You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist

198. Psychedelic Roundtable
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[00:00:00] louie: I believe that we're attempting to address something that is beyond us in utilizing the mushrooms and utilizing the LSD and the DMT and the MDMA and the other ketamine, whatever it would be. What happens is a door is [00:00:15] opened and an exchange takes place.

[00:00:16] louie: I think that the mechanism of action, if it's used correctly, could provide a good solution to very severe depression.

[00:00:26] louie: And it's most interesting is that ayahuasca, which is made up of [00:00:30] a vine and a leaf. The leaf has the DMT in it, and the vine has a chemical that we have used for refractory depression in the past.

[00:00:41] skot: You must be some kind of therapist[00:00:45]

[00:00:47] Stephanie: today, marks the first in a series of round table panel discussions on the topic of psychedelics and Christianity. If you've been following my work for a while, there's a couple things you know about me. One is that [00:01:00] I like to dive headfirst into the hardest topics I can possibly find, uh, often before I'm fully prepared to do so.

[00:01:07] Stephanie: So it shouldn't be any surprise to you that if you've also been following me for a while and you know that I've become a Christian over the course of doing this podcast. [00:01:15] But of course, early in my, uh, exploration of Christianity, I decided to tackle a very contentious topic, um, which is the, the intersection of psychedelics and Christianity.

[00:01:25] Stephanie: Um, so as I've begun my foray into exploring, what do Christians think about [00:01:30] psychedelics and and what are those views based on, uh, there's been a lot of incredible voices coming forth. And so we have our first, uh, collection of voices here today. Uh, I wanna thank a [00:01:45] friend of mine for sending me a text, um, pretty early in, you know, after she found out I was a Christian.

[00:01:51] Stephanie: She said, so what do you think about psychedelics now? And I was like, you know, I'm not really sure, but I bet that that's an interesting question for people who've been doing this longer than [00:02:00] me. So. So today's round table, we have four guests, each with interesting backgrounds and perspectives. And while on this podcast, they normally introduce my guests.

[00:02:11] Stephanie: This time I'm gonna have them introduce themselves so that you as the listener, [00:02:15] can match the person to their voice. Um, if you normally listen on audio platforms, but sometimes watch on YouTube, this might be one of those episodes you wanna watch on YouTube because it might make it easier to keep track of who is speaking.

[00:02:29] Stephanie: Alright, [00:02:30] so with that said, uh, as I was planning this round table, I asked each of the potential guests to rate themselves on a scale from one to 10. One being completely opposed to any use of psychedelics from a [00:02:45] Christian perspective, 10 being, uh, very enthusiastic about the possibility of psychedelics being beneficial even while having a Christian perspective.

[00:02:54] Stephanie: And so what I'm gonna do next is have each of my guests introduce themselves in order from where they [00:03:00] are because we have, uh, guests ranging from one to seven out of 10 on this particular collection of people. Uh, so I'm gonna have each person introduce their background just a little bit about themselves and what brings them to this conversation, and then state their number and then [00:03:15] throughout the conversation and we'll explore what views inform those positions.

[00:03:19] Stephanie: So, uh, with that being said, Louie Locke, we're gonna start with you. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining us.

[00:03:25] louie: Thank you so much. It's a joy for me to be able to be a part of this. Like you said, my [00:03:30] name's Lou Locke. I am a married man for 36 years. Wonderful partner named Joanie. Uh, partner in work, partner in life, partner in church, everything.

[00:03:41] louie: Uh, I've been pastoring alongside Joanie for the last 26 [00:03:45] years, hillside Church here in Reno, Nevada. Uh, one of my great passions in life is to help people find, understand, and follow God's plan for their life, as well as to learn how to navigate the real world with integrity and with character [00:04:00] and consistency and, uh, really wanna see people grow to wholeness.

[00:04:04] louie: My own life journey has been one, uh, where, uh, through series of events of abuse and many other things, I spent a lot of time in therapy and it has been an [00:04:15] incredible tool for me. And I have seen from my own experience as a pastor how both the work of the Holy Spirit and therapy have gone hand in hand for the process of bringing people to whole ness, body, soul, mine and spirit.

[00:04:27] louie: And so with that said, [00:04:30] my, uh, number for this, uh, discussion is a one.

[00:04:34] Stephanie: Wow. Thank you so much for that, Louis. I'm really honored to have you here. Um, when I've done panels in the past, I always knew people, everyone on the panel had been a previous guest, and this is completely different. Just getting [00:04:45] to know you all for the first time, and I'm really honored that you're here with, uh, your wealth of experience pastoring.

[00:04:51] Stephanie: And, uh, you know, as a baby Christian, I've had moments of like, what, exploring what is the intersection between my being new to the Christian faith [00:05:00] and then being experienced in these roles that I have, like podcaster. And God has been so gracious with me, just like here, you, you could be a podcaster. You could, uh, be new to the faith at the same time and just sending me these incredible, uh, people to help me grow [00:05:15] and help my listeners grow alongside me.

[00:05:16] Stephanie: So thank you for that introduction, Lou. I'm really grateful to, uh, I'm looking forward to hearing your perspective. Um, so next we have Cam.

[00:05:23] cam: Hey everybody. My name's Cameron, English, uh, or Cam for short. That's fine too. I'm the director of Biosciences at the American [00:05:30] Council on Science and Health. Uh, my background is in science journalism and, um, that's the perspective that I bring to this issue in every issue.

[00:05:38] cam: So, uh, Dr. Lockwood and I, uh, co-host the podcast together. Um, and when I [00:05:45] came to this topic, I came, came at it from, um, looking at it from the per perspective of a harm reduction. So we talk a lot about drug use on our show, and I, I've become increasingly skeptical of that movement and I'm seeing a lot of parallels there that I [00:06:00] also see, uh, in, in this issue when we, when we start talking about both the science and, and the theology of it.

[00:06:06] cam: Um, so I, I am, I think this group might be driving me lower by the hour because I, I'm learning, I'm learning more [00:06:15] about this. I've been introduced to Will Spencer. Uh, and if your, your listeners will know just how, how skeptical he is of, of psychedelics. But, um, nevertheless, the closer I look at this from a scientific perspective, the, the [00:06:30] more concerned I get from, uh, concerned I, I get about what I see.

[00:06:34] cam: And then when I look, consider the theological issues, I'm, I'm getting even more concerned. So I, my number is a two right now, but I think that might go into the negative when, when all is said and done. So we can [00:06:45] discuss the, the specifics of this. But, uh, suffice to say, I'm, I'm not enthused at this moment.

[00:06:51] Stephanie: Cam, it's so great to have your background and perspective here with your understanding of science and theology and your, um, [00:07:00] open-mindedness as well. And I think the harm reduction angle is really important because there's a lot that's been done in the name of harm reduction that is very questionable.

[00:07:08] Stephanie: And so I'm, I'm really grateful that you're gonna bring that in. Next we have Daniel.

[00:07:13] daniel: Hi. Thank you so much for [00:07:15] having me on here. Um, my name's Daniel Elliot. I'm a Air Force veteran. I was a J tac and then I went and got, um, became a counselor in my mid thirties and I got to do a little prisma research [00:07:30] on psilocybin specifically, um, regarding spiritual wellbeing while I was at the university.

[00:07:36] daniel: And I have a unique opinion on it too. It's not too strong, but it's a five. Um, it's a cautious five though.

[00:07:44] Stephanie: And Daniel, am I [00:07:45] recalling correctly that you have done, um, you've participated in some way in psychedelic assisted therapy?

[00:07:51] daniel: So we did a systematic review, so I didn't, there was no actual participants in what we did.

[00:07:56] daniel: It, it collected a lot of random control trials and, and [00:08:00] whatnot.

[00:08:00] Stephanie: Oh, so you've studied, uh, you've studied psychedelic assisted therapy, you haven't conducted it.

[00:08:05] daniel: Correct, yes.

[00:08:06] Stephanie: Okay. That's, that's, wow, great to know. I'm just so impressed with the backgrounds we have coming to this conversation. Um, and then finally, Liza.

[00:08:14] liza: Hi [00:08:15] there. I'm Liza Lockwood. I am an emergency medicine physician and a medical toxicologist. I was in academia for a very long time before I left and became the medical affairs lead for the Crop Science Division of Bayer. Um, I, uh, have, uh, taken care of [00:08:30] lots of people with, um, a variety of different drug overdoses, um, and a a variety of different psychiatric issues.

[00:08:37] liza: And, uh, I'm a seven, uh, on this topic, although I fully align with, uh, cam's, uh, [00:08:45] concern about harm reduction. Um, and I, I'm all for harm reduction, but I think that the way it's been implemented is a little bit concerning to me, but because of the scientific, um, aspect of the potential of these, [00:09:00] uh, these chemistries, um, I'm kind of interested in, uh, managing very refractory depression and suicidality, um, and things like that.

[00:09:10] liza: So that's the more of this spin, um, from my perspective. [00:09:15] Um, and I'm a practicing Catholic.

[00:09:16] Stephanie: Okay. Wow. I'm so excited to, uh, dive in today and, uh, let me just kind of frame up part of why I'm interested in this topic. You know, both of course, as a Christian, I'm interested in how faith [00:09:30] informs all kinds of things.

[00:09:31] Stephanie: Um, but I've also interviewed several people now on this podcast. Who, uh, for whom psychedelics played some sort of pivotal role in personal transformation for the better. [00:09:45] Um, so namely detransition, people who were caught up in a lie and harming their bodies because of this lie. Or from one perspective, it could be considered an obsession.

[00:09:57] Stephanie: Um, and for whom [00:10:00] psychedelics played some kind of role in, I guess creating an ego death of sorts, being able to see outside of themself and have that false construct fall apart and then choose a better path. So we do know psychedelics, of course, very powerful drugs. And [00:10:15] I'm sure that, you know, for every story of someone having a really positive experience like that, where a lie that their life was built on, fell apart.

[00:10:23] Stephanie: There are also stories like the ones that you guys mentioned, like Will Spencer, names of people deciding to leave their [00:10:30] spouse, leave their family, uh, because they thought that they reached some kind of enlightenment. So I, I wanna acknowledge that there's both sides to the story, but I think that's part of why I can't just easily dismiss this.

[00:10:40] Stephanie: I can't just be like, oh, I'm a Christian now, and my friend Will Spencer, who's gonna be on one of these [00:10:45] future round tables, tells me that, you know, that's not Christian. So I'm just gonna take that word for it because it's like, these are really powerful drugs for better, for worse. And I also got to interview.

[00:10:55] Stephanie: Pastor Chris Legg recently, uh, who said he was a five because of those [00:11:00] potential therapeutic uses as well. So I'm gonna kind of hold that space anchored in the background that there are these, uh, therapeutic uses that are being explored. There are also lots of anecdotes and at the same time lot of concern for harm and then spiritual [00:11:15] aspects as well.

[00:11:16] Stephanie: Um, so now we're gonna kind of go through again, and I'm going to invite everyone to share their perspective as to why you chose that number as well as any pieces of scripture that inform your perspective on this matter, starting [00:11:30] with Louis.

[00:11:30] louie: Sure thing. It's, uh, it's interesting because one of the things in my own experiences with life, and, you know, I've never taken, uh, psychedelics, but I have been very closely, uh, [00:11:45] watching the, the, the narrative regarding psychedelics and their use potentially for especially very hard or challenging cases where people are in incredible suffering, whether it be PTS or, or as you mentioned, uh, detransition [00:12:00] people who are going through, uh, the dark night of the soul who are looking for something, anything.

[00:12:05] louie: And usually it's not the first thing they're looking at, it's grasping for, for something to, to intersect with. And I, I do want to say, I, I would [00:12:15] acknowledge. With even saying my number is a one, that there is a, a shown benefit for people there, there's something that they're getting out of it. Uh, my reasoning behind the one is, [00:12:30] uh, I believe that we're a beginning to, or, or attempting to address something that is beyond us, which is not beyond just humans do that all the time, but we're in utilizing the, the mushrooms and utilizing [00:12:45] the LSDA and the DMT and the MDMA and the other ketamine, whatever it would be.

[00:12:50] louie: Uh, we end up taking on a role or potentially of, uh, almost a defacto shaman in a situation where we say, we can control this. We think we understand [00:13:00] our intent is positive, and so though we know this to be, uh, brain chemistry altering, uh, we think we're, we're doing this in with a good intention to do so.

[00:13:12] louie: And so there is an entering of what I would [00:13:15] call the second heaven or the spirit realm. And within the scriptures we're invited directly to interact with God through Jesus, uh, led by the Holy Spirit in our interactions. But we're also, uh, warned against entering into [00:13:30] this, this second heaven enter into this spirit realm, uh, through, uh, any means other than Jesus.

[00:13:37] louie: And as such, uh, I believe as we would use, or there would be even the therapeutic intent for use of, [00:13:45] uh, the psychedelics. That what happens is a door is opened and an exchange takes place, uh, something in the, in the second heaven. You know, maybe you would say malevolent spirits. Others would say, uh, kind guides.

[00:13:57] louie: I think it depends on your, your perspective. For me, if [00:14:00] it's not Jesus, if it's not the Holy Spirit, if it's not God of the Father, it's not somebody that's there to help us. It. I would go with malevolent that there's an exchange and for a period of time we can receive a benefit much in a contractual way, where [00:14:15] we engage with this, with the thought that this is going to help us.

[00:14:19] louie: Not taking into consideration that in the long run there is a, an ongoing open door as though our front door of our house is open and anything can come in. [00:14:30] And continue to influence. I'm not saying outright possession from the beginning. I'm not saying that it happens in every situation to every person, but that once the door is open, there is a legal right for whatever has been a [00:14:45] part of bringing that instance about no matter how well intended the therapist may have been in doing it, to, to allow for the continued alteration, not just of the brain, but also of the thought patterns and getting into the intents of the [00:15:00] heart, heading towards, um, uh, the gradual and what Jesus referred to as, uh, the enemy's purpose, which is to steal, to kill, and to destroy.

[00:15:10] louie: Uh, rarely does the enemy show up in our lives in a way where he says, you [00:15:15] know, hi, I'm here to destroy your life. Usually, uh, Galatians talks about how he would even appear as an angel of light and appears as something that's beneficial. And yet most, you know, I, I had listened to what, and thank you for sharing your interview with Chris Leg.

[00:15:29] louie: I, [00:15:30] I found myself agreeing with a lot of what he had said, and yet came to the opposite conclusion, number wise in that because we don't know so much of what's going on and because of the experience that, uh, I know and have with dealing [00:15:45] with the spirit realm, dealing with, uh, not only relationship with God, but in having to take stands against the enemy in collation, or excuse me, Ephesians five says, you know, have nothing to do with the works of darkness, but rather expose them.

[00:15:56] louie: Seeing that. What better than such? Uh, [00:16:00] something like this with actual benefits that are attached to it, but there's a small print, like it's a small print of a prescription drug commercial where it's like they sure talk really fast at the end and there's a whole bunch that they say could potentially happen.

[00:16:13] louie: And it's like, we don't know what that is, but [00:16:15] to me there's a, a something that is would warrant definite, not just caution, but it's like not going down this road, but wanting to stay involved in the discussion and, and in the pursuit of wholeness for people. So

[00:16:28] Stephanie: that is such an [00:16:30] interesting perspective.

