You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist

Swell AI Transcript: 96. Layton Ulery part 2.mp3
Layton: My body had undergone a trauma. Synthetic testosterone to a female body is a trauma. It is a traumatic event to the endocrine system, traumatic event to the nervous system. It made me very sad. I did the subcutaneous injections, which was in the stomach fat of either side of my belly button. I had these hard nodules. that had formed in my stomach at the time from how many times I had injected myself with testosterone. I remember just kind of gently massaging those with oil and just sobbing because I was like, oh my goodness, how could I do this to myself? How could I do this to my body? How was I ever so dissociated that I thought that this was the answer?
Stephanie Winn: You must be some kind of therapist. part two with Leighton. My first time doing a part two, which is kind of overdue because my episodes are crazy long and there have been plenty of previous conversations that really could have been broken down, but we didn't plan it that way. This time, however, doing something a little bit differently, just really giving myself and Leighton enough space to have this conversation about her incredible life story. So if you didn't hear part one with Leighton, go ahead and listen to the previous week's episode. She has a really super interesting life story, raised in a cult, subjected to gay conversion therapy, escaped a cult with her now wife. And we were just at the point in the story where Leighton was looking for help. psychological help, and instead of getting psychological help, she was told that she's a woman trapped in, no, a man trapped in a woman's body, something like that. So where we left off last week, the therapist was referring you to a gender clinic, and you were just starting to say before we started recording, too, that you were never told that your PTSD was treatable in and of itself. So go ahead and pick up there.

Layton: Yeah, I was never told that the symptoms of the PTSD that I was experiencing were anything that I could recover from. And I was also not told that it was possible to recover from dissociation or from the splitting that I was experiencing. So the way that it was framed to me was kind of like it was just something that I had to learn how to live with, which obviously was not what I wanted to hear. And so then to be offered this kind of chance at a new life, where they're saying, you know, maybe you're actually just a man trapped in a woman's body. And maybe that's the cause of all of the pain that you've been experiencing, you know, not Not my trauma or the conversion therapy or the cult. No, nothing like that. It's definitely that I was just a man trapped in a woman's body. But I was so desperate for any identity at that point in time. I was so desperate to just know who I was and to have a different life. Like the life I was living at the time, it just was so depressing and so disconnected from community, from my family, from I mean, any normalcy whatsoever. And so I kind of saw that as something that even though it didn't really make sense to me as my full identity, I kind of saw it as, oh, well, if this is a part of me, which is the way it had been framed, and all of these other parts of me also exist, then I guess I can just step into the part of me that is the most capable or the part of me that is going to be able to live this life and do the most things. I saw it as, I guess, a way to grow into myself and kind of grow out of all of that trauma that I had been experiencing. But at the same time, there was a big disconnect because I also felt very feminine still in a lot of ways. And I had a lot of confusion around that. I had a lot of concerns about that. And the way that my therapist had brought it up to me at the time was that, you know, that was just a part of me. And instead of there being a focus on integrating these parts, which admittedly part of me was very scared to do because I I mean, I had been told that that wasn't really super possible. And then the way that it was framed to me, too, was also that a lot of people who integrate end up feeling like they lost parts of themselves. And that seemed to me, it made me feel like I was going to dissociate more. It was It was really scary to me. So I was kind of just eating up whatever I was given. And I'm like, if I'm looking at this therapist who has DID herself, and she has a business, and she's helping people, and she's doing public speaking events and podcasts, and she's on YouTube and, you know, all this stuff. So I'm thinking, well, maybe I can live a somewhat normal life too this way. And then from there, I was referred to a gender clinic. I went there. I told them everything that I had been going through. I mean, they had my therapy notes and they knew about the conversion therapy. They knew about the cult. They knew about past sexual abuse. They knew about other abuse I had experienced, like all of this stuff. And they knew about the diagnosis and eating disorders and ADHD and OCD and obviously the PTSD. None of that was. taken into consideration. I was medicated like they continue to medicate me for ADHD and depression and anxiety and all of this stuff. But I just can't believe that between the therapist and then the gender clinic where I saw multiple, not one, but multiple psychiatrists, multiple doctors, that none of them said to me, you know, if you are splitting all the time, and you don't even remember your own address, Maybe this isn't the time to be making these life-altering medical decisions. In fact, I was the one pushing back in terms of going on testosterone and stuff like that, which is unfortunately recorded in my medical records. And that's something that when I went through my own medical records, I was extremely disturbed. because I had kind of been blaming myself for a while. And then when I went back and read everything and saw all of the times that I had pushed back and all of the times that I had said, I'm unsure about this. I don't know if this is who I am. And I have this part of me that wants to do this and this other part of me that doesn't want to do this. And my concerns were completely pushed aside. I was made to feel like I didn't really have anything to be concerned about and like, This was just some a normal part of my gender journey, you know, and I could just go on testosterone and everything would be fine. And if I decided that I wasn't trans, I could stop whenever I wanted. But it was repeatedly brought up to me, repeatedly pushed on me. Yeah. So that's that's kind of how we got there.

Stephanie Winn: It's like your experience just makes me think of how how many more people there are out there who have no idea that the moment they utter the magic word, trans or gender, whatever it is, they are unknowingly sending a signal to this whole behemoth of institutions and people involved in them that is just hungry to be involved in changing this person's life in this way that they've convinced themselves is good when it's actually terribly dark and evil and destructive. I mean, you were unlucky in that the therapist that you were seeing was one of these people who clearly had some major unresolved issues that were very much interfering with her ability to provide you and God knows how many other patients the type of care that they needed. And I mean, we all have our issues as therapists, and they do get in the way of our work, but there are matters of degree. And this, this is like orders of magnitude more severe than than the risks that the average patient patient runs. So you kind of walked into this trap, you had no idea, right, that by you know, just attempting to express yourself. And, you know, those who listened to the previous episode will remember that you were saying, I feel like a trans woman in that you were trying to make an analogy. You're trying to compare your experience of awkwardness with your body and, and not just awkwardness for through body in the sense of gender dysphoria, awkwardness with being Female, given all the layers of meaning that had been attached to being a female lesbian in your life, you were saying like, I've been made to feel so awkward being me. And you were looking for help with that. But you just used the wrong word. And it just forever altered the course of your life. And I'm so terribly sorry that there are people who are just unaware of the things motivating them to look for evidence of something that's not even necessarily there. And that you didn't get the help you need. And boy, I mean, the things you say just raise so many red flags about all the things you had going on that were overlooked. And I mean, I want to say you'd be shocked, but no, you wouldn't be shocked. Some people would still be shocked, though, to learn of the amount of comorbidities or the type of comorbidities or life situations that a person can have going on. and still have someone saying, oh, yeah, this is fine. We're just going to go go ahead and rubber stamp you through the transmedical industrial complex. Like I've heard that even with schizophrenia, even with people who are actively hallucinating, that they've been told it's not contraindicated to simultaneously pursue this thing that they call transition. So, yeah, I mean, you were splitting all the time. Nobody was drawing connections between whatever it was that you had uttered that was related to the idea of trans, and everything else that you were saying. It's just the moment you say that word, you get put into the system, and it's like they're hungry for blood, it almost feels like. And it's so ironic, I'm just thinking about how like, in our first conversation, you talked about how you were told that you were a cannibal. This is the cult brainwashing telling her for those who are just hearing this for the first time that because she was a lesbian That she was cannibalizing the energy of women and it's ironic that you were made to feel that way about yourself because there's like a Cannibalism in the system that I'm picking up on the way that you were cannibalized by marking yourself unwittingly marking yourself as a target saying I'm questioning this aspect of my life and I'm vulnerable like the system cannibalized you and

Layton: Yeah, it's really disturbing, especially because You know, I look back on that time and I'm not a medical professional. And even I know that it was so wrong and so inappropriate. And it felt like waking up from a dream to kind of when I eventually kind of came out on the other side of all of this stuff. and really recovered, uh, very much from PTSD and, um, from splitting and dissociation and, and so many of these things. And then to look back, I was just horrified and confused. I just could not understand. And I'm thinking, you know, especially after going through my medical records again, It's not that they didn't know, you know, they knew they knew that I was actively suicidal. They knew that I was splitting all the time. They knew that I was extremely vulnerable. They knew that I had gone through conversion therapy, all of this stuff. And it's like, why was medical gender transition the priority? It just does not even make sense. It does not even make sense. And it honestly disturbed me greatly to come out on the other end of that. And yeah, I just. I just honestly couldn't believe it. And I couldn't believe that me just, you know, a regular person had to figure out on my own through my own research, how to recover from these things. Because instead of ever giving ever been, you know, given tools to recover from this stuff, I was just given a testosterone prescription.

