part of letting the world see you. you're meant to be seen?

Stephanie Winn: Well, before we began recording, when you were just sharing about your story and how you became interested in this topic, you said that you have a big heart for people who have experienced identity confusion, that it's something that you've been through, and that that was part of your story with the trauma that happened to you as a child. And so I guess I just want to kind of add that to what you shared in your messaging, I understand that my profession and the medical profession have all but completely destroyed many people's trust in us. And there are detransitioners who will never see a therapist. And I respect that choice. I am saddened by that choice. I feel the need to let people know, let people know in my profession that we've really broken the trust of some people who could potentially benefit the most from therapy. People who have deep, complex trauma should not be in a position where they can't turn to people who know how to help people with complex trauma. But that's where we are, and it's on us. But setting aside, because I don't think any of those people are listening to this podcast. I think the detransitioners who hate therapists, they're not listening to my podcast. They hate me too. They don't trust my motives. They probably think I'm a grifter, even though I made more money in private practice as a nobody than I have since I've thrown all my energy into all this public stuff, I swear. But for those who are open to the idea that people like you or me could help them, I think I just want to kind of, you know, tailgate off of what you said and add that many of us do relate to that identity confusion or whatever pain, suffering, trauma, humiliation, whatever drove you to make those choices. And the reason we feel so strongly about this is because we know it's not right that when you were in a really dark place or really immature place, you were allowed to self-destruct because we know that we would have done the same because it's just part of the human condition. And it's not something that makes you uniquely flawed or bad or wrong. Earlier, we were talking on the Enneagram. I shared my core fear as an Enneagram one that I'm fundamentally morally corrupt in a way that makes me evil you shared your your core fear and a lot of people have core fears and I think that whatever core fears are at play for detransitioners just know that you know as as exceptional as your situation is and as terrible as what happened to you is that You know, in some ways, it's just another manifestation of the human condition in a situation where you weren't properly guarded and properly treated by authorities. And so those of us who are offering our support or compassion, we are coming from a place of relatedness. And I think this whole trans exceptionalism and culture does us all a disservice because we are all just really men and women, boys and girls manifesting the human condition in different ways. So yeah, thank you, Kim, for your big heart and for the work that you do. I think we already covered this at the beginning, but I'll just recap at the end. The name of your website, HeartWorkU, as in the letter U dot com, HeartWorkU YouTube channel. Anywhere else that people can find you? Are your books on your website? Are they on Amazon?

Kim O: Yeah, they're on Amazon. I have a link tree. It's heartworkyou is my link tree. So yeah, you can hit me up. You can contact me. You can see my books. Yeah, all of that.

Stephanie Winn: So that'd be great. OK. And I'll be sure to include all those links in the show notes. Any books that you have on Amazon, they'll go into my bookshop, soundtherapist.com slash bookshop. And we'll also have those Amazon affiliate links in the show notes. Yeah. Thanks for joining me, Kim. It's been a pleasure. I hope you enjoyed this episode of You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist podcast. To check out my book recommendations, articles, wellness products, guest episodes on other podcasts, consulting services, and lots more, visit SomeTherapist.com or follow me on Twitter or Instagram at SomeTherapist. If you'd like to go deeper, join my community at somekindoftherapist.locals.com. Members can dialogue with other listeners, post questions for upcoming podcast guests to respond to, or ask questions for me to respond to in exclusive members-only Q&A live streams. To learn more about the gender crisis, watch our film, No Way Back, The Reality of Gender-Affirming Care, at nowaybackfilm.com. Special thanks to my producers, Eric and Amber Beals at Different Mix, and to Joey Pecoraro for our theme song, Half Awake. If you appreciate this podcast and want more people to find it, kindly take a moment to rate, review, like, comment, and share on your platforms of choice. Of course, just because I am some therapist doesn't mean I'm your therapist. This podcast is not a substitute for medical advice. If you need help, ask your doctor or browse your local therapists online. And whatever you do next, please take care of yourself. Eat well, sleep well, move your body, get outside, and tell someone you love them. You're worth it.