[00:16:31] Stephanie: And as you were speaking, I was recalling words I heard years ago, I think I was back in grad school at the time, it was some of my friends from grad school, um, and one of them did a sort [00:16:45] of like therapeutic MDMA experience with another friend from grad school who was trained in this. And when she was telling me about it, she, she used language actually similar to what you just said, that there's some kind of [00:17:00] exchange or trade being made.

[00:17:01] Stephanie: Like she felt like she got something out of it, but she also felt like there was a contract with the spirit of MDMA, whatever that might be. And you know, when I was talking to Will Spencer, I think the first time [00:17:15] he, uh, when he was describing the spirit of Ayahuasca, my reflection on that was. That it, it seems like the people who trust that spirit are making the assumption that that spirit is, um, benevolent.

[00:17:29] Stephanie: [00:17:30] Right. But, but how do you know that? How do you know that it's wise and has your best interest at heart? Um, can you describe the second heaven? I haven't studied theology nearly enough to know what that means.

[00:17:43] louie: Some may refer to it, [00:17:45] uh, and it has new age connotations when they would say like the astral plane.

[00:17:49] louie: But for me it would be the, the first heaven would be the places where we live. We look up, we see the sky. The second heaven is a place we cannot go by getting in a vehicle [00:18:00] or a spacecraft and traveling to it. But it would be the realm and domain of angels, demons. It would be the, the, the uh, the in-between, between here and the third heaven, which it would be the, the place of God where [00:18:15] his throne resides.

[00:18:16] louie: And so second heaven being a, a plane that can be accessed. And I think even when we would, uh, come to the Father through Jesus and the Holy Spirit, that we are coming there under his [00:18:30] protection, under his hand. But we also, uh, have access to this. And I think this is where, uh. The, the caution for me would come in, any access apart from that would be, you know, Jesus said, he's the gate, he's the door, come through me.

[00:18:44] louie: Do you [00:18:45] anyone who comes through a different area, you know, is coming in the, the way of the thief still has access, but instead of being there with the protection and the garden or, or the, the protection and the guard of the Holy Spirit, you're there on your own, open and [00:19:00] vulnerable to whatever may be there with the thought.

[00:19:02] louie: Something good could happen and there could be benefit. And almost always is a tangible sense of benefit. But there is a exchange and there is a cost, and it's all, it's the credit card interest to be paid later. And it's dictated by the [00:19:15] terms of the one who's made that contract.

[00:19:17] Stephanie: Lemme ask you this, it's, it's a question I might bring up again throughout our conversation.

[00:19:22] Stephanie: Um, when I've started to explore this topic, the word pharmaca has come up. Um, uh, you'd probably [00:19:30] better define that than me. I'll, I'll let you define it, but my question is. Is psychedelic use always a form of pharmaca, or does it depend on any particular contextual factors?

[00:19:43] louie: Well, I'm not [00:19:45] a, uh, a, a great Greek scholar.

[00:19:48] louie: I can use the concordance pretty well, and I've done my homework in this area. Pharmaca is, you know, as a kid, I grew up, my, my grand, my grandfather was a, a pharmacist and [00:20:00] so I thought, oh, immediate connotate, no, it actually had to do with the sorceries. And it's the intent to engage using substances usually along with practices for the purpose of bringing about a particular end or a [00:20:15] particular desired outcome.

[00:20:16] louie: And that, that is taking place in a way where, you know, it, it's a sim similar definition could be applied to, or stretched to witchcraft where if I do these things, it will bring about this [00:20:30] result. And so, uh, I don't know that the intent of the individual, no matter how well, well-meaning is worth that being able to say, well, the, we can use, you know, the word I've heard used a [00:20:45] lot is we microdosing, we're not, you know, we're not going for the full on multiple day trip.

[00:20:49] louie: We're just gonna use a little. That's also assuming that the person who's leading that or who's administering it has the adequate understanding on everything that this does, and also [00:21:00] every door that is open from that point. So. I don't know that they can. Uh, and I, as you know, I, I think in terms of my own life with Christ, but I also think in terms of the local church, this is, these are questions that [00:21:15] this is, this isn't the first time I've, I've discussed this with someone within the context of churches they're seeking, you know, I, I've been an addict for this period of time.

[00:21:22] louie: I've heard this could help. What do you think? And it's not a, okay, let pastor tell you what to do. It's, you have to own this for yourself, but also know, [00:21:30] here's the concerns that I would have and also what processes is Jesus taking you through in this time that he wants to meet your needs and to be your sufficiency, even in the points of weakness leading you towards the point where healing is happening.

[00:21:44] louie: It may [00:21:45] not be with the instantaneous promise that often, uh, you know, sometimes the, the biggest proponents of psychedelics will say, it's like, it's such a quick change, but if there is still a process he's, he's bringing. And so I hope that is, uh, helps [00:22:00] address that a little bit

[00:22:00] Stephanie: clear as mud. Is it Pharmaca or is it, I mean, I am, I, I, am I hearing like Yes.

[00:22:11] Stephanie: Like,

[00:22:12] louie: oh yeah. And, and sorry about that. I would say yes. I [00:22:15] would say it's Pharmaca no matter what the intent of the individual. And I think that in Certains, in, in Costa Rica, the shaman who's doing this wholeheartedly goes all witch doctor on it. Here it would be much more of a clinical approach. I would [00:22:30] say same thing's happening.

[00:22:31] louie: It doesn't matter the delivery system, it's simply the, you know, the work with whatever delivery system they can get.

[00:22:38] Stephanie: If there is a big difference in intent, context, um, [00:22:45] beliefs around what these drugs do and what they're for. If there is a big difference between that Shaman and Costa Rica and the person who attends your church, who micro doses.

[00:22:57] Stephanie: Would you say that I, I mean, [00:23:00] I'm just trying to understand what you're saying and I'm wondering if it's kind of the, the hubris of thinking that one can, uh, dabble in powerfuls substances. Is, is that one of the main [00:23:15] factors that you see contributing to how it's sorcery?

[00:23:18] louie: It is, and I think it is also, um, people do a self creat with their intentions.

[00:23:25] louie: They do a self creating theology. This is the world that I'm choosing to believe that how this [00:23:30] functions, this may be a bad example or a bad, uh, uh, comparison. Um, you may have heard of the, the K-pop demon hunters, uh, pop music

[00:23:42] Stephanie: Netflix show.

[00:23:43] louie: Yeah. Yeah. And [00:23:45] so I have eight grandkids. They're in various stages of wanting to watch these shows.

[00:23:50] louie: I. Hearing the reasoning why they wanna watch the show. It's like, well, I know we're not supposed to be, uh, dealing with demons poppy, but when what the, what's actually happening [00:24:00] is this, they, their music, even though it's not about God, their music is what helps them to overcome and defeat the demons. And that's, and what I hear my granddaughter saying is, this is the theology and the belief system that they've chosen to [00:24:15] apply to this show.

[00:24:17] louie: But just because they've applied, that does not mean in the real world that there is an actual theology and actual truth that dictates we cannot deal with the demonic realm apart from [00:24:30] coming through Jesus with the authority he gives to us. I think in the same way, we may find that people create an understanding or have an intent of their heart that is very, very pure desire for healing.

[00:24:42] louie: And yet it is not the actual [00:24:45] theology of what's taking place. It's not the actual practice. It is something that becomes, uh, utilized as a tool. It can be a very seen as a helpful tool, but whether it's the shaman or whether it's the therapist, they're both engaging in that Pharmaca. [00:25:00] One very knowingly saying, spirit realm, do your thing.

[00:25:03] louie: The other one saying, no, I'm coming in here with a medical focus and we're gonna do this and this is how it's gonna work. And they may be coming from the same, from different spots, but with, in the same way.

[00:25:13] Stephanie: Interesting. [00:25:15] Alright. I'm sure everyone's having lots of thoughts being sparked by the conversation so far, and you're taking your notes and, and hopefully we'll be able to at least get to half of what everyone's thinking today.

[00:25:26] Stephanie: Uh, let's move on to Cam. Tell us why you [00:25:30] at least began this conversation as a two. I don't know, maybe you'll be a one by the end of it.

[00:25:34] cam: I debated whether or not to share this publicly, but I think it's relevant to the conversation. So, um, in 2013, I was diagnosed with depression and, um, I ended up going to [00:25:45] therapy and it probably saved my life.

[00:25:48] cam: Um, and I became a Christian probably about 10 years later. Excuse me. And what I realized after, after I came to God [00:26:00] was that all of the things I was learning in therapy were just biblical truths. And it just took somebody consistently. And, and my, my counselor, by the way, was a former pastor who went into, um, went into therapy.

[00:26:13] cam: And what, what I [00:26:15] learned from this man was that he was just, and without telling me he was doing it right, he was taking things from the scriptures and he was just applying them to this, these kind of circumstances. Um, so for example, um. In the Sermon on the mountain in Matthew six, [00:26:30] Jesus. And so many words says, can you add even an hour to your life by worrying?

[00:26:36] cam: And of course, that's a rhetorical question. The answer is no, of course not. And then he goes on to say, and this is my paraphrase, of course, uh, you know, I feed the birds. What are you worried about? Why are you, [00:26:45] you know, what are you navel gazing for? Right? It doesn't, it doesn't do you any good. And so it was many years of, of sitting with somebody trying to instruct me in that truth.

[00:26:55] cam: And so now that I am a Christian, now that I'm reading my Bible every day, now that I'm going to [00:27:00] church every week, you know, now I'm, now that I'm trying to apply, um, God's word to my life, I'm starting to see that it's not, and I, and I wanna be clear, I'm not anti-drug or anti-medicine, but what I, what I, what I saw in my own life and what I've seen in other people [00:27:15] is that there's this incredible transformation, um, that takes place, uh, when you become a Christian.

[00:27:22] cam: And so I think. Just to back up before we really dive into the, all the arguments about psychedelics, I really think the [00:27:30] focus for us as Christians needs to be, what does God's word say about fear and anxiety, and what does it say about how we're supposed to live? And that was one of the things that struck me is, and it's funny, I grew up in the church, but I never read the Bible.

[00:27:42] cam: I was a pastor's kid. I was just sort of in, right? [00:27:45] I was just in the club. And I think a lot of people that grew up in church can relate to that. Um, but when you start to read it, you go, wow, this touches every aspect of my life. Right? There's nothing in, in your life that you'll experience that the Bible doesn't say something about.

[00:27:59] cam: Right? [00:28:00] There's very clear guidance in many things. And so that's one of the things I would stress out of the gate, and it's why I'm as skeptical as I am, is because the Bible gives us a lot of instruction, a lot of very helpful instruction. And as a culture, not, not in this [00:28:15] conversation, I don't think this is the case here, but as a culture, we've more or less totally discarded what the Bible says about marriage, about sexuality, um, even about how our government fun functions, the, the amount of corruption and evil that that goes on, um, in the [00:28:30] highest levels of power.

[00:28:30] cam: What we, we've totally disregarded what the Bible says, but now that it comes to a situation where we have an explosion in mental illness, I think the CDC says depression has increased by like 60% over the last decade, right? So we have all of these things going wrong. [00:28:45] In society. And now that we're in the circumstance, we go, oh, maybe we can concoct a biblical argument for why people can trip.

[00:28:51] cam: Yes, let's do that. And so I'm, I'm highly skeptical of this approach and I think. To go back to my, my, my science [00:29:00] journalism background. When you start to look at the research and, and I'm, I'm curious, I'm, Daniel probably has a slightly different perspective, but when I look at the research that's been done, it's not good.

[00:29:08] cam: It's, it's the, the trials are very low quality. You have this phenomenon, I've never seen this before in any other of the studies I've looked [00:29:15] at, where you're dosing the control group, right? So, so you're trying to find out if this, if the, you know, one of these drugs can improve people's mood or if it can have some, some beneficial outcome for them.

[00:29:26] cam: And then the control group is being dosed. And [00:29:30] my understanding is that this is a way to try to blind the study because, you know, if, if there's one group and they're seeing shapes and unicorns and dragons or whatever, right? They know that they're the experimental group and so do the researchers. So it's very difficult to blind the study.

[00:29:43] cam: But I think those are [00:29:45] secondary questions and those are sort of an outgrowth of the problem that you're dealing with. That, that, that ultimately these probably aren't the answer. And so you're gonna start to see these problems, uh, as people research them, as, as they try to use them for these, uh, [00:30:00] medicinal purposes.

[00:30:01] cam: So I, that's, I just threw a whole bunch at you and there's a lot of stuff to dissect there, but I think that gives you hopefully sort of an overview of, of my thinking.

[00:30:08] Stephanie: I can start to hear a rebuttal to your point. And I guess where, what I was thinking about is religious [00:30:15] OCD and maybe that's 'cause I read a really good article about it recently.

[00:30:18] Stephanie: Um, I'm coming from a different background. I was not raised in the church and I. Found my way to faith my way. I had to, I had to go on my own journey and explore and sort of, [00:30:30] you know, I needed to build Christianity from first principles before I could accept it. I wasn't just gonna be like, oh, the people around me are Christian, so I'm Christian.

[00:30:37] Stephanie: Like, I definitely had to, um, figure it out for myself in a way. Um, but also then there's, there's the process of [00:30:45] receiving grace, right? And God sort of seeing me and all my ways of, you know, aiming for him, but missing the mark and, and is like, okay, I think I'll help around just nudge her towards the center a little bit more.

[00:30:56] Stephanie: Um, but I, I, I, so I'm thinking [00:31:00] about this religious OCD, uh, that I, I read someone sharing about recently and thinking about how scripture sure sounds good when you, when you pull the things about, you know, for example, um, [00:31:15] which of you by worrying can add one hour to your life? Um, and I think yes, if you've been blessed with enough faith, then you can receive.

[00:31:29] Stephanie: What is really [00:31:30] meant from those words, right? Uh, but I'm imagining the people who let's say, didn't struggle their way to Christ on their own like I did, where, you know, now it really makes sense to me because I, I, I had to think about it in all these different ways. [00:31:45] I'm thinking about the people who, you know, maybe been brought up in the church and, and maybe have something like, um, you know, an anxiety disorder or obsessive compulsive disorder and, um, and it's like, oh, that [00:32:00] sounds good.

[00:32:01] Stephanie: That sounds good. The idea that, um, you know, I shouldn't worry. God wants me to not worry, but, but my mind is really stuck in this place of worry. And I, I don't know, I don't know how that even sounds when I say it out [00:32:15] loud, when I talk about like, oh, well my journey is authentic because like, I, you know, I wasn't just gonna go along with Christianity 'cause it was what other people were doing.

[00:32:24] Stephanie: Like maybe that sounds, uh, sounds ridiculous. I don't know. I don't know what it's like to be brought up in the faith. [00:32:30] Um, but I, I guess I'm just, uh, it's, as prideful as it might sound, is, is actually an attempt at empathy for people who maybe had just a different cultural background than myself. Like, like you said, cam, about growing up in the church or like, my husband is one of these types [00:32:45] who like grew up Catholic and um.

[00:32:49] Stephanie: Never really studied the gospel or like what it meant for our lives, you know, it was just more about the ritual. So I guess I'm just kind of trying to like bridge that gap and find some [00:33:00] empathy for people who maybe have a hard time receiving the words of scripture and implementing them because they feel like their mind is their enemy or they're getting stuck.