Stephanie Winn: Well, it's like they see it as the root cause. And again, I'm seeing this parallel at these two different points in your story. Because when you were in the Christianity-based cult, and you were being subjected to gay conversion therapy, They were telling you that the root cause of all your problems is the sin of homosexuality, and you were being conditioned to attach everything that had ever gone wrong in your life and all of your psychological distress to that. Um, and so if that is their operating system, if that's their belief that, that all the problems in your life are being caused by this one thing, well then let's go after this one thing. Problem is there's, they're wrong, right? And then so at this later phase in your life, there's almost like an inversion or flipping of the location of the problem. Um, where now the root cause is being seen as you are a man trapped in a woman's body, you're trans, and so if we're going to help you with any of the distress, any of the problems in your life, we have to tackle that first because that's what's causing it. Again, there's actually no evidence to support that narrative. It's a belief, it's an idea, and it turns out to be an incredibly harmful one because of the implications. And I want to just take a moment to explore this a little bit more because there was something, this was percolating in my mind when you were speaking last time, that the way that you were conditioned to feel towards yourself as a young lesbian growing up in this Christian-based cult was you know, here you are a woman attracted to women. So when it comes to sexual attraction, there's, there's two people, there's, there's I and thou, right, there's the person experiencing the attraction, and there's who they're attracted to. So first, you're taught The problem is that I am attracted to the wrong sex. I'm attracted to women when I should be attracted to men. That's the problem. And then the inversion or the flipping that happens later is like the opposite, right? The problem is now, it's not that I'm attracted to the wrong person, it's that I am the wrong person. I am the wrong sex. So, it's sort of like the same thing in reverse, right? Instead of, I need to convince myself to feel things for men that I don't feel to them, and to not feel things for women that I do, now it's, I need to convince myself to become a man, that I am really a man. So, it's this flipping of the location of the problem, but in either case, it's homophobic. And it's ignoring the real root cause, which is the religious and psychological abuse and maybe some other factors in your family of origin. And I don't know what else. Maybe there were some nutritional deficiencies or God knows what. But it's all these really, really faulty hypotheses about what the nature of your problem is, and then incredibly dangerous conclusions drawn about what should be done.

Layton: Yeah, absolutely. And, and then adding that element, you know, before, before I started seeing this therapist, when I was splitting and everything, I wasn't I didn't create, you know, identities for each individual split or anything like that. And In part of her work with me, we would do like hypnosis type sessions and things where she would encourage me to dive deeper into those different parts, to ask them their names, like all of these different things. And essentially, Together, we were building names and identities and personas around these different individuals that was extremely dissociative. My dissociation episodes got a million times worse, a million times worse. I was experiencing splitting to a level that I just hadn't even experienced it when I first started seeing her. And so having that added element of dissociation from my own sexuality where it was then, okay, so now I've chosen the core persona out of all of the parts and it's this trans man. And I am now completely dissociating myself from this lesbian part that has been named and has like her own thing going on and everything. Now I can kind of just put this in a box and separate from myself in that way. And it was, I mean, the ultimate form of dissociation. I could not have dissociated further from myself. than to dissociate 100% from my biological sex and 100% from my sexuality. So it was honestly very insidious, the way that these ideas and the ideology was kind of forming this new world around me where dissociation was, instead of it being something that I was healing from, it's now the new norm. And it's now, you know, part of my gender journey and how I can create a new life for myself. And all of this was being framed as very And like I said in the last episode, I don't experience gender dysphoria at all. And so now as someone who has come out on the other end of all of these things and can't even remember exactly what it was like to be in that place because I'm not dissociated from myself in that way anymore. I just can't believe that anyone with a heart, anyone that has any understanding of trauma or neurobiology at all would be looking at me and seeing everything that I was going through outside of the fact that this is obviously another cult, right? Outside of that fact that they could, with a conscience, look at me and say, yeah, we're going to dissociate you further. That's fine. And that's going to help you. You know, it is so obvious that it was just from one cult to another. And I just had no, I had no idea.

Stephanie Winn: If you're looking for a simple way to take better care of yourself, check out Organifi. I start every day with a glass of their original green juice powder mixed with water. It contains moringa, ashwagandha, chlorella, spirulina, matcha, wheatgrass, beets, turmeric, mint, lemon, and coconut water. 100% organic with no added sugar. It's the best tasting superfood supplement I've ever tried, it's super easy to make, and it makes me feel good. Organifi also makes several other delicious and nutritious superfood blends such as red juice, immune support, protein powders, a golden milk mix, and even superfood hot cocoa. Check out the collection at Organifi.com slash Sumtherapist. That's O-R-G-A-N-I-F-I dot com slash Sumtherapist. And use code Sumtherapist to take 20% off your order. The type of treatment, I want to put treatment in air quotes here, that you were given was contraindicated for your condition. you were being encouraged to do a type of parts work that might have value for someone who doesn't have severe dissociation. Internal family systems therapy gives people, gives therapists tools for helping for lack of a better word, like normal neurotic clients identify and name parts of themselves because don't we all have parts of ourselves and aren't our lives made richer and our decision making capacities much more robust when we're able to hold an inner dialogue between conflicting parts of ourselves? Absolutely. But to take someone Because already having such problems with finding any kind of cohesive sense of self, someone who's already splitting, as you say, and I do want to invite you to define that in terms of what that means for you. But to take someone who's already having those problems and encourage them to go further into it, this is not the first story I've heard of that, you know, essentially having the opposite of a therapeutic effect. And I'm no expert in treating these sorts of conditions, but you were you were needing grounding and uniting of your parts. And instead, there's this kind of further and deeper fragmentation. And I can't help but to speculate. And of course, I do not know this person who treated you, but I can't help but to wonder if there's a sadistic element in this. I mean, We all have a shadow self. We all have parts of us that can be angry and violently inclined and vindictive. Not all of it has to rise to the level of some kind of personality pathology, like sociopathy, antisocial personality disorder. That being said, hearing the eagerness with which your therapist latched onto the idea, A, that you're like her, B, that you should want to be like her, and see that you're kind of like her pet tranny that now she she found one and she gets to, you know, feel like a special therapist. I mean, that's just what I was getting, right? Like, um, you know, and then and then to just just hearing this whole thing, like there, there is a sadistic element. And I'm not sure. And I'm thinking that, you know, speaking of disowned and dissociated parts of self, I would speculate that that's a really um, unintegrated part of herself that was acting out on you very much there.

Layton: Yeah, it was an extremely unhealthy relationship. And unfortunately, because I didn't really have a framework for that, I did not notice that for a while. There were no boundaries. We did speak frequently outside of sessions. I was invited to do stuff with her outside of sessions. Eventually- What do you mean? Uh, like go places, um, with her like restaurants or, you know, things that were extremely inappropriate. I mean, it wasn't anything, you know, romantic or weird or anything like that, but it was very inappropriate still just hanging out, you know?

Stephanie Winn: Um, and this is an element I want to highlight that, you know, I, I have a very unique worldview based on my experiences. Like, being both a therapist and a podcast host that specializes in figuring out what the fuck happened to this to this world when it comes to this gender madness. Like, I have a unique vantage point. Not everybody hears these stories. But for for longtime listeners of this podcast, you might have heard my conversation with Brian. I'm trying, I think it was called surviving gender malpractice. um kind of similar story to you like young gay man with like issues pertaining to being gay and got into drugs and then like went to see a therapist with some ulterior motives and there were a lot of boundary crossing there too and i feel like a lot of the stories i've heard from detransitioners where there was some therapist that pushed them down this path these boundary crossings are definitely a common theme And it might sound like not that big of a deal to people who aren't psychology professionals. And I have this conversation with my fiance all the time, because he's a massage therapist. So he's in a similar but different profession. And we talk about the guidelines and the boundaries. Massage therapists obviously are not allowed to have sex with their clients, just like therapists aren't allowed to have sex with their clients. As a massage therapist, we could easily have a friend over at a dinner party, and then that friend could get a massage from him as a professional client, and that would not be illegal. Whereas, in my field, professional psychotherapy specifically, Once a client, always a client. Once a friend, never a client. The boundaries are just a lot stricter. So if you're not familiar with those professional boundaries, it might not sound like such a big deal for a therapist and client to go out to dinner together. But in my field, those are huge, glaring red flags. You do not do that. Once a client, always a client. There are boundaries for a reason. So I do just want to highlight that even though it wasn't sexual between you, there's definitely just a lot wrong with this picture.