[00:33:10] Stephanie: Does that make sense?

[00:33:12] cam: Yeah. Um, well, let, let me, let me add a little, [00:33:15] um, a little context. So when you grow up in the church, and I think a lot of people can resonate with this, when you grow up in the church, especially if you are, um, the, the child of a pastor, you see how the sausage is made, so to speak. You [00:33:30] know, so you see hypocrisy up close.

[00:33:33] cam: You know, I remember very vividly as a, as a kid, and I grew up in the Pentecostal church, which which is very much the emphasis is on, you know, we're, we're modern day prophets and we can heal and we speak [00:33:45] in tongues and were hyper spiritual, right? So I would see people that would profess this kind of faith who would cheat on their spouses.

[00:33:52] cam: And would, would misappropriate funds just like really dark things. And so it took, it took years, but I cultivated a [00:34:00] kind of syn cynicism about Christianity and I never explicitly rejected it, but I did walk away from it in my twenties where I, like my life did not look any different from any other 22 year olds.

[00:34:10] cam: Right. I was doing whatever I felt like. Um, so I don't, I [00:34:15] I don't, I don't know if that's what you were getting at, but I, but I just would. Yeah. Yeah. I was just illustrating that like, I'm not, it's not that I grew up in this bubble and then all of a sudden I was like, oh, I, I believe this now. Like, I walked away from it and I developed a lot of anger and bitterness about the church.[00:34:30]

[00:34:30] cam: Um, but what I was getting at is like during, about five years ago, right? Like a lot of people, it was during the pandemic and it wasn't what was going out, uh, going on out in the world. It was seeing how awful my own behavior was, right? I was like, a lot of people, I was [00:34:45] drinking abusively. 'cause I was bored, I was stuck.

[00:34:47] cam: I was stuck here, right? I would, I would do my work and I would get done. Um, and then I would go just hang out with my neighbors. And it was fun for a few weeks, but then not, you know, very quickly you go, what am I doing? Right? Like, I'm, I'm wasting my [00:35:00] time. I'm harming my body. I'm harming my, my, my mental health.

[00:35:04] cam: Like this is just destructive. And it, it's funny how, how God works because I would, I would alternate between abusively drinking and like listening to a sermon from. An awesome theologian like [00:35:15] RC Sproul, uh, or John MacArthur or something, right? And so I was getting this like, just like this punch in the face of this gospel truth.

[00:35:22] cam: And then it just hit me one day and I went, I believe this. Like I have to, I have to change my life. I have to stop all of this madness, [00:35:30] right? And that's where the process begins. And so, and to, to your point about faith, I think your faith increases over time. And the Bible, the Bible talks about this, right?

[00:35:39] cam: Right. There's a, I, I forget the tation off the top of my head, but, um, [00:35:45] this, this man asked Jesus to heal his child. And, and, and, um, I forget, Jesus says, maybe Louie can help me out here. Jesus says, um,

[00:35:58] Stephanie: he basically tells him to [00:36:00] go home and he doesn't even need to visit the kid,

[00:36:01] cam: right? No. No. Well, he says, um, he says, um, heal my child if you can.

[00:36:06] cam: And Jesus says, if you can, he said, don't you know all things are possible for those who believe in God. And the, and the man says, I believe, help my unbelief. [00:36:15] And I, and like I read that the first time as an adult and I went, that is just. How is that in there, right? Like, how is that in the Bible? God knew that this would be a struggle for new believers, right?

[00:36:26] cam: That we would battle doubt and we would battle these kind of challenges, [00:36:30] right? So I hope that, I hope that gets to your point, right? But I think, you know, being a new Christian, you're gonna struggle with these kind of things and you're gonna struggle with your sin, and you're gonna struggle with mental illness or like whatever your thing is, right?

[00:36:41] cam: This is, and you talked about this with Will actually, this is this process of [00:36:45] sanctification that we, that we're all going on through this life, this, this pilgrimage is, you know, one of the, one of the metaphors that you hear a lot. So, I don't know, I hope that I appreciated you. I hope that that clarifies your

[00:36:56] Stephanie: Yes.

[00:36:56] Stephanie: Because as I was talking, I was like, oh, I sound full of [00:37:00] crap right now. I was like, I'm like saying that like, because I wasn't raised Christian, that like my faith is more genuine. And I'm like, okay, that's not what I mean. There's like something I'm, I'm trying to make that's actually a valid point here.

[00:37:11] Stephanie: And, and, and I think, um, you, you helped me [00:37:15] because, you know, I can't remember if it was CS Lewis who said God has no grandchildren. Um, but it's this idea that, it's my understanding anyway, that you, you may be blessed to, um, you know, grow up in a family that raises [00:37:30] you in the faith, but ultimately. It has to be your, your own, right?

[00:37:35] Stephanie: Like, you can't just get like grandfathered in. And, and so you went through your prodigal phase and we, we know how, how God [00:37:45] rushes to welcome back his, uh, prodigal children. So thank you for that. And, and yeah, I'm just kind of a imagining like what is it like for young people growing up in the church who, um, [00:38:00] haven't struggled outside of that and may see some of that hypocrisy or things that test their faith and therefore find it hard to apply those teachings to their life.

[00:38:12] Stephanie: So thank you Kim, for helping me [00:38:15] clarify that.

[00:38:16] cam: Yeah, my pleasure.

[00:38:17] Stephanie: All right, let's go to Daniel. Um, tell us about what informs your stance. You said you were a five on this issue.

[00:38:23] daniel: I think it was Louie who said s he's very skeptical about it. Um, and I think Kim, I have said that too. I think that's a [00:38:30] really good place to be.

[00:38:31] daniel: I think it's, I I don't think it's a, I don't think it's a, um, I don't think that going to a music festival is gonna somehow help and then taking a psychedelic is gonna somehow help you. I don't think that going or [00:38:45] just doing it randomly is gonna help anybody. I also, um, not every psychedelic is created equally.

[00:38:53] daniel: We talked about MDMA. There's nowhere on the earth you could find that naturally has MDMA. [00:39:00] It is a fully synthetic psychedelic. Um, if it's even a full psychedelic, I don't know, maybe, um, other people know that better than me. That's not what I studied. But, um, so it is [00:39:15] speci, like specifically psilocybin and I guess Ihu ask and some of these other ones that are completely natural.

[00:39:21] daniel: I think that there's a long-term culture of being fearful of them, especially in Western society, and it's been built up for a long [00:39:30] time, and I don't think we're supposed to be fearful of them. Um, as a Christian, I think I often find myself thinking about, um, I don't really prescribe to a Deeno denomination, I guess, but I would call myself [00:39:45] a bist.

[00:39:45] daniel: But, um, even scared to do that because, um, I don't wanna put too much credit on myself, but, um, when it, when it comes to fearing it [00:40:00] and ca and, uh, allocating sourcery to it, or pharma, I forget the word, pharmaco something. Um, I think about the other times we do those types of things. Childbirth, anesthesia.[00:40:15]

[00:40:15] daniel: I've had a couple sur I've had three major surgeries. Um, I cannot imagine not going under anesthesia for them. DMT is found in most anesthesia.

[00:40:26] Stephanie: Wait, what?

[00:40:27] louie: Hmm.

[00:40:29] Stephanie: DMT dm. [00:40:30]

[00:40:32] daniel: Is that not true?

[00:40:33] Stephanie: We have our toxicologist here.

[00:40:35] liza: No, no, not, not really. Some people think that DMT contributes to, um, dream-like states, but you really actually in your brain [00:40:45] don't produce enough DMT to get you to the level, uh, where you're gonna have those hallucinations and things like that.

[00:40:51] liza: But anesthesia does definitely take you into a different realm, um, when it comes to consciousness and things like that. But most, [00:41:00] most anesthesia is not related to that kind of thing. But there are some anesthetics that have hallucinogenic properties, and we can talk about that in a little bit.

[00:41:08] Stephanie: I will just add, and I'm gonna ha hand the mic back to Daniel, but when I've been under anesthesia, I did feel like [00:41:15] angels were doing something to me.

[00:41:16] Stephanie: Uh, it was, it was kind of a psychedelic experience. This is in a dentist office. Anyway, Daniel, please continue.

[00:41:21] daniel: So, uh, we, we make these exceptions for other things. And then, um, back to Cam a little bit on the, on the science about [00:41:30] it. It's been, it's been really pushed under the rug. It's been, it's been oppressed, if you will.

[00:41:36] daniel: Um, it's not been openly allowed to be researched for a long, long time. Until recently. Eric, I think his name's Dr. Straumann, he, he [00:41:45] wrote about, he was the first guy to, to in the eighties to research DMT itself. And he said one of the insights he pulled from it was, it's a chemically induced, um, schizophrenic psychosis.

[00:41:55] daniel: I think it's almost a direct quote, but I don't wanna. Say is a direct quote. [00:42:00] Um, so we have different type types of psychedelics and we have different types of hypocrisy. And you can find it in any church and in any denomination. And if you, and you can find it outside of any church too, because if you look at a human long enough, you're [00:42:15] eventually gonna find hypocrisy.

[00:42:19] daniel: So I don't think it's something that we should be, I do not think it's something that we should be fearful of. I think it's something we should look into the medicinal value of. Um, [00:42:30] I do, I, I, like I said earlier, I'm a five, but I'm a very skeptic five because of the spiritual aspect of it. There is a spiritual dose.

[00:42:38] daniel: There is a therapeutic dose. They are different when it comes to psilocybin. If you look at Colorado and organ, [00:42:45] um, Oregon, they both the, the maximum dose you're allowed to do at those centers, and you're not allowed to tag the word therapy to it, but the maximum dose you're allowed to do at those centers is, it's not a dose based on your body weight, [00:43:00] which is the, a big issue.

[00:43:01] daniel: Um, it's not a dose based on other, um, um, biological factors. And it is lower than what the therapeutic dose would be. So I, it doesn't really make sense to me why, what, [00:43:15] why they're doing that there yet. Okay.

[00:43:16] Stephanie: Sorry,

[00:43:16] daniel: what

[00:43:17] Stephanie: do you mean? Stop that Daniel? What do you mean? That, um, you, you're saying at the centers in Oregon.

[00:43:27] Stephanie: Colorado where some kind of psychedelic, [00:43:30] quasi therapeutic experience is decriminalized that the maximum dosage allowed is not a therapeutic dose, is not, what do you mean? Sorry, can you put some numbers to [00:43:45] that? Like,

[00:43:45] daniel: I, I can't pull it super fast, but I can, I, I, I remember the, um, I think it's about like one gram less for, so when it comes to psilocybin, it's about exactly one gram less than the average therapeutic dose, [00:44:00] which is arguably, depending on the research you're looking at a whole gram less.

[00:44:04] daniel: Uh, and it depends when you're talking about this, the, the mushroom versus the actual, uh, psilocybin psilocin itself. But that's about a gram less than the spiritual dose as well.

[00:44:13] Stephanie: So what, and what are those [00:44:15] numbers? What, what are you calling a spiritual dose and a therapeutic dose?

[00:44:19] daniel: The therapeutic dose is what is often, essentially it's about what people call a macro dose.

[00:44:24] daniel: Like if you watch,

[00:44:26] Stephanie: can you give us a number? I'm just trying to make sure I understand what you're [00:44:30] saying.

[00:44:30] daniel: I don't have the, I don't have the exact number available to me. I actually made a calculator in Excel for it, though. I don't, I don't have that memorized, but, um, but yeah, it's, it's a, I if, if I'm not mistaken, it's 3.5 grams.

[00:44:43] Stephanie: 3.5 grams is what you [00:44:45] would call a

[00:44:45] daniel: therapeutic Yeah. Of actual would be of actual mushrooms. And then I think it's 0.35 or something. I, I forget the cill and, um, calculation on that. So are, so in Oregon, you see, you often see two point, uh, 2.5 is the max that's allowed [00:45:00] or 0.25 for psilocin. I could be incorrect.

[00:45:02] Stephanie: That's a very, that's still a very powerful amount of psilocybin.

[00:45:05] daniel: Right? But it just happens to be less than what all of the research we have on it says is the therapeutic dose.

[00:45:11] Stephanie: Interesting. Okay. So, [00:45:15] um, Daniel, you said that as far as the natural psychedelics go, that there's this long-term culture of fear that you don't think should be there.

[00:45:26] Stephanie: And I'm wondering if it was you who said in a group chat, 'cause for listeners [00:45:30] context, we have a bunch of people in the group chat and this is, uh, only a, a small sample of those who got back to me in time and had really compelling bios. Um, but was it you, Daniel, who said in the group chat, uh, when, when I asked [00:45:45] for Bible verses that, um, do not call unclean, that which the Lord has declared clean?

[00:45:50] Stephanie: Was that you?

[00:45:52] daniel: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:45:53] Stephanie: Okay. So is that sort of what you're saying, that if, that this is something God made that it's [00:46:00] natural, therefore we should not fear it? Is that your perspective?

[00:46:03] daniel: Yes. I don't think we should fear it. I think there's a lot of discernment going into it. And then when you get to the spiritual side of things, I might even go a little less than a five at times because it really depends on the relationship [00:46:15] you have with that person.

[00:46:16] daniel: It depends on the, the intent that persons has. That's, that's going to be your, um. Psilocybin assisted psychedelic therapist or whatever, um, the terminology is allowed this week is, is, um, [00:46:30] and it, it, it also like, it's, I don't think it's something that you just go and do. I don't think it's something you just go to a resort and do.

[00:46:37] daniel: I think you need to do a lot of therapy first and all. This is what it, this is where the positive outcomes that are long-term come from. [00:46:45] Um, because if you just do it, there's gonna be an afterglow and you're gonna forget those insights and it's not gonna make sense. You're not gonna remember most of the stuff that happened on it anyways.

[00:46:54] daniel: So you, you need to understand your expectations, the limitations of the substance. Um, and [00:47:00] that takes a lot of time and it takes a lot of history and it, and it gets into the exploratory phase of psychotherapy. Um, and then after the dosing session, somebody needs to be sitting there. That therapist needs to be sitting there with you and [00:47:15] completely recording all of this, this stuff that you have.

[00:47:18] daniel: And it might sound like, not gibberish, but it might sound like it doesn't make sense. It might sound like, uh, very confusing, like revelation or zacharia or something. Right. Um, [00:47:30] it might, it might sound extremely confusing like those books and with, with what comes out of somebody when they're, when they're doing that, and then how do we integrate that, those insights into the person's life.

[00:47:41] daniel: A music festival and you just gotta feel super good 'cause you got a lot of support [00:47:45] from everybody there on the same rhythm as you or something like that. Um, you probably more than the, than the preparation sessions, probably 10 to 20 minimum. I don't wanna put an exact number because that's not realistic, but a lot of [00:48:00] integration set, uh, sessions so the person can go through life and you and the therapist can help them remember and integrate those insights into their life if they want them.

[00:48:10] Stephanie: I'm gonna throw some CS Lewis at you and then we'll finally get to Liza. Then we'll [00:48:15] take a little break and then after the break I'm gonna give people room to respond to each other. 'cause I've sort of maintained control and had a little individual dialogue with everyone. I want you guys to be able to talk to each other.

[00:48:25] Stephanie: But, um, on the CS Lewis front, um, his, his work has [00:48:30] been so helpful to me, uh, in my coming to the faith and, um, and I guess having a sense of, of the, the richness of the faith really. Um, and you know, CS Lewis talks about how [00:48:45] if we have a, a hunger or thirst for something that can never fully be quenched in this world, maybe it's because we were made to experience that.

[00:48:54] Stephanie: And I've thought a lot about spiritual seeking experiences I had prior to becoming a [00:49:00] Christian, as well as just what I've found meaningful or intriguing in life. And I think. One thing most of those things had in common for me was that it was a pursuit of a heavenly state or more like, um, an experience of [00:49:15] Eden.

[00:49:15] Stephanie: Like a desire to return to this state of wholeness and unbroken ness, oneness and connection with nature and, and love and all things beautiful and good. And for me personally, reading, um, about near death experiences in, um, [00:49:30] oh, I'm forgetting his name. Um, and the books are, imagine Heaven and Imagine The God of Heaven.

[00:49:37] Stephanie: I'm sorry I'm forgetting the author's name right now. Um, but reading about, uh, how these near death experiences have things in common [00:49:45] with what scripture says about God and heaven has all been really beautiful. So for me, and maybe it's, maybe it's my feminine nature, beauty really speaks to my, um, sense of awe and reverence for the divine.

[00:49:59] Stephanie: And so [00:50:00] when I heard you talking about taking psychedelics at music festivals, I thought about that as sort of falling into this category of seeking Eden or seeking heaven, seeking paradise, seeking oneness. And maybe [00:50:15] that's been done by many people in many ways that miss the mark. And isn't that sort of the nature of human beings?

[00:50:20] Stephanie: But I guess I'm just wondering if you see potential positives as well as negatives. 'cause I'm looking at the pros and cons of what is it that we [00:50:30] learn when we seek God? In these sort of mistaken ways when we seek us an experience of oneness, unity, peace, love, or bliss. Um, I, I guess it's my, my thought that, uh, because we know that God [00:50:45] works all things together for good and, and because of what I'm learning about sanctification, that as much as these moments of spiritual seeking prior to becoming Christians can be, in one sense, they can be mourned as wasted time, [00:51:00] but in another, they can all become sort of part of our story of finding our way to Christ.

[00:51:05] Stephanie: And CS Lewis said something really beautiful along those lines too, that if you were heading, or maybe it, was it CS Lewis or was it these pastors who were interpreting [00:51:15] CS Lewis said something about if, basically if you're heading toward hell with your actions on this earth, that your time and on earth would've been increasingly hellish.

[00:51:23] Stephanie: But if you're heading toward God and toward heaven, then even the parts where you were the furthest from God [00:51:30] in your time on earth end up becoming redeemed, becoming sort of the, the footstool of heaven. I just think that's such a beautiful and optimistic perspective. And so when you talk about taking psychedelics at music festivals, I think there's a lot of spiritual seekers, um, looking for [00:51:45] God.

[00:51:46] Stephanie: And, uh, you know, doing it without God, right? And that's, that's the mistake. Uh, but I wonder how much of that experience can be redeemed for good. And I think about, for example, my favorite musician, Nick Moy, who his background is [00:52:00] ayahuasca and music festivals and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, picking and choosing his, you know, spiritual, uh, buffet of whatever he wanted.

[00:52:09] Stephanie: And then realizing, this is silly. I, I'm doing all this, all these different types of worship and I don't know, God. And [00:52:15] he, he became a Christian. And so it's like, again, there's that sort of redemptive quality that I love to that story. And I just wanted to put that spin on it and let you respond.

[00:52:24] daniel: That's a very interesting story.

[00:52:25] daniel: And I see the, I, I see the, the, the emphasis on the [00:52:30] connection side of that and how that can help. And one of the things about at least psilocybin, I don't want to talk about the other psychedelics too much 'cause I don't really know about them that much. But one of the things about psilocybin is even in a microdose, you're not really able to focus as [00:52:45] much.

[00:52:45] daniel: 'cause the brain's a lot very interconnected. And it's a very dissociative drug. It's a de personal derealization type drug experience that you're, that you're, um, putting yourself under. And so the arbitrary or the randomness or [00:53:00] the, the unseen things that can happen when you open yourself up like that 'cause a big, a big part of what's happened.

[00:53:07] daniel: I'm sure. Um. Other people here can speak on this science part better than me. But, um, in an actual macro dose type of [00:53:15] psychedelic experience, your emotion and your memory really kind of trade like a hundred percent of information for a moment. That doesn't really happen that often in life. And that's why you'll see somebody that does it do them too close to each other, or, or, and it doesn't really have the [00:53:30] same effect.

[00:53:30] daniel: And that's 'cause that's not, there's not much that's happened between then. But, um, the same thing why I'm, why I said skeptic is a good idea and I said, uh, well I didn't know, I don't know if I said this, but I don't think it's to be feared, it's to be understood. And I like a very controlled, safe [00:53:45] setting where the person feels like they really have a good, uh, support therapist that's there for them or, or something like that is important because the brain is very, very, um, vulnerable at, in, in this, in this [00:54:00] state.

[00:54:00] daniel: And we, we saw that and, and you know, the declassified stuff from MK Ultra and, and, and up to Gateway. Um, and then somebody comes up and they're just a totally different person. Um, those vulnerabilities are real and they're there. And I [00:54:15] think that the same way we go through life in, in general, we have to discern, we have to make discernment.

[00:54:20] daniel: I don't think everybody's ready for or needs a psychedelic assisted therapy, but I, um, when it comes to the random things that [00:54:30] can occur at a dance festival or a local party, or even just camping in the woods with your buddies or something, um, those. There is not, it's not a controlled environment. You do not know what's gonna be put into your head in that setting.

[00:54:44] daniel: [00:54:45] So

[00:54:45] Stephanie: I didn't say it was wise. I didn't say it was wise.

[00:54:51] daniel: I just, I was emphasizing it because yeah,

[00:54:53] Stephanie: I, I think, um, I know I'm just, I'm just thinking of redemption and sanctification and, and [00:55:00] how, how delightful it is when we have these moments in life where God shows us that thing you did back there where you got really lost or really hurt.

[00:55:10] Stephanie: Uh, I, I'm gonna work it together for good now. Like, it's, it's so beautiful when we have those [00:55:15] moments in our lives. And so I just, you know, to, to all the listeners who have had their share of psychedelics at music festivals, I guess I just wanna plant that little seed, like maybe you were looking for God, and uh, and you know, if you're also on your way to the Christian faith or new to [00:55:30] it, like me, this can be part of your story, right?

[00:55:33] Stephanie: Oh, I was mistaken. I was looking for you in the wrong places. I tried to go in the side door as one of you said, right? I was trying to find the other gate to heaven, you know, the secret gate where, uh, you, you bypass Jesus. And I'm sorry, Lord, I, I made a [00:55:45] mistake, right? Um. Okay, so finally gonna give Liza a chance to speak.

[00:55:50] Stephanie: Uh, this is not an anti-woman bias, by the way. I am just going in order from lowest to highest on the scale. We're gonna let Liza speak why [00:56:00] she is a seven. Then we'll take a break and we'll have some cross dialogue. Liza, thank you for your patience. Tell us why you're a seven.

[00:56:06] louie: Yeah, it's really interesting.

[00:56:07] louie: So, I, I'm a a seven from a scientific perspective, not necessarily from a faith perspective. So [00:56:15] at the Catholic Church, which I kind of recently came back to, I was, uh, you know, raised a Catholic, but then sort of wandered off from, took the scenic route through life and then wandered my way back. But, um, the Catholic church really doesn't, um, see a, a [00:56:30] conflict between faith and reason as long as that is in pursuit of the truth.

[00:56:36] louie: So science, um, is really something that the Catholic Church is, um, uh, supportive of. Um, and in fact, in the catechism, [00:56:45] um, it says that faith can't contradict science as long as science is truth, right? This, if, if, if the goal is the pursuit of the truth, then um, there is a natural [00:57:00] relationship between there.

[00:57:00] louie: And so, I mean, you hear about fake news all the time, fake science all the time and things like that, that that's, and, and you hear the claim that, um, often that Christians. Aren't very scientifically oriented, which I think is [00:57:15] not true. Um, and so my particular brand of Catholic or uh, Christianity, Catholicism, it's very, very supportive of science.

[00:57:22] louie: Now, going all the way back to, um, this, the book that you sent us the other day, [00:57:30] and going back all the way back to the 16 hundreds, um, my particular interest in, uh, psychedelics actually starts with the Salem Witch trials. So very much like we're talking about, uh, with, um, you know, uh, [00:57:45] communicating with other, other worlds and things like that.

[00:57:48] louie: Um, I think this is kind of an interesting story. So there is some thought that the girls from the Salem Witch trial, so in 1692, the story is, [00:58:00] um, several girls started having hallucinations and seizures and things like that and started behaving very bizarrely. And this prompted a panic, um, in Salem that there had been a witch that had cast a [00:58:15] spell on these girls.

[00:58:16] louie: Um, and unfortunately 200 people went to trial and 20 people were executed because of the claims of these very bizarre behavior that these girls were having. Some people think that the [00:58:30] girls from the same witch trials had gotten. A hold of contaminated, contaminated bread. Bread that had ergot in it. So ergot is a fungal infection of crops.

[00:58:41] louie: Um, and when there used to be very large outbreaks of [00:58:45] Ergotism, um, in the middle ages throughout Europe, so uh, in around 940,000 people died in France because of Ergotism. And so what Ergot does is it does two different things. Um, it [00:59:00] causes, uh, vasospasms, so it cuts off the blood supply to your hands and your feet and you can wind up losing limbs with it.

[00:59:07] louie: You can have miscarriages because of it. And this is with, and it lives livestock. And people can have this, this problem, [00:59:15] um, when they're fed bad grain or make bread with bread, bad grain. Um, so huge outbreaks in the Middle Ages. It was called St. Anthony's fire. And, um. There were, if you look at the icons of [00:59:30] Saint Anthony, um, you can often see little hands and feet hanging off of them because, uh, he was the patron saint of this particular malady because a man and his son got tism and wound up [00:59:45] praying to his relics and recovered.

[00:59:46] louie: So they started this whole movement, um, and a whole, uh, history of church building to St. Anthony for this particular problem. Um, and, and, uh, very, very, uh, significant problem. Anyway, people also would have [01:00:00] these wild, uh, vivid hallucinations and seizures. Um, and so fast forward a little bit, um, during the Salem Witch Trials, a very smart Puritan by the name of Cotton Mather, [01:00:15] um, who was hugely scientific.

[01:00:19] louie: Um, he had, uh, been involved with variation in Boston, cut down the smallpox because which was a precursor to vaccination and cut down the incidences of [01:00:30] smallpox from 14 mor mortality from 14% to 2%. Very, very involved also with, um, uh, uh, agronomy. Uh, some of his literature was actually reviewed in, uh, nature in 1934 centuries later.

[01:00:44] louie: That's how smart this guy [01:00:45] was. Cotton Mather was a very brilliant, uh, scientist, but also very religious. Um, and he was one of the judges in the Salem Witch Trials. So the thought is for some people that Ergotism, uh, was related [01:01:00] to what happened with these girls. Um, and they described these vivid hallucinations and things like that.

[01:01:06] louie: Now, fast forward to the 20th century when people really started understanding the biochemistry [01:01:15] and, uh, the, the, uh, physiology of what happens when people get ergot. Um, they were able to tease out different components, it different chemicals called alkaloids [01:01:30] in this fungal infection that had different therapeutic effects.

[01:01:35] louie: Um, so the first thing that they discovered was something called Ergon. And Ergon was critical for, um, [01:01:45] preventing postpartum hemorrhage. So one of the leading causes of death in women is hemorrhaging after having babies. And this became really important, uh, to, uh, prevent that from happening. So what [01:02:00] scientists did was they decided to take different alkaloids, different chemicals that were pre created by this particular fungal infection and test them for possible therapeutic effects.

[01:02:12] louie: So the, the Ergon mean [01:02:15] doesn't cause hallucinations or anything like that, and became lifesaving for women. Um. Albert Hoffman in 1939 who was a, uh, uh, a scientist at Sandoz Labs, um, discovered. [01:02:30] LSD the natural, uh, the natural kind of LSD is made by ergot and it's called, uh, liturgic acid. Um, and so he discovered LSD and inadvertently dropped some on [01:02:45] his fingers.

[01:02:46] louie: During a lab experiment in 1943, he had put it on his shelf in 1939 and, and then wound up having these vivid kind of hallucinations and thought, wow, that's weird. And so on [01:03:00] April 19th, 1943, he dropped a mega dose of 250 micrograms on himself. He experimented on himself and then wound up riding his bicycle home.

[01:03:11] louie: To, um, it, to [01:03:15] write down what was going on. He had a doctor come and the doctor looked at him and said, oh, he's vividly hallucinating. He's, his vital signs are normal. His everything's normal on his exam, except for his eyes are widely dilated. [01:03:30] And once he realized that he wasn't going to die, um, he found that the, um, experience was really, um, incredible.

[01:03:38] louie: And this is what launched, along with several other things, the history's fascinating, the, the hippie movement. Now, [01:03:45] I am not of the persuasion that we should be having lots of people hallucinating right, left and center. I think that that's actually detrimental and I'm not of the persuasion that we should be wandering down to the Amazon rainforest.

[01:03:58] louie: Um, and doing [01:04:00] ayahuasca in the pursuit of trying to discover ourselves or rectify our problems. What I am of the persuasion of is that there are, um, if you can, uh, tweak. These certain chemistries [01:04:15] that are really, really important in mood. Um, and maybe not be doing it in order to, uh, you know, enter another realm or use it as a portal for communicating to the, however you [01:04:30] wanna do it, shamanically or anything like that.

[01:04:32] louie: I'm of the persuasion that if you can use these things therapeutically to treat refractory depression, um, uh, that that's beneficial. And in fact, um, the [01:04:45] commonest drug that we use for depression, um, really affects the serotonin system. So serotonin is a neurotransmitter, um, which is really important for mood.

[01:04:56] louie: Um, and if you're serotonin isn't either [01:05:00] active enough or in a high enough concentration in your brain, you can wind up having, um, pretty profound depressions. That's why people use, uh, drugs like SSRIs, um, to a s selective serotonin retype take [01:05:15] inhibitors. So more serotonin is floating around in the brain.

[01:05:18] louie: So I, and these particular, uh, chemistries that you find in ayahuasca and LSD and psilocybin work on that system in the brain. And so if you could [01:05:30] take away the hallucinations, 'cause I do think that the hallucinations, if you have a whole group of people running around hallucinating, there are a lot of side effects that I, I, I'm not particularly.

[01:05:40] louie: Uh, interested in having people undergo, or, and, and [01:05:45] I think you can, you've gotta be careful, um, as Daniel was saying, um, uh, how you administer these things. But I think that the mechanism of action, if it's used correctly, could provide a good, uh, solution to [01:06:00] very severe depression. And it's most interesting is that, um, ayahuasca.

[01:06:05] louie: Which is made up of a vine and a leaf. Um, the, the, the leaf has the DMT in it and the vine has something called an [01:06:15] mono monoamine oxidase inhibit, which is a big, fancy word for, um, a, a, a, uh, a chemical that we have used, um, for refractory depression in the past.