Layton: Oh, yeah. And I mean, I'm not a therapist. I am a somatic practitioner, and I would never cross boundaries like that. Even with the people that I mentor, I mentor a lot of other detransitioners, too, and I would never cross boundaries like that. And so it does make you wonder. what was going through someone's mind where there was this selfishness where they couldn't help but to do that. You know, it's like because I care about the people that I work with, even if I'm just mentoring the transitioners, I am completely prioritizing them and their journey and everything that they're going through and trying to guide them through that. And I don't cross certain boundaries because it's about them and their healing. And, you know, it's it's not about me and It's, um, yeah, it's, it's hard to look back on that and see it as, as something where this person was just completely unaware of her own actions. I did believe that for a while, because I am assuming there was some sort of Stockholm syndrome element there, especially because she would say things like, you know, you're like my family, and we have a spiritual connection and, and all of this stuff that That would make me feel that way, too. And then it escalated. And I've shared this on Twitter before, too, where it escalated to me recruiting people for her and essentially working for her without payment or and I was told to manifest my paycheck. Whoa. Yeah, so it escalated really far. So this is just the level, the level to which I was, I was seeing her multiple times a week and totally invested in all of this stuff. And I do think that there was a level to where she did care about me, but I think that she cared about herself a lot and the things she wanted to do and was very traumatized and should not have been working, should not have been in that kind of position, in my opinion.

Stephanie Winn: It was just a complete and utter failure to manage her countertransference, to put it in clinical terms, you know, countertransference being the therapist's feelings toward the client. And I was just having a conversation about countertransference on my lunch break. I mean, she saw things in you and felt things from you or felt things around you that she just was not at all circumspect about, did not learn from in terms of how can I reflect on what this patient is evoking in me in a way that helps me improve my skills as a therapist and improve my understanding of this patient, what she's been through, what she feels, what she needs. I mean, it seems like if I had to speculate what she was experiencing in you, you were somebody very open and vulnerable and kind of lost and confused. And that left a lot of room for her to project her own image into you to see parts of you that were actually there that she saw in herself, there was some maybe accuracy in some of the reflections. But then there's also just the fact that you're like, prey. You you were like, I mean, that's that's like a theme that's coming through this whole story is just the vulnerability and the kind of target on your back. And so she didn't check her own sadistic impulses, her own capacity for manipulation and harm, to see what gets evoked in me when I'm sitting with someone who's extremely vulnerable and lost and doesn't trust herself and is looking to me for guidance and I'm the authority. And what do I do with that power? Instead, she just kind of it seems like got power hungry and like, saw an opportunity here for her to feel important. That's what I'm getting. I mean, it's all just speculation, but.

Layton: Yeah. I think that, yeah, when you say that, it really resonates because there was also an element where it kind of reminds me of what we were talking about, um, in the last episode, how, um, in the cult, they were trying to say that I was this like success story and use me and all this stuff. And, and she would say to me that I was so intelligent and such an inspiration. Um, and it, she would say things like, you're so, um, uh, self-aware and, um, emotionally mature and intelligent. And it's not that those things were necessarily wrong, but it felt like Instead of what I needed, which I needed someone to be a mirror to me, I needed someone to say like, hey, you have some blind spots here. Have you considered that what you may be feeling is because of all of this stuff? It was like she was just validating me and flattering me and trying to build me up in all these ways. And I kind of felt like Oh, I finally have someone who believes in me. I finally have someone who who's in my corner and who wants me to succeed. And so I saw it as, oh, she wants me to recruit people for her because she wants me to eventually work with her, which was what we had discussed. And I just had that naivety and honestly emotional immaturity because I hadn't had those healthy relationships with people, so I wasn't able to see that I was being used. and that I was essentially being groomed for working. And I'm not saying that that was her intention or anything. I want to be clear about that because I honestly don't know. I can't say what anyone's intention was. I can only say what I experienced and what happened to me. And yeah, so I just, I really trusted her judgment and I, believed everything that everyone told me. I didn't question it because when I tried to push back, like I said, I was told that, um, it wasn't a big deal and we can go forward with this anyway. And worst case scenario, you just decide that you don't want to do it and then we can stop. And so, yeah, it definitely sounds like grooming.

Stephanie Winn: I mean, you're so mature. thing. Like, that was used on me when I was literally groomed. And that that has been used on so many young women. And, and it's okay, what let's call it what it is, it's flattery. It's taking someone who might come across like a little bit of an orphan, like, you know, that's, that's the energy that, you know, that energy. Yeah, I mean, when you have that orphan energy, when you're walking around like a vulnerable young person who clearly has had some gaps in your upbringing. And, you know, there are people who just they can sniff that out. And they're like, oh, I know what's going to hook her in. I'm going to tell her she's so mature. She's so self-aware. And really what it is is it's appealing to that part of you that's longing for recognition and admiration and to be special in the eyes of your parent, which might have been an unmet need during a certain part of childhood. And it's also particularly sneaky because what these people are counting on is actually they're counting on ways in which you're not mature. to work for them. Um, you know, you're lacking the maturity to have strong boundaries, strong sense of self to have a sense of when people are trying to pull one over on you. Um, those are all ways in which you're not yet mature and they're very grateful that you're not yet mature because they wouldn't be able to get away with it if you were. So it's, um, yeah, it's, it's incredibly sneaky and it's clear that she was using you to make herself feel special. And I hear you trying to give her the benefit of the doubt even after all this, but that she went on to, um, get you to work for her. I mean, just so we're clear, just so everyone listening is clear. In therapy grad school, we go through training where people drill ethics into us. Like my ethics teacher, um, And she put the fear of God in us, I swear. She was constantly lecturing us about all the ways things could go wrong if you do not abide by the ethical guidelines. So I mean, maybe not everybody had the same teacher as me, but it's really hard for me to imagine someone making it through grad school and through their training and not having a very clear sense of what the rules are. And so when someone has been through all of that, and then they still have a patient as vulnerable as you were as a young woman, and act that way, I have a very short leash for these people.

Layton: Yeah. And I, you know, what's interesting is that this is another thing that is in common with the cult that I grew up in is the lack of boundaries. And I feel like especially when in terms of her being a therapist that she was very much into like the new age and stuff like that. And then also, obviously, the trans ideology. And it was almost like there's this belief that certain boundaries shouldn't exist because they're harmful or you know what I mean and we see that a lot in the gender ideology too where now we are crossing boundaries that should never be crossed and we're telling children that it's okay to transition and not to tell their parents that they don't have to tell their parents what's going on. Things that in any other context you know 10 years ago people would have and therapists would have gone to jail for even suggesting these things. But it's like with gender ideology, there's suddenly an exception. And we're being told it's okay to hide things from your parents and it's okay to have these medical procedures or whatever it is without them knowing because this is a special exception. And it's just disturbing, honestly.

Stephanie Winn: Okay, so your therapist flatters you, pushes the boundaries, starts taking you out to dinner. eventually gets you to work for her? When you say recruiting, what was your job?

Layton: So basically I was in like trans Facebook groups and stuff like that and they were also a lot of the people in the trans Facebook groups were dealing with dissociation and stuff like that. I also had a roommate at the time who was a trans man and we had met online, I think probably in a trans group, long before I transitioned or anything like that. And then I had some other friends that ended up also going to see her. So, yeah, I mean, I was like her number one supporter because I had very black and white thinking back then. I didn't really I didn't really have a strong sense of self, obviously. And I was operating because I was operating out of survival mode. I was also operating out of all of these cognitive distortions. So I didn't really see any flaws with her. And I hear.

Stephanie Winn: I'm so sorry, but your job was to go into these Facebook groups where there were vulnerable people posting, trying to get help from each other.

Layton: Yeah, it sounds so bad when you say it like that.

Stephanie Winn: Yeah, well, it is bad. And to get them to go see her was that the job?