[01:06:26] Stephanie: So thinking about therapeutic uses, [01:06:30] Liza, um, microdosing comes to mind.

[01:06:33] Stephanie: I once went to a workshop in Portland where there were speakers talking about their sort of microdosing for depression protocol. And we know that, um, when [01:06:45] microdosing psilocybin that this is something that affects serotonin. And it's my understanding that, uh, when the mind is of when the brain is affected by, uh, psilocybin, there is a, a flood of serotonin and a lot more connection [01:07:00] happening across different regions of the brain that don't normally communicate as much, uh, that neuroplasticity is enhanced.

[01:07:07] Stephanie: And, and I, I think about this in conjunction with a, an [01:07:15] animation, I will drop into the show notes. And, uh, I wish I could share that all with you right now. Maybe I'll, I'll share it on the break. Uh, but it's an animation from Dr. Nicholas Fabiano that shows, uh, his model of energy landscapes in the brain.[01:07:30]

[01:07:30] Stephanie: And so he depicts that a normal healthy brain has these sort of peaks and valleys where energy can flow. In other words, the values might be where our attention focuses on one thing for a moment, but then it eventually wanders to other [01:07:45] things. He depicts schizophrenia on one side of that, where it's flattened.

[01:07:48] Stephanie: So the, the mind is just wandering all over the place. It's connecting things that don't need to be connected and not able to focus on, on any one thing. And any of us who've worked with, you know, people with psychosis have seen that process [01:08:00] in action. And he depicts obsessive compulsive disorder is on the other side with these deeper valleys where the thought process gets stuck.

[01:08:07] Stephanie: So, obsessions, compulsions, ruminations. It's my understanding that, uh, something like psilocybin, if we're just looking at [01:08:15] therapeutic uses and the research and not looking at, um, the spiritual aspect at all, um, that in that context it might be, you know, contraindicated in someone with psychotic tendencies and potentially more indicated in someone with that more [01:08:30] obsessive compulsive pattern.

[01:08:31] Stephanie: Uh, where neuroplasticity would, would be helpful in that case. In other words, a loosening of connections. So. Um, just wanted to kind of throw that out there. Curious if you are more interested in the therapeutic uses of something like [01:08:45] psilocybin, microdosing, or what, uh, context you're most interested in.

[01:08:50] liza: Yeah, I'm just interested in it, just in, in the studies that I've looked at. Now, remember, they're not very good studies out there, um, but in, and there are lots of anecdotal [01:09:00] data out there and, and anecdotes don't make a randomized double blind controlled study. Right. So I think we have to be careful about overstating the, uh, findings of some studies.

[01:09:10] liza: I think Cam and I looked at a study a couple weeks ago, um, and they were saying there [01:09:15] was a 75% reduction in refractory depression or, and, and there were 18 people in the study. So that, that doesn't count. Right. So I, but I think I, I think I'm really interested in the, the biochemistry [01:09:30] of it, um, and the way serotonin works in the brain.

[01:09:34] liza: You're, you're absolutely right. It, the reason why we can have a focused conversation is because even though we're being flooded with lots of different sensory [01:09:45] inputs from sight and sound and things like that, you are able to, you're able to. Restrict your focus, um, on what you're doing at the moment and, and sort of let those [01:10:00] things settle down, right?

[01:10:01] liza: That you, you that, but when that goes away, when you're doing something like LSD or psilocybin and things like that, now all of a sudden you're flooded with all of that sensory input that you can normally focus through. And so I think that that's a very [01:10:15] interesting, um, function of the brain. And, um, I also think that, that, that can be helpful, um, in some capacity instead of.

[01:10:24] liza: Getting so like focused on, you know, all these different things coming in and being paralyzed [01:10:30] to buy all of this different input.

[01:10:32] Stephanie: All right, so now everyone has at least gotten a chance to say something and we're going to take a break, collect our thoughts, and when we return, we'll have an open conversation where people can respond to the points that one another [01:10:45] have brought up.

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[01:11:32] Stephanie: So many ideas have been put on the table and I'm curious who is feeling the most burning desire to respond to something that's been said.

[01:11:40] louie: I'm burning a little bit, but it's more, uh, something you [01:11:45] had mentioned Stephanie, about. Uh, the existence or the of, of the experiences before a person comes to Christ.

[01:11:53] louie: And it's hearing people's stories about the twists and turns of their [01:12:00] lives and how we find that God can take just incredible journeys and think, how did you get back? But he, he redeems, and this is the, the message of the gospel that is such good news [01:12:15] is God redeems and he restores and he heals and he pursues and he loves and he cares for, and he speaks the language we speak.

[01:12:24] louie: He, he speaks our hearts native language. And, uh, I have had so many conversations with, [01:12:30] with people who at 1.1 woman she'd, uh, smoke copious amounts of weed and take edibles at the same time and just be on. Just lit. And that's where she opened up enough to talk to [01:12:45] God. But he didn't leave her there. He brought her from that.

[01:12:48] louie: And it became a thing where it, it's a part of her story, but with, even with, with the seekers, there comes a point where we, we crossed from darkness to light. We cross from [01:13:00] death to life. And I don't think it's a, just a crisis declaration every time. I think at times there's people who I, I believe now, and I don't know when I started really, but I just, I am identifying more and more within the family and recognizing that [01:13:15] within the family as we're looking at this particular topic, it's, there's things that had maybe had been a part of the journey before that maybe God would instruct us.

[01:13:24] louie: Don't have anything to do with those things anymore. I'm your journey now. Come through, come through me, you, [01:13:30] however you found me on that man Mandering road. Come through me now.

[01:13:33] Stephanie: Yes. Thank you so much. I mean, this is truly one of the most appealing parts of Christianity to me. And it's, it's part of how I found my way here was through the trials and tribulations that I've been through, including many [01:13:45] that my long-term listeners have watched me go through, uh, over the course of this podcast the past few years.

[01:13:49] Stephanie: And when I'm tested to identify my values, uh, it's, it's led me to Christ. And uh, and I've also, even prior to [01:14:00] that, had so many moments in my life, especially, um. In counseling. And now in the coaching I do specifically with parents of trans identified youth. I've just had so many moments where the darkest places that I ever went, uh, when I was a [01:14:15] lost young person, have, uh, been, been used for good.

[01:14:18] Stephanie: You know, it's like I, I know what it's like to be there. Let me help you understand your child now so you can help them. And so I, I love Christ being our, our redeemer and savior. And I, I, I love, uh, everything being [01:14:30] worked together for good. Um, so thank you so much for bringing that back up. 'cause it's, it's a really big part of faith for me.

[01:14:36] louie: Yeah. I also identified a lot with Cam. I'm a, I'm a pastor's kid. Grew up in the church. My wife did the exact same. We've had varied experiences in [01:14:45] that, but uh, we have seen how the sausage is made and it's not something that you want to, uh, it, it, it definitely does not represent Christ, that's for sure.

[01:14:57] cam: The, if, if I can add just one thing, just to be [01:15:00] clear. The, the Bible says, Jesus says this, I'm here for the sick. Right. I'm near, I'm here for the people that need help, which of course is all of us. That's, that's the point. So I'm not, I'm not implying that the church is full of wicked rotten people who don't mean what they [01:15:15] say and don't live out their faith.

[01:15:16] cam: I, I think by and large, most Christians are trying to do, um, the right thing. They're trying to live faithfully. But I think there are instances where there are a lot of bad things that are happening. And so that's what I was describing is like, I wasn't [01:15:30] trying to badmouth anybody. I just wanna be. Clear about that.

[01:15:33] Stephanie: Well, and if I can add that some, something that helps me when I start thinking along those lines is if I find this person sinful or bothersome [01:15:45] as they're walking the Christian path, just imagine how much more annoying they would've been if they weren't right. Like, we don't know what kind of chaos God has saved someone from.

[01:15:55] Stephanie: I mean, yeah, maybe this person's being a little pompous or something like that, [01:16:00] but, uh, God only knows what life had in store for that person if they didn't choose Jesus.

[01:16:07] cam: Can I, I wanted to bring up one other thing that you had mentioned. CS Lewis, um, and his book, the Great Divorce, which I think you've read too.[01:16:15]

[01:16:15] cam: It's, it's one of my favorites and one of the characters in that book, well, the premise is there's a group of people that take a bus ride from hell to heaven. And one of the characters, uh, who takes that trip is a, a progressive pastor. He is a liberal Christian. And [01:16:30] the, the joke of it is he's very eager to get back to hell so he can do his Bible study because, um, the, the, the idea that they're focusing on is that if Jesus had lived longer instead of being crucified, he would've been more enlightened and he would've been [01:16:45] even more loving than he was.

[01:16:46] cam: Right. And so that's the joke of it, right? The guy has a chance to go to heaven. He is like, no, I can't, I can't be here. I gotta go to my Bible study. We're gonna talk about how, how much more progressive Jesus would've been. And it's so funny 'cause I think, and no, not anyone in [01:17:00] this conversation, but I think.

[01:17:01] cam: Culturally, this is the kind of, um, the kind of silliness that we're flirting with, with people making these really strained theological arguments for, for psychedelic use or whatever their, whatever their issue is, right? Whether it's sexuality or [01:17:15] something else, right? We, we get these very, they're very sophisticated arguments, but ultimately they're wrong.

[01:17:22] cam: And I think that's sort of the motivation where, where it sounds very compelling, but ultimately it's, it's, it's nonsense. And I [01:17:30] think that's a great example since you brought up CS Lewis of him critiquing that sort of a mindset. I think that's a problem when we talk about any of these issues, really.

[01:17:38] liza: I also think that when you lose sight of, once again going back to the catechism of the Catholic church, [01:17:45] um, you know, the science is about how you get there.

[01:17:48] liza: The, the religion is about why you get there. And when you lose sight of that and it becomes entirely just how, um, you lose some pretty important, um, [01:18:00] guardrails in terms of decision making, uh, about different therapeutic things that you do. So, um, I. The premise in medicine is first do no harm. Um, and I think that that needs to, and some, [01:18:15] some, uh, traditional classic ethics and morality need to be reinjected into the practice of medicine because I'm very nervous about where it has gone, um, in the past 10 years [01:18:30] especially.

[01:18:30] liza: Um, and. I think, and maybe we can touch a little bit on harm reduction. Um, I think that the evidence that we have garnered over the past two decades about harm reduction techniques [01:18:45] show clearly that what what we've been practicing has not worked and it has harmed a lot of people. And so I don't want to say that I, once again, I don't wanna have, and Cam said this in the, our podcast the other day, [01:19:00] um, we, we don't wanna use a medical reason to have people who wanna just use a drug, um, be leaning on that reason to get that drug legalized and things like that, [01:19:15] because that's when things go off the rail.

[01:19:16] liza: And, and I think we've seen this in the opioid crisis. I think we've seen this in the, in the, um, in the cannabis, uh, situation. I think we're seeing lots of things that we prefer not to see. Um, and, but, you know, people [01:19:30] used medical reasons, medical claims, and then before you know it, it's metastasized into the general public.

[01:19:36] liza: Um, and I think that that's problematic.

[01:19:39] Stephanie: I'd love for someone to define harm reduction For listeners who aren't familiar with this [01:19:45] topic.

[01:19:45] louie: Go ahead, Kim.

[01:19:46] cam: No, you're the doctor. Why don't we have the toxicologist define it? I think that's probably wise.

[01:19:50] liza: So it's harm reduction on the face of it sounds like a good thing.

[01:19:53] liza: Right. So when people abuse drugs, um, they wind up, uh, with a lot of [01:20:00] different complications, especially if they're using IV drugs, right? They can get infections in their heart valves. They can get big, huge abscesses. They can lose limbs. They're, they're all sorts of different complications that you can have when you're, um, using [01:20:15] drugs.

[01:20:15] liza: So the theory was, um, and this is really mostly about opiates just in general. So the theory was that if you did needle exchanges, if you did, um, you know, gave people replacement things, replacement [01:20:30] drugs, uh, and a variety of different options, um, you would decrease the risk of infection. You would decrease the risk of hepatitis.

[01:20:38] liza: You would re decrease the re risk of HIV, um, and you would be helping these people until they [01:20:45] became ready to come and. For addiction treatment, um, you'd be helping them and when they were ready, they'd come to your clinic and you could treat them for their addiction. Um, that has not panned out that well.

[01:20:57] liza: Um, what we've seen is we've seen an [01:21:00] explosion in the homeless population when people have gone to the, the population and have said, um, well, do you wanna go to a shelter? They don't wanna go to a shelter. 'cause they can't use drugs in that. So it, it's, it's the be, you know, [01:21:15] the most well intended, uh, you know, ideas wound up having a really negative effect.

[01:21:20] liza: And in fact they, um, I'll never forget. So when you are a physician, you have to do maintenance of certification. So you need to, um, take, uh, [01:21:30] continuous tests and things like that to make sure that you're up to date on the latest news. And one of the last ones I took was, um, when they were looking at how to reduce the prescription.

[01:21:42] liza: Drugs that, that doctors [01:21:45] were giving to patients in the emergency room. And they had a protocol coming out of one of the hospitals in, in Washington state. Um, and after you did all of this stuff on the protocol, it turned out that doctors were prescribing two less pills, two [01:22:00] patients, um, which really is not gonna be doing I impactful at all.

[01:22:04] liza: In the meantime, that same day that we were going over that article, uh, Oregon decriminalized the use of heroin and it backfired spectacularly over the [01:22:15] next, uh, you know, couple of years and they eventually had to, you know, walk that back. But harm reduction on the face of it sounds like it's gonna be, um, empathetic.

[01:22:26] liza: Uh, but I think this is suicidal empathy. Um, and I don't wanna [01:22:30] see that happen with psychedelics because there are definite complications with psychedelics as well.

[01:22:35] Stephanie: This is a really important angle and one question I wanna pause it to all of you is, is harm reduction Christian? Um, [01:22:45] in my opinion. Harm reduction has gotten really out of hand.

[01:22:50] Stephanie: Um, I agree with your term suicidal empathy here and in Portland, Oregon, there are people constantly just hovering on the brink of death. [01:23:00] They're, they're using fentanyl and meth out in the streets. It's 40 degrees outside. They're, you know, co probably covered in their own waste products. And there are these teams of so-called harm reduction people [01:23:15] going around and giving them, you know, clean supplies to keep using with, as you say, to prevent the transmission of diseases.

[01:23:23] Stephanie: Well, is it kind and compassionate to keep people hovering on the brink of death? And what's the case to be made for allowing people [01:23:30] to hit bottom? Because we do know that there are recovering addicts who've been saved by the grace of God and said, you know, if I hadn't ended up in jail that night and been forced to detox because I couldn't access drugs from jail, uh, I [01:23:45] would probably be dead by now.

[01:23:46] cam: Can I add a, just a couple of things. When we talk about harm reduction and, and the supposed empathy that it's built on, I wanna know who the empathy is for. Is it for the child of the addict? You know, is it for, is it [01:24:00] for the school children who are on a playground now that's strewn with used needles?

[01:24:05] cam: And, and the answer of course is, is no. Right. It's, it's empathetic in the sense that it's enabling drug use. Right. And I. Not to sound cynical, I think this is used as a weapon [01:24:15] against normal people, right? Because most people, especially within Christianity, they wanna be kind and they wanna be loving and they wanna meet people where they're at, right?

[01:24:24] cam: So that sort of rhetoric is employed against us. And, and that's the problem I have with it. And if [01:24:30] you read the harm reduction literature, like when you have harm reduction advocates talking amongst themselves in an academic setting, they will just very plainly say, you know, we need to incorporate the user's pleasure as we're talking [01:24:45] about treating these people.

[01:24:46] cam: Right? So that's, and and we talked about this in our chat a little bit, but this is one of my problems is we take recreational use and then we medicalize it, right? We met, we make the fact that people wanna use it sort of a metric by how we judge whether the use is acceptable or [01:25:00] not, right? So we, we'll let people use it 'cause they want to, and then we'll, we'll create sort of a we'll put up bumpers, right?

[01:25:06] cam: We'll, we'll we'll set up a tent and we'll call it a safe injection site and there'll be a medical professional there who can administer naloxone and Right. [01:25:15] We make this very official and medical and s sciencey and then it'll all be great. Right? But when you look at the studies, and Liza was sort of talking about this, um, you get people who say, Hey, thank you so much for this medical grade opioid and now I'm gonna go buy [01:25:30] some methamphetamine.

[01:25:31] cam: Right? Right. So it doesn't, it doesn't make their drug use safer because they're still polydrug users and most overdoses occur because people mix substances that you should not mix. That's ultimately what kills them. And so [01:25:45] that's the problem I have is that you get this sort of empathetic message, this message of empathy, and the results don't pan out the way they promise, but then the wheels are in motion, right?

[01:25:55] cam: You have this machine that's already operating, you have this lobby that's pushing [01:26:00] for, for drug legalization and normalization. And then normal people look around like they did an organ and they go, Hey, wait a minute. This is not what we signed up for. And they actually fully rescinded, um, that, that, uh, law that they put into effect.

[01:26:13] cam: And I don't think the [01:26:15] penalties are as harsh anymore, but I think if you're caught using drugs, now you have to go to treatment. So thi this is the problem is I think, not to use a cliche, but it sort of a Trojan horse that that's being employed here. And that's my concern with the psychedelic issue too.

[01:26:29] liza: I [01:26:30] think that this is a great form 'cause uh, so there's, it's so many physicians are hearing just sort of from their colleague physicians about the best ways to manage things and that, you know, this is the way, right? Um, and you don't, they don't hear enough from the [01:26:45] general public or people from other disciplines that can help inform, um, their perspective.

[01:26:52] liza: Um, and if you take an oath that, and the underlying premise of that oath, it's first you no harm. Um, it's really important to understand that [01:27:00] harm isn't just, you know. It doesn't just come from a, a, a, a particular perspective. Uh, you really should be listening to people who have, you know, backgrounds in [01:27:15] ethics and religion and things like that.

[01:27:16] liza: And we've really lost sight, I think, of how important, um, faith and ethics are to our profession. And I think it's really unfortunate because I feel like, um, a lot of people have lost faith [01:27:30] in our profession. They, they, they, uh, you know, physicians are really, uh, under a lot of stress from a whole lot of different, um, perspectives.

[01:27:38] liza: But I think the profound distrust that people have, um, in our profession and [01:27:45] especially in academic medicine right now, um, is really discouraging. And I think it's really important for them not to, to get out of their echo chambers and listen to people who have different perspectives.

[01:27:55] liza: And you had asked, uh, Stephanie about, is harm reduction Christian?[01:28:00]

[01:28:00] liza: And I would say, no, it's not. Uh, one of the main things that we are to be doing on this planet is to be, uh, growing in discipleship, be making disciples. And Ephesians four goes into detail about, you know, God gave the [01:28:15] offices of pastor prophet, apostle teacher, you know, evangelist for this express purpose of building up the church.

[01:28:21] liza: But the key element that is building people up to full maturity as, as measured in Christ is speaking the truth in love. And [01:28:30] while harm reduction does play upon that, uh, empathy that especially often comes off more as virtue signaling for those doing it. Uh, it does not speak the truth. It does not allow the individual to experience the full consequences of [01:28:45] the choices.

[01:28:45] liza: And I do not in any way, uh, say that's to be done without empathy. 'cause speaking the truth and love is, is hard. It, it requires something and it requires a long-term desire and commitment to the people that you're [01:29:00] speaking the truth to, to desire God's best, uh, as he would reveal that. But it doesn't harm reduction does not help that.

[01:29:07] liza: And therefore, it isn't a question,

[01:29:09] Stephanie: it seems like. We have some alignment here on harm reduction when it comes to [01:29:15] the really life-threatening drugs that in some ways were prolonging people's sin and worsening the consequences they may face down the line by not allowing them to hit bottom sooner. I find myself curious where this perspective [01:29:30] overlaps with your perspectives on harm reduction for psychedelics and where it doesn't, because harm reduction when it comes to psychedelics is a much different thing.

[01:29:36] Stephanie: It's not about saving people from death or from hepatitis B. Um, it's, uh, psychedelic harm reduction, as I understand. It [01:29:45] has more to do with the fact that, uh, well I've actually worked in psychedelic harm reduction, so I volunteered at a festival, uh, years ago in their sort of psychedelic harm reduction tent.

[01:29:56] Stephanie: It was a place that people could go if they were in crisis and talk to a safe [01:30:00] person. Um, it was really cold in there, so I actually don't think that helped, but, um, but I remember sitting with a woman who was having a bad acid trip. Who just needed to keep repeating her [01:30:15] name over and over to remind herself who she was.

[01:30:18] Stephanie: And she kept saying, everything is made of snakes. And I don't know if what we did was helpful or not. I really don't. Um, so thinking about psychedelic harm, reduction in the sense that people are in a [01:30:30] very vulnerable state when they're in psychedelics. And if there is someone during that experience or afterward who can help them sort of make sense of things, preserve their sanity, find their way to safety, that, [01:30:45] you know, we're taking what could be a vulnerable moment that could lead to a psychotic break or prolonged panic attacks, or hallucinogen persisting disorder, something like that, and making it better.

[01:30:55] Stephanie: And so I, I guess I'm wondering what you all have to say about the similarities and differences in your [01:31:00] beliefs on harm reduction in the one versus the other.

[01:31:02] daniel: I just keep catching this funny thing that ha has happened. It's not us, obviously, but, uh, harm reduction. It's just a play on words. It's not actually harm reduction, is it gender affirming care?

[01:31:13] daniel: It's kind of actually the opposite. [01:31:15] And these words are often used in, in, in this way. And, and so I think about we, we, we talked about, uh, what was recently just said too was like skipping the consequences of something. Um, I [01:31:30] like, like logic has to be applied across the border or it's, or it's not sound and it's not valid.

[01:31:34] daniel: So skipping the pain of childbirth comes to mind. Um. I, I kind of view science as a, [01:31:45] obviously it's not to be relied upon more than my, more than my faith, right? But I view science as the, the discovery of God's creation, not something that opposes it. And no different than a firearm sitting on a table. If you don't touch it, it doesn't do anything bad.[01:32:00]

[01:32:00] daniel: Uh, the same thing can apply to psychedelics. Same thing can apply to science at large. Um, and then, so back to harm reduction to keep us on that topic. Psychotropics are often, it's like a, it's really kind of a [01:32:15] bandaid for the most part. You have this emotional dysregulation of some sort. Let me give you this psychotropic drug, essentially, SSRIs, SNRs, et cetera, right?

[01:32:25] daniel: Let me give you the psychotropic drug that's gonna go straight to your forehead and help [01:32:30] you balance those neurons, and there's no meaning behind it. So we often, we, we will get superficial results if we take superficial measures for things. And I use some psychotropics. Uh, so I'm not like completely against them.

[01:32:42] daniel: I understand there's specific situations, and I [01:32:45] wouldn't talk, I wouldn't try to tell anybody to look anywhere different, talk to their psychiatrist or their, uh, psychiatric nurse or their, um, medical doctor. But psychedelics doesn't fully sit into the psychotropic medication [01:33:00] field. It's kind of a little bit below that, where metabolics sit, in my opinion.

[01:33:03] daniel: But, um, obviously, um, on this topic, exactly, I'm, I'm reaching the peak of my. What I feel like I can talk, what I can say. Uh, the last thing though is, [01:33:15] is about the, the skipping, the pain of childbirth. We, like, we talk about how, um, what, what thing we use scripture to kind of say, hold on, psychedelics are automatically all bad.

[01:33:28] daniel: And then I just think [01:33:30] about the ti the, the exceptions that we make for these things. If your child is dying, will you use one of these medications to save them that you wouldn't normally think is ethical or, or that you don't think is, is right for your, for our, [01:33:45] uh, interpretations of the Bible? And the answer almost always is yes, get some doctor over here and fix this kid up so we could keep him alive.

[01:33:52] daniel: Right. Um, so anyways, I just wanted to throw that out there.

[01:33:56] Stephanie: What would be an example, Daniel, of a situation where [01:34:00] a Christian would a, administer their child, a drug under a doctor supervision to save their life that would otherwise be against their faith?

[01:34:10] daniel: I don't know exactly because I, I don't hold that belief, but, but what we're, what we're [01:34:15] talking about is like substances that are naturally.

[01:34:18] daniel: Part of God's creation. They're not necessarily completely synthetic like MDMA. And then we're deciding when with our own interpretation. 'cause it doesn't say anywhere in the Bible that I know about specifically that [01:34:30] talks about psilocybin or, yes, it talks about sorcery of course, but it doesn't talk about specific substances.

[01:34:37] daniel: So we're kind of putting them all into a bag and then saying, Hey, these are all bad. And I do think that the bad things can happen from them. Absolutely. [01:34:45] But Al also, if, how are they being used the same way if you set a firearm on the table and does it, does it do anything wrong? The same way, if you take too much like there's an overdose for water, there's an overdose amount for water, there's actually no known [01:35:00] overdose amount for psilocybin.

[01:35:01] Stephanie: Do you guys see a connection between drugs like psilocybin and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

[01:35:10] louie: I've heard that discussion. Uh, I have a couple of podcasts that I [01:35:15] really enjoy and that was one of the thoughts is that it was introduced as that and it was something that they were, uh, Adam and Eve specifically were instructed to avoid it because they were only to go through God the um.

[01:35:28] louie: Serpent presents [01:35:30] himself as such a way, did God really say, did he really say this? He just, he's just trying to keep you from an experience that, uh, he doesn't want you to be like him. And I have heard that. I've heard, you know, it's, it's really intriguing to me, uh, because [01:35:45] ultimately there was nothing in the garden that was wrong or bad.

[01:35:48] louie: Everything that had been made was good, but there was specific instructions given that they were not to go through that. And yet they elevated themself from the created being perspective to, no, we can be [01:36:00] creators too, and chose to go down that road. So it wouldn't surprise me. Uh, and it's a really intriguing, uh, rabbit trail.

[01:36:07] daniel: I've seen that correlation too. Who could, who couldn't. If you read the Bible and you think about these little things that, that make you see other things and everything, um, from my [01:36:15] experience and I've, I've, I've used me psilocybin before. I don't practice it or anything like that. Um, I don't promote it necessarily in any non-clinical situation either.

[01:36:25] daniel: Um, I don't feel like I got any smarter, I don't feel like I got any [01:36:30] free knowledge. I felt like every single thing, and this is, it is not just me. This is something you'll, uh, you can read if you hear the anecdotal, which it's all anecdotal though, is, is the unfortunate part about the science on psilocybin.

[01:36:42] daniel: That's the real weakness. And with most psychology too, [01:36:45] in general. Um, but I felt like I was, if I saw something that wasn't there, it was probably. Some interconnection of my brain, I guess, with some of these other medi, some of these other psychedelics that I don't [01:37:00] know about, where they seem to really just blast off into space.

[01:37:03] daniel: I think about, one of the things I think about is how much matter can the human being perceived? It's about an equal amount as the emptiness of [01:37:15] space. From my understanding. It's a, it's not exactly, but it's a really extremely small amount of matter that we can see. So these things are there whether we see them or not.

[01:37:24] daniel: And, um, that, or at least that's what that tells me. Um, [01:37:30] so I, I don't, um, I don't feel like the, there was, there's any knowledge that comes from psychedelics other than from within. And most [01:37:45] of the times when people are talking about these things or they're, they're, they're, they're talking, they think that they're having an external influences when they're on psychedelics.

[01:37:53] daniel: It's actually. It kind of goes back to psychoanalytic theory in my opinion, but it's actually, it's actually from [01:38:00] within. It's their shadow themselves. Um, which needs help. Probably needs help being interpreted though.

[01:38:05] liza: That's interesting. I, one of the things that, one of the other names for psychedelics, um, and this actually applies to like ecstasy, um, as opposed to [01:38:15] LSD is in the Ogen, so finding the God within, and I think that a lot of times people can, like Cam was saying earlier, go look for God in all sorts of different places and think that they're finding it in some, or [01:38:30] finding something themselves, um, in, in some capacity.

[01:38:33] liza: Um, and, uh, I think that that can actually be the equivalent of the apple. Right?

[01:38:40] liza: And there's a, something that has been referenced as the, the naturally [01:38:45] occurring stuff that's out there. And even ayahuasca though it does that components of ayahuasca are natural. It requires a specific combination of a leaf and a vine.

[01:38:57] liza: And one of the [01:39:00] thought processes and one the discussions around, well, how did they come up with this? And well, you know, over a period of time, uh, experimentation, et cetera. I tend to lean more towards the involvement of outside intelligence, uh, [01:39:15] whether it be the fallen watchers, uh, referenced in, uh, Genesis or Daniel, uh, a little bit in, uh, especially in, in first Enoch, the apocryphal, or a pseudo apal book that was referenced many different times in scripture [01:39:30] where as a part of the exchange, there is an instruction on we, they, you know, basically what these watchers did is they exchanged knowledge and they exchange technology for specific, uh, things that they wanted.

[01:39:44] liza: And at the time, it [01:39:45] was to intermarry with humanity and to cr have their own, have their own children. And my my thought when it comes to the naturally occurring substances by themselves, you know, the, the leaf and the vine don't bring about the, the experience that they [01:40:00] get when they're combined. And my thought is that there is that, uh, exterior knowledge that was, was brought in and that that apart from God was a malevolent knowledge that, or malevolent beings that were initiating that.

[01:40:14] Stephanie: Wow. [01:40:15] So I had shared with you guys, I'm not sure if anyone listened to it, I'd given you a preview of my conversation with Chris Leg. So, um, by the time this episode comes out, that episode will also be available to listeners, but I shared it with you, uh, when it wasn't yet available. [01:40:30] And he had an interesting point about.

[01:40:32] Stephanie: Christians going wherever they might be needed, which kind of ties in to something Will Spencer said when I interviewed him about his journey to the faith he was at Burning Man, this was part of his story. [01:40:45] And uh, and there were Christians preaching the gospel at a Burning Man camp, creating a safe space for people.

[01:40:54] Stephanie: I'm sure many of the people who came to their place at Burning Man were on psychedelic [01:41:00] drugs and gravitated towards the safety and warmth coming from that group. Um, so for Will, that was an, a powerful experience. And he never said whether he happened to be on psychedelic drugs at the moment that he found that camp.