Layton: Essentially. And I mean, the way that it was framed was that these are like the specific kinds of people that she really wanted to help. And I was thinking, she's really helped me, which is crazy to think that because when I look back, I don't see myself being helped at all. I was getting worse and worse and worse. But I had this faux sense of family. I had this faux sense of connection that was overriding all of these symptoms. And there was also kind of this element of it gets worse before it gets better. And you're experiencing these things because you're pushing yourself to the limit, trying to heal. So that was one element of it. I also ran her Twitter page and possibly also Instagram. And my wife was also doing paperwork for her.

Stephanie Winn: So it was paperwork. Yeah. What kind of paperwork?

Layton: uh typing up um oh my gosh what's the like typing up forms for clients to fill out um like consent forms and things like that wow this is just covered in red like i've lost track of how many red flags we've

Stephanie Winn: We've talked about I mean, so you're, you're essentially like recruiting new patients managing her social media, all of this while you are a patient, and she gets your wife working for her. Damn. Wow. Okay. So how long did this go on for?

Layton: Oh my gosh. I don't want to give a wrong time frame. I do have all of this stuff written down. It has to be written down, obviously. But for me, the time frame is kind of muddy because I was extremely dissociated during that whole time. So under a year, I would say, because then one day she basically said that she wasn't going to do therapy for a while. And yeah, it was really weird. She had me come over for like a Christmas thing and kind of said, yeah, like I can't, I'm not going to be a therapist anymore for the time. Yeah, for the time being. Totally left hanging. I didn't know what to do after that, but I believe at the time I was already on testosterone and everything, if I'm remembering correctly.

Stephanie Winn: And she had referred you to the clinic where they prescribed that? Yes.

Layton: Yeah. So from there, I was just my, my number one coping skill was passing as a male, um, attempting to pass as male. And I pretty much revolved or like revolved my entire life around being a male. And that was, That was my escape from my trauma. I didn't really have any other support or anything at that point in time other than people in trans Facebook groups and stuff like that. So that was my priority.

Stephanie Winn: What was your relationship with your wife like during that?

Layton: I was tumultuous. I mean, she she loved me and accepted me no matter what. But it was obviously really difficult for her. And I was having a lot of like mood swings and stuff in the in the beginning on the testosterone and there was a period of time where I just felt totally blissed out on it a few months in because I have a lot of histamine issues and estrogen activity makes histamine issues worse and testosterone actually kind of suppresses that histamine response, which I didn't know at the time. So I was like, Oh, it's working. It's the gender euphoria. When in reality, it was just suppressing my histamine. So I wasn't having those same reactions that I was used to. Yeah, so I thought I was having the gender euphoria for a little bit. And, and then, and then that testosterone is it does have an impact on mood. Oh, yeah, for sure. So it was hard. I think that I didn't really know how to act in our relationship. I feel like in a lot of ways, I was kind of taking on this persona because I didn't have a personality at that point. I didn't have I was completely detached from anything that made me, me. And I kind of felt like I had to be this person that was like really tough and, um, emotionally detached. And I don't know, it, it just, I was really disconnected for myself at the time. And that definitely impacted things with my wife, for sure. So basically, I was on testosterone for quite a while. I was on testosterone for around three years total, over three years. And I had some breaks in between due to moving or changing providers or something like that. But I, the entire time, had still been feeling this connection to femininity, this connection to wanting to be a female. And this is also recorded in my medical notes. They're literally writing down, he's showing up looking female, dressing female. And so I was kind of going back and forth in this thing of passing as male to some regard, but I also had this part of me that was still very connected to my womanhood. And so in my mind, I was kind of justifying it by saying, well, like men can be feminine and And men can, you know, do this and all this stuff because I didn't know how to accept at that point in time that I wasn't a man, especially because I was nowhere near healed or recovered by any means. So essentially, Um, I ended up having a bunch of little things that kind of led up to me questioning if I had made the right decision. One of those things being, um, my aunt had said to me, you know, you were in a cult and you're a lesbian and you went through conversion therapy. Maybe that played a part. Like, have you ever thought about that? that wasn't the deciding factor by any means. I actually still didn't detransition for quite a while after that, but it led me down the path of watching detransitioners and trying to, um, just trying to see how I felt with different things. And, and I was really just, yeah, trying to find myself. And, um, I remember asking my brother, you know, do you see me as a lesbian or as a man? And he was like, I love you so much. But honestly, I just he's like, I feel like you're a lesbian. Like, like you have all this stuff leading up to it. And so I kind of I was still looking for that mirroring in a way because I still didn't trust myself. But I knew deep down that I wasn't being myself. I knew there was a massive disconnect and I didn't feel connected to who I was at all. And then eventually I got into I started seeing a somatic therapist and got into somatic therapy. and nervous system regulation and changed my diet and all this stuff. And I was treating my PTSD in a way that had never been treated before. So a lot of my symptoms were just going away. And I started realizing I didn't have gender dysphoria. And that was really crazy to reconcile with. So the more that I healed, the less I was dissociating, the more I was coming back into my body. I couldn't even resonate with the person that I used to be. And it became very difficult to continue being that person and maintaining being that person. So then I thought, well, maybe I'm non-binary. And I just, I went through all this stuff because I was clinging to this ideology that I had revolved my entire identity around for so long. And it was really confusing for me in a really difficult time. So yeah, there were a lot of things that were leading up to it and a lot of things that impacted that decision. But really, it wasn't until I had started to recover from my PTSD, and actually regulate my nervous system for the first time in my entire life, that all of these things started changing within me and all these things started coming into place. And I realized that my entire identity prior to that moment, prior to that time of my life was just survival mode. All of it was survival mode and none of it was me. And that was really scary because then I had to figure out who I was, but I also had this really powerful moment of reconciling with being a woman and realizing that I didn't have a problem with being a woman. And I actually wanted to be a woman. And I loved being a woman because I finally had this connection to my body that I had never had before because I was always so dissociated. And I, you know, unless I'm experiencing anaphylaxis from like an allergic reaction or something now, I just don't dissociate. And I fully attribute that to the nervous system work and the diet and somatic exercises because that really changed my life. And It's not that it wasn't beneficial to me in any way, it's just that what I really needed was that body-based therapy and I didn't even know that was an option. I didn't even know it existed, you know?

Stephanie Winn: I recently told you about a group called Do No Harm, who's working to do just that. Eliminate the harm that so-called gender-affirming care for minors and political ideologies in medicine are causing. Do No Harm is made up of thousands of members across the country, from doctors to nurses to policymakers to concerned parents who see what's happening at practitioners around the country and are waving a red flag. Membership is free, and you get unlimited access to information from experts, on-the-ground updates from people working in medicine or state houses to take a stand, and collaboration with other thinkers. Learn more and sign up at do-no-harm-medicine.org slash Some Therapist to learn more. That's do-no-harm-medicine.org slash Some Therapist. So now that we've kind of come full circle to this point in your journey where you started to find what would actually help you come into your body and have an integrated sense of self, looking back from this healthier place, what do you know now? What do you understand about what it was for you to be dissociating and splitting? What was that experience like?

Layton: Yeah. So, um, like I had said before, I had no understanding of having a core self. Um, I didn't know myself at all. If someone had asked me who I was or what my values were or anything, I just didn't know. And I think as far as the splitting goes, um, It kind of felt like I was a different person every day, but all of those aspects were still a part of me. But it's like there was this massive disconnect there where I just didn't know which one was the real me, which was very confusing. And that could look like things that were a lot smaller, such as feeling like I knew where I wanted to live, but one part of me wanted to live somewhere and then the next day I want to live somewhere totally different. Or it could also be things that were a lot bigger, such as having massive crises around my gender or religion or, you know, things that that really can make up part of how we identify and how we see ourselves, how we interact with the world. A large part of that also was the memory loss that I was experiencing that made it really difficult for me to maintain my relationships. maintain a job, maintain any semblance of a future for myself. I felt like I didn't have a purpose outside of just trying not to dissociate, basically. Every day for me felt like nothing was real. And it also felt like I wasn't real. I felt like a robot a lot of the time. And when I would be speaking, I felt so disconnected from my own voice. It was like listening to a robot's voice. I don't even know if that makes sense. But it was honestly an extremely disturbing experience. It was something that brought me a lot of fear and anxiety. And yeah, it was impossible to live that way. And I don't remember the first half of your question.