[01:41:14] Stephanie: Uh, but it was [01:41:15] a very influential moment for him. And here's, you know, this is Will talking. So he's completely against all psychedelics now, having used a lot of them before he became a Christian. Uh, so Chris like's perspective as a pastor and a licensed professional [01:41:30] counselor is, and I might be misquoting him, but basically why shouldn't Christians go anywhere that they might be needed?

[01:41:37] Stephanie: And so this raises an interesting question for Christians going into psychedelic quote unquote harm reduction [01:41:45] counseling. Right. And, and I think, um. Sorry, I can't remember if it was Cam or Daniel that made a very important point that these words don't mean what they sound like they mean. There's a lot of language manipulation going on in the present era, as I'm sure we all agree.

[01:41:57] Stephanie: I appreciate the connection to so-called gender affirming care. Right? [01:42:00] Sounds so good. Diversity, equity, inclusion, these things all sound so good. Uh, but as, as someone else reminded us, right? Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So, uh, things don't always mean what they profess themselves to be in their titles.

[01:42:13] Stephanie: But that being said, [01:42:15] what do you guys think about that idea? That if people are using psychedelics and if there is even something called psychedelic assisted therapy, why shouldn't Christians go there to meet people where they're at? Almost in a way [01:42:30] that parallels the fact that Jesus will meet us wherever we're at, including in some very strange places.

[01:42:36] liza: I don't have a problem with Christians going and meeting people where they are. Right? I, and you see that for, um, you know, wherever. [01:42:45] People have problems. Uh, you do find Christians show up. So I mean, um, I organized a relief mission to Haiti, uh, after the earthquake in 2010. And it was, there were Christians that had came and were everywhere.

[01:42:58] liza: Um, [01:43:00] really, uh, not just helping people get better, but that was a point they were helping people get better. They weren't necessarily reinforcing a, um, an untruth, right? So, uh, I think it's important for [01:43:15] Christians to meet people where they're at, but it's also important for Christians to stick to the truth whether or not, um, people like that.

[01:43:23] liza: And I think that's what Louis was referring to. Um, you have to make sure that you're not [01:43:30] creating more harm in the guise of Christianity. Now, in terms of harm reduction, earlier you were mentioning you had a question that was, should Christians be in a harm reduction setting? Um, I think absolutely they can be.

[01:43:42] liza: You mentioned that they were a burning man. [01:43:45] Um, and there used to be programs where there was something called dance safe where um, you could take people's. Psychedelic or their ecstasy to make sure that it didn't have contaminant in it that was gonna actually cause harm. I [01:44:00] don't necessarily have a problem with that, um, particular thing, but I think the overall message is that you should, that you may be reducing harm on that, that one level, but that's not stopping that person from [01:44:15] continuing this behavior.

[01:44:16] liza: So I, I am kind of on the fence about that kind of thing. Uh, I don't want people to get poisoned by, uh, you know, contamination or adulteration. There's sometimes intentional adult [01:44:30] adulteration of drugs that is, it can really harm people. And I've seen patients that have had a big problem with that. Um, you say that, we've said that, you know, LSD generally doesn't cause a problem, but I've seen somebody die, um, because [01:44:45] they had mixed LSD with another, um, ecstasy and they wound up with flu, serotonin syndrome and this young woman.

[01:44:54] liza: Um, so you, if you're mixing stuff, you can get into hot water pretty quickly. And so I think it's important to [01:45:00] tell the truth about that.

[01:45:01] Stephanie: I did know someone who, uh, died because he took LSD and jumped off a cliff thinking he could fly

[01:45:08] daniel: while there's no known overdose for psilocybin. I, I'd like to speak on that since I said that.

[01:45:13] daniel: While there's no known overdose amount for, [01:45:15] for psilocin, uh, that's known. Um. Absolutely there is a lot of potential for harm. Uh, the things someone might do if they take too much, um, the, the, the recovery time and, and how much they could lose themself. That's why, [01:45:30] uh, that's, that's, that's why earlier I said something about, I think it was Kim, I mentioned about s very skeptical is a good place to be with these things.

[01:45:38] daniel: They're, we have more research on lobotomies from the fifties than we do, than we do psychedelics. I don't think [01:45:45] it's something that needs to be feared. Maybe we will find out that, and in my opinion, could change in the future, which it 'cause it's not concrete. Um, I'm, um, I'm about the Bible more so than, um, than the science.

[01:45:57] daniel: But maybe we will [01:46:00] find out that these psychedelics are, are all difficult or are all, um, causing more difficult situations for people. We don't know it yet because it's been shunned from being, um, researched and there's a probably a lot of medicinal value in them that we [01:46:15] might be able to find without.

[01:46:17] daniel: Um, the talking to Unicorns part, uh, which I've never even gotten close to experiencing that and, and psilocybin, so I don't think that's the one for that. Anyways,

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[01:47:27] Stephanie: Podcasting simplified. What do you guys [01:47:30] think of Brian Johnson's latest stunt?

[01:47:32] cam: I'm not,

[01:47:33] liza: I'm not

[01:47:33] liza: aware

[01:47:33] liza: of it.

[01:47:35] Stephanie: Is nobody here familiar?

[01:47:37] cam: No familiar with it, yeah. Is this the live streaming thing?

[01:47:40] Stephanie: Yeah, so, oh,

[01:47:41] louie: okay.

[01:47:42] Stephanie: Okay. Quick context. Brian Johnson, the live [01:47:45] Forever guy. He's an ex Mormon. It sounds like he had, I don't know, from learning his story, it sounds like he had some kind of OCD and transferred that from Mormonism to, he described finding a relief [01:48:00] in guiding his choices entirely based on the science of how they affect his body.

[01:48:04] Stephanie: So he considers himself a walking science experiment. A lot of people say, well, that's not scientific. It's an N of one. There are people who are trying to discredit the data he comes up with or poke holes in it, which I think is [01:48:15] valid. Um, you know, my personal jury is out on how I feel about Brian Johnson in general, but he recently decided to do this psilocybin as longevity study on himself and live [01:48:30] streamed his second of three large dose ceremonies that he did.

[01:48:36] Stephanie: And I remember seeing the names of the, like the people in the lineup who were gonna be part of the livestream, all these celebrities in like the [01:48:45] transhumanist techno optimist space. And I remember thinking, I mean, here's what I tweeted about it. I said something like, look, I am not completely sold on the idea that psychedelics open a portal to allow demons in.

[01:48:58] Stephanie: But if I were [01:49:00] the devil and I were interested in using that potential portal, here's what I'd look for. I'd look for someone, uh, taking this time when they're in a completely fragile open state where their ego has been shattered, and, [01:49:15] and exposing that to the world without boundaries, and then having, you know, the, the hubris of having all these celebrities involved and all this ego and, and making it about trying to live forever, trying to play God like that would be very [01:49:30] appealing to me if I was the devil looking for a way to control someone.

[01:49:34] liza: Yeah, I think that, that, that's a newfangled thing, and it's coming outta places like Harvard, that, that it's, that there's a, there's a, uh, [01:49:45] celebrity, uh, kind of influencer that I, I, who will remain unnamed, uh, tweeted that he was, you know, really working hard on being able to live forever. And that this, this professor from Harvard was help helping him do [01:50:00] this.

[01:50:00] liza: And I just think that, that, uh, it, it, to me, there's, that's just so, first of all, we're mortal and, um, mortality is in my mind, not the be all end all. There, there are, it, it, it, and to [01:50:15] think that this is where you wanna spend the rest of eternity. It, it's, I think you're missing out on a lot. Right. And so, uh, I, I think that, that would, that, you know, there's so much suffering here.

[01:50:29] liza: And yes, [01:50:30] suffering sort of purifies people in some, in some capacity, but you know. It clinging to this life. Um, because, uh, you sort of think that this is, it, it, I one, one that's playing [01:50:45] God two. I think that that's also very misleading. If you're a scientist and you are promoting, uh, you know, ridiculous supplements and, and things that, and you are promising people that this [01:51:00] is gonna make them live forever, is I think, really destructive.

[01:51:04] Stephanie: Well, who wants to live forever here in these bodies?

[01:51:08] louie: Yeah. I think you touched on, well, you did touch on transhumanism and the idea of what Brian Johnson's doing really plays into the whole [01:51:15] God complex of we can ascend to this plane where we can, uh, make these decisions and we can make the changes. And even though, you know, we've been given a finite number of years on the planet, you can do this.

[01:51:27] louie: And, uh, revelation talks about there's gonna [01:51:30] come a time where those that do take the mark of the beast, uh, will long for death and not be able to die. And in some of the places I'm listening and people, I'm, I'm talking with wondering if this movement towards transhumanism actually [01:51:45] accomplishes that.

[01:51:45] louie: But with the great despair for a period of time of not being able to die and not being able to, or being stuck in the perpetual life of absolute despair of getting. You know, in theory what they [01:52:00] wanted, and in reality finding it was nothing that they really would've hoped for. And there's no fulfillment in that.

[01:52:06] louie: And that, uh, you know, even the, the Psalm talks about precious, on the side of the Lord is the death of his saints, where things are finally made right, where things are finally [01:52:15] made, made good. Uh, it's, I wasn't familiar with his name. There's, there's also a Brian Johnson, who's a very famous worship leader.

[01:52:25] louie: I was thinking, I didn't hear anything about him. Oh, but the name, okay, I know who you're talking about now. [01:52:30]

[01:52:30] daniel: I'm, I'm with y'all on this one. Um, when it comes to Brian Johnson, I think now I, the, the one, I always have something though, right? I always have something. But the, the one like caviar or the devil's advocates in my own opinion on that is sometimes [01:52:45] these, these people that kind of are, seem a little fanatical, they get us maybe even on accident to the next piece of information we didn't have.

[01:52:57] daniel: Um, that's nor it normally takes an out [01:53:00] layer like that to do something. And we might find a lot of data we get from all of his experiments he's doing on ourselves that help a lot of people. And I know that the Lord, um, doesn't, um, the, the Lord uses people in mysterious [01:53:15] ways and not everybody is good.

[01:53:16] daniel: But even then, he created them. He is, he created the past, the present, the future at all times. He's not susceptible to it. It's, it can't affect him anymore than what I write on. My paper can affect me right now. So, I don't know. Um, [01:53:30] I don't, I, I obviously don't think it's a good idea. It's pretty narciss.

[01:53:33] daniel: It's pretty, um, selfish to, to, to think that you could become immortal and it's probably not a helpful thing. And I certainly don't think scripture supports it at all until after the tribulation. Of course, when Jesus comes back and we live [01:53:45] for a thousand years,

[01:53:45] louie: you, a burning man happens 120 miles north of, of my city.

[01:53:50] louie: And so people start burning a couple days before and they're still burning a couple days after. And so I know of many church groups who this year were on [01:54:00] site at Burning Man, but it affects people who don't even go out there. And I, I'm a hundred percent apart. Uh, and four, if I get an opportunity for an interaction, I want to be able to be Jesus in the moment.

[01:54:12] louie: I wanna show up, to be able to be [01:54:15] present if I, if there's someone in need. Jesus was all about seeking and saving the lost. And so, you know, kind of looping back a couple minutes ago, you talked about Chris legs. You know, don't we want to make sure we keep Christian voices in this? I would, I'm a hundred percent [01:54:30] behind that, but I would also desire to try to be a part of that without being the advocate for, uh, for the psychedelics.

[01:54:41] louie: To say I'll be there. I'm not going to demonize or [01:54:45] cast stones at those that are a part of it. But I want, I, I want to be a consistent voice that, and a, and a humble enough to be able to learn if and when I'm wrong, because that happens. But also to know, uh, being a part of that, I'm not gonna put myself [01:55:00] and say, well, you know, there are, are are wanna keep the Christian voice in it, so I'm going to give myself a higher, you know, instead of my one, I'm gonna go a little bit higher.

[01:55:10] louie: It's like, I still wanna be a one at least at this point, but I want to, uh, [01:55:15] be always thinking Redemptively and because that's how, that's how my Jesus is. It's always redemptive. It's never, I'm sorry, this is my position. I'm stuck. No, I I'm with him and that's where I wanna be.

[01:55:25] cam: There's, I think there's also a difference between being involved in a [01:55:30] conversation and advocating for certain things.

[01:55:33] cam: So, for example, people always point to these, these places in the New Testament where, uh, you know, Jesus hangs out with tax collectors and prostitutes and you Right. He's down there in the mud with people and [01:55:45] that's true, but the message is always repent of your sins always. Right. He never sits down with prostitutes and says, you know, be sure you hand out condoms to all of your clients because we wanna reduce their risk of, of disease.

[01:55:57] cam: Right, right. That's never the message. The same [01:56:00] thing with Paul on his missionary journey, wherever he goes. Right. Repent of your sins. It's the same thing, uh, with Peter and Ax. Like this is always the message. You need to repent of your sins. And so I think that's the distinction that we have to keep is that yeah, if you, like, if you go [01:56:15] to Bernie, I've never been to Burning Man, that sounds like a horrifying experience, but, but I think there are people who are suited to minister in that setting, right?

[01:56:23] cam: So there's, I think there's this modern misconception that kindness means somehow enabling people's bad behavior [01:56:30] until they're ready to pick themselves up. That sort of approach, I think, I think that's wrong, right? So I can come here and say, I think drug use is destructive. I think it'll ruin your soul.

[01:56:39] cam: But I can also, you know, go buy food for the homeless guy outside the convenience store and I can buy diapers [01:56:45] for a young, uh, you know, a young group or young couple of parents who can't afford it, right? You can be kind and you can be loving, but you also have to tell people the truth. That's a fundamental part of it.

[01:56:54] cam: And I think that gets overlooked, um, because we're afraid of offending people.

[01:56:59] liza: And [01:57:00] people often equate truth with ju being judgemental. And I think that Christians often get told that they're so judgmental. And I think in my experience, Christians are, are not judgmental. They [01:57:15] just tell the truth. They say this is wrong, and people don't wanna hear that this is wrong.

[01:57:19] liza: And you may take your time and you may, but, but we're here for you. Um, and I think that that is what true empathy, uh, [01:57:30] is, is all about.

[01:57:31] daniel: So a lot of veterans with PTSD. Um, this isn't a virtue signal, but it's, it's, it's something central to me. Um, a lot of veterans with PTSD will get offered a lot of different [01:57:45] psychotropics, a lot of different of these superficial, um, substances that are gonna go straight to the, uh, you know, the, the receptors and, and then here you go.

[01:57:52] daniel: Here's your better emotion. And it makes me wonder, like the lack of research on [01:58:00] psilocybin and the success stories that we have, um, why is that not more researched and then, um, the, the, the quick change back to a normal functional life where they're, where they might be open up, [01:58:15] opened up to, to, to, to the church now.

[01:58:17] daniel: Or they might be opened up or, or they might be better for their families now. And the church didn't do that before on its own, but something in God's creation did. Um, just whether, what your thoughts are on that.

[01:58:29] Stephanie: It's my [01:58:30] understanding that there's more research on MDMA for PTSD in veterans

[01:58:34] liza: MDMA and, and ketamine.