Stephanie Winn: Oh, well, I think I think you've answered it just about what it was like to be dissociating and splitting. And I'm hearing that lack of integration. I mean, we all, again, have different parts of us that might have different opinions about things like, you know, what do I believe about the nature of God? Or where do I see myself living in 10 years? But I'm hearing that you would wake up one day like having the experience of only that part of yourself and none of the other parts are there. So there's fragmentation, the sort of, um, and then you wake up the next day and you're experiencing the other side and you can't again, have that dialogue between these parts. That's like, well, part of me is drawn to the warmth of a sunnier climate, but I'm drawn to the culture of this other place. And none of that just sort of, it just feels really disorienting. I think like, The things that you were talking about were giving me a sense of these are the things that orient us, that locate us in time and place. And that's part of what identity is. It's where am I on the social map? Where do I stand in relationship to other people? It sounds like you weren't really on the map. You're more like in the clouds above the landscape.

Layton: Yeah, 100% and there were a lot of somatic sensations that went along with that. Sometimes I would be having a conversation with someone and I would just start to feel really unsafe and I would kind of lose access to my hearing where it's like I would feel like I was in a tunnel. The sound would start to sound very far away, or my vision would kind of go into tunnel vision. I would become extremely dizzy. I would get very overheated. Really intense and terrifying somatic sensations would kind of lead up to these splits. And that was very scary. It was completely debilitating and made it very… Did you ever faint?

Stephanie Winn: Sorry to interrupt, but did you ever faint?

Layton: A few times, yes. It was extremely intense and scary.

Stephanie Winn: Did you measure your blood pressure?

Layton: Mm-mm.

Stephanie Winn: Because, I mean, obviously you're having a very unique experience and all the, you know, trademarks of dissociation are there, but I'm just comparing it to my experience because I have a condition that causes low blood pressure. And, you know, some of it sounds like what we call pre-syncope, which is like state before you faint so I literally wonder physically if you were having low blood pressure or low blood sugar or what was going on in terms of things that could actually be measured in your body that might have been contributing to whether it's you know cause or effect is hard to say but that might have been kind of part of the picture of what was going on physiologically and you did say that testosterone mess with your endocrine system with which mess with your nervous system so maybe we can kind of take a bridge here into what your healing process has been like, what you've learned about your body, and what you found helpful.

Layton: Yeah, I kind of started with the somatic work. I started with very gentle inner child work. And I was very scared to do this at first because I associated it with parts work, which was obviously highly traumatic for me, especially because we were doing parts work in a hypnosis type environment that was triggering that dissociation. But instead, I kind of externalized the inner child work and I wasn't necessarily speaking inwardly to myself. Instead, I was imagining that my nervous system was my inner child. And this is something I still do to this day and I find very helpful. I was basically seeing my nervous system as my inner child and I was speaking out loud to my nervous system in the way that I would speak to anyone else's child that was distressed or overwhelmed or scared or whatever it was. And started just speaking things over myself that were very calming and, you know, doing like self-havening and and hugging myself and doing that somatic self-touch, like stroking my arms and touching my hands and doing everything I could to ground myself into the physical body. Because up until that point, I had heard that grounding exercises were going for a walk or touching something warm or Things like that, that can definitely be helpful for some people. Or I was told, look around the room and find five things that you can see, five things you can hear, things like that. But I really needed to kind of take it to the next level and be physically interacting with my own body and my own nervous system. That's what was really helpful for me. So EFT was also really helpful for me at the time. And working on nervous system regulation was just imperative. I cut out caffeine. I limited my sugar severely. Basically, because of the histamine issues that I also have, I went on a strictly low histamine diet and just did absolutely everything that I could to try and balance myself physically and be very good to my body because I realized that my body had undergone a trauma and that testosterone, synthetic testosterone to a female body is a trauma. It is a traumatic event to the endocrine system. traumatic event to the nervous system. And it made me very, it made me very sad. I did this subcutaneous injections, which was in the stomach fat of either side of my belly button. And I had these hard nodules that had formed in my stomach at the time from how many times I had injected myself with testosterone. And in the beginning, I remember just kind of gently massaging those with oil and just sobbing because I was like, oh my goodness, how could I do this to myself? How could I do this to my body? How was I ever so dissociated that I thought that this was the answer? So I was trying to be very compassionate with myself. But for the first time, I was letting myself feel everything. And a huge part of that is also that I came off of all of my medications, which I mean, at that point, I did not trust doctors because of everything I had gone through. And I didn't know what was going on with me. I didn't know what I actually had. I didn't know if any of the things I had been diagnosed with were real or if it had all been PTSD. And I felt like I needed to know that. And to this day, I'm still not on medication. And this is the best that I've ever been. And so I fully believe that there were physiological things that were causing that, such as gut dysbiosis. And I think I had a lot of imbalances in my body that were that were causing certain uh, symptoms around anxiety and OCD and whatnot. And then I, I'm pretty positive. The rest was PTSD, um, because I've been off of medication for years now and I've never been more stable and level. I always thought that I was someone that had mood swings. I don't even have mood swings anymore, you know, it's, um, and so it's, it's really fascinating to see how even like what you were saying about the blood pressure, there are so often these physiological reasons behind what we are experiencing cognitively and yet so often those aren't explored. So all of that stuff has really kept me in a state of healing. And to this day, I won't really experience very much anxiety unless I have sugar or you know, something that I know is going to be kind of dysregulating to my nervous system. And then I think, man, I lived like that all the time. And all I had to do was these things and it would have helped so much. So Yeah, that stuff has really helped me a lot. And then also having a spiritual practice that is not a cult, you know, that has also been very beneficial for me.

Stephanie Winn: I feel like this whole conversation leading up to this point where you started to talk about your healing, there was like a call calling out for help. this sense of this vulnerable person kind of out in the void, out in the open, vulnerable, exposed, clearly needing something. And then when we turned the corner and started talking about your healing, there came the response. There came a response from you to that call for help. You stepped in and gave yourself that nurturance and containment and mirroring and holding that you'd been needing the whole time, and you contained yourself, you were no longer vulnerable, exposed with a target on your back, you like, took your took, took in that little orphan child, and wrapped a blanket around her. And so that was seemed like the moment in your life where you discovered that you actually had the power within you to give yourself the thing that you'd been missing all along?

Layton: Oh, yeah. It was really powerful, too. It actually felt almost like a spiritual experience to connect with myself in that way when I had never experienced that before. And I noticed that all of the times I had actually been seeking safety, in other people. I'm pretty sure you had said previously, either in this episode or the last one about how I was seeking safety in the world, but didn't have safety within myself. And this really mirrored that where for the first time I was understanding what it meant to find safety within myself. And to trust myself, I was building this relationship with myself and this relationship with my nervous system, building resilience within my nervous system, building this relationship with my inner child. And I felt like in that I was accessing. parts of myself in a non dissociated way, you know, that that I could rely on that I could trust that I could build my life around. And in a way, it was almost like a soul retrieval, where I finally felt safe to kind of call different parts back to myself. Because when I was splitting, I would very obviously split at sometimes into a very Child, like, regressive state and then in other times it was like the complete fight or flight state where I was just like, angry and ready to defend myself, not even in a way of. of being argumentative or causing fights or anything like that. I just was, I was waiting for some sort of trauma to happen and I was completely armored and ready for it. And I was detached from any sense of safety in my body. So I was so used to fluctuating between these states of pure detachment and trauma and survival mode. And then to then um start showing love to those states and um and reducing the shaming and um and also reframing my my own mindset around it and i stopped using language like splitting i stopped using language like alters um i stopped using language like did all of that stuff and instead when i would start to feel the somatic sensation of any of those things i would go within and try and assess what it was that was making me not feel safe and figure out how I could meet that need for safety within myself, which was really difficult to do. And I was just like, how did no one ever tell me that I could do this?

Stephanie Winn: I'm so glad that you finally found help and healing and found the thing that you were looking for in yourself. Now, you mentioned histamine. I'm part of the unfortunately, the long COVID community. And there are certain types of long COVID that respond better than others to like a low histamine diet because histamine can play varying roles depending on sort of the profile of the conditions that someone has. So one thing I do know about low histamine diet is it's like the most random foods are off the table. Like, like, it's, you know, it's not just as simple as like, if you eat you know, clean or just eat lots of produce. It's like, no, there's certain things you can't eat in terms of fruits and vegetables. Seems pretty demanding. So how did you identify that histamine was playing a role in your issues? And what's sort of the typical profile of someone dealing with a histamine component to their illness?