[01:58:37] liza: Those are probably a little bit better research than, uh, psilocybin, although psilocybin has been researched in a couple of different, uh, ways that [01:58:45] are, are interesting. Um, at Hopkins, Johns Hopkins, they did a study on patients with terminal cancer who were highly, highly anxious and very, very, uh, worried about dying and things like that.

[01:58:56] liza: Um, and they found in this small study that, [01:59:00] um, once the patients had, uh, undergone this therapy that they were, had come to terms with death and were actually not as anxious about it. And that really was, I think, the catalyst for this new interest [01:59:15] in psychedelics. Um, or this resurgent is interest in in psychedelics.

[01:59:20] liza: Um, but, uh, MDMA and ketamine are both, um, being researched now. Now ketamine is, works a different way. [01:59:30] It does make you have hallucinations. Um, but it is a, a used in anesthesia. Um, and it's an actually very important. Anesthetic. Um, because if you're doing an emergent procedure where somebody's got a very painful [01:59:45] problem, um, you don't necessarily wanna make them stop breathing.

[01:59:49] liza: And a lot of the anesthetics that we use in the or, you really need respiratory support, um, or ventilation and things like that. And so with, um, ketamine, [02:00:00] you have the ability to do a short, uh, procedure that can keep people out of pain. But one of the side effects is that they have, uh, hallucinations and it for a great, uh, video to watch, [02:00:15] um, about this is, uh, go watch David after dentist.

[02:00:18] liza: It's a couple years old. Um, and it's a kid who's just undergone. And I think somebody was mentioning about, uh, being at the dentist and feeling loopy. You may have gotten ketamine, um, or, or [02:00:30] nitrous oxide too, but you may. But ketamine, um, makes people very, very, very loopy as they're, they're coming out of, um, uh, uh, the effects.

[02:00:39] liza: Now it's interesting because you've gotta be very careful using ketamine in people with psychotic disorders like [02:00:45] schizophrenia because they can have a very, very bad, um, outcome. But it's a really important, useful drug and you don't use it for the, um, high that people get. You use it to, uh, control pain [02:01:00] for, uh, a brief time and keep them breathing.

[02:01:03] liza: So it's very, very interesting drug from that perspective.

[02:01:06] Stephanie: So, um, I have been to Burning Man. I've been to all, all sorts of colorful places and, you [02:01:15] know, I'm sort of, I guess my moral to the story of today's conversation. Comes back to this idea that we, uh, seek God in mistaken ways because, uh, we are built with this hunger for something that is not [02:01:30] completely available on Earth.

[02:01:31] Stephanie: And I'll, I'll have to take to heart Louis, um, what you said about the levels of heaven. And that really connects the dots for me. That, that there are this, these tastes of heaven that we can get here on earth and that there are higher dimensions of heaven that [02:01:45] we hunger and thirst for. And so in my experience of going to places like Burning Man and music festivals and, um, my love of, of iCal, places on earth like Hawaii, where I go for healing and restoration [02:02:00] and my love of things like gardening and music, you know, it's that that taste of the sublime and that we can be mistaken in where we look and how we go about the pursuit of that.

[02:02:10] Stephanie: And I think one of the obstacles for me when I was younger to becoming a [02:02:15] Christian earlier is that, uh, and quite frankly, Christianity seemed boring and mainstream. And I thought the truth about God couldn't possibly be so popular and commonplace that, so that was my hubris getting in the way. It's like, haha jokes on me [02:02:30] actually.

[02:02:30] Stephanie: Like there's a bunch of Normies who you wrote off because they're not as interesting or colorful or whatever as you. And, and they actually, um, had the right idea about God. And actually God's not really playing hide and seek with us. He wants us to know him and, [02:02:45] and makes it rather accessible. But a part of my sort of, um, redemption or sanctification, I don't know how you would put it, uh, Louie, but the process I'm going through now is of figuring out how all these pieces of my life that [02:03:00] came before fit in with being a Christian now.

[02:03:02] Stephanie: And the latest thing that I'm really excited about is returning to devotional music because one of the places that I looked for God when I was younger was Indian devotional music. Um, and Christianity didn't seem to offer [02:03:15] anything like the type of music that I was drawn to. And plus the, just the, the sound of Sanskrit itself, the ability to get completely out of my native tongue of English, which has all of these associations, and use a language that was just supposed to be about [02:03:30] God plus the, the rhythms, the melodies, the uh, call and response experience, all of that played a huge role in my young life's searching for God, but eventually fell away because it wasn't my culture and it wasn't my religion.

[02:03:43] Stephanie: And, uh, [02:03:45] you know, eventually I just got to a point where I didn't know what I believed, but I missed the role in my life that those experiences of coming together provided in my experience. I didn't know that churches ever offered any kind of devotional music that was on that kind of level. I thought at the church devotional music is [02:04:00] kind of, again, mainstream and, you know, it's designed for everyone to be able to sing along.

[02:04:04] Stephanie: So of course it has to be simple. But what has come to me recently is. A return to devotional music and including some of those Indian influences from my past, and [02:04:15] including some of the sort of eclectic and folk influences of some of my current favorite devotional musicians. Um, so that's really exciting for me to think about what would it look like to, um, bring some of the pieces that I missed from that early [02:04:30] exploration, like the house parties where everyone is singing along together and it's a warm and inviting atmosphere.

[02:04:35] Stephanie: And, um, you know, we're doing the call and response thing and we're jamming. And I, I realize like, if there's something in the world, and, and maybe this is like just being a high agency [02:04:45] person, right? You see there's something in the world that you're like, that really ought to exist. And it's like, oh, oh, that's my job.

[02:04:50] Stephanie: I, I am, I'm gonna have to create it. So I just wanted to share, uh, that little anecdote from my life and, um, begin to wrap things up here. I wanna [02:05:00] respect your time and appreciate everyone for being willing to go over today. I know there's so much more to be said, but I just wanna give everyone a couple minutes to share whatever your final thoughts are.

[02:05:09] Stephanie: I'm sure there's, you know, maybe things you wanted to put a cap on or revisit from earlier in the conversation. [02:05:15] So, um, we'll just do one more round in the same order that we began with, if that's okay with everyone starting with Louie.

[02:05:20] louie: Sure. And, uh, I, I have appreciated being able to sit with each one of you as a part of this discussion and for me, uh, [02:05:30] it can sound, you know.

[02:05:32] louie: Extreme to say, well, I'm a one and I wanna dig my feet in and, and really make sure people know this is a, i, I see it as something that's to be avoided at all costs. [02:05:45] My heart is ideally bent towards, always towards redemption, because I know how much I have and still need that redemption and sanctification process for me.

[02:05:57] louie: Uh, I'm a teacher by, by [02:06:00] gifting, and therefore I'm always gathering information and always encouraging people to be pursuing that. And at the same time, there's also those, those mentors who in my life have helped me grow by leaps and bounds, [02:06:15] by saying, this is a road that I have been down, or I have seen people go down and this is where it ends up and this is why I would wanna avoid it.

[02:06:23] louie: And so, uh, I definitely in, in saying, you know, in approaching psychedelics [02:06:30] with for Christians, uh, it can sound very dogmatic and we'll just, we're afraid of that sort of thing, this neck of the woods. Uh, we don't do that here. Uh, that's not the heart. The heart would be, I believe God's got a better way. I [02:06:45] believe he's got a desire to bring healing to us, and he wants us to come through him and to avoid the.

[02:06:54] louie: The potential trap of going through things that would come with the hook or [02:07:00] come with that exchange that is gonna cost us more. And so I've again appreciated hearing from each one of you, your perspectives. And, uh, my prayer is that as these round tables can continue, that there's, there's continued [02:07:15] forward growth and even more to be more informed on the how to communicate that one, uh, to people as I, as I'm talking about it, but also thinking, you know, I'm so thankful for God's shepherding heart and his not [02:07:30] wasting our experiences, not wasting the things we've gone through, but somehow taking that which was meant for evil and turning it for his good, for our good and for his glory.

[02:07:39] louie: So,

[02:07:39] Stephanie: amen. Cam closing thoughts?

[02:07:41] cam: Yeah, I, I'll just follow up on something you said a minute ago about, uh, [02:07:45] you know, the truth about God. I think you said pedestrian maybe was the word you used that kind of surprised you that, that God would just be so normal. Like our normal experiences would be where the truth wise.

[02:07:56] cam: Um, and I think what I've found is that it's those [02:08:00] everyday experiences that, that are so like they so confirm my faith. So for example, on a recent episode of our podcast, Lizza and I were talking about, um, some research into ketamine. That's that, you know, 18 people study she mentioned, and I just [02:08:15] mentioned in passing that.

[02:08:18] cam: Having a dance party with my daughter, who's 18 months old, will put on, put on something on YouTube and she just, she hears the music and she gets down, she gets into it, and it is, and I think I said something like [02:08:30] that will kill any sadness in you more effectively than any drug or any experience. Right.

[02:08:36] cam: So it's like sitting down with my, with my kids, sit with my family. My wife and I have two kids. Like we sit down and we share a meal together. And just watching my kids [02:08:45] interact with the world and learn to use language, it's such a powerful experience and it's so fulfilling. And I think it's not happiness.

[02:08:52] cam: I think that's a really elusive concept. We're never gonna be happy in this life and the way most people understand it, but [02:09:00] it's those experiences with my children or going to church on Sunday and singing the Psalms with, with everyone else in the church. It's like you're, I'm like, you're completely sober.

[02:09:08] cam: The lights are on. There's no fog machines, there's no rocking guitar solo. It's just us singing. But it's [02:09:15] moving. There's something about that that's unique. And I think that's because, and I think, I think, Stephanie, you said this, we're designed to worship. Right? That's what we're built for. And so it's these everyday common experiences that actually fulfill our natures.

[02:09:27] cam: Like when we live that way, when we live the way that [02:09:30] God commands us to live, things work out and we still struggle and there's still pain in this life. That's just part of it. The Bible makes that clear, but that's where the fulfillment lies. It's there like, there's no perfect combination of drugs or, you know, the, the right kind of [02:09:45] party or the right kind of vacation or whatever.

[02:09:47] cam: You know, those things are all, well, not all those things, right? But vacation's fine. You know, if you need to take opioids for a surgery or something, that's fine, but I think ultimately it's living the right way and it's not some grand, [02:10:00] magical experience that's gonna, that's gonna fix us. So I would just land there.

[02:10:03] cam: And thank you all for this, this conversation. This has been great.

[02:10:06] Stephanie: Beautiful. Thank you, Daniel.

[02:10:09] daniel: Uh, just to keep building off of what, uh, people have been saying. Um, uh, absolutely. [02:10:15] It's, I don't think any psychedelic is gonna somehow cure something. Um, I think we're supposed to experience what we're supposed to experience and that's, and that's gonna help us grow.

[02:10:25] daniel: Um. You're, you're absolutely right. Living and enjoying life as it [02:10:30] is, is, is where we should be getting our dopamine. Not from other, not from processed sugar, not from this or that. The other thing, now, if you need, and I agree too, if you need a medicine and it's gonna work for that, okay. Um, that's, I guess up [02:10:45] to you and your doctor's opinion on that.

[02:10:47] daniel: Um, I de definitely, definitely don't wanna promote at all any illicit use of any drugs, um, including processed sugar because you don't need that to live and it's, it alters your mood as well. But I'm [02:11:00] sitting here drinking caffeine, so I'm a hypocrite.

[02:11:02] Stephanie: Well, me and my, uh, fellow Ray Pete aficionados would beg to differ, but that's a different conversation.

[02:11:09] Stephanie: Alright, and finally, Liza.

[02:11:11] liza: Yeah. I think that people over the past several [02:11:15] decades have put a hard, uh, a hard wall between religion and science as if they're mutually exclusive. And, um, I don't think they are at all. As long as you're in pursuit of the truth in both of those things, um, they can't, they, they [02:11:30] can, um, actually, uh, be really, really reinforcing of each other.

[02:11:34] liza: In fact, the more I learn about science, the more it, it, it bolsters my faith. Um, and in ordinary things. Sometimes people, you know, a lot of people think science is boring. A lot of people think religion is [02:11:45] boring. But once again, this is, this is really, uh, foundational to my faith. I think that, uh. I actually probably came back to my faith because of the science that I've learned.

[02:11:57] liza: Um, I've also realized, uh, [02:12:00] how much science is being taken and twisted. Um, and, and it's being proposed as truth. And to me that's, that's really, um, difficult, especially when people don't have a scientific background and they're sold [02:12:15] into, you know, believing, um, things that are very problematic and wind up being harmful.

[02:12:19] liza: And I don't want the psychedelic discussion to go in that direction, right? I don't want people to be oversold on this as a treatment, but I do think [02:12:30] that, um, if there is some scientific, uh, truth and benefit to it and it doesn't wind up, um, compromising, um, your faith, um, I think that it could, there could be some good that comes outta it.

[02:12:42] Stephanie: Alright, we'll do one more quick round just for [02:12:45] everyone to share where listeners can find you. Louis.

[02:12:47] louie: Yeah, you can find me on Twitter, usually tweeting, uh, or XI guess you would call it now, uh, about the San Francisco 49 ERs and San Francisco Giants. And then, uh, also wading [02:13:00] into, uh, various groups that I've been a part of, um, at sco d dot or at sco eed Uh, our church website is hillside four.org, if you are so inclined to check that out.

[02:13:14] Stephanie: Great. Ken, [02:13:15]

[02:13:15] cam: I'm on X as well. Uh, my handle is at Cam J English. Uh, Liza and I do a podcast weekly. It's called The Facts and Fallacies Podcast. And then you can find my, my writing@acsh.org, which is the American Council on Science and Health. [02:13:30]

[02:13:30] Stephanie: Thanks, Daniel.

[02:13:31] daniel: Uh, you can find me on X. My handle is Olaf the third, and, um, my website is mad river.org.

[02:13:40] Stephanie: And Liza,

[02:13:41] liza: Yeah, you can find me on at Dr. Liza md. Um, I'm [02:13:45] on LinkedIn as well. Um, Liza Lockwood. And then, uh, cam and I and John anty all do a space, uh, every Thursday as well, where we talk about all sorts of different, um, uh, scientific and topical, [02:14:00] uh, subjects. Uh, it goes about from four to 6:00 PM Um.

[02:14:05] liza: Central time. So we'd love to have you join us and if you're interested in talking about anything with science and faith together, that'd be great. We'd love to have you on the uh, space. [02:14:15]

[02:14:15] Stephanie: Well, thank you all for an excellent first edition of the psychedelics

[02:14:20] Stephanie: and Christianity round table. It's been a pleasure.

[02:14:24] Stephanie: Thank you for listening to you Must Be some kind of therapist. If you enjoyed [02:14:30] this episode. Kindly take a moment to rate, review, share or comment on it using your platform of choice. And of course, please remember. Podcasts are not therapy and I'm not your therapist. Special thanks to Joey [02:14:45] Rero for this awesome theme song, half Awake and to Pods by Nick for production.

[02:14:51] Stephanie: For help navigating the impact of the gender craze on your family, be sure to check out my program for parents, our OGD Repair. [02:15:00] Any resource you heard mentioned on this show plus how to get in touch with me can all be found in the notes and links below rain or shine. I hope you will step outside to breathe the air today in [02:15:15] the words of Max Airman.

[02:15:16] Stephanie: With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful [02:15:30] [02:15:45] world.