Layton: I was experiencing a lot of allergic responses and it was extremely confusing because I would go get allergy tests done. They would say that I was allergic to things that I didn't seem to. respond or react to. And then they would say that I wasn't allergic to things that I very obviously would have an anaphylactic response to. And it was really confusing. So they gave me a bunch of EpiPens and they had me coming in and they were essentially, I was getting Well, I would say weekly injections, but it wasn't just once a week. It was multiple times a week injections with kind of a microdose of a bunch of different things that I was allergic to. And that was supposed to build up my tolerance. Instead, it made me a lot worse, a lot worse. And so I was like, I'm not doing this anymore. And the allergist I was seeing at the time didn't really know how to help me and said that it could be a few different things. And then basically I met someone who has the same kind of thing going on that I have. And she was like, have you ever considered that it might be this, like we have a lot of the same symptoms. And I was like, No, I don't even know. I didn't really know anything about histamine intolerance. But I had tried so many different things at that point and was on a bunch of antihistamines. And so I was like, I'll just give it a try. It can't hurt to try a low histamine diet with everything else I had tried at that point. So essentially, I started slowly going low histamine. And then when I would try and introduce a high histamine food back into my diet, I would immediately have a response. And I was kind of able to figure out, once I started to understand more about which foods were high histamine and which foods were low histamine, because There's so much information around it. And some foods are low histamine, but then they're histamine liberators. And I just didn't know any of that stuff at first. And so I started making the connection and I was like, oh my gosh, she's right. All of these things are high in histamine that I'm reacting to. And then from there, I went to the doctor and was explaining to them what I was experiencing with that. I was put on mast cell stabilizers, H2 blockers, antihistamines. So yeah, that's kind of how I figured that out, which I feel like that's the case for a lot of people with histamine intolerance. It's just not like any other kind of allergic reaction. It's really difficult to pinpoint and figure out what it is exactly that you are experiencing. So as for my symptoms and the things I was regularly experiencing, if I had something like peanut butter, super high histamine, or tomatoes, ketchup, tomato sauce, anything really high histamine like that, I would start to get extremely sleepy. I would get hives. Sometimes the backs of my hands would become extremely red, which ironically actually also happened to me the first time that I had COVID. And while I had long COVID, I was getting these crazy rashes, which I'm pretty sure was part of the first wave. I'm pretty sure that was one of like the weird symptoms of the first wave that seemed to kind of go away with time. And I would experience throat soreness and like sinus issues, and eventually it kind of escalated to anaphylactic symptoms like throat closing and disorientation, difficulty breathing, lungs closing, and yeah. I have unfortunately had anaphylaxis more times than I can count and it's not fun. It's very scary, especially if you're alone and you have to use an EpiPen or something like that. And it's not even just to foods, but a lot of people that have histamine intolerance are also very intolerant to chemicals and can't use you know, shampoos or conditioners or toothpaste or these things that have fragrances or a lot of added things. So yeah, I'm very restricted in that sense. I'm pretty used to it. it at this point. So I mean, I would take this any day, I would take the restriction any day over the symptoms. But it is very difficult at first. And it's honestly hard, because in a way, it makes you feel very isolated from the world, especially around holidays and stuff. And you can't partake in the same things as other people. But it It's made my quality of life better in other ways when I can avoid certain things, but it's also very difficult to avoid because there's a lot of food that has very high histamine things in it. And unless you are cooking every single meal fresh every single day, which is not always possible, especially if you're traveling or something like that, it's easy to be exposed to things quite frequently.

Stephanie Winn: Well, thank you for breaking all of that down and just how severe it can get. I'm not sure how much of what you described is the mast cell activation syndrome, but I know that's one of the long COVID profiles. And I think I have, honestly, a little bit of that going on, but it's not the predominant. I don't have hives or anaphylaxis or anything like that. But I'm glad that you found something that helps you. And so did those issues start while you were on testosterone or before then?

Layton: So I had a handful of allergies before testosterone, mostly to things that were high in salicylates though, not necessarily histamine. For example, cinnamon or cantaloupe, melons, things like that. So it was kind of different. But while I was on testosterone, I was also and actually right before I went on to testosterone, I was unknowingly living in an environment that was completely overrun with black mold. It was in the ceilings and we didn't know. I mean, we had no way of knowing because it wasn't visible. And so while I was living there, I had started having symptoms, especially psychological symptoms. And also, I mean, things like weird rashes. And I was sick a lot, like constantly, to the point where I was basically bedridden a lot of the time. And my immune system was very low. I would get viruses so many times in the year pretty much every other month I would have bronchitis for months and then it would immediately transition into pneumonia and so my immune system was really taking a hit. So I think it was the combination of that and then also going on testosterone because there was an element of it that was already existent but not so much with With the food as much, it was more so environmental at first. I'm sure it was happening a little bit with the food, but not enough to where it was anything that I would have noticed. I wasn't eating something and immediately realizing there was an issue. The symptoms were a lot less severe. And yeah, so it wasn't until I went on testosterone that I, like I said, at first it started suppressing some of those things. So I wasn't sick as much anymore. I had more energy and I wasn't bedridden. I was going out and doing things and I felt amazing at first. And then the testosterone really started to take a toll on me. And I was also on birth control at first and I had never been on birth control in my life. It's like mixing uppers and downers. I know I got the depo shot and it was horrible. I just had the worst side effects. It was absolutely terrible. And that combination really took a toll on my body. So after a few months, everything started to go downhill again. And my endocrine system had taken such a hit that by the time that I D transitioned, it was literally when I was withdrawing from testosterone and everything. My endocrine system was just so messed up. I had severe symptoms of PMDD, symptoms that I had never had to that extent ever before being on testosterone. And then I started having all of these physical symptoms that were so much worse, specifically around allergies and everything. Yeah, and because of the connection between estrogen and histamine and me now having estrogen sensitivity, while also having these estrogen spikes throughout my cycle, it was really complicating things. And it was very clear that the connection between going on testosterone and then coming off the testosterone and how my endocrine system was attempting to balance itself, it's like everything was just complete chaos and totally out of whack and my histamine receptors have never recovered, you know?

Stephanie Winn: It sounds like you've made a lot of progress in your healing. I mean, it sounds like you've done a lot of your own research. Have you found good medical providers?

Layton: Yes and no. I love the physical therapy office that I go to. They're incredible. I love everyone there. And I do have a really great doctor, but it's been pretty impossible to find an allergist that knows how to handle histamine issues without just slapping an antihistamine on it. And eventually I began to develop an allergy to antihistamines, ironically, so I can't take those anymore. I can only take H2 blockers and mast cell stabilizers and also EpiPens, but I can only use one kind of inhaler and EpiPen and that's just straight up epinephrine for an inhaler and EpiPen. I can't use any other inhaler because I have allergic reactions to that and I can't take most supplements because of my allergies. So It's just been really difficult to find providers that are knowledgeable in that specific area that also live in my vicinity. There just aren't very many, unless you go outside of insurance completely, and that adds up really quickly.

Stephanie Winn: Oh, don't I know it. I feel like I'm spending all my money on health care right now just trying to get well. I love sleep. Sound sleep is a crucial foundation of good mental and physical health, from mood and concentration to metabolism and cellular repair. And I sleep very well thanks to my Eight Sleep Pod Pro Cover. My side of the bed is programmed to be warm when I get in and cool down to a neutral temperature in the middle of the night so I don't wake up overheated like I used to. How would you customize your bed temperature? Visit 8sleep.com and use promo code SUMTHERAPIST to take up to $200 off your purchase. Even if they're already running another sale, this code will get you an additional $50 off. 8 Sleep currently ships not only within the USA, but also to Canada, the UK, select countries in the European Union, and Australia. Thanks for considering purchases that support the show. You know, maybe this is a good time to go to our locals' questions. We have a question from Free to Disbelieve. I often hear the term, quote-unquote, unconditional love among non-binary people. I wonder how she feels, how you feel, about this term now and what it means to her now.

Layton: Yeah, that's a good question. I think that it's really important that we don't look at something like unconditional love and apply that as unconditional acceptance for something as truth or reality, because you can love someone and love them for whoever they are without validating something that is an untruth. Because that's not love, you know. So in reality, unconditional love would mean that if it's true unconditional love, you would be unconditionally loving someone according to reality. And if it was true unconditional love, Um, then that love would be, you know, beyond ideology and beyond all of the things that that come with it. And it would really boil down to truth. So I think that it's important that we don't take labels like that and see unconditional love as something that lacks boundaries and is outside of reality and lacks truth. Because that's something that I've actually thought about a lot in the past and how you can love someone unconditionally without validating things that are obviously harmful for them and and without having no boundaries. I think that there's this idea that unconditional love means that you just have to take and accept everything and there's no boundaries in that. And I think that that's really harmful. I kind of just see unconditional love as a love where we put our own self aside and our own ideas aside. For example, I can love someone unconditionally even if they have a completely different ideology as me, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to then validate that ideology because I don't see that as something that's loving.

Stephanie Winn: I think that's very well said. I wonder too, you know, in terms of where this person is coming from with this question, I wonder if it's partly a generational issue, because I don't know that I've particularly heard a strong emphasis on this concept of unconditional love specifically coming from people who identify as non-binary. But I do know I hear it a lot in the younger generation. Um, and you know, I'm a few years older than you. You're a few years older than the people I'm thinking of right now. I'm thinking of like people in their twenties. Um, cause, uh, my, my guilty pleasure is like binge watching dating and marriage reality TV. Um, and, uh, my fiance and I have a funny relationship around it because, um, early in our relationship, he would tease me for watching it. And, um, And then he would want to, like, catch parts of it here or there. And then it got to the point where we're full on watching these shows together and, you know, pausing to judge people and talk about what they're doing wrong in their relationships. I'm being kind of cheeky about it. But, you know, it gives a lot a lot of room to comment on people's relationship dysfunction. And we've had this conversation several times, actually, where he's noticed um these people on these dating and marriage reality tv shows talking about unconditional love and um and it's funny because he's a very loving guy like he's pretty pretty good in the unconditional love department but i hear him say things like you know, that there's not really any such thing as unconditional love, like, you know, when you're, let's say, you're marrying someone based on certain conditions. And if they were to violate those conditions, if they were to stop loving you, if they were to stop being loyal to you, or treating you with respect, then you would have to draw boundaries around your love. So I think it's kind of like a generational thing. And I think it also comes with this kind of like, blind spot that we see in some of the young people and some of the people who are still identifying as trans and non-binary around like um I mean maybe really what it is is like a projection of a longing of a certain parental figure this um you know and it reminds me of what your former therapist tapped into when she would idealize you and make statements about how wonderful you were like we all have, you know, that inner child longs for our parents to look at us with that glow in their eyes. And we do receive a certain unconditional love, ideally, from parents as we're growing up. Even if they're very imperfect parents, most parents still have a whole heck of a lot of love for their children. And it's a love that's tolerant of your mistakes and your learning process and your growth process. So I wonder if it's almost kind of like a regressive thing in the culture, that there's a lot of people kind of walking around with this kind of orphan syndrome We could speculate. We could go down the, like, you know, Mary Harrington path and talk about, like, how mothers being separated from their children because of the workforce and the financial pressures put on women and families has, like, created a bunch of people walking around with this kind of hole in their heart because they didn't get enough mothering. Like, we could talk about all of that. We could speculate. But I do think that some of that might be where it's coming from, right? fragmented world where people aren't getting enough love from their parents, not spending enough time with their families when they're really little and really need that well to be filled. And then they're going around with this sort of hole inside of them and then creating these unrealistic expectations of their romantic part, not only romantic partners. I mean, that's one thing. And that's, you know, something that couples counseling can maybe help with or attachment based therapy can help with. Really, I think the problem that some of us cultural critics have is like going around with those expectations of everyone, of, you know, the culture, their employers, their friends, their partners, their, you know, just you name it. And the blind spot is recognizing that other people are human beings too, right? That you can't just expect other people to be these godlike figures that are fully capable of giving you 100% of their attention with no needs of their own, right? The blind spot is like, we're all just doing our best here. And you want to use your ADHD or your autism or whatever you've diagnosed yourself with based on TikTok as your like, excuse to, you know, be late to work or whatever and expect accommodations and you know, get in the missing side of the picture is like, your boss is also having a human experience of like having a job that needs to get done and customers waiting for orders to be filled or whatever. So that's my tangent. It's my tangent on unconditional love, my little soapbox. But I'm thinking about what we haven't covered. We asked the locals question. I know you've alluded to your spirituality. I don't think we have time for a lot of discussion on that. I know you need to get going. But it seems like you've found a place that you're happy with, with regard to the role that spirituality plays in your life now.

Layton: Yeah, I consider myself an esoteric Christian or an anthroposophical Christian, and it's really Christianity outside of dogma. It's just Christian mysticism and diving into the Christian mysteries, which looks very different than the Christianity that you see, you know, publicly and in churches and stuff like that. It's a very different experience. And it's one that has brought me a lot of joy because there were elements to how I grew up and what I believed growing up that were very important to me. But then I also believed in things like reincarnation. And I had a lot of psychic experiences from a very young age. And, um, that was really fascinating to me. And, and I wanted to know more about that, but, but these things in particular, they were very demonized with how I was growing up. And, um, when I found specifically anthroposophy, it's basically just, um, Rudolf Steiner's understanding spirituality as a science. It's not a religion or anything like that. It's closer to a philosophy. And it really tied together a lot of things. And anthroposophy is also, he pulled a lot from theosophists and classical occult literature. So it's kind of this combination of so many things that I had been interested in growing up and believed growing up, but it also had that element of believing in Christ, which was something that was really important to me and something that I had fallen away from because I genuinely just didn't believe in Jesus the way that it was portrayed to me before. I felt like I had the wrong information before, you know? So yeah, finding that and and viewing spirituality as a science and as something that I could practically apply to my life and that would change my life in that regard as opposed to seeking an external savior. It was a very different way of approaching it and a very different mindset to how I was raised. And yeah, it's really helped shape my life in a lot of ways. So in a lot of ways, I could simplify it by just saying that I am an occultist, but my path of occultism would be around esoteric Christianity. I hope that makes sense.

Stephanie Winn: I think that's a perfectly good summary for now. And I know you share more about your spirituality on your YouTube channel, so that's certainly a place that anyone could could look for more. The one thing I want to make sure to invite you to comment on before we close is just what you are willing and able to share at this point about your lawsuit. I know that your lawyer has stipulations, of course, as any lawyer would in the midst of an active lawsuit. But what can you tell us about your lawsuit related to the malpractice that you experienced being misguided into doing this so-called gender-affirming care?

Layton: Yeah, I could basically just say that I am suing the therapist that we spoke about in this, as well as several of the doctors at the gender clinic, and as well as the gender clinic as a whole. So that has been really intense. And quite honestly, suing was not anything that ever crossed my mind at all until I started working with other de-transitioners and mentoring them and hearing their stories. And I would be saying back to them, like, this is so messed up. You should seek legal action. This is not OK. What happened to you? And that kind of served as that mirror back to me where I started processing my own experience in a different way. And instead of blaming myself for everything, I started looking back. And especially when I had gone over my medical records again, I started going back and realizing that what I had experienced was not normal, that it wasn't okay, that I, as someone who was severely dissociated and dealing with a lot of PTSD and a lot of complex trauma, that I never should have been led down that path. I should have been given tools to heal. And it was especially disturbing to me, like I said, because now I don't deal with any of those things. I can't even recognize the person that I was in those medical notes when they were treating me because I was in chronic survival mode. And it's really sad to me that that's how my case was handled. And I see this happening now with so many other people. I see this happening now with children. It's very disturbing to me. I think that this is something that has to be stopped. I think it's very sinister. I think it's very evil. So, yeah, I just… I realized that this is so much bigger even than me. And if I can raise awareness of it in any way, and if I can use my pain and trauma and turn it into something potentially good, then I think I would be able to cope with what I had experienced in a better way, if that makes sense.

Stephanie Winn: Well, I really wish you all the best with that lawsuit and, you know, those of us in the gender critical community, we love to talk about lawsuits and how they're coming and how they're here and how this is the year that we turn it around. There's just so many now. I've lost track. I know, um, I've mentioned before on a previous episode, there's an article on Lisa Sellen Davis's blog that was published not too long ago about the seven, no, excuse me, 11 detrans lawsuits in in the US and Canada. And, you know, I'm glad that you're doing this for yourself, for justice, for some financial compensation, hopefully, and that you're doing this for other people as well.

Layton: Thank you. I appreciate that.

Stephanie Winn: So between our two conversations, are there any loose ends left that you wanted to wrap up?

Layton: I feel like we pretty much covered it. I know there's a lot of ground to cover. I feel like my life is so boring now compared to how it used to be, but in a good way.

Stephanie Winn: Boring also known as stable.

Layton: I know, literally, exactly. Yeah, it was a lot to cover, but I appreciate you holding space for me and my story. And I really just appreciate everything that you're doing in general with bringing these stories to the forefront and really prioritizing it. Because as you know, detransitioners are often silenced and shamed and told to shut up. No one wants to hear it, we have to say. everyone thinks we're doing it for attention or that we're grifters or something like that, when in reality, this stuff is extremely difficult to talk about. And it's it's not easy to come out and say like, yeah, I was so naive and and I just I walked right into it. And then I was so disconnected from myself. And it's something that it requires a certain kind of person to be able to share that stuff to you and feel comfortable. So I thank you for being a good example of that kind of person.

Stephanie Winn: I'm remembering very early on when I first was learning about detransitioners and started writing before I'd started my podcast or anything. And I wrote about how, coming from my background as a therapist, the admiration that I felt watching and listening to detransitioners because As a therapist, I'm in this position where I see people like going down paths that They even sometimes consciously know they're going to regret, you know, staying way too long in dead end relationships where they're just getting hurt and used, staying in jobs when they could do better, um, maintaining terrible lifestyle choices that are making them sick. I see people really struggle with finding it in themselves to turn the ship around or to, um, to give up a sunken cost, you know, when they've poured themselves into something to admit this isn't working, it hasn't been working for a long time, and I'm better off cutting my losses and grieving than continuing to try to make this thing work. So I witness people struggle with that so much, and I understand, too, how painful and humiliating it can feel to admit that you were wrong. So when I started noticing some like common themes in detrans story arcs, I was like, wow, this is like a special group of people. While everyone has their own story, there's some common threads. But one of those common threads I see is this kind of like, the ego death almost of going through that, like everything I thought was true is wrong. Everything I thought I was, that was a false conception of myself. things that I really dug my heels in and made these major and public decisions about were mistakes. And to find it in you to admit something like that to the world and to yourself and to give up on that sunken cost and grieve and fall apart and pick up the pieces, it's really hard stuff. I mean, I've spent years trying to gently show people that like, the moment you're ready to admit that this isn't working, I will be here for you to find the strength to do that. And I've seen it take a really long time and a lot of strength. And some people never get there. There are people who stay on the same path for 30, 40, 50 years. Bad relationship, bad job, bad lifestyle choices. So that's part of what really touches me about what you're doing and what other detransitioners are doing, going public or not going public, but going through that process privately. Because I recognize that, sure, it might feel like you have no choice. It might feel like you reach a point of crisis where your health is in danger, or your social world is falling apart, your belief system is falling apart, and you feel like you have to admit you were wrong. But still, to me, there is an element of choice, an element of there's something in this person's character, something in their soul, if you will, that is trying to grow, that is finding the strength to do something that a lot of people would rather spend their lives avoiding doing. And so I really feel a deep, I guess, appreciation and resonance and affinity for anyone willing to to go through that.

Layton: Yeah, and I think that's that's really exactly what it is. I feel like when I look back on my life, I think that the circumstances around it are so interesting, because so much of what I experienced was an attack on my identity over and over and over again. And it feels like I was able to learn such a massive lesson through that. I first of all learned that, like you were saying, there was this part of me that kind of just wouldn't die and couldn't continue to thrive in these situations. So eventually I would reach a point where no matter how much or how deeply I had identified with something, because it wasn't me, it wasn't who I was, I just couldn't maintain it. I couldn't do it anymore. and would eventually pull away from that. And also that there was this part of me that was just extremely resilient through all of that. And that that resilience motivated me to want to continue to attempt to get better, despite the fact that it just felt like every attempt that I had made in the past was leading me nowhere. really felt like I was going to be able to come out on the other side of things. And I certainly don't want to say that my life is perfect by any means. I mean, nobody's life is, but it's stable, very stable and has been for years now and looks nothing the way that it did before. And I 100% feel and believe that I am completely myself now. And I don't say that from a state of dissociation or idealization or anything like that, but from a state of groundedness and acceptance and reality. And I think that that's something that happens to A lot of D transitioners as you really start to reconcile with reality because when you go that far, um, in, into escapism and dissociation and then realize like, this is not what I want. There's kind of this element where you can't help, but to reconcile with reality, because there's a part of you that just so desperately wants that. And a part of you that, um, that really wants to get closer to truth, you know,

Stephanie Winn: Well, we want different things at different times in life. And that's going to change for every individual according to their unique course in life. And then there's also some kind of themes about time in life. I mean, earlier you were joking that your life is boring. And I wanted to be like, yeah, welcome to your 30s. You know, like you want a boring, stable life. Like I, the last thing in the world I wanted in my 20s was to be boring and stable and predictable. And In your 30s, it's like you crave it like oxygen. I mean, doesn't mean I want you to, maybe you need a new hobby. You know, I could, I could, you know, if I had my health back, I think I'd probably make my life a little bit more interesting. My life is pretty boring because my health is keeping me frozen in place. But, um, yeah, I mean, and that's, that's part of the egregious oversight of the whole gender madness is this, this, again, completely unfounded prediction that people are going to want 20, 30, 40, 50 years later, what the same thing they want now. And it's like, what's that based off of? Right? If you take away the like, unique gender logic and the glaze that goes over people's eyes where they lose all reason when when you utter the magic gender word. It's like, what other examples do we have in human life? that a 50 year old wants the same things as a 15 year old, like not much really not very much evidence whatsoever. So I mean, that's part of why I think it's just a matter of time between before the majority of people who have gone through any of this gender stuff, regret it just grow out of it. Whether whether that regret means that they call themselves D transition, whether it means that they go back to living, looking, working, identifying, being a certain way on legal documents, whatever, like, that is going to vary by individual, but reaching at least some kind of point of disillusionment, I think is there. And there's, there are people I've met who, you know, I've met, like middle aged, trans identified females who, you know, been on testosterone 20 years, and they're just like, well, I look like a man. I'm legally married as a man. I'm, you know, everything about me says man. And I just don't want to really go through the trouble of putting everyone in my world through the process of me getting electrolysis on my beard and like, you know, like, everything it would take to go back to looking like and living as a woman. But that doesn't mean that That doesn't mean that that same woman at 40 is still thinking that the decision she made at 20 was the right decision just because she's accepted that she's going through life looking like a man now living as a man. I mean, anyway, there's so much to say about it, but let's, let's wrap it up and let you get on with your evening. Thank you so much for joining me. Um, we said this at the, at the end of the last episode, we'll say it again to where people can find you.

Layton: Yeah, so on YouTube, you can find me as PsychicSomatics. And I also have a website, it's PsychicSomatic.com. And on Twitter, I am on there as Original Angel, but the L's are ones because the L's were already taken.

Stephanie Winn: Okay, sounds good. Well, thank you again for joining me and wishing you all the best with your legal case. Thank you so much. I hope you enjoyed this episode of You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist podcast. To check out my book recommendations, articles, wellness products, guest episodes on other podcasts, consulting services, and lots more, visit SomeTherapist.com or follow me on Twitter or Instagram at SomeTherapist. If you'd like to go deeper, join my community at somekindoftherapist.locals.com. Members can dialogue with other listeners, post questions for upcoming podcast guests to respond to, or ask questions for me to respond to in exclusive members-only Q&A live streams. To learn more about the gender crisis, watch our film, No Way Back, The Reality of Gender-Affirming Parenthood, at nowaybackfilm.com. Special thanks to my producers, Eric and Amber Beals at Different Mix, and to Joey Pecoraro for our theme song, Half Awake. If you appreciate this podcast and want more people to find it, kindly take a moment to rate, review, like, comment, and share on your platforms of choice. Of course, just because I am some therapist doesn't mean I'm your therapist. This podcast is not a substitute for medical advice. If you need help, ask your doctor or browse your local therapists online. And whatever you do next, please take care of yourself. Eat well, sleep well, move your body, get outside, and tell someone you love them. You're worth it.